Re: [liberationtech] NSA, FBI, Verizon caught red handed spying on US citizens in the US
Resurrecting an old thread here to make a point about the question, To what extent are US GOV foreign policy decision-makers monolithic or fractured? Sometimes history offers a good window into thinking about these things. For example, JFK losing control over Vietnam policy, just as he was almost drawn into Cuba via the CIA-sponsored Bay of Pigs machinations. From the book JFK and the Unspeakable by James W. Douglass, p. 192 of my paperback copy... CAVEAT: Douglass apotheosizes JFK a bit too much, but hey. === Kennedy was losing control of his government. In early September [1963], he discovered that another key decision related to a coup [in South Vietnam] had been made without his knowledge. A White House meeting with the president was discussing whether or not to cut off the Commodity Import Program that propped up South Vietnam's economy. It was a far-reaching decision. For the United States to withdraw the AID program could prompt a coup against Diem. David Bell, head of AID, made a casual comment that stopped the discussion. He said, There's no point in talking about cutting off commodity aid. I've already cut it off. You've done what? said John Kennedy. Cut off commodity aid, said Bell. Who the hell told you to do that? asked the president. No one, said Bell. It's an automatic policy. We do it whenever we have differences with a client government. Kennedy shook his head in dismay. My God, do you know what you've done? said the president. He was staring at David Bell, but seeing a deeper reality. Kennedy knew Bell's agency, AID, functioned as a CIA front. AID administrator David Bell would not have carried out his automatic cutoff without CIA approval. We do it whenever we have differences with a client government could serve as a statement of CIA policy. By cutting South Vietnam's purse strings, the CIA was sending a message to its upstart client ruler, Diem, as well as the plotting generals waiting in the wings for such a signal. Most of all, the message was meant for the man staring at David Bell in disbelief. He was being told who was in control. It was not the president. === Maybe the question of monolithic vs fractured is also a relative one...depends where you're sitting and what your aims are. Can't resist plugging myself: in a week or two WhoWhatWhy.com will be publishing Part 1 of a 3-part series I'm writing using the WikiLeaks cache of Stratfor memos -- the series will show some quarreling over foreign policy between a US agency and the NSC. Douglas Twitter: @douglaslucas On 06/06/2013 12:48 PM, Kyle Maxwell wrote: No, it's really not - there are parts of the US gov (and VZ - I work there and I feel the same way about all this as anyone here) that oppose this type of blanket surveillance of an entire society. And if you think everyone in the government is monolithic about foreign policy, well, then there's a lot more reading you should probably do. I wish it were a little *more* fractured, personally, to avoid some of the more egregious bits we've seen over the last couple of centuries, but just because a side wins doesn't mean everyone is on board. On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Andrés Leopoldo Pacheco Sanfuentes alps6...@gmail.com wrote: Well, of course! I couldn't agree more with the underlying beliefs of Shava Nerad. BUT Government IS MONOLITHIC when it comes to FOREIGN POLICY ACTIONS, and INTERNAL SURVEILLANCE OF ITS OWN CITIZENS. There's no grey area in a WAR, there's no grey area in the FISA memo leaked, there's no grey area in the NSA and FBI's Directives from the Executive Branch. The US Buck stops at Obama, Obama is to blame for this crap, in the same fashion, for example, that the Turkish PM is to blame for the repressive atrocities in response to peaceful protests by turkuaz people. That doesn't stop the rest of us to celebrate FESTIVUS and keep on pounding at all those individuals and then some more that Shava Nerad points out. Best Regards | Cordiales Saludos | Grato, Andrés L. Pacheco Sanfuentes a...@acm.org +1 (817) 271-9619 On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Shava Nerad shav...@gmail.com wrote: The US government -- nor most any government, I imagine (certainly any democracy) -- is not monolithic. It represents a great struggle of policy arguments and internally is more like a mass of mating snakes than a monolithic front. To say that because the NSA is spying on citizens invalidates any voice the US may have is a bit odd. Jake and I are US citizens, activists, and I am a former State Democratic Committee member. Jake's day job is partly government funded by parts of .gov that are in fact in open conflict with DHS policies domestically. It's no secret that there are conflicts between the policies set by different branches of the US government. WE ARE NOT A DICTATORSHIP. Yet. Someone last week told me with some heat that my former position as a Democratic Party operative means I am the sort of person
Re: [liberationtech] NSA, FBI, Verizon caught red handed spying on US citizens in the US
Anthony Papillion writes: It's up to us to protect ourselves and, thankfully, we have the technology to do just that. (As I suggested in a previous message, I strongly support greater use of privacy-enhancing technologies, and finding tactics to increase the demand for them.) I think it's become clear that traffic and location data is much harder to protect technologically than content. Advocates for privacy-enhancing technology sometimes don't appreciate or don't effectively communicate the scope of this problem. I've seen a lot of people in the last day or so referring to the need to encrypt everything. Encrypting everything is surely of tremendous benefit for privacy, but in low-latency packet-switched networks, it has no effect at all on the ability to perform traffic analysis. In order to get networks that we don't control to deliver our communications to the parties we choose, we have to tell the intermediaries who run the networks where to send the communications, affixing identifiers like IP addresses and PSTN numbers. Then the network operators can record and disclose all of that information. And the implications of that information are significant, especially when it includes or implies location data. We just recently had a discussion here that touched on how difficult it might be to make a mobile phone that doesn't allow location tracking. I think it's possible with a significant engineering effort, but the easiest ways to design and deploy mobile communications networks all automatically make users' locations trackable. The best widely-used tool to defend against traffic analysis is Tor, but Tor's developers readily concede that it has a lot of important limitations and that there's no obvious path around many of them. Two of these important limitations (not the only ones) are: ① Anonymization adds latency to communications. Better anonymization usually adds more latency. Everywhere else, communications engineers are struggling to take the latency out of people's communications. At least in some systems, anonymity engineers are struggling to put it in. ② Network adversaries can notice that things coming out of a system correspond to things going in. Here's one of many statements of these two issues as they relate to systems like Tor: Furthermore, Onion Routing makes no attempt to stop timing attacks using traffic analysis at the network endpoints. They assume that the routing infrastructure is uniformly busy, thus making passive intra-network timing difficult. However, the network might not be statistically uniformly busy, and attackers can tell if two parties are communicating via increased traffic at their respective endpoints. This endpoint-linkable timing attack remains a difficulty for all low-latency networks. http://www.freehaven.net/src/related-comm.thtml These issues are less severe if people are using e-mail or (maybe better yet) forum posting, over an encrypted channel to a popular service that many people use. But they're quite serious for voice calls, video conferencing, and even instant messaging. -- Seth Schoen sch...@eff.org Senior Staff Technologist https://www.eff.org/ Electronic Frontier Foundation https://www.eff.org/join 815 Eddy Street, San Francisco, CA 94109 +1 415 436 9333 x107 -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA, FBI, Verizon caught red handed spying on US citizens in the US
On 06/07/2013 03:23 AM, Seth David Schoen wrote: The best widely-used tool to defend against traffic analysis is Tor, but Tor's developers readily concede that it has a lot of important limitations and that there's no obvious path around many of them. Two of these important limitations (not the only ones) are: ① Anonymization adds latency to communications. Better anonymization usually adds more latency. Everywhere else, communications engineers are struggling to take the latency out of people's communications. At least in some systems, anonymity engineers are struggling to put it in. ② Network adversaries can notice that things coming out of a system correspond to things going in. Here's one of many statements of these two issues as they relate to systems like Tor: Furthermore, Onion Routing makes no attempt to stop timing attacks using traffic analysis at the network endpoints. They assume that the routing infrastructure is uniformly busy, thus making passive intra-network timing difficult. However, the network might not be statistically uniformly busy, and attackers can tell if two parties are communicating via increased traffic at their respective endpoints. This endpoint-linkable timing attack remains a difficulty for all low-latency networks. http://www.freehaven.net/src/related-comm.thtml These issues are less severe if people are using e-mail or (maybe better yet) forum posting, over an encrypted channel to a popular service that many people use. But they're quite serious for voice calls, video conferencing, and even instant messaging. We were able to do our timing side-channel approach on Tor very successfully on a private Tor instance in our lab. When we tried it on the global net, we found the jitter inherent to Tor made it practically impossible. Have not tried it specifically on VOIP traffic, but the latency/jitter seems to me to do a pretty good job of making timing attacks unreliable for now. -RRB -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA, FBI, Verizon caught red handed spying on US citizens in the US
OK, so the US government has no business, or rather no moral authority, chiding other countries about freedom of speech! On Jun 6, 2013 6:10 AM, Jacob Appelbaum ja...@appelbaum.net wrote: Dear Libtech, We've waited a long time for this kind of FISA court document to leak - we see clearly evidence that there is still dragnet surveillance that is ongoing - the current order leaked is still valid as of today, it will continue to be valid until the middle of July. This specifically includes Americans without any international or even inter-city connections! To quote: wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls It specifically says a lot more: TOP SECRET//SI//NOFORN Declassify on: 12 April 2038 ... IT IS HEREBY ORDERED that, the Custodian of Records shall produce to the National Security Agency (NSA) upon service of this Order, and continue production on an ongoing daily basis thereafter for the duration of this Order, unless otherwise ordered by the Court, an electronic copy of the following tangible things: all call detail records or telephony metadata created by Verizon for communications (i) between the United States and abroad; or (ii) wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls. This Order does not require Verizon to produce telephony metadata for communications wholly originating and terminating in foreign countries. Telephony metadata includes comprehensive communications routing information,. including but not limited to session identifying information (e.g., originating and terminating telephone number, International Mobile Subscriber Identity (IMSI) number, International Mobile station Equipment Identity (IMEI) number, etc.), trunk identifier, telephone calling card numbers, and time and duration of call. Telephony metadata does not include the substantive content of any communication, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 2510(8), or the name, address, or financial information of a subscriber or customer. The leaked order is here: https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/709012/verizon.pdf The writeup by Glenn Greenwald is worth reading as he broke the story: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order This pretty much settles the dragnet surveillance debate - the FBI, the NSA, the FISA courts are aware of it - all the way to the top. Thus it is likely the DoJ are all in on it. This is madness and it is exactly proof of what we have been saying for years. This time it is undeniable as it is signed by a FISA judge and it is *currently* happening. I look forward to the FISA order for full content or the FISA for targeted based on patterns to leak next! All the best, Jacob -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA, FBI, Verizon caught red handed spying on US citizens in the US
No, it's really not - there are parts of the US gov (and VZ - I work there and I feel the same way about all this as anyone here) that oppose this type of blanket surveillance of an entire society. And if you think everyone in the government is monolithic about foreign policy, well, then there's a lot more reading you should probably do. I wish it were a little *more* fractured, personally, to avoid some of the more egregious bits we've seen over the last couple of centuries, but just because a side wins doesn't mean everyone is on board. On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Andrés Leopoldo Pacheco Sanfuentes alps6...@gmail.com wrote: Well, of course! I couldn't agree more with the underlying beliefs of Shava Nerad. BUT Government IS MONOLITHIC when it comes to FOREIGN POLICY ACTIONS, and INTERNAL SURVEILLANCE OF ITS OWN CITIZENS. There's no grey area in a WAR, there's no grey area in the FISA memo leaked, there's no grey area in the NSA and FBI's Directives from the Executive Branch. The US Buck stops at Obama, Obama is to blame for this crap, in the same fashion, for example, that the Turkish PM is to blame for the repressive atrocities in response to peaceful protests by turkuaz people. That doesn't stop the rest of us to celebrate FESTIVUS and keep on pounding at all those individuals and then some more that Shava Nerad points out. Best Regards | Cordiales Saludos | Grato, Andrés L. Pacheco Sanfuentes a...@acm.org +1 (817) 271-9619 On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Shava Nerad shav...@gmail.com wrote: The US government -- nor most any government, I imagine (certainly any democracy) -- is not monolithic. It represents a great struggle of policy arguments and internally is more like a mass of mating snakes than a monolithic front. To say that because the NSA is spying on citizens invalidates any voice the US may have is a bit odd. Jake and I are US citizens, activists, and I am a former State Democratic Committee member. Jake's day job is partly government funded by parts of .gov that are in fact in open conflict with DHS policies domestically. It's no secret that there are conflicts between the policies set by different branches of the US government. WE ARE NOT A DICTATORSHIP. Yet. Someone last week told me with some heat that my former position as a Democratic Party operative means I am the sort of person (contrary to the evidence of his senses) who does not talk to him because it makes me a right-leaning (!) ruling elite! (My father was a wobbly organizer as a young man, my grandfather a syndicalist -- let's say I am not terribly right wing?) I think I will frame that one... My point being, in a democratic society, we all have power to exert influence into the process at various levels, and I expect everyone here is on this list because they do or aspire to. So the first step might be to abandon the model that the government exists, any more than a school of herring exists. They tend to move as a whole, eh? But there is no solid thing. In fact, government is less whole than a school of fish, because a school of fish is coded in DNA and neurotransmitters and instinct. Not so, government. Government is a slow stubborn thing because it is so large and powerful viewed as the forest -- huge inertia! But the trees are not so hard. Elected officials, staff, policies, laws, courts, communications channels, media, regulations, contractors, bureaucrats, elections, political parties, everywhere there's a place to communicate, exchange influence/money, you can insert yourself into the system. It is not monolithic. In a democracy, by its nature, the citizenry are the rightful rulers. When they aren't cruising kittens on youtube, amiright? ;) So I post this story on G+ and most of my fellow citizens won't give a damn because they've been sold on the idea that: --- Government is monolithic, what could I do anyway? Politics is dirty. Only bad people get involved. I would not want to be a politician, activist, or hactivist, those are all bad, dangerous people. I click on internet petitions. I never have to leave the comfort and safety of my ergonomic chair to save the world. My karma is good and I give money to various liberal or conervative appeals and sleep well at night. People who ask me to be politically active seem frustrated and uncool. They should take more soma. Kittens are kwai! --- Yes, we are working on it here. That these documents are leaked and published is evidence of that, if you think about it, rather than just reacting to it. Yrs, Shava Nerad shav...@gmail.com On Jun 6, 2013 8:36 AM, Andrés Leopoldo Pacheco Sanfuentes alps6...@gmail.com wrote: OK, so the US government has no business, or rather no moral authority, chiding other countries about freedom of speech! On Jun 6, 2013 6:10 AM, Jacob Appelbaum ja...@appelbaum.net wrote: Dear Libtech, We've waited a long time for
Re: [liberationtech] NSA, FBI, Verizon caught red handed spying on US citizens in the US
Is there an online catalog of all those technologies? This is extremely important for anyone contemplating civil disobedience actions, or even just being very vocal about stuff that is wrong with this country and others. I have the feeling that usability experts are needed to make those techs more palatable, fool-proof, and user-friendly to use, just like a Mac! :D (I hate saying that, but what can I say, it's the truth! even though Apple allegedly has 140,000,000,000 in cash (foreign accounts, of course to avoid Uncle Sam's taxation rules) Best Regards | Cordiales Saludos | Grato, Andrés L. Pacheco Sanfuentes a...@acm.org +1 (817) 271-9619 On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Anthony Papillion anth...@cajuntechie.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 06/06/2013 06:07 AM, Jacob Appelbaum wrote: Dear Libtech, We've waited a long time for this kind of FISA court document to leak - we see clearly evidence that there is still dragnet surveillance that is ongoing - the current order leaked is still valid as of today, it will continue to be valid until the middle of July. This specifically includes Americans without any international or even inter-city connections! If anyone was still on the fence about this issue, this document shows that we simply cannot rely on the courts, secret or otherwise, to protect us from an out of control government. It's up to us to protect ourselves and, thankfully, we have the technology to do just that. It's our use of software like Tor, GnuPG, OTR, and various voice conversation encryption technologies that will save us from this kind of surveillance, not a court, president, or congress. It's time we get militant about using technology to defend ourselves. The time for real, concrete, action has long since come. Anthony - -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJRsMpAAAoJEAKK33RTsEsV7s0P/joy0Uh27CZhCTRJWJ+h9X1Z 3hogBfGRdleA5bgABcbR4aO69bAfnSpodbd/WUEryjdSOdGraMgzg+1otqGS4+kr 60q2QwQbVNJ6ELy5sWaIImvlqq1r4F3RctpaEokGeSD2bWfl3lEA3lBHWRX3z/AJ +sDcWpob03o0otuu4zuooMhIoFMe5qBJR6KWP7bSKcWhXuZZSI9cM1PXoc6OZWzT R8tp/SAvHK6YpYj+q0Q0C9N9zBENI/txAq/PiJg7M4+Q4T1xhuwN1XGaD7gjcLfw 7HSz9MHuvLu6dRGXZzdXtcnzVVdnbo0mBt0yWtm4yqOJtDm1n5pynwfTZdSgZwYk CGZJEiyrNg/IDj6nhJbZ6HeOTNHiExmC9vp3b1ST2cdBqWDe0Gdewdbup/NiXw8G GOKfLNlF+WpKN9JlW1npSSrGs5IJreuwvXz1uvKGeXxaliXk9zks2y1gZiOio8e3 iIeCLhF5M2vaz+tMqei1GaLq3PALep1m1C/fz8RcUBlNgu1z1q4KVBTk/VhyHxQK opbsQuVXvyj/7RN0COnOKKKN9nohry5hX4vvVTMKUHv1aVnVKU33pmGPsHYqEZLa kptAkJ5cLGv7c0nUgudqJGy8S3T0gPW/EijIeAzrtKBR/QBTyaB1dIbyUl5GeHrj nCeGmlHHxBwHw+zpUQDD =K8ST -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA, FBI, Verizon caught red handed spying on US citizens in the US
When I said MONOLITHIC I wasn't referring to all departments or agencies inside government, or even less to individuals working therein, but rather to the effect. If the US government starts a war, it doesn't matter if 49.99% opposed it. It's still going on and people get killed. For those people, and their circles, the US government is MONOLITHIC. If a person residing in the US, Verizon's customer, gets detained by the FBI, and subsequently harrassed and disappears, for all affected the Government is MONOLITHIC. A single shot, and bang: you're dead (or, worse yet, being killed however softly they choose) It's like binary code: either ONE or ZERO. No grey zone. Best Regards | Cordiales Saludos | Grato, Andrés L. Pacheco Sanfuentes a...@acm.org +1 (817) 271-9619 On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Andrés Leopoldo Pacheco Sanfuentes alps6...@gmail.com wrote: Is there an online catalog of all those technologies? This is extremely important for anyone contemplating civil disobedience actions, or even just being very vocal about stuff that is wrong with this country and others. I have the feeling that usability experts are needed to make those techs more palatable, fool-proof, and user-friendly to use, just like a Mac! :D (I hate saying that, but what can I say, it's the truth! even though Apple allegedly has 140,000,000,000 in cash (foreign accounts, of course to avoid Uncle Sam's taxation rules) Best Regards | Cordiales Saludos | Grato, Andrés L. Pacheco Sanfuentes a...@acm.org +1 (817) 271-9619 On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Anthony Papillion anth...@cajuntechie.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 06/06/2013 06:07 AM, Jacob Appelbaum wrote: Dear Libtech, We've waited a long time for this kind of FISA court document to leak - we see clearly evidence that there is still dragnet surveillance that is ongoing - the current order leaked is still valid as of today, it will continue to be valid until the middle of July. This specifically includes Americans without any international or even inter-city connections! If anyone was still on the fence about this issue, this document shows that we simply cannot rely on the courts, secret or otherwise, to protect us from an out of control government. It's up to us to protect ourselves and, thankfully, we have the technology to do just that. It's our use of software like Tor, GnuPG, OTR, and various voice conversation encryption technologies that will save us from this kind of surveillance, not a court, president, or congress. It's time we get militant about using technology to defend ourselves. The time for real, concrete, action has long since come. Anthony - -- Anthony Papillion Phone: 1.918.533.9699 SIP: sip:cajuntec...@iptel.org iNum:+883510008360912 XMPP:cypherpun...@jit.si www.cajuntechie.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJRsMpAAAoJEAKK33RTsEsV7s0P/joy0Uh27CZhCTRJWJ+h9X1Z 3hogBfGRdleA5bgABcbR4aO69bAfnSpodbd/WUEryjdSOdGraMgzg+1otqGS4+kr 60q2QwQbVNJ6ELy5sWaIImvlqq1r4F3RctpaEokGeSD2bWfl3lEA3lBHWRX3z/AJ +sDcWpob03o0otuu4zuooMhIoFMe5qBJR6KWP7bSKcWhXuZZSI9cM1PXoc6OZWzT R8tp/SAvHK6YpYj+q0Q0C9N9zBENI/txAq/PiJg7M4+Q4T1xhuwN1XGaD7gjcLfw 7HSz9MHuvLu6dRGXZzdXtcnzVVdnbo0mBt0yWtm4yqOJtDm1n5pynwfTZdSgZwYk CGZJEiyrNg/IDj6nhJbZ6HeOTNHiExmC9vp3b1ST2cdBqWDe0Gdewdbup/NiXw8G GOKfLNlF+WpKN9JlW1npSSrGs5IJreuwvXz1uvKGeXxaliXk9zks2y1gZiOio8e3 iIeCLhF5M2vaz+tMqei1GaLq3PALep1m1C/fz8RcUBlNgu1z1q4KVBTk/VhyHxQK opbsQuVXvyj/7RN0COnOKKKN9nohry5hX4vvVTMKUHv1aVnVKU33pmGPsHYqEZLa kptAkJ5cLGv7c0nUgudqJGy8S3T0gPW/EijIeAzrtKBR/QBTyaB1dIbyUl5GeHrj nCeGmlHHxBwHw+zpUQDD =K8ST -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
Re: [liberationtech] NSA, FBI, Verizon caught red handed spying on US citizens in the US
On Thu, Jun 06, 2013 at 12:56:33PM -0500, Andrés Leopoldo Pacheco Sanfuentes wrote: If the US government starts a war, it doesn't matter if 49.99% opposed it. It's still going on and people get killed. For those people, and their circles, the US government is MONOLITHIC. https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/942400_478286445573487_2110837671_n.jpg -- ___ [wil...@trip.sk] [http://trip.sk/wilder/] [talker: ttt.sk 5678] -- Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at compa...@stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech
