Re: Are there ideas for client-server model.

[Wols Lists]

On 18/07/21 10:58, Stef Bon wrote:
> 
> 
> Op za 17 jul. 2021 om 15:54 schreef Marc  >:
> 
> >
> > I'm willing to work on this, but since Collabora has already
> written an
> > online server, is it possible to port that code to libreoffice?
> >
> 
> 
> I very much would like to see that the 'collabora' code returns back
> to a libre office repository. I think that lots of committers there
> are would prefer working on the libre office repo, instead of the
> collabra. I think it is even weird that collabra people are posting
> video's on youtube and calling them libre office online. 
> 
> 
> I agree. It looks more like a fork to me they created. And actually
> creating a breach/distance with the original libreoffice code and community.
> This is not done as I see it. But I have to be frank: I haven't studied
> the code of LibreOffice and the code written by Colabora yet.
> 
And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you'll find a LARGE minority of
the code contributed to LibreOffice, and GoOO before it, was written by
people who now work for Collabora.

You're right saying it's a fork, and it was done to create a distance
from the LibreOffice code. But it's a bit difficult to create a breach
with the community, seeing as Collabora are - and have been since before
even LibreOffice existed - a very big part of the LibreOffice community.

It's unfortunately the age-old problem - how are the contributors to
Open Source supposed to eat, if they don't find some way of monetising
their contributions ... (and if they don't eat, LibreOffice will die for
lack of contributors!!!)

Cheers,
Wol
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Re: Are there ideas for client-server model.

[Marc]

> do you mean me being a Collabora developer? No!

No Tor is ;)

> Can you suggest me something to start understanding how LibreOffice
> works, with the different "modules": one for open and save, one for the
> gui, one for the editing, etc?
 
I am not much help in this area. I wanted to test libre office online, a year 
ago or so, and was here discouraged to work with it and directed to collabra. 
Did not look at it since then.

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Re: Are there ideas for client-server model.

[Stef Bon]

Hi Marc,

do you mean me being a Collabora developer? No!
I'm interested in making LibreOffice act as server, offering connections
to the local intranet (possibly Internet), not using a webserver but
"invent" a new protocol, something like Open Document Network Protocol.

But where do I start? I'm a C developer, and almost always having trouble
reading C++. So that's not a good start, but maybe the code is ok to read.
Can you suggest me something to start understanding how LibreOffice works,
with the different "modules": one for open and save, one for the gui, one
for the editing, etc?

Thanks in advance,

Stef Bon
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RE: Are there ideas for client-server model.

[Marc]

Don't you rather commit to the libre office online repo than a collabra repo? 
Now you are commiting code with text 'Collabra' to the libre office trunk, 
which looks 'weird' to me.

If you are a collabra developer than keep collabra code in your collabra trunk, 
and make sure that if you contribute to the libre office online it does not 
have collabra stuff in there. Can you imagine what would happen if I would 
start declaring variable names 'CocaCola' into the source of the magento 
project.
I would almost think there are totally no coding and contributing guidelines 
for this libre office online project.

I trust the libre office organisation for future stability more that collabra 
organization. I guess the libre office group is also much bigger, the brand 
'libre office' is also bigger. 
If there would be a legal person actively protecting the libre office brand, I 
would say collabra is going to have some problems piggybacking the online 
project like this.

@Stef maybe first thing to do is search and replace on 'collabra' in the source 
;)

> 
>   But I have to be frank: I haven't studied the code of LibreOffice
> and the code written by Colabora yet.
> 
> 
> I would never have guessed.
> 
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Re: Are there ideas for client-server model.

[Tor Lillqvist]

> But I have to be frank: I haven't studied the code of LibreOffice and the
> code written by Colabora yet.
>

I would never have guessed.

--tml
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Re: Are there ideas for client-server model.

[Stef Bon]

Op za 17 jul. 2021 om 15:54 schreef Marc :

> >
> > I'm willing to work on this, but since Collabora has already written an
> > online server, is it possible to port that code to libreoffice?
> >
>
>
> I very much would like to see that the 'collabora' code returns back to a
> libre office repository. I think that lots of committers there are would
> prefer working on the libre office repo, instead of the collabra. I think
> it is even weird that collabra people are posting video's on youtube and
> calling them libre office online.
>

I agree. It looks more like a fork to me they created. And actually
creating a breach/distance with the original libreoffice code and community.
This is not done as I see it. But I have to be frank: I haven't studied the
code of LibreOffice and the code written by Colabora yet.

Stef
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RE: Are there ideas for client-server model.

[Marc]

> 
> I'm willing to work on this, but since Collabora has already written an
> online server, is it possible to port that code to libreoffice?
> 


I very much would like to see that the 'collabora' code returns back to a libre 
office repository. I think that lots of committers there are would prefer 
working on the libre office repo, instead of the collabra. I think it is even 
weird that collabra people are posting video's on youtube and calling them 
libre office online. So my blessing you have.


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Re: Are there ideas for client-server model.

[Stef Bon]

Hi all,

so to make this work I have to port code from de Online server created by
Collabora to Libreoffce?

My ideas:
- client server model, documents stay on server, clients get access based
upon the userid, their pk/private  and local  rules (ACL).
- there is a secure connection (SSH, Wireguard)
- client gets toolbars from server.
- user can chat text/video public and private with other users in same
domain.
- users can do things according to ACL's like create a document, read-
write and/or append, delete a document.
- client has a window to the document (a page). Users can work together at
the same time, not write to the same page and/or paragraph/sentence.
Readers can follow somebody else's writing though.

I'm working on a set of services (Open Secure Network Services) providing
all kinds of services over a secure connection (SSH based), like file
sharing sftp (I'm working on a smb client using libsmb2), text/video chat,
synchronization, git filesystem, backup. browse services like printers and
scanners and use them from network.

See: https://github.com/stefbon/OSNS

I'm willing to work on this, but since Collabora has already written an
online server, is it possible to port that code to libreoffice?

Stef
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Re: Are there ideas for client-server model.

[Stef Bon]

Op wo 14 jul. 2021 om 14:52 schreef Marc :

> But that is not libre office
>
>
>
Exactly.
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RE: Are there ideas for client-server model.

[Marc]

But that is not libre office



> -Original Message-
> From: LibreOffice  On Behalf
> Of Miklos Vajna
> Sent: Wednesday, 14 July 2021 11:03
> To: libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org
> Subject: Re: Are there ideas for client-server model.
> 
> Hi Stef,
> 
> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 09:32:10AM +0200, Stef Bon 
> wrote:
> > > What you describe sounds a lot like the functionality that the LOK
> API
> > > exposes. Online builds a c++ server on top of that, and then clients
> > > connect to that via websockets.
> >
> > Online? What do you mean with "online"?
> 
> https://collaboraonline.github.io/ which uses the LOK API and has a
> client-server model.
> 
> > > But core has a gtktiledviewer demo app
> > > that shows that that LOK API is not tied to web browsers. So either
> you
> > > could build something not-browser-based on top of the LOK API or
> build
> > > on top of Online's server piece, but your clients would be desktop
> apps,
> > > not browsers.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, does this example program read only or also write access?
> > Is editing possible?
> 
> Sure. If you build core.git, you can do 'bin/run gtktiledviewer' to try
> it out yourself. It runs in-process to help debugging, though.
> 
> > This client is a bit what I want, but still very far from the end
> goal.
> 
> Another example is the gtk app in online.git: that is also nominally a
> desktop app, but in fact it reuses the JS user interface from Online.
> 
> The bottom line is that the LOK API already provides collaborative
> editing, and if you want a client-server protocol, Online already has
> that, it would be probably a bit pointless to invent a parallel protocol
> which does the same. :-)
> 
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Re: Are there ideas for client-server model.

[Miklos Vajna]

Hi Stef,

On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 09:32:10AM +0200, Stef Bon  wrote:
> > What you describe sounds a lot like the functionality that the LOK API
> > exposes. Online builds a c++ server on top of that, and then clients
> > connect to that via websockets.
> 
> Online? What do you mean with "online"?

https://collaboraonline.github.io/ which uses the LOK API and has a
client-server model.

> > But core has a gtktiledviewer demo app
> > that shows that that LOK API is not tied to web browsers. So either you
> > could build something not-browser-based on top of the LOK API or build
> > on top of Online's server piece, but your clients would be desktop apps,
> > not browsers.
> >
> 
> Yes, does this example program read only or also write access?
> Is editing possible?

Sure. If you build core.git, you can do 'bin/run gtktiledviewer' to try
it out yourself. It runs in-process to help debugging, though.

> This client is a bit what I want, but still very far from the end goal.

Another example is the gtk app in online.git: that is also nominally a
desktop app, but in fact it reuses the JS user interface from Online.

The bottom line is that the LOK API already provides collaborative
editing, and if you want a client-server protocol, Online already has
that, it would be probably a bit pointless to invent a parallel protocol
which does the same. :-)

Regards,

Miklos
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Re: Are there ideas for client-server model.

[Miklos Vajna]

Hi Stef,

What you describe sounds a lot like the functionality that the LOK API
exposes. Online builds a c++ server on top of that, and then clients
connect to that via websockets. But core has a gtktiledviewer demo app
that shows that that LOK API is not tied to web browsers. So either you
could build something not-browser-based on top of the LOK API or build
on top of Online's server piece, but your clients would be desktop apps,
not browsers.

Regards,

Miklos
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Are there ideas for client-server model.

[Stef Bon]

Hi,

I 'm curious there have been attempts to make libreoffice work in
client-server model, without help of a web browser. I'm thinking of:

a client on the workspation shows a window on the document, one page,
and some lines before and after for caching), getting information from
server which fonts, toolbars, modules and addons are supported. Client
has never the whole document, only a part to show to user.

a server which reads the document from disk, and listens on socket for
incoming clients.
After connection a custom protocol (something like Open Document
Network Protocol) to provide the client the necessary and requested
info and data to offer the user a compete interface, and provide a
user a start window.
Server can handle more than one user in one document at the time, as
long as the different client windows do not overlap. (client has write
access in this window, not outside it).
Server offers in combination with other collaboration software (like
chatting, and overview of users working in the same project and/or
document, like messages a user has left/entered the document etc).

If there is not such initiative I want to start one.

Stef
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