Re: [Libreoffice] A (new?) bug in LibreOffice 3.4 and a missing feature?
Hi Axel, * Axel Reimer schrieb: Hello, I tried LibreOffice 3.4 for some days (using Ubuntu 11.04) and I recognized two things: 1. The menuicons are set to: size: Automatic style: Automatic (Tango) I went to the tools --> options -> View" and changed the icon style to "Galaxy (Standard)" and clicked ok. Since the icons were to big, when set to "automatic" i went back to the menu and set the icon size to "small". But the icon size did not change. I set the both back to the standard case and clicked ok. Now I went again to the menu and changed the icon size and the icon style at once and clicked ok. Now it worked. This behaviour is reproducable. I can confirm this behavior: Please file a bug report, if there isn't one already available. It would be great, if you could code a bit and find out where in the code the wrong order commands (at least I think this should be the reason for it) cause this behavior. As this is the developer list, where direct action on the code is discussed, you would get any help you need if you were interested in such action. Otherwise the discuss or user list could be a better place for similar questions in future - or a new bug report (if the search in bugzilla doesn't reveal an existing one you can comment on) as direct approach to the testers and developers working on this field. 2. There is mentioned a unity integration in the release notes of 3.4. But the menus do not integrate in the global menu and I cannot find an option in LibreOffice to do so. Is this feature really integrated? see also: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/3.4#GUI I can't test this, as I didn't run dpkg on the .deb files in the desktop integration folder on my parallel installation of LibO 3.4.0RC2 Here a posting to disc...@documentfoundation.org (or us...@libreoffice.org) might lead to more replies... Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [PATCH] new color picker dialog for all applications
Hi Christian, great to have you here! Christian Lippka schrieb: This is a patch I have hacked on in my spare time. It replaces the old color picker with a new one. See here for a video demo http://youtu.be/rPu6EmIxkIM?hd=1 To see it in the running office you can for example go to menu tools->options->colors and press edit So it's only meant as color picker to define a new standard color? This would be a great improvement over the present menu and There are just a few questions open I can't understand from your video: When clicking on the round button at the side of the RGB and HSB values (do you want to add this for CMYK too?) it seems that this keeps the entry constant during selection of any point in the large color field. When you move the focus on the small color bar at the side of the color area the fixed values seem to move. Do you want to add a description to these buttons (or did you already) to explain to the user what happens when he clicks on them? By the way: Did we already implement any bugzilla keyword or wiki page pointing documentation team (including help creators) and UX to areas they should know of? Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Git Artwork guide
Hi Björn, Christoph, all Bjoern Michaelsen schrieb: Hi designers, Hi developers, following the discussion on: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/756895 I created a short tutorial for designers on how to get setup to contribute artwork directly to the project at without a complete build: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/GitArtworkGuide I read it and can't wait to try it. Unfortunately this will take some time, because my days (and nights) are much too short... But I want to thank you very much for this possibility! @Designers: Feel free to move it, beautify it and most of all: link to it. Thanks to Christoph for his integrative work here. Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Installing beta versions replacing stable versions
Tor Lillqvist schrieb: Ed Drinkwater wrote: What is that supposed to mean? It certainly doesn't sound like a coherent, constructive contribution to the issue! That is because I am basically an incoherent dribbling idiot, la la la, na na splutgh xzbbpfft! Me wants more porridge! Sometimes it's much better to hit the "delete" button instead of "send". Parallel installation of daily builds has been discussed a few days ago (I don't remember the list), where one of the core developers (Björn?) described that this is not trivial, but an important issue for LibreOffice. Betas are much more important for our public recognition - but this might not be seen by some developers. This list is not dedicated for discussions on missing features: If there is need for a discussion, the topic should be raised on the marketing list (I don't think that this is necessary here). If the task is already clear, just go on to bugzilla. Ed: Would you please search for a bug report covering this topic - and if there is none, create one? I hope a developer could look into the problem to determine, if this topic would be able to serve as "easy hack", so it might be picked by a volunteer. And we need to add a warning to our homepage, that standard installation will erase the working productive version of LibreOffice (probably leading to less feedback than we hoped for). I'll send a mail to our website list... Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [ Libreoffice ] icon in GNOME3
Hi David, all, David Tardon wrote: > On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 11:42:42AM +0100, Caolán McNamara wrote: > > On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 11:34 +0200, Andreas Proschofsky wrote: > > > *) Add 256x256 pixel versions of the LO icons > > > > caolanm->dtardon: didn't you fix this already, or at least tweak > > something to generate the correct size ? > > Well, not really. I just fixed the sysui/desktop/shared/create_tree.sh > script to use 128x128 px versions of the icons (that we had had already) > in addition to the other, smaller, resolutions. Could you implement 256x256 px versions too? > Of course the best thing > to do would be to install scalable versions of the icons alongside the > scaled ones, but I haven't found these anywhere in the tree... Do we > have SVG's of the icons? They are part of the large source file: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/cgi_img_auth.php/d/d4/LibreOffice_Initial_Icons-pre_final.svg While extraction of .png bitmaps is realized via a script by Thorsten Behrens, I don't see a solution for automatic creation of flat SVG files for the single icons. We could do this for the present icons manually, but I think this is not reasonable to do this on every new iteration of the icons. Does anybody know about UI integration of SVG icons on other platforms and distribtutions? Would it be reasonable to create single SVG files now? Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [libreoffice-design] Re: icon in GNOME3
Hi Sasa, * Sasa Ostrouska schrieb: [...] Hi, just to add, the icon of the quick-launcher is also still ooo. For the Tango theme this is already mentioned at the bug report: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33229#c25 Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [libreoffice-design] Re: icon in GNOME3
Hi Michael, all, Michael Meeks schrieb: Hi Florian, On Mon, 2011-04-04 at 12:34 +0200, Florian Effenberger wrote: I just got notice that the LibO icon in GNOME3 seems to be the OOo logo, see http://derstandard.at/1297821927182/Ansichtssache-GNOME3---Details-der-neuen-Desktop-Generation?sap=2&_slideNumber=8&_seite= Anyone from GNOME reading this list and can make necessary changes? ;-) Hmm - I guess, that looks like the icon we install; and the ones we're using on my desktop too (odd). Is this already mentioned in the bug report? https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33229 If not - could you please leave a comment / screenshot? Having said that, have we fixed the palette / sizing issues around the existing icons and their integration with Tango ? it would be nice to have that for the 3.4. Paulo created the icons and they have been attached to the bug. I don't know how far integration has been gone. Also - I guess the design guys should have commit access to the icons by now, if not whomever is working hardest on that should get it [ please mail me privately ]. Is there an easy way to commit without developer skills? (And without the time to learn how to build?) Additionally to this question we need a possibility to check the committed design related patches - probably this will be able to be solved by (nearly) nightly master installers... I added these points to the WWN wiki page: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Kick-Off/WhatWeNeed#Proposals_by_Bernhard_Dippold (hopefully not interfering with Christoph's structuring of this page...) Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] icon in GNOME3
Hi Andreas, Florian, all (CC'ing two lists because I can't reach all the people involved on one of them) Andreas Proschofsky schrieb: Hi Florian, Well yes and no. The icons in the Linux binary are the right ones, but if you build from source you still get the old ones by default. So this is a bug - the source shouldn't contain old OOo icons any more. The relevant bug report is https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33229, but I don't know how far Thorsten (or anybody else?) has been able by now to update the places where the old icons appear. To add complexity to this story: The icons in the screenshot are from the openSUSE default icon set, I've used them on my system for the screens as the LibreOffice default icons look pretty bad in GNOME3 atm. (Disclaimer to those who don't know me: I'm the author of the article in question). That's simply because we (LO) don't deliver high resolution icons right now. We do. Thorsten did integrate all the different sizes we (LibO Design Team) provided. The largest scale is 256x256 for all application/document icons. They look like this: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibreOffice_icons_256.png One month ago Jakub Steiner mentioned already the lack of 256px icons. Thorsten had been involved in this discussion, but I don't know if the source of the problem could already be found out and solved in master. If not, it's my fault too, because I didn't include the topic in the bug report until today :-( What GNOME Shell / GNOME 3.0 would need is shiny 256x256 Pixel resolutions. 48x48 are scaled up and look very fuzzy as a result. Of course. We do provide the large scale, they are just not distributed in the respective /usr/share/icons/hicolor/ folders. So what needs to be done: *) Add 256x256 pixel versions of the LO icons ... to the right folders ;-) *) Adapt libreoffice-build to actually use them ;) ... I think this might be a GUI feature ... *) Optionally: Make openSUSE to not use its own icons for LibreOffice ;) It's their decision (even if we hope they would be satisfied by our hires icons). The least we would ask is not to use OpenOffice.org symbols... Best regards Bernhard PS: Designers: We should think of providing single SVG icons (256px) to be provided as scalable sources in /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable. But I think it is not as easy as extracting .png files from the Inkscape source, if we want to get single flat icons for every application... ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [PATCH] Improvement of Adding and Removing Color Charts
Rob Snelders schrieb: Hi, I have improved my last patch for the Color Charts. It now renames the Color Charts, asks a question before removing of a color and selects a new color when deleting of when setting to default. Great! Thanks for your work and your openness to proposals for improvement! While I can't test the code, I hope for some developer(s) to approve it, so it can be pushed in master before LibO 3.4 branch/feature freeze. Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [libreoffice-design] [PATCH] color charts
Hi Rob, all, (CC'ing the dev list again, as this relates to both parts of the discussion) Rob Snelders schrieb: Hi All, [this was me, Bernhard]: Just one question, as I can't try the feature by myself: Do you provide the same confirmation window as the standard color selector in Options - LibreOffice - Colors when removing a color: "Do you want to delete the color?" Or is it different like "Do you want to remove the color from the default colors?" There is no confirmation yet. But I am refining the patch because of improvement proposals from the developers-list, so if some changes are needed I can implement them on the follow-up patch. If it would be easy to add such a confirmation, this would make the feature not only more consistent with other areas where items are removed (like the colors I mentioned above). For a user who pushed the button unintentionally it might be a problem to add the right color again - leading to inconsistent colors in his or her charts. And with a double click instead of a single one not only the superfluous color is removed, but the next or last one too. So if it is not too hard to add the confirmation (perhaps you can copy it from Options - LibreOffice - Colors), it would be great if you could include it in your patch. Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [libreoffice-design] Review needed to try to resurrect "add slide thumbnails to HTML export" part
Hi Michael, hello Julien, all, Michael Meeks schrieb: Hi Julien, On Fri, 2011-03-25 at 00:25 +0100, Julien Nabet wrote: I worked a little on "add slide thumbnails to HTML export" part. The code compiles ok with Debian testing updated x86 (and no parameter at all in autogen), gcc (Debian 4.5.2-4) Nice work :-) It's hard to imagine what you did, as there are different options to do a HTML export. I only tried this : - create a impress document with 2 slides - export to XHTML, HTML and save it in test.html You exported it via File - Wizards - Web Page, I assume? When exporting it via File - Export ... choosing "XHTML" format there is no preview. Good stuff. then I got these files : .. I don't know if it's what was expected but i'm sure it needs some reviewing since I added, changed and removed 1 or 2 things from the original patch. Heh - so, the essence is that the front-page of the slideshow: - test.html should have a little mosaic of the slides that you can click on (prolly this needs some html div/whatever love - perhaps we can ask the UI/design guys about that as/when we create the new list for that). As we can't see what you have created, is there a chance to get a screenshot? I can just imagine, what you want to achieve: The present wizard creates a list of files (in index.html) as well as a table of contents (in /content//.html) for presentations, direct preview for text files and drawings. If the wizard was used to create a framed website (third step of the wizard, second line of layouts), the ToC is shown in the frame on the index.html page. This ToC shows the name of the slides and a link to start a web representation of the file (/content//siframes.html) This webpage contains on the left hand side the titles of the slides (expandable to lower hierarchies), on the right hand side the slides are shown - switchable on forward/backward buttons or by clicking on the titles. Do you want to replace these titles on siframes.html by the thumbnails (similar to the Slides area in Impress)? Or should already the Table of Contents (.html) provide the thumbnails? Clickable thumbnails would be intuitive to use, providing an easy access to the content. I'm sure it can be improved, especially for accessibility (selection movable by mouse and keyboard, alternative titles etc), but if I understand it right, your patch will be an improvement over the present state, so please go on! If this patch is ok, i can of course push it. Looks fine to me :-) please do push it if it works as I outline above ;-) We should also consult the design team as to whether they want this to be optional; there is a big white-space for 'options' in the 2nd page of the HTML export wizard that we could whack that into. You mean the "Documents" page? Under "Export to file format" a checkbox: "Provide thumbnails"? Then again, IMHO adding gratuitous options is mostly cowardly (as previously discussed), either way IMHO the option should be on by default if it is there I think. In this case I agree: Even with larger presentations the size of the thumbnails don't enlarge the resulting website too much, but provide relevant information. Thus I think we should not add an option to skip the creation of thumbnails. (If users will complain about the resulting size, an additional option in "Export to file format" can be created later: "HTML without thumbnails") No doubt, there is quite some scope for cleaning up the HTML the HTML export dialog generates too in the light of the modern web. While we're there; we should prolly ask the design guys to address the -very- blury artwork banners in that HTML export dialog, it looks odd to me (though perhaps it is a 'feature-not-bug' ;-) I don't like these "colorful" graphical webdesign either. I don't know how we can get better design integrated in this wizard. Do you need color and size definition, graphics or finalized websites? If we can get such information, we can add some kind of "Design Easy Hack" to work on by some interested designers. But more important: If you leave the original file formats, you'll get StarOffice file icons! These should definitely be replaced by the corresponding LibO icons. Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [PATCH] fdo#32413: Add an apply button to style edit dialog in Writer
Hi Miklos, all, thanks for this feature! Complex style modifications will become much easier this way, when you don't need to close the window every time you want to have a look at the changes. Is somebody of the documentation team aware of such changes, so it might be included in the next version of the documentation (especially if there exist a screenshot of the style edit window)? Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [UX]How to drive new users to style-based formatting (idea)
Hi Rafael, all! I don't know if you have noticed Octavio's reply (it raised your mail to visibility again), because he didn't CC you, what seems to be usual here on this list (in opposite to any other LibreOffice list). If not, here is a link: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2011-March/009534.html Rafael Daud schrieb: Hi all, I've just joined the development list, and don't have any programming skills worth to mention, but I'm quite eager to contribute to the development of LibreOffice (BrOffice here), and do have few ideas to share. Please advert me if I don't follow the good practices in here :-) I could imagine, that you would like to join the design team, because over there we don't work on visual design only, but on UX- and UI-design too. Therefore I CC'd the design list - Follow-up over there please... Please have a look at the wiki for details about our mailing list http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design#Communication If you want to, post your idea there too. What I was thinking is how to make new users (or even old ones) to use style-based rather than direct formatting.[...] Styles are a very mighty feature - but as you state below, they are not accessible enough to be accepted by the average user. The result is Style formatting is quite invisible to many users, unless they know what they're doing. And in that case, it's still not pretty or easily accessible. You can feel the power when you change the Font in all of your titles at once, or when you change line spacing in all of your paragraphs but long quotations in their own paragraphs. Even then, having to open a new Styles & Formatting window, selecting the right style, asking to edit it, then managing through a new dialog is quite a hassle. What if I just wanted to change a single aspect of my style, say, first line indent, then see how it looks, then change another, say, paragraph indent, then another, and another, I would have to go though that dialog a thousand times. I might get tired, and opt for the direct formatting as a easier way to do things. I've done that, back then with openoffice 1.1. What if there was another way? An easier, more intuitive, self-explanatory way? It would be great, but probably not easy at all to find a way "normal" user will accept it as better than the way they are used to. What they are used: Select a word or phrase and add an attribute (bold, italic, color...) to it. If they want to copy the attributes to another word or phrase, they use the "paint brush" or "copy" & "paste special". If they change the formatting of one of the words with such attributes (e.g. add "italic" to pre-existent "bold"), they don't expect that all the other bold words become italic too. Every proposal that doesn't respect this workflow is most likely to fail. Your idea might be tricky: [...] In the formatting toolbar, there's a checkbox, checked by default, with the phrasing "applies to style" next to it, and after that, the drop-down entry of styles. [...] So every change you made from the interface, while the checkbox was checked, would apply to the style. [...] So I go to the ruler, and change the first line indentation. Next paragraph (and the ones above it) all get the new indentation, without me having to Crtl-A or select manually all of them. Just because they use Default Style. But say I want this one paragraph to be different than others? Then I go to the style drop-down entry and choose Textbody, or whatever. Then all new changes to the ruler, font etc. gets applied to the new style. And, of course, when I change style from the style entry form, the new chosen style gets automaticaly applied to that paragraph. So I know what's going on: I'm working with styles. But you need to change the style *before* you do the formatting. Imagine an average user who wants to create a title followed by normal text. He writes the text of the title, changes the font size, centers the text and turns it bold. You wrote that character formatting is a topic you didn't find a solution for by now - but I think this is similar. Just stick with "centered" in my example. All this formatting is applied to the Default style without his knowledge. Now he continues to write: The normal text is bold, large and centered. What does he do? He changes these attributes. He will be very astonished to find out that his title has become normal text again! And imagine he wants to color one word in his text in red. How can he understand why his entire text becomes red? He will probably need to learn how to define different formatting for characters, paragraphs, pages and so on. If he doesn't find out how to do this (and if he isn't willing to spend some time on styles), he will decide that LibreOffice is broken and never try it again. That way, even the most newbie will know right from the start he's working with styles. Not really - an option to check in the menu doesn
Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice accepted as a participating organization for Google Summer of Code 2011
Hi Fridrich, thanks for the great news! I CC'd the discuss@TDF list because this might help to involve friends of people reading that list to join our community, if they are told about the SoC possibilities... Fridrich Strba schrieb: The title says it all. Let the students start to fall :) Fridrich I think, this should be worth an official TDF blog entry (or even perhaps a PR?) visible at the main website. Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [libreoffice-design] General relationship between coders and designers
Hi Michael, all, sorry - this mail is really long! Please scroll to the bottom to find a short conclusion. Michael Meeks wrote: Hi Bernhard, On Wed, 2011-03-09 at 22:11 +0100, Bernhard Dippold wrote: [...] Firstly, I of course want to apologise that my mail made you mad - clearly I was trying to redress an imbalance I was concerned might exist, and over-emphasised one side to try to help re-balance things. Unfortunately, that tipped the balance completely the other way - which I can understand (in retrospect) sounds upsetting, sorry. Thanks for your understanding! I know that we both want the best for our community - but as our point of view is different, we probably will always have different preferences and ways to work. Having said that, I do think there might be some difference of understanding here, so lets dive into more detail. I know that this is not your normal way to communicate, because you prefer direct action and less discussion. So I want to thank you for the time you spend here. Also, apologies for not reading the mail [...] You read it and replied to it (and this in a reasonable time - while time can't be valued by anybody than oneself): No need at all for any apology. If you replied to it without reading ;-) If Michael (as one of the most relevant developer in our >> community) is right with attitude against non-coding contributors I hope I'm not against anything, particularly not designer developers :-) I am -for- encouraging coders to get their code into the product, and for designers to get their ideas realised *and* simultaneously to create a fun place for everyone to work together, with good relationships. Of course that seems to have gone wrong here, and needs fixing :-) You stated clearly that you are against any delay of development - so we need to find a way to include the other points you mentions (especially the "fun" factor for developers and non-coders and the good relationship) too. and if this is the official position of the LibreOffice project So - of course, my view is not an official position. Having said that, it is perhaps worth discussing. We both know that it is not very likely so see a position paper by the SC that doesn't cover your points in the area of coding. But it might avoid this kind of misunderstandings in future, if there would be such an official position all teams can agree to. In the sphere of design, I see the design team as having a whole spectum of responsibility. At one end - one similar to the coder's and at the other a critical advisory and leadership role. So - starting at the coder-like end: * hard ownership role: + I expect the design team to own all of the artwork, icon themes, etc. in the product. This is one part of the visual design, where we want to achieve a better consistency between product, website and marketing. Even this needs coding support - as designer can't implement their work on their own. But it might be easier to convince some developers to support such an implementation. * middler-ground role + defaults / dialog layout etc. + clearly this is fuzzier: dialog layout is (currently) dependent on l10n, so some things can't be done: we can't wedge 10x buttons into a small space ;-) No problem at all: As this has to be taken into account by UX this is one of the points we consider from the start. + defaults can have a huge impact on performance, maintenance, complexity and code flow Here we need developer input - best in an early stage of our workflow. + changes to dialog layout & behaviour require coding support - which -must- be -persuaded- not dictated You know that I don't like the "dictatorship" description. It works in both directions. But this is the main question in the developer - non-developer relationship. I'll come back to this point later on. * weak ownership >+ "lets re-architect the whole user interface" >+ the weakness here is mostly one of coding resource, and impact on architecture If these are the main arguments against a consistent UI improvement, let's move this part up to the "hard ownership": It is crucial for LibreOffice as product and community to define a user interface that pleases neither the coders nor any other community members, but our present and future users. + it is simply not possible or practicle to dictate terms to other teams Same as above: see my opinion below. + rejecting inclusion of working improvements + this has an incredibly negative impact on the growth and fun of the coding community. That's what I see too and want to avoid by having established some rules to understand and follow. "Improvement" can be seen very differently - for working improvements where all related teams can agree on this term I don't see a reason to
Re: [Libreoffice] [libreoffice-design] General relationship between coders and designers (was: [PUSHED]fdo#31251...)
Hi Michael, all, At first I want to thank Sébastien not only for his work, but also for being open to the discussion here, even if this means to delay the final inclusion of his patch. I tried to calm down for more than one day by now, but as Michael repeated his position, I have to reply now. Sorry for not being able to react as positive as Christoph - perhaps I didn't spend enough time in UX/UI to learn to live with this kind of disappointment. *Short version:* If Michael (as one of the most relevant developer in our community) is right with attitude against non-coding contributors and if this is the official position of the LibreOffice project and The Document Foundation, I will not keep on spending my spare time and dedication to this open source project any more. When coders are allowed and encouraged to do their changes regardless of the voting of the relevant experts in areas their code contribution touches, we come back to a two-class community where the broader community is not involved in decisions taken by non-experts but influencing the entire community and it's public standing. I will no longer be part of such a community. *Long version:* Michael Meeks schrieb: Hi Sebastien, On Tue, 2011-03-08 at 09:09 +0100, Sébastien Le Ray wrote: this simple shadow patch has generated a long discussion on Libreoffice-design. Some people don't like the color, some people don't like the amount of blur, some people want no shadow at all, some people want a "4 borders" shadow. You're right about the different personal feelings, but they are not a decision of the LibreOffice Design Team. For a developer interested in working on a certain topic it would be easier to get a final voting like "The Design Team asks you to add a 8 px wide blurred shadow in grey transparency to all borders of the document. If the zoom factor reduces the space between two sheets to less than 16px, the overlapping areas of the shadow should be cut off. This should apply to every area of LibreOffice, where document borders are visible, namely Writer, Impress, Draw, XML forms [others not yet searched for]." But such a specification is necessarily a result of some kind of discussion, if there is no single decision maker. As we don't want such single person decisions, this list is "talkative". So here is a second patchset that tries to address the first three critics : I hope you understand now, that the comments have not been meant as critics, but as part of the decision making process in the Design Team. Perhaps we need a different way to interact with developers, keeping them out of our processes and coming back to them with the results. This could be the relevant bug-report, a mail on the developer list or any other structure. But at least at the moment, where we are a young group working on our basic structures, this takes some days... In my eyes it is very important to show developers how the Design Team works, giving them background information on important UI and UX points. So - firstly, this -sounds- like an interaction disaster :-) I hope it is not of course, but it looks like this: We finally get a competant, enthusiastic, motivated developer - actually fixing our horrible user interface problems: and he does some great improvement - and our design guys apparently emit a long stream of complaining left and right ! That, if true, is hard to excuse. And I hope you don't mean it this way, but it sounds like this: A team of individuals works hard to establish a common visual design for LibreOffice. They spend hours and days of hard work on this topic and their work seems to be respected by the community. But when a developer wants to improve something on the UI and informs the Design Team about this topic, he is told by one of the leading developers in the community not to care any sh... about the Design Team... We need to greet new guys with a torrent of encouragement instead I think. Right - but these new guys are not only developers, but other community members like designers and UX experts too. I don't read your mail as encouragement to them :-( I hope I'm wrong - I don't read the design list because I can't interact there [ Reply-To: mangling sucks ;-] That's your personal opinion - everybody else can subscribe to the list and avoids offlist communication and duplicated mails... - but this paragraph smells problematic. I think we need to remember that the perfect is the sworn enemy of the good - so lets get good across the code, before we get perfect. Of course this statement is right - but working on a topic without respect to the specialists is even worse than trying to be as good as possible. Perhaps we should move all programmer interaction on design / UI topics onto this list, or a new Freedesktop one - and leave the 'design' list as more of a 'discuss' type forum. You refer to the libreoffice@freed
Re: [Libreoffice] [libreoffice-design] Re: [PUSHED] fdo#31251 - Improve default page layout
Hi Björn, all, Bjoern Michaelsen schrieb: Hi Michael, Christoph, designers and developers [...] However, it is a such a common issue, that it even has a name "Parkinson's Law of Triviality" or "colour of the bikeshed": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality So we should not be ashamed that it happens, only be prepared to handle it well. For developers this means that you cant make everybody happy and you should not dispair if not everybody loves your implementation on first sight. I agree with you that the design modification here is an example of lower priority. But the way one of the main developer seems to disregard non-coding community members is independent from this question. This is nearly the same position Oracle developers showed when handling proposals and requests by the rest of the community. I can't stand this attitude any longer - sorry. Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] custom icon
Hi Vu Hung, * Nguyen Vu Hung schrieb: On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 12:32 AM, Michael Meeks wrote: Hi there, On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 23:39 +0700, Nguyen Vu Hung wrote: Is it possible to build LibOffice with a custom icon. Of course :-) Thank you! For example, we want to use a customized icon by adding a drum to the background of LibO icon like this http://vi.openoffice.org/images/oooviet3.png That is quite easy. We are trying to consolidate the branding images in the code into: default_images/brand/ So you would just need to drop .png images into there; while you're there - I would re-brand the 'about' dialog, and also the shell images (inside shell/). Well, the file format is .png. What is the size of the png file and other technical specification that I have to know? All these files are part of the artwork package, uploaded to the wiki: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibreOffice-Initial-Artwork-Package.zip They contain not only the .png versions, but the .svg sources too, so it is easier to work on them. When creating new / modified branding images, please take into account, that we want to establish a strong brand all over the world, therefore please respect the branding guidelines: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding especially with regards to the background colors and whitespace area around the logo. Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [ Libreoffice ] Impressive mockups
Hi all, > Hi all, > > This is beautiful! > http://www.techdrivein.com/2011/01/impressive-libreoffice-ui-mockups-you.html > > LibreOffice will be the best office suite ever seen! :-) > just FYI: Paulo is already part of our Design Team :-) He created the detailed 256px versions (and an updated 128px version) of our new icon set: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Paulojose#Adding_details_to_Christoph.27s_Mimetype_Icons_.402011.2C_jan_24-28 Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
[Libreoffice] MimeType icons - format and naming for inclusion in package?
Hi all, the LibreOffice Design Team is working hard to finalize an iconset containing MimeType icons for application/documents and templates in order to replace the present icons from OOo 3.0 to 3.2. If you want to have a look at the present state, please visit the wiki: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/LibreOffice_Initial_Icons#Present_State_of_the_Icon_Design We don't know if there will be a chance to integrate them in the final release for LibO 3.3.0 (this will have to be decided, when the iconset is ready), but even if they make it in LibO 3.3.1 only, we need to know how to format the icons and what are the names to be used for easiest packaging. The ODF icon page [1] shows several file names (probably used in OOo). Are they the same in LibO? With the proper information the design team will try to provide the icons in the best possible way. Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [PATCH] [REWORKED][PUSHED] Standard-color-palette-updates
Hi Petr, all, Petr Mladek schrieb: Bernhard Dippold píše v Út 11. 01. 2011 v 00:37 +0100: Hi Petr, Kami, all, Petr Mladek schrieb: Kálmán „KAMI” Szalai píše v So 08. 01. 2011 v 15:28 +0100: Hi All, Updated patch, Remove LibreOffice colors from standard, and updates libreoffice.soc with latest colors. I hope it is fine for us. looked fine => pushed Note that the palette name does not include year. Is it OK? I think Christoph called the palette "LibreOffice_Initial_Branding_Colors.soc", because they will change during the next year. His next palette would probably be called "LibreOffice_Community_Branding_Colors.soc". My approach was only a bit different: I added the year in order to allow further changes to the branding colors without the necessity to call the next branding effort by a different name. Hmm, I see libreoffice.soc in the installed system. If you think the file name is too long, we can omit "Initial" (because the year is unique - we should not come up with more than one iteration on the branding colors during one year). "Colors" is superfluous too for a color palette, so my favorite name would be LibreOffice_Branding_2010.soc This would allow to create new Branding palettes every now and then without the problem of visually different documents in different versions of LibreOffice (when a color of the palette has been updated in-between). Well, this should not be a problem. The colors are saved using RGB values and not the color name. I have just used "LibreOffice Green 3" in an .odg document, removed libreoffice.soc from the system and user configuration, opened the file again, the color stayed the same, it was just not named. Thanks for trying out! There might some seldom UX cases, where user don't get the results they look for (like modified colors when working on a document created with an older version of LibO - especially if the changes are only visible in comparison to the old color). But this is not related to the name of the color palette, so I think we can leave this patch as it is now, as the name of the palette is not really important in most cases. If someone stumbles upon a problem, a bug report will probably easy to be handled... Best regards Bernhard. Best Regards, Petr ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [PATCH] [REWORKED][PUSHED] Standard-color-palette-updates
Hi Petr, Kami, all, Petr Mladek schrieb: Kálmán „KAMI” Szalai píše v So 08. 01. 2011 v 15:28 +0100: Hi All, Updated patch, Remove LibreOffice colors from standard, and updates libreoffice.soc with latest colors. I hope it is fine for us. looked fine => pushed Note that the palette name does not include year. Is it OK? I think Christoph called the palette "LibreOffice_Initial_Branding_Colors.soc", because they will change during the next year. His next palette would probably be called "LibreOffice_Community_Branding_Colors.soc". My approach was only a bit different: I added the year in order to allow further changes to the branding colors without the necessity to call the next branding effort by a different name. If you think the file name is too long, we can omit "Initial" (because the year is unique - we should not come up with more than one iteration on the branding colors during one year). "Colors" is superfluous too for a color palette, so my favorite name would be LibreOffice_Branding_2010.soc This would allow to create new Branding palettes every now and then without the problem of visually different documents in different versions of LibreOffice (when a color of the palette has been updated in-between). Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [libreoffice-design] Change application background [was: How to contribute ?]
Hi Rahul, all, Rahul Prasad schrieb: [..] * I was thinking of a nice background instead of a static colour. You can find some of my design here http://rahulprasad.com/public/libreOffice/writer/ Although design is not very appealing, but I am sure people will come come up with better design.* This idea has already been presented some time ago in the OOo UX project, but has not been implemented by now (AFAIK). I can't find the proposal right now, but I'm quite sure, Christoph knows where to find it. As our structure is different from the OOo project, it is much more likely that your ideas might become implemented. What you need is a developer interested in adding a "choose background color/image"-feature to the product. I'm forwarding this mail to the developer list, CC'ing you, so you should get their replies even if you didn't subscribe to this list via http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice I don't know if this feature is easy or hard to implement, but perhaps it can be added to the list of "easy hacks": http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Easy_Hacks ... where developer can pick it. Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [PATCH] Standard-color-palette-updates
Hi Kami, all, Christoph Noack schrieb: Hi Kami! Am Freitag, den 07.01.2011, 10:54 +0100 schrieb Kálmán „KAMI” Szalai: Hi Christoph, Bernhard, LibO Gurus, Then I provide patch for removing colors from main palette, and create/update a separated palette. Is it okay? That would more than okay, that would be great! :-) Same from my side: This would be the best implementation of the LibO branding colors! Perhaps you can keep the descriptive name Christoph provided: LibreOffice_Initial-Branding-Colors.soc or add the year for a clear distinction from future branding colors: LibreOffice_Initial-Branding-Colors_2010.soc Best regards and thanks again! Bernhard [...] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding#Resources_3 ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Forwarding cell grid question
Hi Christoph, Ferenc, all Christoph Noack schrieb: Hi Ferenc, all, forwarding to libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org ... There has been a question on the design team mailing list concerning the cell grid - it seems to be drawn in the background, thus, it vanishes if people apply a background color (see picture link below). I don't know whether this is intentional, a bug, ... so I though it's better to ask you. From my UX point-of-view, the grid should be shown on-top. This has been chosen intentionally "for compatibility with other spreadsheet programs" ... except OpenOffice.org, I assume ... "There have been many requests for this feature from those users who use Calc to design input forms; to remove grid lines in selected areas. When designing forms inside spreadsheet, grid lines look very ugly." With target LibO 3.3.1 this feature should be customizable. Please have a look at https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30800 for details. From my personal POV most users add colored backgrounds in order to differ between areas instead of creating input forms, therefore I'd like to see the previous behavior as default and the hidden grid lines as selectable option. But perhaps there might be UX survey data about that question... Best regards Bernhard Thanks in advance! Cheers, Christoph PS: I'll moderate answers to des...@libreoffice... Am Donnerstag, den 06.01.2011, 17:38 +0100 schrieb Ferenc Gyenezs: Hi! My question is, is there any way to turn the default cell border always-on-top / show even, when the cell got a background color? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2842728/grid.jpg I really want to leave OOCalc alone, but i use a lot of cell coloring, and "this" feature is annoys me. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [PATCH] Standard-color-palette-updates
Hi Kami, all, Kálmán „KAMI” Szalai schrieb: Hi All, Some colors of LibO are already part of palette, I just wanted to update it to follow the latest colors in wiki. If not required to provide LibO colors with the product (as a main or separated palette) then I we can leave the current situation or roll back. I would like to provide these colors but this is one opinion :o) My personal opinion is near to Christoph's position: We can't grant that the present LibO colors will stay the official branding colors when the community based branding will be developed (planned for LibO 3.5). Changing colors while keeping their names is a no-go IMHO, because this would lead to modified documents when opening them with different versions of LibO. As Christoph mentions, the LibO colors are relevant for all the people trying to create documents and artwork following the present LibO branding, but these people are a minority against all our standard users. Therefore I would love to see these colors in an additional palette, but not in the main palette (perhaps except the main color "LibreOffice_Green1"). Best regards Bernhard PS: If we provide the colors, we should ship the final version you got from the wiki - thanks for your work on this topic! ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] online registration menu element -> 404
Hi Kendy, all Jan Holesovsky schrieb: [...] But how exactly do you mean it with enabling the online registration menu - by an user action, or during the build? I'd say the best thing would be to get rid of that completely, and remove all the related code... I don't know how much code will have to be touched to completely get rid of that feature. But there already has been a thread on the marketing list (IIRC) asking for an improved user feedback in future - probably quite helpful for marketing and UX. If such a feature can be based on the present code, I don't know if it is reasonable to remove it completely. Best regards Bernhard PS: Every information sent from the user to any external instance will have to be approved by the user - nobody on our lists expressed an opinion towards "calling home" silently. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [PATCH] Standard-color-palette-updates
Hi Marc, * Marc Paré schrieb: Le 2010-12-27 07:19, Christoph Noack a écrit : [...] I thought the original color palette won't be affected at the moment, since the branding colors are: * not that long lasting (belonging to the initial branding, but will be replaced with the community branding once we start to develop that with the wider community) * are specific to a small group (the LibO community) Thus, my understanding was to ship the original color palette file like some others - being optional and not affecting the default palette. Our "normal" users don't have that much benefit creating stuff with that few (hand picked) colors. [...] I am a little confused. Should this not pass by the design list first? Not necessarily - the decision about "Initial Branding" now and "Community Branding"to be created (probably with new color palette) between LibO 3.3 and LibO 3.5 has been discussed there already. Some of the design and marketing teams are already using the palette given on the wiki pages. Does this affect the palette there? Not at the moment. Only when the new community based branding will be finished, the palette will have to be updated. As we can't say at the moment, how much of the initial branding will survive this change, it is quite likely that most of the marketing materials will not last for more than two .x releases. Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] [ Libreoffice ] [ UX ] [ PATCH ] EasyHacks 3.27 Change Sheet copy process
Hi all sorry: once more I didn't "reply all", just "reply" as on the other LibO lists... here is what I sent to Christoph alone: Hi Christoph, all, just a very short comment - before I forget it... Christoph Noack schrieb: > [...] >* Think about the "Insert Before" thing ... it is not that obvious > what this means. Is there any way to make this more > understandable? Move the "Insert Before" list below the new name area and move the new name by mouse or arrows up and down in the list. This would allow to place the new sheet where the user wants it without thinking about "before" and "after". Copying your sketch... +-+ | Move / Copy Sheet: $sheetname | +-+ | Action -- + |(o) Move | |( ) Copy | | | | Location and Name --- | |To Document | |[ $documentname (Current Document) |\/] | | | |New Name | |[ $sheetname 2] | | | |Place to insert | |+-+ | | /\ | Sheet 1 | | | || | $sheetname 2 | | | \/ | Sheet 2 | | || Sheet 3 | | |+-+ | | | +-+ | [ Help ] [ OK ] [ Cancel ] | +-+ Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] The download link still shows Beta?
Sorry for not including the list in my reply last night. As this list behaves differently to all the other OOo / LibO mailing lists I've been subscribed, I didn't use "reply all", but "reply", so my mail has only been sent to Thorsten... --- original mail --- Hi Yi Fan, Thorsten, all, thanks for the reminder! Thorsten Behrens schrieb: > Yi Fan Jiang wrote: >> The links here looks a bit strange with 'Beta' while we have been in RC phase for some while: >> >> http://www.documentfoundation.org/download/ >> >> The word seems embedded in the picture...(from css) >> > Hi Yifan, > > yep, good catch, this was reported as > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=32142 > > (I personally think it would be nice to change, but not an absolute > necessity, as long as we're in rc phase). Even if I thought, we would no longer need these buttons, when the Silverstripe LibreOffice website is online, I found out that this assumption is false: If we don't remove the download links from the www.documentfoundation.org website (or redirect the page to libreoffice.org), these buttons will be visible and reached by our users. Christoph Noack already provided an updated source file in his upload to the wiki: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:TDF-Website-Initial-Design-Package.zip The only thing I had to do was to export the download buttons to .png and upload them to the issue. I don't know who is maintaining the foundation website at the moment (Michael, Thorsten, Christian?), so I can't ping them to update the graphics for the download buttons. Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] LibO download size [was: Comments on RC1]
Hi Michael, all, sorry for stepping in so late - my previous subscription to the libreoff...@freedesktop list didn't work (and I didn't have the time to search the archives) so I don't know if this has already been discussed... Michael Meeks schrieb: > [...] The rational here was to ensure that everyone's language is > treated equally. Incidentally, as an aside - the problem space is not > restricted only to single-locale users: many corporate users (for > example) want to deploy it worldwide, and have a single image that has > localizations for ~everywhere. I don't know if the rationale of not preferring English (as international communication language) in our builds is too important to provide the two-files-download version (English main package plus lang-pack) as an alternative aside the multi-package. If we have enough server space for: - multi-installer - EN-installer (better would be "no-language"-installer, but this will probably not work) - language packs in all languages I'd propose to go this way for LibO 3.3.0. I can't imagine that anybody here has so much time to discuss this topic now - and at least for our first release we should provide something people can handle: The multi-installer for people in need for one single package download in their language The EN-installer and lang-pack for others with main focus on the download size willing to download and install two packages one after another. This would have to be supported by the download script (or at least mentioned on the download page), but I think the website team can cope with it... Of course there is much room for improvement - but I think this can wait until the release of LibO 3.3.0. > Best regards Bernhard ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
