Re: [liberationtech] Defund Domestic Spying
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 12:14:59AM +0100, Caspar Bowden (lists) wrote: >So the spying on the rest-of-the-world's data sent to the US, including >"information with respect to a foreign-based political organization or >foreign territory that relates to the conduct of the foreign affairs of >the United States", that's totally fine is it? When the US domestic spying >problem is fixed everyone can go home... > >(slide 5) > > https://sigint.ccc.de/schedule/system/attachments/2068/original/How_to_wiretap_the_Cloud_without_anybody_noticing_-_SIGINT_7.7.2013.pdf > I do hope it's obvious that, no it's not totally fine -- as EFF, along with many other groups around the world, has attempted to document, not least by citing Caspar's excellent and ceaseless work on this over the last few years: Spies Without Borders https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/spy-without-borders Using Domestic Networks to Spy on the World https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/spies-without-borders-i-using-domestic-networks-spy-world U.S. Foreign Intelligence: From Carte Blanche Surveillance to Weak [Domestic] Protections https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/foreign-surveillance-history-privacy-erosions-spy-world An International Perspective on FISA: No Protections, Little Oversight https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/foreign-surveillance-post-911-using-domestic-networks-spy-world-legal-perspective Universal, Self-Evident: I'm Not American but I Have Privacy Rights too, NSA https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/world-us-congress-im-not-american-i-have-privacy-rights Spying on the World From Domestic Soil - International Backlash https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/spying-world-domestic-soil Global Dialogue on Governmental Extra-Territorial Surveillance https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/call-global-dialogue-principles-cross-border-surveillance-and-korean-prism Right now, I'm party try to eke out some part of a long-term strategy that could embody into US law the privacy rights of the billions of 51%+ non-US persons not resident in the US, and thus affected by FISA. (This is separate from the infrastructural and technical changes we could work toward which would make this kind of surveillance impracticable). One thing I think that would help would be the creation of other examples of substantive current administrative or statutory controls (ie not international human rights declarations with currently little operational weight) on the domestic interception of foreign targets for law enforcement or national security purposes. About the closest we might have the upcoming Data Protection Regulation COM(2012)0010 (See EDRi's http://policingprivacy.eu/ )on the processing of data for the purposes of law enforcement, which is always a bit of a rollercoaster in scope and intent. Whereas' (14) The protection afforded by this Directive should concern natural persons, whatever their nationality or place of residence, in relation to the processing of personal data. Hooray! And yet... (15) ...This Directive should not apply to the processing of personal data in the course of an activity which falls outside the scope of Union law, in particular concerning national security, or to data processed by the Union institutions, bodies, offices and agencies, such as Europol or Eurojust. What tools do European or other politicians have to push back against their own or others surveillance infrastructure. How might we push a decision up the ECHR that would have a direct effect on this? d. >CB > >On 07/23/13 23:56, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > > To any U.S. citizens out there, this might be a good time to act: > > > https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/07/tomorrow-congress-votes-amendment-defund-spying-heres-how-you-can-help > > -Jonathan > -- > Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by > emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at > https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech > -- > Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by > emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at > https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- International Director, EFF | +1 415 436 9333 x150 | 815 Eddy Street, SF, CA 94109 -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] Defund Domestic Spying
On 07/24/13 00:28, Kyle Maxwell wrote: NB: please do not interpret any of the following as a personal endorsement of the status quo. OK See, here's the thing. You have to recognize political realities here, and the realities are such that the political will does not exist right now to re-examine how intelligence services perform their function in foreign countries. That is, after all, why they exist. True that acquisition of intelligence outside territorial borders has always been literally lawless for every state, but the issue of PRISM/702 is that this is data which has been sent to the US (or technically anything in range of its extraterritorial jurisdiction also - but the practical risk is less). And EU policymakers have allowed themselves to be deceived that this was somehow "protected" - and it's not General Michael Hayden, former director of the NSA and CIA, said recently: "You’ve got a bunch of countries in Europe hyperventilating about America’s foreign intelligence operations. But the truth is that all nations conduct espionage. Nobody has claimed that America’s Bill of Rights, which protects the individual privacy of our citizens, was a global treaty. The funny thing is that at past interntatiuonal conferences of privacy commisisoners, US give representatives used to make speeches which were paeans in praise of the Fourth Amendment with the clear implication that these are somehow relevant to the rest-of-the-world, up until 2011 anyhow No one can claim that these nations aren’t doing similar things against America and many others. Doing what exactly? Spying on Americans' data _for purely political_ purposes is totally illegal under European human rights law. The converse is not true. How much US data is sitting on EU servers anyhow? If some countries do have a legitimate compliant about our espionage activities, it’s frankly because we are just better at it than they are." ..or maybe the US just doesn't recognize foreigners have any privacy rights, and has more opportunity... (ref: http://www.afr.com/p/national/transcript_interview_with_former_KnS7JDIrw73GWlljxA7vdK) This is the political reality in the US right now: the scandal is not that the NSA is fulfilling its chartered mission of collecting SIGINT on national security threats. At the risk of oversimplifying, the scandal is that the *Foreign* Intelligence Surveillance Act is being used for *domestic* surveillance. Yup. That is the agenda. Europeans and other "foreign persons" who are concerned that the United States government spies on them will likely need to look for remedies other than US law. Agreed. Or exert sufficient diplomatic and economic pressure (i.e. embargoes on US companies) until that law changes CB -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] Defund Domestic Spying
NB: please do not interpret any of the following as a personal endorsement of the status quo. See, here's the thing. You have to recognize political realities here, and the realities are such that the political will does not exist right now to re-examine how intelligence services perform their function in foreign countries. That is, after all, why they exist. General Michael Hayden, former director of the NSA and CIA, said recently: "You’ve got a bunch of countries in Europe hyperventilating about America’s foreign intelligence operations. But the truth is that all nations conduct espionage. Nobody has claimed that America’s Bill of Rights, which protects the individual privacy of our citizens, was a global treaty. No one can claim that these nations aren’t doing similar things against America and many others. If some countries do have a legitimate compliant about our espionage activities, it’s frankly because we are just better at it than they are." (ref: http://www.afr.com/p/national/transcript_interview_with_former_KnS7JDIrw73GWlljxA7vdK) This is the political reality in the US right now: the scandal is not that the NSA is fulfilling its chartered mission of collecting SIGINT on national security threats. At the risk of oversimplifying, the scandal is that the *Foreign* Intelligence Surveillance Act is being used for *domestic* surveillance. Europeans and other "foreign persons" who are concerned that the United States government spies on them will likely need to look for remedies other than US law. On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:14 PM, Caspar Bowden (lists) wrote: > So the spying on the rest-of-the-world's data sent to the US, including > "information with respect to a foreign-based political organization or > foreign territory that relates to the conduct of the foreign affairs of the > United States", that's totally fine is it? When the US domestic spying > problem is fixed everyone can go home... > > (slide 5) > https://sigint.ccc.de/schedule/system/attachments/2068/original/How_to_wiretap_the_Cloud_without_anybody_noticing_-_SIGINT_7.7.2013.pdf > > CB > > > On 07/23/13 23:56, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: > > To any U.S. citizens out there, this might be a good time to act: > > https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/07/tomorrow-congress-votes-amendment-defund-spying-heres-how-you-can-help > > -Jonathan > -- > Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by > emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at > https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech > > > > -- > Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by > emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at > https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] Defund Domestic Spying
So the spying on the rest-of-the-world's data sent to the US, including "information with respect to a foreign-based political organization _or_ foreign territory that _relates_ to the _conduct of the foreign affairs_ of the United States", that's totally fine is it? When the US domestic spying problem is fixed everyone can go home... (slide 5) https://sigint.ccc.de/schedule/system/attachments/2068/original/How_to_wiretap_the_Cloud_without_anybody_noticing_-_SIGINT_7.7.2013.pdf CB On 07/23/13 23:56, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: To any U.S. citizens out there, this might be a good time to act: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/07/tomorrow-congress-votes-amendment-defund-spying-heres-how-you-can-help -Jonathan -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
[liberationtech] Defund Domestic Spying
To any U.S. citizens out there, this might be a good time to act: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/07/tomorrow-congress-votes-amendment-defund-spying-heres-how-you-can-help -Jonathan -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
