Re: [liberationtech] What should the liberation tech response be to ISIS-related recruiting online?
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015, 06:18 carlo von lynX l...@time.to.get.psyced.org wrote: On Wed, Jul 01, 2015 at 06:00:08PM +, Sean Lynch wrote: I don't think it's possible to simultaneously enable people to exercise freedom of speech on the Internet while preventing the use of the net for things we don't agree with. Recruiting for ISIS is just speech, and any tools that would enable governments to stop that would also enable them to stop other kinds of speech they find inconvenient. I have two suggestions to make to handle recruitment and abuse of suicidal radicalized persons: 1. Improve the web to better provide a rational debate on all the issues rather than creating rhethorical bubbles where the analysis of how evil capitalism and the west have become is put in perspective where possible and where the consequences of suggested action are especially refuted - just because the world is evil doesn't entitle you to make it even worse. Currently discussion platforms on the web which are suited for rational debate rather than populistic blabber are hard to find. 2. Take the criticism seriously. The capitalist west *is* destroying the foundations of human life on planet Earth. As long as there is no credible political effort to fix this, we cannot expect frustrated youth not to radicalize against the status quo. Had we proper democracy, the problem would probably not manifest itself: - Yes, the recruiters would enjoy Secrecy of Correspondence enabling them to recruit without governments watching. - But, opposing political movements would not be impeded to form, therefore political change would already be happening. - Thus if we had proper democracy we would already have fixed wealth distribution and economic/ecologic sustainability instead of wondering how it is possible that although 99,9% of Earth population want things differently, the leading 0,1% continue to do as they please. - Therefore the recruiters would not find anyone to recruit for stupid kamikaze action happenings. In other words, terrorism is a problem caused by lack of democracy. The solution is to fix democracy. While we would probably disagree on some of the details, I definitely agree with the overall sentiment that the best way do deal with bad uses of the Internet is to create and improve tools that encourage good uses, especially uses that improve society. In particular, new and better ways to measure the effectiveness of policies and interventions would be invaluable. -- Liberationtech is public archives are searchable on Google. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu.
Re: [liberationtech] What should the liberation tech response be to ISIS-related recruiting online?
On 02.07.2015 15:18, carlo von lynX wrote: - Yes, the recruiters would enjoy Secrecy of Correspondence enabling them to recruit without governments watching. I guess young persons in these nations are subject to the same sort of recruitment for Western ideas. In Hegelian model of Geist we have to acknowledge that these ideas and efforts exist. We are partisan in this conflict. --- A -- Liberationtech is public archives are searchable on Google. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu.
Re: [liberationtech] What should the liberation tech response be to ISIS-related recruiting online?
I agree with Carlo in princile 100%, although not quite on his optimism - maybe out of ignorance, since it is hard for me to visualize what he means by discussion platforms on the web which are suited for rational debate rather than populistic blabber... So far, I've seen double-edged swords all over, nothing else (that is, rational debate and populistic blabber happening on the same platforms simultaneously, and sometimes interleaved even on discussion threads themselves!)... On a side note, it seems the term democracy is, like, a pure abstract virtual class! :D So there's always a core dump when it tries to instantiate itself! :D As far as terrorism is concerned, the opposite is almost true: it's been around since the beginning of human race, as a tactic for cornered dissenters. So we should put it in perspective - reading some of the stuff on this topic (not Carlo's post, fer sure!) one would think it was born in the second half of the XXth century at the earliest! Best Regards | Cordiales Saludos | Grato, Andrés L. Pacheco Sanfuentes a...@acm.org +1 (347) 766-5008 On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 8:18 AM, carlo von lynX l...@time.to.get.psyced.org wrote: On Wed, Jul 01, 2015 at 06:00:08PM +, Sean Lynch wrote: I don't think it's possible to simultaneously enable people to exercise freedom of speech on the Internet while preventing the use of the net for things we don't agree with. Recruiting for ISIS is just speech, and any tools that would enable governments to stop that would also enable them to stop other kinds of speech they find inconvenient. I have two suggestions to make to handle recruitment and abuse of suicidal radicalized persons: 1. Improve the web to better provide a rational debate on all the issues rather than creating rhethorical bubbles where the analysis of how evil capitalism and the west have become is put in perspective where possible and where the consequences of suggested action are especially refuted - just because the world is evil doesn't entitle you to make it even worse. Currently discussion platforms on the web which are suited for rational debate rather than populistic blabber are hard to find. 2. Take the criticism seriously. The capitalist west *is* destroying the foundations of human life on planet Earth. As long as there is no credible political effort to fix this, we cannot expect frustrated youth not to radicalize against the status quo. Had we proper democracy, the problem would probably not manifest itself: - Yes, the recruiters would enjoy Secrecy of Correspondence enabling them to recruit without governments watching. - But, opposing political movements would not be impeded to form, therefore political change would already be happening. - Thus if we had proper democracy we would already have fixed wealth distribution and economic/ecologic sustainability instead of wondering how it is possible that although 99,9% of Earth population want things differently, the leading 0,1% continue to do as they please. - Therefore the recruiters would not find anyone to recruit for stupid kamikaze action happenings. In other words, terrorism is a problem caused by lack of democracy. The solution is to fix democracy. -- E-mail is public! Talk to me in private using encryption: http://loupsycedyglgamf.onion/LynX/ irc://loupsycedyglgamf.onion:67/lynX https://psyced.org:34443/LynX/ -- Liberationtech is public archives are searchable on Google. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu. -- Liberationtech is public archives are searchable on Google. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu.
Re: [liberationtech] What should the liberation tech response be to ISIS-related recruiting online?
Are you, or have you ever been, associated with the Communist Party? When questions of speech and association become poisoned litmus tests, regardless of the apparent profile of the target in contemporary media and current events, it is a disease of the times. Rights must always be held paramount, and perspective be broad, not narrowed or special cases made. Tools are tools. We make them for better engagement and association, for organizing. If our government finds that fringe cases are more passionate in their causes than our general electorate -- perhaps they need to invest in growing the civic passion of the average adult and especially our children. yrs, Shava Nerad shav...@gmail.com (Well practiced on this one heh) On Jul 1, 2015 9:53 AM, Steven Clift cl...@e-democracy.org wrote: Any reactions to this NYTimes article? ISIS and the Lonely Young American By RUKMINI CALLIMACHIJUNE 27, 2015 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/world/americas/isis-online-recruiting-american.html?_r=0 What responsibilities emerge and how do they balance with freedoms and rights we aspire to see online being used essentially for very bad things. Steven Clift - Executive Director, E-Democracy.org cl...@e-democracy.org - +1.612.234.7072 @democracy - http://linkedin.com/in/netclift E-Democracy can help: http://e-democracy.org/services -- Liberationtech is public archives are searchable on Google. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu. -- Liberationtech is public archives are searchable on Google. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu.
Re: [liberationtech] What should the liberation tech response be to ISIS-related recruiting online?
I bet that for every ISIS online recruiting posting there are zillions of white supremacist and other U.S. domestic hate groups, as the Southern Poverty Law Center tries to document: Currently, there are 784 known hate groups operating across the country, including neo-Nazis, Klansmen, white nationalists, neo-Confederates, racist skinheads, black separatists, border vigilantes and others. http://www.splcenter.org/what-we-do/hate-and-extremism So, this is just and yet another diversion of US media and government from human rights issues right here right now, in the name of the sacred cow of oilgas, IMNSHO ROTFLMFAO On Jul 2, 2015, at 1:08 PM, Shava Nerad shav...@gmail.com wrote: Are you, or have you ever been, associated with the Communist Party? When questions of speech and association become poisoned litmus tests, regardless of the apparent profile of the target in contemporary media and current events, it is a disease of the times. Rights must always be held paramount, and perspective be broad, not narrowed or special cases made. Tools are tools. We make them for better engagement and association, for organizing. If our government finds that fringe cases are more passionate in their causes than our general electorate -- perhaps they need to invest in growing the civic passion of the average adult and especially our children. yrs, Shava Nerad shav...@gmail.com (Well practiced on this one heh) On Jul 1, 2015 9:53 AM, Steven Clift cl...@e-democracy.org wrote: Any reactions to this NYTimes article? ISIS and the Lonely Young American By RUKMINI CALLIMACHIJUNE 27, 2015 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/world/americas/isis-online-recruiting-american.html?_r=0 What responsibilities emerge and how do they balance with freedoms and rights we aspire to see online being used essentially for very bad things. Steven Clift - Executive Director, E-Democracy.org cl...@e-democracy.org - +1.612.234.7072 @democracy - http://linkedin.com/in/netclift E-Democracy can help: http://e-democracy.org/services -- Liberationtech is public archives are searchable on Google. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu. -- Liberationtech is public archives are searchable on Google. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu. -- Liberationtech is public archives are searchable on Google. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu.
Re: [liberationtech] What should the liberation tech response be to ISIS-related recruiting online?
Hi -- these folk http://www.affinislabs.com/founders.html seem to be up to something http://www.haqqathon.com/. Anyone else have similar examples of CVE https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/01/11/statement-press-secretary-white-house-summit-countering-violent-extremis tech startups/hackathons? -muzammil -- Dr. Muzammil M. Hussain | mmhussain.net http://www.mmhussain.net/ *Assistant Professor*, Department of Communication Studies | LSA https://lsa.umich.edu/ *Faculty Associate*, Center for Political Studies | ISR http://home.isr.umich.edu/ The University of Michigan | Ann Arbor http://www.umich.edu/ *Visiting Scholar, University of Cambridge *(Digital Humanities Strategic Network | CRASSH http://www.crassh.cam.ac.uk/) *Visiting Scholar, University of Oxford *(Comparative Media Law Policy Program | CSLS http://www.csls.ox.ac.uk/) *Completed projects:* - *Democracy's Fourth Wave? Digital Media and the Arab Spring* (Oxford University Press https://global.oup.com/academic/product/democracys-fourth-wave-9780199936977?cc=gblang=en; ) - *State Power 2.0: Authoritarian Entrenchment and Political Engagement Worldwide* (Ashgate Publishing http://www.ashgate.com/isbn/9781409454694) On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Steven Clift cl...@e-democracy.org wrote: Any reactions to this NYTimes article? ISIS and the Lonely Young American By RUKMINI CALLIMACHIJUNE 27, 2015 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/world/americas/isis-online-recruiting-american.html?_r=0 What responsibilities emerge and how do they balance with freedoms and rights we aspire to see online being used essentially for very bad things. Steven Clift - Executive Director, E-Democracy.org cl...@e-democracy.org - +1.612.234.7072 @democracy - http://linkedin.com/in/netclift E-Democracy can help: http://e-democracy.org/services -- Liberationtech is public archives are searchable on Google. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu. -- Liberationtech is public archives are searchable on Google. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu.
Re: [liberationtech] What should the liberation tech response be to ISIS-related recruiting online?
On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 6:53 AM Steven Clift cl...@e-democracy.org wrote: Any reactions to this NYTimes article? ISIS and the Lonely Young American By RUKMINI CALLIMACHIJUNE 27, 2015 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/world/americas/isis-online-recruiting-american.html?_r=0 What responsibilities emerge and how do they balance with freedoms and rights we aspire to see online being used essentially for very bad things. I don't think it's possible to simultaneously enable people to exercise freedom of speech on the Internet while preventing the use of the net for things we don't agree with. Recruiting for ISIS is just speech, and any tools that would enable governments to stop that would also enable them to stop other kinds of speech they find inconvenient. But ISIS recruiting is sort of a softball question. How about things where the speech itself is harmful, like kiddie porn, dox, etc? How do we enable governments to stop those without also enabling them to stop other kinds of communication they find inconvenient? I have not yet been able to think of a way, and I'm not even sure it's possible. At least for kiddie porn you could theoretically go after the production, but for dox? You can get search engines to take down links, but you cannot stop determined people from finding them. Of course, a lot of the damage from dox, like with revenge porn, comes from their easily accessible nature, so maybe that's sufficient? So maybe for all of these things there is either a physical world crime you can go after or a way to mitigate the damage with cooperation from major search engines. The search engine response is also self-limiting: if a search engine is sufficiently corrupted by regulators, people will just find smaller search engines that are less apt to cooperate with authoritarian regimes. -- Liberationtech is public archives are searchable on Google. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu.
[liberationtech] What should the liberation tech response be to ISIS-related recruiting online?
Any reactions to this NYTimes article? ISIS and the Lonely Young American By RUKMINI CALLIMACHIJUNE 27, 2015 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/world/americas/isis-online-recruiting-american.html?_r=0 What responsibilities emerge and how do they balance with freedoms and rights we aspire to see online being used essentially for very bad things. Steven Clift - Executive Director, E-Democracy.org cl...@e-democracy.org - +1.612.234.7072 @democracy - http://linkedin.com/in/netclift E-Democracy can help: http://e-democracy.org/services -- Liberationtech is public archives are searchable on Google. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech. Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu.
