-> ESC agenda
Hi Lubos, Julian, all, I'd really like to encourage you not to pre-emptively give up on the governance that we do have =) It seems clear that some people object to this change; and it seems clear that there was not a full discussion that reflected that at the ESC: On 18/03/2021 18:17, julien2412 wrote: > No need to come since it's easier for me to write (no schedule > constraints for example) and the migration will be done anyway, no > need to worry My goal was just to thank a lot Luboš and to > provide arguments against the migration. Nevertheless, I already knew > the battle, battle against this censorship (I weigh my words) was > lost. Well - if you feel strongly; I'd encourage you to come and make your point - or for at least someone to speak out. From my perspective it is -really- important that people can speak up and say what they think. Ideally in a constructive and as balanced a way as possible, avoiding overly emotive or simplified constructions - that makes it easier for everyone to be heard. I really don't think there is a foregone conclusion. On 18/03/2021 20:04, Luboš Luňák wrote: > in order to make the discussion somewhat more constructive, I have > an alternative proposal on how to resolve the problem. I'd love you to come and propose that. I'm also aware that some people are concerned that this turns into a much wider and more concerning project than it is ie. the slippery slope argument. I'm not so convinced about that - but its easy to avoid that by hearing Thorsten's bigger-picture plan here. So - thanks for raising this; I'd really like to end the thread here - and take it to the next ESC meeting. Miklos - can you put it on the agenda ? Thanks, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, GM Collabora Productivity Hangout: mejme...@gmail.com, Skype: mmeeks (M) +44 7795 666 147 - timezone usually UK / Europe ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: SKIA on Windows Roadmap (ESC agenda item)
On Saturday 25 of April 2020, julien2412 wrote: > 1) if Luboš doesn't want or can't anymore fix the Skia bugs, whatever the > reasons, who will be able to fix these bugs? Hopefully anyone capable of doing it, which shouldn't be that hard. I think the Skia VCL code is a well-commented and high-quality code compared to the usual OOo/LO bar (which is not being pompous but rather being sad about the general state of some things). But I'm obviously biased, so the only real way to find out is if somebody tries it. > Indeed, 95% of Skia patches are from Luboš. So for me it's a risk. > Ideally there should be someone not from Collabora, nothing against this > company but LO shouldn't rely exclusively from it for this very central > part. But that doesn't depend on me or Collabora. That depends on somebody doing that and we have no control over that. > So I think we should keep thepossibility to revert the default option for > 7.0.1/7.0.2 just in case. Yes, of course. There's always the fallback solution of just disabling it back. > 3) Is there some documentation to facilitate newcomers or not LO newcomers > devs to work on this? > (I found nothing in https://wiki.documentfoundation.org) There's nothing on the Wiki (and I personally do not see the point of having such information there). There's a README in the sources, currently somewhat short but I have a TODO item to add some general items such as basic debugging tricks. The rest of things should be visible from the code and difficult or non-obvious things are either commented in the relevant place or in commit messages that only say what but also why. I expect people capable of fixing other VCL backends shouldn't have a hard time doing the same with the Skia code. -- Luboš Luňák l.lu...@collabora.com ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: SKIA on Windows Roadmap (ESC agenda item)
Hello, I had commented tdf#132323 but here are some points which should be dealt with: 1) if Luboš doesn't want or can't anymore fix the Skia bugs, whatever the reasons, who will be able to fix these bugs? Indeed, 95% of Skia patches are from Luboš. So for me it's a risk. Ideally there should be someone not from Collabora, nothing against this company but LO shouldn't rely exclusively from it for this very central part. 2) Even if Luboš does a great job fixing Skia bugs, there are only 6 opened now on about 50 bugs declared on tdf#129062 (Meta Skia). However it seems only LO people declared Skia bugs therefore I expect far more bugs when it'll be default in 7.0. So I think we should keep the possibility to revert the default option for 7.0.1/7.0.2 just in case. For those who would consider this as very hypothetical, just consider Firebird experience. 3) Is there some documentation to facilitate newcomers or not LO newcomers devs to work on this? (I found nothing in https://wiki.documentfoundation.org) Julien -- Sent from: http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/Dev-f1639786.html ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: SKIA on Windows Roadmap (ESC agenda item)
Hi Miklos, I'm rather 'out of the loop'. The DEV/ESC department is bit of black-box for me. The minutes don't contain much background/ 'in depth' information about content of the discussion. And the minutes are open for interpretation. Something like: + Enable skia by default on master and Windows, replacing GL (Lubos) Could also mean temporarily, only on master. Depending on the intention Anyhow this was more or less a follow up of bug 132323. * Julien had some concerns about setting SKIA default; maybe misread it.. * And I suggested to move OpenGL and GDI rendering to Expert configuration Also follow by 'enthusiasm' and objections *My central question: *Is there a time-table for moving GDI/OpenGL to Expert configuration? Actively testing and supporting multiple backends is quite some work DEV as QA level. Is this a Skia bug. Raster or Vulkan, or both. Also in OpenGL? Also in GDI? With or without Hardware acceleration.. Bug 132323 comment 6 suggested that those settings Options -> View where an UI issue. However, being able to configure the backend at a common place is suggests these are actively supported, IMHO Regards, Telesto Message: 15 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 09:12:39 +0200 From: Miklos Vajna To: libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org Subject: Re: SKIA on Windows Roadmap (ESC agenda item) Message-ID: <20200424071238.go6...@collabora.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi Telesto, On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 09:16:53PM +0200, Telesto wrote: Skia should be topic/ agenda item for ESC team. There needs be some kind of roadmap/ timeline/ vision: Did you see the recent agendas / minutes, sent out to this very list each week? Skia is on the table each week. ?* Skia the default for 7.0 release on Windows? This was already discussed at great length, Skia is currently on by default on Windows on master (towards 7.0). Is there some kind of conflict that the ESC has to resolve here? I'm not sure I understand the problem you try to solve. Regards, Miklos Op 23-4-2020 om 21:16 schreef Telesto: Hi all, Skia should be topic/ agenda item for ESC team. There needs be some kind of roadmap/ timeline/ vision: * Skia the default for 7.0 release on Windows? * What about the future GDI (incl. Hardware Acceleration)/OpenGL Windows backend? Should those be phased out? If so, what's the intended time-table at this point in time: - Active support of the other backend (bug fixing) - Passively supporting the other backends; so being available? ** When do we move the setting to Expert configuration ** When should the old code be removed * What is future of Skia for Linux/Mac? What does this mean for other backends? Cairo/ X11... - A number of the base QA members use Linux. Is there backend comparable to Skia available; using 'the same' code path? * QA concerns (based on: bug 132323) - Firebird experience: flood of bugs after removing from experimental - Harfbuzz experience: quite a number number of performances issues at the beginning - One developer for Skia/ Single point of failure? Personal vision: * Active support for multiple backends are hard to maintain at QA and DEV level, so less is more. Backend options should be 'invisible' as fast as reasonable possible. Only objection: different backends have different code paths; can be an alternative. Example: Skia XOR issue (affecting Raster & Vulkan); without GDI no way out. * Skia looks promising; not seeing major problems. They should be rather obvious to see. Everybody uses the UI. So no Firebird experience * Passive support should not be GUI advertised for to long. Bugs tend to sneak in, while everybody else is using the default. So settings for backends should move Expert configuration pretty fast. It should be decided at ESC level; it's not UI-only issue. It's also affecting QA & DEV * Removing code. Should be hold off for a while. Second next major release. The old layout engine was removed a little to soon for my taste. Can be useful as fall-back. * Prevent a dependence on a single developer; there needs to be a 'backup' developer who wants to step in, if needed. What about documentation? * Developer available to squash the initial bunch of Skia related bugs after release (to assure the QA department) . So everything is 'back to normal' at 7.0.2 . If Skia contains bugs at 7.0 so be it. LibreOffice fresh can contain bugs. Firebird lacked a 'testerbase' while under development and support afterwards didn't win awards either. * OpenGL. Drop active support with 7.0. Moving to expert configuration with LibreOffice 7.1. Code removal at 7.3. Deprecation should be mentioned in the Release Notes * GDI: Active support dropped at 7.2. Passive support until 7.4. Moving to expert configuration at 8.0. Mention this roadmap in the Rele
Re: SKIA on Windows Roadmap (ESC agenda item)
Hi Telesto, On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 09:16:53PM +0200, Telesto wrote: > Skia should be topic/ agenda item for ESC team. There needs be some kind of > roadmap/ timeline/ vision: Did you see the recent agendas / minutes, sent out to this very list each week? Skia is on the table each week. > * Skia the default for 7.0 release on Windows? This was already discussed at great length, Skia is currently on by default on Windows on master (towards 7.0). Is there some kind of conflict that the ESC has to resolve here? I'm not sure I understand the problem you try to solve. Regards, Miklos signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
SKIA on Windows Roadmap (ESC agenda item)
Hi all, Skia should be topic/ agenda item for ESC team. There needs be some kind of roadmap/ timeline/ vision: * Skia the default for 7.0 release on Windows? * What about the future GDI (incl. Hardware Acceleration)/OpenGL Windows backend? Should those be phased out? If so, what's the intended time-table at this point in time: - Active support of the other backend (bug fixing) - Passively supporting the other backends; so being available? ** When do we move the setting to Expert configuration ** When should the old code be removed * What is future of Skia for Linux/Mac? What does this mean for other backends? Cairo/ X11... - A number of the base QA members use Linux. Is there backend comparable to Skia available; using 'the same' code path? * QA concerns (based on: bug 132323) - Firebird experience: flood of bugs after removing from experimental - Harfbuzz experience: quite a number number of performances issues at the beginning - One developer for Skia/ Single point of failure? Personal vision: * Active support for multiple backends are hard to maintain at QA and DEV level, so less is more. Backend options should be 'invisible' as fast as reasonable possible. Only objection: different backends have different code paths; can be an alternative. Example: Skia XOR issue (affecting Raster & Vulkan); without GDI no way out. * Skia looks promising; not seeing major problems. They should be rather obvious to see. Everybody uses the UI. So no Firebird experience * Passive support should not be GUI advertised for to long. Bugs tend to sneak in, while everybody else is using the default. So settings for backends should move Expert configuration pretty fast. It should be decided at ESC level; it's not UI-only issue. It's also affecting QA & DEV * Removing code. Should be hold off for a while. Second next major release. The old layout engine was removed a little to soon for my taste. Can be useful as fall-back. * Prevent a dependence on a single developer; there needs to be a 'backup' developer who wants to step in, if needed. What about documentation? * Developer available to squash the initial bunch of Skia related bugs after release (to assure the QA department) . So everything is 'back to normal' at 7.0.2 . If Skia contains bugs at 7.0 so be it. LibreOffice fresh can contain bugs. Firebird lacked a 'testerbase' while under development and support afterwards didn't win awards either. * OpenGL. Drop active support with 7.0. Moving to expert configuration with LibreOffice 7.1. Code removal at 7.3. Deprecation should be mentioned in the Release Notes * GDI: Active support dropped at 7.2. Passive support until 7.4. Moving to expert configuration at 8.0. Mention this roadmap in the Release Notes Regards, Telesto ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
