Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Hi Mike Some good points, as always. Regardless of the version numbering system, it looks like one imperative is to get people to update before their current version falls out of support. While I don't rush to install the latest version on release day I don't like to rely on my distribution's repository as it often lags well behind. I download and install from the LO website. I often get a message within the LO UI informing me a newer version is available, but I still have to perform an uninstall followed by a full installation from .deb files using dpkg to perform that upgrade. I may be naive in asking this, but is it feasible to develop a means of performing an upgrade from within the application? If it were just a matter of clicking on a dialog then sitting back for a couple of minutes or so, followed perhaps by a reboot, there would be little incentive NOT to upgrade. Cheers Nige LibreOffice - Free and open source office suite: LibreOffice Website<https://www.libreoffice.org/> Respects your privacy, and gives you back control over your data From: Mike Saunders Sent: 07 April 2023 09:23 To: Eyal Rozenberg ; TDF Devs ; TDF Marketing ; TDF Design Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8? Hello, On 06.04.23 22:12, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: > > Great, what's the problem? Why should we be in a rush to get existing > users to upgrade from 7.5 to 7.6? Well, one argument is that we have very limited resources to support two branches. LibreOffice 7.5 won't be around forever, so at some point we'll need to push people to update to 7.6/8.0, as the previous version won't be maintained and could potentially have security issues. On Reddit, social media etc. we see lots of posts from people using ancient versions of LibreOffice, and have no idea that there are newer major releases. There are various reasons for that, but IMO we need to keep people up-to-date. Not for quarterly sales targets as a CompuGlobalHyperMegaCorp, as you say, but because it's better for us all in the project when people are using maintained and supported versions. > So, > we should be at least skeptical about copying MS behavior regarding MSO > in which their marketing wing is calling the shots. Agreed that we shouldn't copy problematic behaviour, but if our goal is to raise awareness of LibreOffice as much as possible, and get it into as many hands as possible (and I know not everyone agrees with that), then we have to be aware of the market in which we're operating, and competing. IMO, it's a lot like the whole "using proprietary services to reach users" debate. Arguably, as a FOSS project, we should avoid closed platforms like Twitter and Facebook. But we make a compromise and are active on those platforms, because they are very effective for reaching new users and communicating with them. So I think our marketing has to balance these things. If we only care about the technical side, we could use XTerm-style numbering (just keep bumping a single number with every release). But as if we want to reach Microsoft Office users and make a compelling argument to them, our marketing has to fit. And I know that Italo has a ton of experience and knowledge in this field, so his perspective on this is very valuable IMO. Cheers, Mike -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.libreoffice.org%2Fget-help%2Fmailing-lists%2Fhow-to-unsubscribe%2F=05%7C01%7C%7C8c4f5852fc654f925d1808db37418a8f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638164526863225203%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=HGW4ewrBhiMjRKoFQaXXZKQMjE1QKzUgOMlEtQSfPWw%3D=0<https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/> Posting guidelines + more: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.documentfoundation.org%2FNetiquette=05%7C01%7C%7C8c4f5852fc654f925d1808db37418a8f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638164526863225203%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=G%2F3CWg3OIlNGXe4JHttLKQnhPPFrnkg8sLKwOEV6lIo%3D=0<https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette> List archive: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flistarchives.libreoffice.org%2Fglobal%2Fmarketing%2F=05%7C01%7C%7C8c4f5852fc654f925d1808db37418a8f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638164526863225203%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=wbgPN5dPaHSahLm7ro0McEEMIeeGAZumvbNc4tVS7JE%3D=0<https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/> Privacy Policy: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.documentfoundation.org%2Fp
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Hi everyone, After reading all the messages in this topic, and learning how experienced marketing experts are in the team, I have the following humble thoughts. 1. I am a techie person who is far from being a marketing expert. Therefore, take my opinion with a grain of salt. 2. For most of the users, simple version numbers like X.x versus version Y.y don't say anything. Nobody remembers what the difference was between LO 5.0 and 6.0, but what other FOSS projects use, like Thunderbird 103 or Firefox 111, is also totally meaningless to a normie. A version number like MSOffice'97 or JetBrains IntelliJ 2023 tells much more. People may know such a program has features we used 26 years ago or just recently. Therefore, I think a year based version number would make more sense. I feel LibreOffice 2023 sounds much more modern than LO 8.0. It has no sneaky marketing-bias, it is a factual and meaningful information. Again, this is just what _I_ think. If the decision will be different, I will be totally OK with it, I leave the decision to experts but wanted to add my two cents. With regards, Csongor On 7/04/2023 18:23, Mike Saunders wrote: Hello, On 06.04.23 22:12, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: Great, what's the problem? Why should we be in a rush to get existing users to upgrade from 7.5 to 7.6? Well, one argument is that we have very limited resources to support two branches. LibreOffice 7.5 won't be around forever, so at some point we'll need to push people to update to 7.6/8.0, as the previous version won't be maintained and could potentially have security issues. On Reddit, social media etc. we see lots of posts from people using ancient versions of LibreOffice, and have no idea that there are newer major releases. There are various reasons for that, but IMO we need to keep people up-to-date. Not for quarterly sales targets as a CompuGlobalHyperMegaCorp, as you say, but because it's better for us all in the project when people are using maintained and supported versions. So, we should be at least skeptical about copying MS behavior regarding MSO in which their marketing wing is calling the shots. Agreed that we shouldn't copy problematic behaviour, but if our goal is to raise awareness of LibreOffice as much as possible, and get it into as many hands as possible (and I know not everyone agrees with that), then we have to be aware of the market in which we're operating, and competing. IMO, it's a lot like the whole "using proprietary services to reach users" debate. Arguably, as a FOSS project, we should avoid closed platforms like Twitter and Facebook. But we make a compromise and are active on those platforms, because they are very effective for reaching new users and communicating with them. So I think our marketing has to balance these things. If we only care about the technical side, we could use XTerm-style numbering (just keep bumping a single number with every release). But as if we want to reach Microsoft Office users and make a compelling argument to them, our marketing has to fit. And I know that Italo has a ton of experience and knowledge in this field, so his perspective on this is very valuable IMO. Cheers, Mike
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Hi y'all, Mike Saunders wrote: > Well, one argument is that we have very limited resources to support two > branches. LibreOffice 7.5 won't be around forever, so at some point we'll > need to push people to update to 7.6/8.0, as the previous version won't be > maintained and could potentially have security issues. > I know this is missing the point on purpose: but just to state that for the above problem, there's a technical solution called auto-update (which is on the tender project list since a while). > [means to an end] > > IMO, it's a lot like the whole "using proprietary services to reach users" > debate. Arguably, as a FOSS project, we should avoid closed platforms like > Twitter and Facebook. But we make a compromise and are active on those > platforms, because they are very effective for reaching new users and > communicating with them. > And I agree with that notion in general. The most obvious utilitarian argument this project is making, is to invest a ton of effort into supporting proprietary platforms like Windows and macOS, for our **main** user base. Cheers, -- Thorsten signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Hello, On 06.04.23 22:12, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: Great, what's the problem? Why should we be in a rush to get existing users to upgrade from 7.5 to 7.6? Well, one argument is that we have very limited resources to support two branches. LibreOffice 7.5 won't be around forever, so at some point we'll need to push people to update to 7.6/8.0, as the previous version won't be maintained and could potentially have security issues. On Reddit, social media etc. we see lots of posts from people using ancient versions of LibreOffice, and have no idea that there are newer major releases. There are various reasons for that, but IMO we need to keep people up-to-date. Not for quarterly sales targets as a CompuGlobalHyperMegaCorp, as you say, but because it's better for us all in the project when people are using maintained and supported versions. So, we should be at least skeptical about copying MS behavior regarding MSO in which their marketing wing is calling the shots. Agreed that we shouldn't copy problematic behaviour, but if our goal is to raise awareness of LibreOffice as much as possible, and get it into as many hands as possible (and I know not everyone agrees with that), then we have to be aware of the market in which we're operating, and competing. IMO, it's a lot like the whole "using proprietary services to reach users" debate. Arguably, as a FOSS project, we should avoid closed platforms like Twitter and Facebook. But we make a compromise and are active on those platforms, because they are very effective for reaching new users and communicating with them. So I think our marketing has to balance these things. If we only care about the technical side, we could use XTerm-style numbering (just keep bumping a single number with every release). But as if we want to reach Microsoft Office users and make a compelling argument to them, our marketing has to fit. And I know that Italo has a ton of experience and knowledge in this field, so his perspective on this is very valuable IMO. Cheers, Mike
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
So, I agree with the proposal. L8 could be seen as a new start and not an achievement... new developers mean new functionalities, evolving organization. I think we can build something around that. Marketed as the mix of different knowledge as distinguishing elements. Regards, Régis Le ven. 7 avr. 2023 à 00:14, Italo Vignoli a écrit : > I have written that developers have a different mindset from marketing > people. I have never said that developers are dumb people, and I have > never even thought this. > > On 06/04/23 23:45, Regis Perdreau wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > So if i understand correctly, developers are dumb people, talking only to > > its computer, and marketer have the privilege to speak to real user... > > Well, all the day, i speak to real user, and all say that marketers talk > > non sense about Microsoft compatibility... > > I wonder how to solve daily cognitive dissonnance > > * > > < > https://context.reverso.net/traduction/anglais-francais/cognitive+dissonance > >* > > Just kidding > > > > Cheers, > > Régis Perdreau > > > > > > > > Le jeu. 6 avr. 2023 à 23:00, Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco < > gbpach...@gmail.com> > > a écrit : > > > >> Hi, Nigel, Ben, Eyal, all! > >> > >> Let me add some comments. :) > >> > >> For sure, the current approach is a requirement for our internal > >> development organization, as Ben noted. Also, it was really important in > >> the first years of LibreOffice/TDF, when we used it to demonstrate we > were > >> ahead of Apache OpenOffice for the users and the strong > project/community > >> we were building. > >> > >> On the other hand, for the current moment of LibreOffice as a project > and > >> product, I think we can do more or different things. Nigel wrote > >> exactly what I mean about 'boring' from the user perspective: most of > the > >> users don't care about minor changes. > >> > >> So, I think, now, we should decide about releases with a Marketing > >> perspective and the number 8 could be a first step to do it, even > without > >> big changes. > >> > >> Could it mean we will do a marketing trick? > >> > >> I think no, because we will be transparent with our users as we always > >> have been. If the release won't have big improvements, we won't talk > about > >> big improvements. > >> > >> Why release a version without big improvements? > >> > >> That is the other point: I don't think we should focus only on big > code > >> improvements to use major version numbers (or even version names). We > >> aren't only a product. We are a project and community. Indeed, the > released > >> product is our final work but a major version can also be used to spread > >> (or celebrate) the maturity of the product/project/community. This is a > >> different approach than paid software/non FLOSS. This is what I mean > with > >> consolidation. > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Apr 6, 2023 at 8:22 AM Nigel Verity > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Gustavo > >>> > >>> This is a very good point. > >>> > >>> If I see that some software I use regularly has gone from 7.5 to 7.6, > >>> say, I wouldn't rush to upgrade unless I knew it fixed a problem that > >>> affected me. I'm pretty sure that I would upgrade from 7.5 to to 8.0 > far > >>> more quickly, if for no other reason that the psychological one of > wanting > >>> to be using what my head tells me must be an improvement over my > current > >>> version. > >>> > >>> Of course release notes are available to determine what really has > >>> changed but I rather suspect that most users never read them. > >>> > >>> The discussion of the different motivators for development and > marketing > >>> people is very interesting. When I was a developer neither I nor > anybody in > >>> my teams was ever let anywhere near sales activities - and I think for > very > >>> good reasons. > >>> > >>> Cheers > >>> > >>> Nige > >>> > >>> > >>> * LibreOffice - Free and open source office suite: LibreOffice Website > >>> <https://www.libreoffice.org/> * > >>> * Respects your privacy, and gives you back control over your data* > >>> -- > >&g
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
I have written that developers have a different mindset from marketing people. I have never said that developers are dumb people, and I have never even thought this. On 06/04/23 23:45, Regis Perdreau wrote: Hi all, So if i understand correctly, developers are dumb people, talking only to its computer, and marketer have the privilege to speak to real user... Well, all the day, i speak to real user, and all say that marketers talk non sense about Microsoft compatibility... I wonder how to solve daily cognitive dissonnance * <https://context.reverso.net/traduction/anglais-francais/cognitive+dissonance>* Just kidding Cheers, Régis Perdreau Le jeu. 6 avr. 2023 à 23:00, Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco a écrit : Hi, Nigel, Ben, Eyal, all! Let me add some comments. :) For sure, the current approach is a requirement for our internal development organization, as Ben noted. Also, it was really important in the first years of LibreOffice/TDF, when we used it to demonstrate we were ahead of Apache OpenOffice for the users and the strong project/community we were building. On the other hand, for the current moment of LibreOffice as a project and product, I think we can do more or different things. Nigel wrote exactly what I mean about 'boring' from the user perspective: most of the users don't care about minor changes. So, I think, now, we should decide about releases with a Marketing perspective and the number 8 could be a first step to do it, even without big changes. Could it mean we will do a marketing trick? I think no, because we will be transparent with our users as we always have been. If the release won't have big improvements, we won't talk about big improvements. Why release a version without big improvements? That is the other point: I don't think we should focus only on big code improvements to use major version numbers (or even version names). We aren't only a product. We are a project and community. Indeed, the released product is our final work but a major version can also be used to spread (or celebrate) the maturity of the product/project/community. This is a different approach than paid software/non FLOSS. This is what I mean with consolidation. On Thu, Apr 6, 2023 at 8:22 AM Nigel Verity wrote: Hi Gustavo This is a very good point. If I see that some software I use regularly has gone from 7.5 to 7.6, say, I wouldn't rush to upgrade unless I knew it fixed a problem that affected me. I'm pretty sure that I would upgrade from 7.5 to to 8.0 far more quickly, if for no other reason that the psychological one of wanting to be using what my head tells me must be an improvement over my current version. Of course release notes are available to determine what really has changed but I rather suspect that most users never read them. The discussion of the different motivators for development and marketing people is very interesting. When I was a developer neither I nor anybody in my teams was ever let anywhere near sales activities - and I think for very good reasons. Cheers Nige * LibreOffice - Free and open source office suite: LibreOffice Website <https://www.libreoffice.org/> * * Respects your privacy, and gives you back control over your data* -- *From:* Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco *Sent:* 05 April 2023 22:05 *To:* TDF Devs ; TDF Marketing < market...@global.libreoffice.org>; TDF Design < des...@global.libreoffice.org> *Subject:* Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8? Hi Eyal, all! I also respectfully disagree with you on some points. ;D I like the idea to move to 8, even with no big technical innovation (if we have, for sure it will be better). IMHO, long sequences of minor releases (7.6, in the current case) are getting boring and not important for the users (for both enterprise and individual profiles). I'm not saying that we should embrace the Firefox approach, but thinking about Italo's idea (8 <-> infinite), I guess the message of this version could be consolidation, not exactly innovation. Best Gustavo On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 4:23 AM Eyal Rozenberg wrote: I respectfully disagree with Italo. First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as major version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing decisions. That is a _consideration_, since the version number is declarative than technical. But - such an action should be "truthful" before being "marketable". It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users receive trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t. version numbers, but generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for coverage. A second point is that bumping a version number without a major innovation moves you a few more steps into the category of, say, Firefox and such, where versions just increase automatically with no meaning whats
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Hi all, So if i understand correctly, developers are dumb people, talking only to its computer, and marketer have the privilege to speak to real user... Well, all the day, i speak to real user, and all say that marketers talk non sense about Microsoft compatibility... I wonder how to solve daily cognitive dissonnance * <https://context.reverso.net/traduction/anglais-francais/cognitive+dissonance>* Just kidding Cheers, Régis Perdreau Le jeu. 6 avr. 2023 à 23:00, Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco a écrit : > Hi, Nigel, Ben, Eyal, all! > > Let me add some comments. :) > > For sure, the current approach is a requirement for our internal > development organization, as Ben noted. Also, it was really important in > the first years of LibreOffice/TDF, when we used it to demonstrate we were > ahead of Apache OpenOffice for the users and the strong project/community > we were building. > > On the other hand, for the current moment of LibreOffice as a project and > product, I think we can do more or different things. Nigel wrote > exactly what I mean about 'boring' from the user perspective: most of the > users don't care about minor changes. > > So, I think, now, we should decide about releases with a Marketing > perspective and the number 8 could be a first step to do it, even without > big changes. > > Could it mean we will do a marketing trick? > > I think no, because we will be transparent with our users as we always > have been. If the release won't have big improvements, we won't talk about > big improvements. > > Why release a version without big improvements? > > That is the other point: I don't think we should focus only on big code > improvements to use major version numbers (or even version names). We > aren't only a product. We are a project and community. Indeed, the released > product is our final work but a major version can also be used to spread > (or celebrate) the maturity of the product/project/community. This is a > different approach than paid software/non FLOSS. This is what I mean with > consolidation. > > > On Thu, Apr 6, 2023 at 8:22 AM Nigel Verity > wrote: > >> Hi Gustavo >> >> This is a very good point. >> >> If I see that some software I use regularly has gone from 7.5 to 7.6, >> say, I wouldn't rush to upgrade unless I knew it fixed a problem that >> affected me. I'm pretty sure that I would upgrade from 7.5 to to 8.0 far >> more quickly, if for no other reason that the psychological one of wanting >> to be using what my head tells me must be an improvement over my current >> version. >> >> Of course release notes are available to determine what really has >> changed but I rather suspect that most users never read them. >> >> The discussion of the different motivators for development and marketing >> people is very interesting. When I was a developer neither I nor anybody in >> my teams was ever let anywhere near sales activities - and I think for very >> good reasons. >> >> Cheers >> >> Nige >> >> >> * LibreOffice - Free and open source office suite: LibreOffice Website >> <https://www.libreoffice.org/> * >> * Respects your privacy, and gives you back control over your data* >> ---------- >> *From:* Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco >> *Sent:* 05 April 2023 22:05 >> *To:* TDF Devs ; TDF Marketing < >> market...@global.libreoffice.org>; TDF Design < >> des...@global.libreoffice.org> >> *Subject:* Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving >> to LibreOffice 8? >> >> Hi Eyal, all! >> >> I also respectfully disagree with you on some points. ;D >> >> I like the idea to move to 8, even with no big technical innovation (if >> we >> have, for sure it will be better). >> >> IMHO, long sequences of minor releases (7.6, in the current case) are >> getting boring and not important for the users (for both enterprise and >> individual profiles). >> >> I'm not saying that we should embrace the Firefox approach, but thinking >> about Italo's idea (8 <-> infinite), I guess the message of this version >> could be consolidation, not exactly innovation. >> >> Best >> Gustavo >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 4:23 AM Eyal Rozenberg wrote: >> >> > I respectfully disagree with Italo. >> > >> > First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as >> > major version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing >> > decisions. That is a _consideration_, since the version number is >> > declara
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Hi, Nigel, Ben, Eyal, all! Let me add some comments. :) For sure, the current approach is a requirement for our internal development organization, as Ben noted. Also, it was really important in the first years of LibreOffice/TDF, when we used it to demonstrate we were ahead of Apache OpenOffice for the users and the strong project/community we were building. On the other hand, for the current moment of LibreOffice as a project and product, I think we can do more or different things. Nigel wrote exactly what I mean about 'boring' from the user perspective: most of the users don't care about minor changes. So, I think, now, we should decide about releases with a Marketing perspective and the number 8 could be a first step to do it, even without big changes. Could it mean we will do a marketing trick? I think no, because we will be transparent with our users as we always have been. If the release won't have big improvements, we won't talk about big improvements. Why release a version without big improvements? That is the other point: I don't think we should focus only on big code improvements to use major version numbers (or even version names). We aren't only a product. We are a project and community. Indeed, the released product is our final work but a major version can also be used to spread (or celebrate) the maturity of the product/project/community. This is a different approach than paid software/non FLOSS. This is what I mean with consolidation. On Thu, Apr 6, 2023 at 8:22 AM Nigel Verity wrote: > Hi Gustavo > > This is a very good point. > > If I see that some software I use regularly has gone from 7.5 to 7.6, say, > I wouldn't rush to upgrade unless I knew it fixed a problem that affected > me. I'm pretty sure that I would upgrade from 7.5 to to 8.0 far more > quickly, if for no other reason that the psychological one of wanting to be > using what my head tells me must be an improvement over my current version. > > Of course release notes are available to determine what really has changed > but I rather suspect that most users never read them. > > The discussion of the different motivators for development and marketing > people is very interesting. When I was a developer neither I nor anybody in > my teams was ever let anywhere near sales activities - and I think for very > good reasons. > > Cheers > > Nige > > > * LibreOffice - Free and open source office suite: LibreOffice Website > <https://www.libreoffice.org/> * > * Respects your privacy, and gives you back control over your data* > -- > *From:* Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco > *Sent:* 05 April 2023 22:05 > *To:* TDF Devs ; TDF Marketing < > market...@global.libreoffice.org>; TDF Design < > des...@global.libreoffice.org> > *Subject:* Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to > LibreOffice 8? > > Hi Eyal, all! > > I also respectfully disagree with you on some points. ;D > > I like the idea to move to 8, even with no big technical innovation (if we > have, for sure it will be better). > > IMHO, long sequences of minor releases (7.6, in the current case) are > getting boring and not important for the users (for both enterprise and > individual profiles). > > I'm not saying that we should embrace the Firefox approach, but thinking > about Italo's idea (8 <-> infinite), I guess the message of this version > could be consolidation, not exactly innovation. > > Best > Gustavo > > > On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 4:23 AM Eyal Rozenberg wrote: > > > I respectfully disagree with Italo. > > > > First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as > > major version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing > > decisions. That is a _consideration_, since the version number is > > declarative than technical. But - such an action should be "truthful" > > before being "marketable". > > > > It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users > > receive trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t. version > > numbers, but generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for > coverage. > > > > A second point is that bumping a version number without a major > > innovation moves you a few more steps into the category of, say, Firefox > > and such, where versions just increase automatically with no meaning > > whatsoever. Italo, you said we are perceived as a "real innovator"; > > well, when a real innovator starts having hollow version number bumping, > > that perception fades. > > > > Finally, everyone who likes the marketing potential of version 8 - > > great, but - keep that benef
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
To put last thing first: I'm not staunchly opposed to bumping the version number to 8. So think of this as a theoretical discussion. Anyway... Noting Italo's explanation that: > 80% (and probably more) of what we communicate is targeted to "normal" software users, and not to community members or to people with a technical background, who are already using LibreOffice. , it seems to me that the strongest argument in favor of higher-frequency major version bumps is that it can increase media/Internet visibility for the new version somewhat, and thus likely to attract the attention of more potential new users, which is a good thing. I find other arguments, though, to undermine this position more than buttress it. Nigel Verity wrote: > If I see that some software I use regularly has gone from 7.5 to 7.6, say, I wouldn't rush to upgrade Great, what's the problem? Why should we be in a rush to get existing users to upgrade from 7.5 to 7.6? we're not failing to meet our quarterly sales targets in The Big Office Corporation (TM). It's actually better if we don't pretend it's important to upgrade to the next minor version if it isn't. Italo Vignoli wrote: > major releases of Microsoft Office are managed by marketing Microsoft office is a commercial product, a commodity. And the company developing it is a vehicle for securing profits for its investors, not benefit to humanity (nor the users of office productivity suites). So, we should be at least skeptical about copying MS behavior regarding MSO in which their marketing wing is calling the shots. Moreover - MSO versioning is kind of a mess; and even though I use MSO quite a bit (for reasons not relevant to this email) - for the life of me I can't tell what exactly changes between versions and whether I should bother to make sure and use a newer one. > managed by marketing and not by developers This is a false dichotomy. I'm not an LO developer; I didn't suggest the developers take over the version numbering; and I don't know that that would be a good thing. But decisions by marketers solely may also not be so great. > marketing about that... LibreOffice is not a commodity. We don't exchange copies or licenses to use LibreOffice for money. And the set of people and organizations who use office suites, and the office suites they use, are not a market. _Some_ of that space is a market, but not our part (and there's also the ecosystem around LO, some of which is market-ish.) And while marketing experience is certainly useful in promoting the adoption and use of LO, there are still fundamental differences between doing that and "marketing" it. Some of them are practical (i.e. what "works" for commercial software isn't exactly what "works" for pitching LibreOffice use) but some of them are matters of principle and the kind of relationship and commitments between projects/producers/developers and users, or even non-users. The major version number is not some sacred part of these commitments. But - like Jan Dittirch says - what would our users think of us if they had been aware that we bump version numbers as a "stimulus-evoking action" to rile up some of the "animals", and have the other "herd animals" follow? (And yes, I know those terms have not been repeated by other discussants.) Paul Hofseth wrote: > For Libre office number eight it might suffice to claim the usual "the changes will assure your improved experience and safety" But it would be mostly a falsehood. I mean, any commit improves the experience of some people to some extent, but it's not true that the changes of 7.5 to 7.6 "assure your improved experience and safety". Moreover, people notice this kind of rhetoric - even non-tech-savvy newbies. And they realize that "Oh, so LibreOffice is another one of _those_ initiatives. The ones alienated and estranged from us, whose communiques must be carefully scrutinized for exaggerations and misrepresentations." I would rather we not be that.
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Hi Gustavo This is a very good point. If I see that some software I use regularly has gone from 7.5 to 7.6, say, I wouldn't rush to upgrade unless I knew it fixed a problem that affected me. I'm pretty sure that I would upgrade from 7.5 to to 8.0 far more quickly, if for no other reason that the psychological one of wanting to be using what my head tells me must be an improvement over my current version. Of course release notes are available to determine what really has changed but I rather suspect that most users never read them. The discussion of the different motivators for development and marketing people is very interesting. When I was a developer neither I nor anybody in my teams was ever let anywhere near sales activities - and I think for very good reasons. Cheers Nige LibreOffice - Free and open source office suite: LibreOffice Website<https://www.libreoffice.org/> Respects your privacy, and gives you back control over your data From: Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco Sent: 05 April 2023 22:05 To: TDF Devs ; TDF Marketing ; TDF Design Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8? Hi Eyal, all! I also respectfully disagree with you on some points. ;D I like the idea to move to 8, even with no big technical innovation (if we have, for sure it will be better). IMHO, long sequences of minor releases (7.6, in the current case) are getting boring and not important for the users (for both enterprise and individual profiles). I'm not saying that we should embrace the Firefox approach, but thinking about Italo's idea (8 <-> infinite), I guess the message of this version could be consolidation, not exactly innovation. Best Gustavo On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 4:23 AM Eyal Rozenberg wrote: > I respectfully disagree with Italo. > > First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as > major version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing > decisions. That is a _consideration_, since the version number is > declarative than technical. But - such an action should be "truthful" > before being "marketable". > > It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users > receive trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t. version > numbers, but generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for coverage. > > A second point is that bumping a version number without a major > innovation moves you a few more steps into the category of, say, Firefox > and such, where versions just increase automatically with no meaning > whatsoever. Italo, you said we are perceived as a "real innovator"; > well, when a real innovator starts having hollow version number bumping, > that perception fades. > > Finally, everyone who likes the marketing potential of version 8 - > great, but - keep that benefit for when we have a significant step > forward to celebrate. Don't squander it. > > > Eyal > > PS: availability on a new platform is not a reason to bump a version > number. It's the "same" software, but built for another target, so same > version as before. IMHO anyway. > > > > On 27/03/2023 20:11, Italo Vignoli wrote: > > Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing > > purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in > > the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is > > that we are forever stuck at 7.x. > > > > We all know that the next version will not include any significant > > innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new > > build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm > > processors on Windows (which has not been announced). > > > > Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the > > "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an > > infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all > > operating systems for personal productivity. > > > > This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't > > insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the > > marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I > > am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on > > the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a > > very short memory). > > > > Looking forward to your thoughts. > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.libreoffice.org%2Fget-help%2Fmailin
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
you might reason that since humans behave like herd animals, so that when some run, all run. The stimulus evoking action must be the most convincing, hence the facts can be distorted. For Libre office number eight it might suffice to claim the usual "the changes will assure your improved experience and safety". WHile making it quite clear that one i just mirroring the unscientific postures of other computing programs. p. Den 06-04-2023 12:06 skreiv Italo Vignoli: On 06/04/23 10:08, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: That is exactly what I'm opposing. Let's assume that the real situation is "boring" (I'm not sure that's the case, but still) and that, indeed, the changes since 7 are not fundamental enough to merit a version bump on their own (and I realize this is not in consensus either). In this state of affairs, evoking artificial interest in a new major version without substance behind it is a _marketing trick_, a psychological manipulation. One could even say it's mis-informing our users. It hurts user trust. Sure, it's not terrible to play with version numbers, but - I don't think that's something our users, current and potential, would like us to do. All major releases of Microsoft Office are managed by marketing, as all major releases of proprietary software and hardware companies, and not by developers, and are based on what you call "marketing tricks". By the way, marketing is a profession - as development - which is based on a specific professional background, and on a mindset which is 100% different from the mindset of a developer. This is probably the reason why developers, and in general people with a strong technical background, do not understand marketing and consider it useless. Marketing is the opposite of science, and is based on behaviour analisys (which is the "least scientific" science, although some people are trying to "smuggle" it as science). I have been a marketing executive for the last 42 years (since 1981), and the best marketing strategies I have managed during that time have been based on gut feelings (including the launch of Photoshop and PDF, when I was a marketing consultant for Adobe, and they both were huge success). Given that Microsoft Office's market share is well over 50%, it looks like users of office suites do like marketing tricks. Please remember that around 98% of users are not able to judge features. I am not contributing to QA for a very simple reason: I am not able to understand if the software behaviour is right or wrong (unless is clear as in the case of font embedding in macOS), and this is because I am not interested in technical details but I look at the wider picture. Even if I am technically illiterate, outside the open source environment I am considered a geek because I usually am more competent than 98% of "normal" software users. It should be clear that 80% (and probably more) of what we communicate is targeted to "normal" software users, and not to community members or to people with a technical background, who are already using LibreOffice (or refuse to use it for technical reasons). They are not our target, given that office suites are commodities. Our target is mis-informed and mis-educated by Microsoft, but doesn't realize it. On the contrary, they trust Microsoft more than they trust open source software. -- Italo Vignoli - it...@vignoli.org mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
On 06/04/23 10:08, Eyal Rozenberg wrote: That is exactly what I'm opposing. Let's assume that the real situation is "boring" (I'm not sure that's the case, but still) and that, indeed, the changes since 7 are not fundamental enough to merit a version bump on their own (and I realize this is not in consensus either). In this state of affairs, evoking artificial interest in a new major version without substance behind it is a _marketing trick_, a psychological manipulation. One could even say it's mis-informing our users. It hurts user trust. Sure, it's not terrible to play with version numbers, but - I don't think that's something our users, current and potential, would like us to do. All major releases of Microsoft Office are managed by marketing, as all major releases of proprietary software and hardware companies, and not by developers, and are based on what you call "marketing tricks". By the way, marketing is a profession - as development - which is based on a specific professional background, and on a mindset which is 100% different from the mindset of a developer. This is probably the reason why developers, and in general people with a strong technical background, do not understand marketing and consider it useless. Marketing is the opposite of science, and is based on behaviour analisys (which is the "least scientific" science, although some people are trying to "smuggle" it as science). I have been a marketing executive for the last 42 years (since 1981), and the best marketing strategies I have managed during that time have been based on gut feelings (including the launch of Photoshop and PDF, when I was a marketing consultant for Adobe, and they both were huge success). Given that Microsoft Office's market share is well over 50%, it looks like users of office suites do like marketing tricks. Please remember that around 98% of users are not able to judge features. I am not contributing to QA for a very simple reason: I am not able to understand if the software behaviour is right or wrong (unless is clear as in the case of font embedding in macOS), and this is because I am not interested in technical details but I look at the wider picture. Even if I am technically illiterate, outside the open source environment I am considered a geek because I usually am more competent than 98% of "normal" software users. It should be clear that 80% (and probably more) of what we communicate is targeted to "normal" software users, and not to community members or to people with a technical background, who are already using LibreOffice (or refuse to use it for technical reasons). They are not our target, given that office suites are commodities. Our target is mis-informed and mis-educated by Microsoft, but doesn't realize it. On the contrary, they trust Microsoft more than they trust open source software. -- Italo Vignoli - it...@vignoli.org mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Gustavo, it seems that what you're saying is that the _reality_ is a bit "boring" - a long sequence of minor releases without a fundamental/breakthrough change; and there is a desire to make it more interesting/exciting using a major version bump. That is exactly what I'm opposing. Let's assume that the real situation is "boring" (I'm not sure that's the case, but still) and that, indeed, the changes since 7 are not fundamental enough to merit a version bump on their own (and I realize this is not in consensus either). In this state of affairs, evoking artificial interest in a new major version without substance behind it is a _marketing trick_, a psychological manipulation. One could even say it's mis-informing our users. It hurts user trust. Sure, it's not terrible to play with version numbers, but - I don't think that's something our users, current and potential, would like us to do. "I guess the message of this version could be consolidation" - but what is consolidated about the code right now as opposed to 7.5 ? Remember also, that as time progresses - an office suite's rate of change decreases. It is to be expected that major versions become farther between, and the release cycle becomes more "boring". Your reasoning, and this fact, combine to result in major version number inflation, which is the other thing I was cautioning about. Eyal On 06/04/2023 0:05, Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco wrote: Hi Eyal, all! I also respectfully disagree with you on some points. ;D I like the idea to move to 8, even with no big technical innovation (if we have, for sure it will be better). IMHO, long sequences of minor releases (7.6, in the current case) are getting boring and not important for the users (for both enterprise and individual profiles). I'm not saying that we should embrace the Firefox approach, but thinking about Italo's idea (8 <-> infinite), I guess the message of this version could be consolidation, not exactly innovation. Best Gustavo On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 4:23 AM Eyal Rozenberg <mailto:eyalr...@gmx.com>> wrote: I respectfully disagree with Italo. First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as major version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing decisions. That is a _consideration_, since the version number is declarative than technical. But - such an action should be "truthful" before being "marketable". It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users receive trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t. version numbers, but generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for coverage. A second point is that bumping a version number without a major innovation moves you a few more steps into the category of, say, Firefox and such, where versions just increase automatically with no meaning whatsoever. Italo, you said we are perceived as a "real innovator"; well, when a real innovator starts having hollow version number bumping, that perception fades. Finally, everyone who likes the marketing potential of version 8 - great, but - keep that benefit for when we have a significant step forward to celebrate. Don't squander it. Eyal PS: availability on a new platform is not a reason to bump a version number. It's the "same" software, but built for another target, so same version as before. IMHO anyway. On 27/03/2023 20:11, Italo Vignoli wrote: > Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing > purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in > the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is > that we are forever stuck at 7.x. > > We all know that the next version will not include any significant > innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new > build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm > processors on Windows (which has not been announced). > > Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the > "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an > infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all > operating systems for personal productivity. > > This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't > insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the > marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I > am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on > the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks l
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Yes, but this is how the naming process works in software versions and engineering updates. long sequences of minor releases (7.6, in the current case) are getting boring and not important for the users (for both enterprise and individual profiles). Here's the guide in the Cell Phone Standards - The contents of the present documentare subject to continuing work within the development group and may changefollowing formal development group approval. Should the development group modify the contents ofthe present document, it will be re-released by the development group with anidentifying change of release date and an increase in version numberas follows: A.x.y.z where A is the major revision number. (version 7 in our case) and where x.y.z arethe version number of the standard Awhere:x the first digit:1 presented to the development group for information;2 presented to the development group for approval to next level3 or greater indicates the development group approved document underchange control.y the second digit is incremented for all changes of substance, i.e.technical enhancements, corrections, updates, etc.z the third digit is incremented when editorial only changes havebeen incorporated in the document. Ben Levitan Wireless Cellular Telecommunications Expert Consulting and Expert Witness Services www.BenLevitan.com 919/420-0924 -- Historical Cell Phone Records Analysis sent from my IBM Selectric Typewriter -Original Message- From: Gustavo Buzzatti Pacheco To: TDF Devs ; TDF Marketing ; TDF Design Sent: Wed, Apr 5, 2023 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8? Hi Eyal, all! I also respectfully disagree with you on some points. ;D I like the idea to move to 8, even with no big technical innovation (if we have, for sure it will be better). IMHO, long sequences of minor releases (7.6, in the current case) are getting boring and not important for the users (for both enterprise and individual profiles). I'm not saying that we should embrace the Firefox approach, but thinking about Italo's idea (8 <-> infinite), I guess the message of this version could be consolidation, not exactly innovation. Best Gustavo On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 4:23 AM Eyal Rozenberg wrote: > I respectfully disagree with Italo. > > First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as > major version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing > decisions. That is a _consideration_, since the version number is > declarative than technical. But - such an action should be "truthful" > before being "marketable". > > It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users > receive trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t. version > numbers, but generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for coverage. > > A second point is that bumping a version number without a major > innovation moves you a few more steps into the category of, say, Firefox > and such, where versions just increase automatically with no meaning > whatsoever. Italo, you said we are perceived as a "real innovator"; > well, when a real innovator starts having hollow version number bumping, > that perception fades. > > Finally, everyone who likes the marketing potential of version 8 - > great, but - keep that benefit for when we have a significant step > forward to celebrate. Don't squander it. > > > Eyal > > PS: availability on a new platform is not a reason to bump a version > number. It's the "same" software, but built for another target, so same > version as before. IMHO anyway. > > > > On 27/03/2023 20:11, Italo Vignoli wrote: > > Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing > > purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in > > the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is > > that we are forever stuck at 7.x. > > > > We all know that the next version will not include any significant > > innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new > > build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm > > processors on Windows (which has not been announced). > > > > Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the > > "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an > > infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all > > operating systems for personal productivity. > > > > This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't > > insist. I have received
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Hi Eyal, all! I also respectfully disagree with you on some points. ;D I like the idea to move to 8, even with no big technical innovation (if we have, for sure it will be better). IMHO, long sequences of minor releases (7.6, in the current case) are getting boring and not important for the users (for both enterprise and individual profiles). I'm not saying that we should embrace the Firefox approach, but thinking about Italo's idea (8 <-> infinite), I guess the message of this version could be consolidation, not exactly innovation. Best Gustavo On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 4:23 AM Eyal Rozenberg wrote: > I respectfully disagree with Italo. > > First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as > major version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing > decisions. That is a _consideration_, since the version number is > declarative than technical. But - such an action should be "truthful" > before being "marketable". > > It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users > receive trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t. version > numbers, but generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for coverage. > > A second point is that bumping a version number without a major > innovation moves you a few more steps into the category of, say, Firefox > and such, where versions just increase automatically with no meaning > whatsoever. Italo, you said we are perceived as a "real innovator"; > well, when a real innovator starts having hollow version number bumping, > that perception fades. > > Finally, everyone who likes the marketing potential of version 8 - > great, but - keep that benefit for when we have a significant step > forward to celebrate. Don't squander it. > > > Eyal > > PS: availability on a new platform is not a reason to bump a version > number. It's the "same" software, but built for another target, so same > version as before. IMHO anyway. > > > > On 27/03/2023 20:11, Italo Vignoli wrote: > > Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing > > purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in > > the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is > > that we are forever stuck at 7.x. > > > > We all know that the next version will not include any significant > > innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new > > build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm > > processors on Windows (which has not been announced). > > > > Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the > > "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an > > infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all > > operating systems for personal productivity. > > > > This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't > > insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the > > marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I > > am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on > > the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a > > very short memory). > > > > Looking forward to your thoughts. > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy >
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Moving to LibreOffice 8?
s together with the change from ODF 1.2 to ODF 1.3. If the decision it to keep this kind of numbering, I think a change to 8.0 should happen when LibreOffice starts support for ODF 1.4. ODF 1.4 will hopefully be released end of 2024. Kind regards, Regina Italo Vignoli schrieb am 27.03.2023 um 19:11: Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is that we are forever stuck at 7.x. We all know that the next version will not include any significant innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm processors on Windows (which has not been announced). Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all operating systems for personal productivity. This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a very short memory). Looking forward to your thoughts. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org <mailto:design%2bunsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org> Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org <mailto:design%2bunsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org> Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy -- Stéphane Guillou Quality Assurance Analyst | The Document Foundation Email:stephane.guil...@libreoffice.org Mobile (France): +33 7 79 67 18 72 Matrix: @stragu:matrix.org Fediverse: @str...@mastodon.indie.host Web:https://stragu.gitlab.io/
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Hi László, all, Németh László wrote: > The next release has already got major improvements. My favorites ( > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/7.6): > Two more in-progress features of, I believe, some importance: * theme support in Impress (Tomaž, Collabora) * multi-color gradients (Armin, allotropia) Cheers, -- Thorsten signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Hi y'all, Uwe Altmann wrote: > Am 29.03.23 um 12:28 schrieb Clocked Modular: > > Is it an option to stick to 7 as long as there are no major changes? > > With a six monthly release plan it is not that easy to have major changes ;-) > Yes, I believe that's the important point. No single release of LibreOffice will ever have the massive pack of new features, that e.g. MSO major release have. In the past, we usually did the following: * look at the full version cycle (7.0 -> 7.5) as the field of change * favouring the spring release over the summer one (since gsoc usually provided a number of visible features) * or piggy-back on hard-to-plan events, like ODF releases One more reason to seriously consider year-based names, since it better matches our way of development. Cheers, -- Thorsten signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Moving to LibreOffice 8?
/(I see that I replied to only one list, so just wanted to include
design and marketing. Sorry for the double-up.)/
Thank you all for sharing your opinion.
Please keep in mind that "a really big jump" or "a major innovation"
will always be very subjective and depend on personal areas of interest
or specialties, and I suspect that we will have dozens of different
opinions (and no agreement) if we ask what constitutes a feature that is
significant enough to warrant a major version number.
Concretely, here is the shortlist of things that, in my _subjective_
opinion, are important in the upcoming version (somewhat similar to
László's):
- availability on all major desktop platforms, including through
official app stores
- advertise availability for ARM processors on Windows
- build baseline bump
- zoom gesture support
- cementing of updated visual identity and improved theming following
the OS's
- improvements in accessibility of documents, including accessibility
checked in sidebar and tagged PDF export by default
- two new languages
- multi-page floating tables
- _maybe_ Skia by default on macOS
- _maybe_ new Windows installer
Waiting for significantly "bigger" (again, very subjective) changes in
LibreOffice is a bit unrealistic, knowing the project grows and has
grown very organically.
In the end, I have no strong opinion about it. I just hope everyone can
remain respectful and understand that sometimes, decisions have to be
made, and I believe the marketing team, after some discussion with the
rest of the TDF team, the Design team and the ESC, are a good fit to
take such decisions, instead of heated conversations filled with
subjective opinions on what feature is or isn't important.
The recent interaction makes me think a year/month versioning scheme is
beneficial in that discussing version bumps will not be needed anymore.
It's definitely not worth getting insulted, and I am sorry Italo had to
be at the receiving end of that. And as Jorge said: let's not get bogged
down into something that is in the end quite trivial.
I do however want to say I appreciate and take note of input from people
like Regina (associating major releases with ODF releases, the default
standard we are proud of), Kelvene (cultural aspect of the number),
David (deciding early on to allow work on more disruptive projects) and
Nigel ("The universal office suite", highlighting our strength in
language and platform support).
Cheers!
On 29/3/23 21:36, Jaron Kuppers wrote:
I agree with Italo that changing to version 8 makes sense and that it
is a marketing decision. Office suite updates that become new version
numbers rarely include much in the way of ground breaking innovation
and waiting for some integration of some new 'ground breaking' feature
does not make sense. Nor does waiting for ODF1.4 which is not a change
in some way unique to LibreOffice. A new version can also be framed
around the plan for that new version. What huge changes are we going
to make during version 8? It does not have to be limited to what
changes warranted a number change. I think universal accessibility
warrants a number change and makes for great marketing.
Italo, the way people talk to you is not okay... know that you have
the respect of many/most community members who trust in your marketing
expertise. Many are quick to speak on a topic they have no formal
training in.
My 2 cents...
Cheers,
Jaron
On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 5:14 AM Pedro Rosmaninho
wrote:
I would just like to counter what Eyal Rosenberg says. Version number
should be a marketing decision.
But I agree with his points that marketing must consider that major
innovations or missing features should be included with a major number
change otherwise said number change will fall flat.
The number 8 is a great opportunity so it shouldn't be wasted without
having something impactful when it is launched.
Regina Henschel escreveu no dia terça,
28/03/2023
à(s) 15:40:
> Hi Italo,
>
> the change from 6.x to 7.0 happens together with the change from
ODF 1.2
> to ODF 1.3. If the decision it to keep this kind of numbering, I
think a
> change to 8.0 should happen when LibreOffice starts support for
ODF 1.4.
> ODF 1.4 will hopefully be released end of 2024.
>
> Kind regards,
> Regina
>
> Italo Vignoli schrieb am 27.03.2023 um 19:11:
> > Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing
> > purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real
innovator in
> > the open source office suite market, and the feeling of
journalists is
> > that we are forever stuck at 7.x.
> >
> > We all know that the next version will not include any significant
> > innovation which can justify the change
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Moving to LibreOffice 8?
I agree with Italo that changing to version 8 makes sense and that it is a marketing decision. Office suite updates that become new version numbers rarely include much in the way of ground breaking innovation and waiting for some integration of some new 'ground breaking' feature does not make sense. Nor does waiting for ODF1.4 which is not a change in some way unique to LibreOffice. A new version can also be framed around the plan for that new version. What huge changes are we going to make during version 8? It does not have to be limited to what changes warranted a number change. I think universal accessibility warrants a number change and makes for great marketing. Italo, the way people talk to you is not okay... know that you have the respect of many/most community members who trust in your marketing expertise. Many are quick to speak on a topic they have no formal training in. My 2 cents... Cheers, Jaron On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 5:14 AM Pedro Rosmaninho wrote: > I would just like to counter what Eyal Rosenberg says. Version number > should be a marketing decision. > But I agree with his points that marketing must consider that major > innovations or missing features should be included with a major number > change otherwise said number change will fall flat. > The number 8 is a great opportunity so it shouldn't be wasted without > having something impactful when it is launched. > > > Regina Henschel escreveu no dia terça, > 28/03/2023 > à(s) 15:40: > > > Hi Italo, > > > > the change from 6.x to 7.0 happens together with the change from ODF 1.2 > > to ODF 1.3. If the decision it to keep this kind of numbering, I think a > > change to 8.0 should happen when LibreOffice starts support for ODF 1.4. > > ODF 1.4 will hopefully be released end of 2024. > > > > Kind regards, > > Regina > > > > Italo Vignoli schrieb am 27.03.2023 um 19:11: > > > Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing > > > purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in > > > the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is > > > that we are forever stuck at 7.x. > > > > > > We all know that the next version will not include any significant > > > innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new > > > build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm > > > processors on Windows (which has not been announced). > > > > > > Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the > > > "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an > > > infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all > > > operating systems for personal productivity. > > > > > > This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't > > > insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the > > > marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I > > > am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision > on > > > the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a > > > very short memory). > > > > > > Looking forward to your thoughts. > > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > > Problems? > > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ > > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy > > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy >
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Dear all, Is it an option to stick to 7 as long as there are no major changes? And for clear communication, stop using the 5.1 etc. and replace is with 23 (for the year) and .1 (for the release in the year). Starting with no additional number. So 7.23 and then if there is a second release in 2023 7.23.1 and so on. Development can then stick to proper version control. And for the user, it is easier where he/she is. (in sync or not). Met vriendelijke groet, With kind regards, Boudi van Vlijmen. *Because email is an old and insecure first generation internet protocol we will, **in time, stop** to use email. If you want to contact us and are not known with us, you can use the web contact form <https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeW6oPf3_HhJ6P_ONNCAVy7CJNSmga7WX4ln2CgAxZB6ycfzg/viewform>. If you are known with us you can use our signal account <https://www.signal.org/> or* RCS <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services> *to chat, or we share an cloud environment.* === Omdat e-mail een oud en onveilig internetprotocol van de eerste generatie is, zullen we op termijn stoppen met het gebruik van e-mail. Als u contact met ons wilt opnemen en niet bij ons bekend bent, kunt u het contactformulier <https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeW6oPf3_HhJ6P_ONNCAVy7CJNSmga7WX4ln2CgAxZB6ycfzg/viewform> gebruiken. Als u bij ons bekend bent, kunt u ons signal <https://www.signal.org/>-account of RCS <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services> gebruiken om te chatten, of we delen een uitwisseling omgeving. Op ma 27 mrt 2023 om 19:37 schreef Italo Vignoli : > Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing > purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in > the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is > that we are forever stuck at 7.x. > > We all know that the next version will not include any significant > innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new > build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm > processors on Windows (which has not been announced). > > Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the > "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an > infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all > operating systems for personal productivity. > > This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't > insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the > marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I > am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on > the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a > very short memory). > > Looking forward to your thoughts. > -- > Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR > mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - email it...@libreoffice.org > hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com > GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 > DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy > -- = This information is intended for consignee only. For address, registrations, privacy and further legal information please refer to our websites. © Clocked S.O. B.V. Netherlands
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Thank you all for sharing your opinion.
Please keep in mind that "a really big jump" or "a major innovation"
will always be very subjective and depend on personal areas of interest
or specialties, and I suspect that we will have dozens of different
opinions (and no agreement) if we ask what constitutes a feature that is
significant enough to warrant a major version number.
Concretely, here is the shortlist of things that, in my _subjective_
opinion, are important in the upcoming version (somewhat similar to
László's):
- availability on all major desktop platforms, including through
official app stores
- advertise availability for ARM processors on Windows
- build baseline bump
- zoom gesture support
- cementing of updated visual identity and improved theming following
the OS's
- improvements in accessibility of documents, including accessibility
checked in sidebar and tagged PDF export by default
- two new languages
- multi-page floating tables
- _maybe_ Skia by default on macOS
- _maybe_ new Windows installer
Waiting for significantly "bigger" (again, very subjective) changes in
LibreOffice is a bit unrealistic, knowing the project grows and has
grown very organically.
In the end, I have no strong opinion about it. I just hope everyone can
remain respectful and understand that sometimes, decisions have to be
made, and I believe the marketing team, after some discussion with the
rest of the TDF team, the Design team and the ESC, are a good fit to
take such decisions, instead of heated conversations filled with
subjective opinions on what feature is or isn't important.
The recent interaction makes me think a year/month versioning scheme is
beneficial in that discussing version bumps will not be needed anymore.
It's definitely not worth getting insulted, and I am sorry Italo had to
be at the receiving end of that. And as Jorge said: let's not get bogged
down into something that is in the end quite trivial.
I do however want to say I appreciate and take note of input from people
like Regina (associating major releases with ODF releases, the default
standard we are proud of), Kelvene (cultural aspect of the number),
David (deciding early on to allow work on more disruptive projects) and
Nigel ("The universal office suite", highlighting our strength in
language and platform support).
Cheers!
On 29/3/23 11:13, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
I would just like to counter what Eyal Rosenberg says. Version number
should be a marketing decision.
But I agree with his points that marketing must consider that major
innovations or missing features should be included with a major number
change otherwise said number change will fall flat.
The number 8 is a great opportunity so it shouldn't be wasted without
having something impactful when it is launched.
Regina Henschel escreveu no dia terça,
28/03/2023 à(s) 15:40:
Hi Italo,
the change from 6.x to 7.0 happens together with the change from
ODF 1.2
to ODF 1.3. If the decision it to keep this kind of numbering, I
think a
change to 8.0 should happen when LibreOffice starts support for
ODF 1.4.
ODF 1.4 will hopefully be released end of 2024.
Kind regards,
Regina
Italo Vignoli schrieb am 27.03.2023 um 19:11:
> Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing
> purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real
innovator in
> the open source office suite market, and the feeling of
journalists is
> that we are forever stuck at 7.x.
>
> We all know that the next version will not include any significant
> innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from
the new
> build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for
Arm
> processors on Windows (which has not been announced).
>
> Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the
> "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice
for an
> infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and
all
> operating systems for personal productivity.
>
> This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I
won't
> insist. I have received enough insults both public and private
for the
> marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people,
that I
> am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the
decision on
> the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people
have a
> very short memory).
>
> Looking forward to your thoughts.
--
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design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
<mailto:design%2bunsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org>
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https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mail
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Moving to LibreOffice 8?
I would just like to counter what Eyal Rosenberg says. Version number should be a marketing decision. But I agree with his points that marketing must consider that major innovations or missing features should be included with a major number change otherwise said number change will fall flat. The number 8 is a great opportunity so it shouldn't be wasted without having something impactful when it is launched. Regina Henschel escreveu no dia terça, 28/03/2023 à(s) 15:40: > Hi Italo, > > the change from 6.x to 7.0 happens together with the change from ODF 1.2 > to ODF 1.3. If the decision it to keep this kind of numbering, I think a > change to 8.0 should happen when LibreOffice starts support for ODF 1.4. > ODF 1.4 will hopefully be released end of 2024. > > Kind regards, > Regina > > Italo Vignoli schrieb am 27.03.2023 um 19:11: > > Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing > > purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in > > the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is > > that we are forever stuck at 7.x. > > > > We all know that the next version will not include any significant > > innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new > > build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm > > processors on Windows (which has not been announced). > > > > Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the > > "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an > > infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all > > operating systems for personal productivity. > > > > This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't > > insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the > > marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I > > am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on > > the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a > > very short memory). > > > > Looking forward to your thoughts. > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy >
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Gentlemen & Gentlewomen... It's easy to assume a passive role, sit, watch and criticize... All LibreOffice contributors have been doing more than an extraordinary job. Lets not cloud our minds with trivial issues. Let's continue moving forward. All the best to all... -- Jorge E. Restrepo On Tue, Mar 28, 2023, 03:37 Csongor Halmai wrote: > I totally understand Italo's frustration. I also hate when I am expected > to make a decision and people, who were absolutely silent and > indifferent before, suddenly start to verbalise their opinion, which > "happens to be" different from mine. > > Regarding the version number, I think people who liked 7.x, will continue > to like 8.x too. The rest may find the big jump attractive enough > to try it but I believe most of the articles would emphasize "Hey people, > here is the new version but there is nothing remarkably new in > it". Which erodes the reputation of the product. > > Therefore, I second Eyal's suggestion. Let's keep the new major version > number for something really big jump. > > > Such a big jump could be an AI integration (like ChatGPT). It could really > change how people use LO (at least, Writer and Impress) > > Csongor > > > > > > > On 28/03/2023 20:43, Italo Vignoli wrote: > > I have been asked to provide my opinion by developers, who seem to think > that the change of version has to be a marketing decision. As I have said > quite clearly, I am pissed off by the current situation, where I am asked > to take a decision and then I am blamed because I take one. I leave the > decision to the community. > > > > 28 Mar 2023 08:18:13 Eyal Rozenberg: > > > >> I respectfully disagree with Italo. > >> > >> First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as > major version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing > decisions. That is a _consideration_, since the version number is > declarative than technical. But - such an action should be "truthful" > before being "marketable". > >> > >> It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users > receive trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t. version > numbers, but generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for coverage. > >> > >> A second point is that bumping a version number without a major > innovation moves you a few more steps into the category of, say, Firefox > and such, where versions just increase automatically with no meaning > whatsoever. Italo, you said we are perceived as a "real innovator"; well, > when a real innovator starts having hollow version number bumping, that > perception fades. > >> > >> Finally, everyone who likes the marketing potential of version 8 - > great, but - keep that benefit for when we have a significant step forward > to celebrate. Don't squander it. > >> > >> > >> Eyal > >> > >> PS: availability on a new platform is not a reason to bump a version > number. It's the "same" software, but built for another target, so same > version as before. IMHO anyway. > >> > >> > >> > >> On 27/03/2023 20:11, Italo Vignoli wrote: > >>> Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing > purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in the > open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is that we > are forever stuck at 7.x. > >>> We all know that the next version will not include any significant > innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new > build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm > processors on Windows (which has not been announced). > >>> Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the > "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an > infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all > operating systems for personal productivity. > >>> This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't > insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the > marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I am > not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on the > "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a very > short memory). > >>> Looking forward to your thoughts. > >> -- > >> To unsubscribe e-mail to:design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > >> Problems? > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-l
Re: Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Hi Italo and All, Regina Henschel ezt írta (időpont: 2023. márc. 28., K, 15:40): > Hi Italo, > > the change from 6.x to 7.0 happens together with the change from ODF 1.2 > to ODF 1.3. If the decision it to keep this kind of numbering, I think a > change to 8.0 should happen when LibreOffice starts support for ODF 1.4. > ODF 1.4 will hopefully be released end of 2024. > After the previous end of lives 4.4, 5.4 and 6.4, moving to 8.0 is more traditional, than using 7.6, and I agree with Italo, version 8.0 has greater marketing value, and likely this was the reason to avoid of version 3.7, 4.5, 5.5 and 6.5. (LibreOffice 3.6 was a different case, because that numbering was inherited from OpenOffice.org, and LibreOffice started with version 3.3.) The next release has already got major improvements. My favorites ( https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/7.6): – Start of multi-page floating tables in Writer blog post <https://vmiklos.hu/blog/sw-floattable.html> (Miklos Vajna, Collabora) – Citation handling: added plumbing in Writer to build Zotero-like functionality blog post <https://vmiklos.hu/blog/sw-zotero-plumbing.html> (Miklos Vajna, Collabora) – Added support for OOXML files created in zip64 format tdf#82984 <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82984>, tdf#94915 <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94915> (Attila Szűcs, Collabora) – Export to PDF v.1.7 by default. commit <https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/e624e07cc54c408bb86bd2e52cfed3c7ec59fb4a> (Michael Stahl, allotropia) – Tagged PDF <https://help.libreoffice.org/7.6/en-US/text/shared/01/ref_pdf_export_general.html> is now produced by default, for improved accessibility. (To further improve your PDF's accessibility, the PDF/UA <https://help.libreoffice.org/7.6/en-US/text/shared/01/ref_pdf_export_universal_accessibility.html> option is available in the export dialog and will trigger the Accessibility Check <https://help.libreoffice.org/7.6/en-US/text/swriter/01/accessibility_check.html> tool). tdf#39667 <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39667> (Samuel Mehrbrodt, allotropia) Related to API changes, 7.6 and 8.0 are the same case. No problem with year based numbering, but I suggest to use ISO 8601 date format for the first office suite based on an ISO document format: LibreOffice 2023-08 or LibreOffice -23-08. And what about LibreOffice 365? We can follow that with 366, 367, or similar to Donald Knuth's numbering scheme for TeX, with approximation, here to the anomalistic year length in days: 365, 365.2, 365.25, 365.259, 365.2596, 365.25963, 365.259636 etc. [ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2017/02/24/think-you-know-how-many-days-are-in-a-year-think-again/ ] I think, there is no bad decision, so we can choose the best for marketing, e.g. 8.0, and that was the essence of Italo's proposal, many thanks for it! I like also the idea of infinity, and I wish LibreOffice another 38 successful years, which number also contains digit 8 –, also the birth of our code base: 1985 (StarOffice). Best regards, László > Kind regards, > Regina > > Italo Vignoli schrieb am 27.03.2023 um 19:11: > > Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing > > purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in > > the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is > > that we are forever stuck at 7.x. > > > > We all know that the next version will not include any significant > > innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new > > build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm > > processors on Windows (which has not been announced). > > > > Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the > > "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an > > infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all > > operating systems for personal productivity. > > > > This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't > > insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the > > marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I > > am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on > > the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a > > very short memory). > > > > Looking forward to your thoughts. > >
Re: Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Hi Italo, the change from 6.x to 7.0 happens together with the change from ODF 1.2 to ODF 1.3. If the decision it to keep this kind of numbering, I think a change to 8.0 should happen when LibreOffice starts support for ODF 1.4. ODF 1.4 will hopefully be released end of 2024. Kind regards, Regina Italo Vignoli schrieb am 27.03.2023 um 19:11: Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is that we are forever stuck at 7.x. We all know that the next version will not include any significant innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm processors on Windows (which has not been announced). Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all operating systems for personal productivity. This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a very short memory). Looking forward to your thoughts.
Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
I totally understand Italo's frustration. I also hate when I am expected to make a decision and people, who were absolutely silent and indifferent before, suddenly start to verbalise their opinion, which "happens to be" different from mine. Regarding the version number, I think people who liked 7.x, will continue to like 8.x too. The rest may find the big jump attractive enough to try it but I believe most of the articles would emphasize "Hey people, here is the new version but there is nothing remarkably new in it". Which erodes the reputation of the product. Therefore, I second Eyal's suggestion. Let's keep the new major version number for something really big jump. Such a big jump could be an AI integration (like ChatGPT). It could really change how people use LO (at least, Writer and Impress) Csongor On 28/03/2023 20:43, Italo Vignoli wrote: I have been asked to provide my opinion by developers, who seem to think that the change of version has to be a marketing decision. As I have said quite clearly, I am pissed off by the current situation, where I am asked to take a decision and then I am blamed because I take one. I leave the decision to the community. 28 Mar 2023 08:18:13 Eyal Rozenberg: I respectfully disagree with Italo. First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as major version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing decisions. That is a _consideration_, since the version number is declarative than technical. But - such an action should be "truthful" before being "marketable". It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users receive trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t. version numbers, but generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for coverage. A second point is that bumping a version number without a major innovation moves you a few more steps into the category of, say, Firefox and such, where versions just increase automatically with no meaning whatsoever. Italo, you said we are perceived as a "real innovator"; well, when a real innovator starts having hollow version number bumping, that perception fades. Finally, everyone who likes the marketing potential of version 8 - great, but - keep that benefit for when we have a significant step forward to celebrate. Don't squander it. Eyal PS: availability on a new platform is not a reason to bump a version number. It's the "same" software, but built for another target, so same version as before. IMHO anyway. On 27/03/2023 20:11, Italo Vignoli wrote: Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is that we are forever stuck at 7.x. We all know that the next version will not include any significant innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm processors on Windows (which has not been announced). Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all operating systems for personal productivity. This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a very short memory). Looking forward to your thoughts. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to:design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems?https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more:https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive:https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ Privacy Policy:https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
I have been asked to provide my opinion by developers, who seem to think that the change of version has to be a marketing decision. As I have said quite clearly, I am pissed off by the current situation, where I am asked to take a decision and then I am blamed because I take one. I leave the decision to the community. 28 Mar 2023 08:18:13 Eyal Rozenberg : > I respectfully disagree with Italo. > > First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as major > version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing decisions. That > is a _consideration_, since the version number is declarative than technical. > But - such an action should be "truthful" before being "marketable". > > It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users receive > trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t. version numbers, but > generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for coverage. > > A second point is that bumping a version number without a major innovation > moves you a few more steps into the category of, say, Firefox and such, where > versions just increase automatically with no meaning whatsoever. Italo, you > said we are perceived as a "real innovator"; well, when a real innovator > starts having hollow version number bumping, that perception fades. > > Finally, everyone who likes the marketing potential of version 8 - great, but > - keep that benefit for when we have a significant step forward to celebrate. > Don't squander it. > > > Eyal > > PS: availability on a new platform is not a reason to bump a version number. > It's the "same" software, but built for another target, so same version as > before. IMHO anyway. > > > > On 27/03/2023 20:11, Italo Vignoli wrote: >> Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing purposes, >> as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in the open source >> office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is that we are forever >> stuck at 7.x. >> We all know that the next version will not include any significant >> innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new build >> system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm processors on >> Windows (which has not been announced). >> Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the "infinite" >> symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an infinite number >> of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all operating systems for >> personal productivity. >> This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't >> insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the >> marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I am >> not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on the >> "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a very >> short memory). >> Looking forward to your thoughts. > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Sirs (& ladies?), As an ironical kick in the soft underbelly of commercial progams one might emphasise that there also are trivial changes warranting a numerical advance. ExampleS: say that Libre office text now starts with Capitalis Quadrata(in the shape of Times new roman) rather than the usual sans serif. OR an equally inconsequential "improvement". that the first letter of the program name now is written with 16point type, while underlining that unlike other programs that always improves your user experience and protects you , it does not disable useful commands (or kill communication with your NASboxes) . p. Den 27-03-2023 19:11 skreiv Italo Vignoli: Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is that we are forever stuck at 7.x. We all know that the next version will not include any significant innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm processors on Windows (which has not been announced). Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all operating systems for personal productivity. This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a very short memory). Looking forward to your thoughts. -- Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - email it...@libreoffice.org hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
The ability to run LibreOffice on just about every mainstream processor and OS strikes me as a major achievement which ought to be shouted from the hilltops. Debian does the same and is known as "The universal operating system". Perhaps LO should become known as "The universal office suite". No other office suite comes close in that context. It surely warrants something better than a point release. I like the concept of turning the number 8 on its side, though there would inevitably be comments about the concept of "infinity point one" when the subsequent release hits the streets.. Nige LibreOffice - Free and open source office suite: LibreOffice Website<https://www.libreoffice.org> Respects your privacy, and gives you back control over your data From: Italo Vignoli Sent: 27 March 2023 18:11 To: TDF Devs ; TDF Marketing ; TDF Design Subject: [libreoffice-marketing] Moving to LibreOffice 8? Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is that we are forever stuck at 7.x. We all know that the next version will not include any significant innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm processors on Windows (which has not been announced). Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all operating systems for personal productivity. This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a very short memory). Looking forward to your thoughts. -- Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - email it...@libreoffice.org hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.libreoffice.org%2Fget-help%2Fmailing-lists%2Fhow-to-unsubscribe%2F=05%7C01%7C%7C8704d084eda04b6e32a908db2eea0047%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638155354795798091%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=4%2BwivGuUSlrQo9HoCGEE7a4pffZ4NYWl%2Fk3qG3j7rXY%3D=0 Posting guidelines + more: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.documentfoundation.org%2FNetiquette=05%7C01%7C%7C8704d084eda04b6e32a908db2eea0047%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638155354795953896%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=nNEt2hTh18BKRnsBVs%2F4u2JxTWhezPt1JYreHrGLVA8%3D=0 List archive: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flistarchives.libreoffice.org%2Fglobal%2Fmarketing%2F=05%7C01%7C%7C8704d084eda04b6e32a908db2eea0047%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638155354795953896%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=wo0VHwYeHXZR%2FvLBfHSzNvNQ3vFFzH8AmPHE5QaB9po%3D=0 Privacy Policy: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.documentfoundation.org%2Fprivacy=05%7C01%7C%7C8704d084eda04b6e32a908db2eea0047%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638155354795953896%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=hipxyzQfEPahziiEZK9dJRCQxY7pA9ccuU3e6TKMcYg%3D=0
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Culturally, 8 in Asia is a lucky number, signifying prosperity and blessing. It might hit a soft spot in the region, which is the world's largest market. I like the concept. It fits with the idea of Libre. By the way, I'm new to the team -- just joined the other day electronically. Kelv On 2023-03-28 02:20, Nigel Verity wrote: The ability to run LibreOffice on just about every mainstream processor and OS strikes me as a major achievement which ought to be shouted from the hilltops. Debian does the same and is known as "The universal operating system". Perhaps LO should become known as "The universal office suite". No other office suite comes close in that context. It surely warrants something better than a point release. I like the concept of turning the number 8 on its side, though there would inevitably be comments about the concept of "infinity point one" when the subsequent release hits the streets.. Nige LibreOffice - Free and open source office suite: LibreOffice Website<https://www.libreoffice.org> Respects your privacy, and gives you back control over your data From: Italo Vignoli Sent: 27 March 2023 18:11 To: TDF Devs ; TDF Marketing ; TDF Design Subject: [libreoffice-marketing] Moving to LibreOffice 8? Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is that we are forever stuck at 7.x. We all know that the next version will not include any significant innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm processors on Windows (which has not been announced). Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all operating systems for personal productivity. This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a very short memory). Looking forward to your thoughts. -- Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - email it...@libreoffice.org hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.libreoffice.org%2Fget-help%2Fmailing-lists%2Fhow-to-unsubscribe%2F=05%7C01%7C%7C8704d084eda04b6e32a908db2eea0047%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638155354795798091%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=4%2BwivGuUSlrQo9HoCGEE7a4pffZ4NYWl%2Fk3qG3j7rXY%3D=0 Posting guidelines + more: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.documentfoundation.org%2FNetiquette=05%7C01%7C%7C8704d084eda04b6e32a908db2eea0047%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638155354795953896%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=nNEt2hTh18BKRnsBVs%2F4u2JxTWhezPt1JYreHrGLVA8%3D=0 List archive: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flistarchives.libreoffice.org%2Fglobal%2Fmarketing%2F=05%7C01%7C%7C8704d084eda04b6e32a908db2eea0047%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638155354795953896%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=wo0VHwYeHXZR%2FvLBfHSzNvNQ3vFFzH8AmPHE5QaB9po%3D=0 Privacy Policy: https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.documentfoundation.org%2Fprivacy=05%7C01%7C%7C8704d084eda04b6e32a908db2eea0047%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638155354795953896%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=hipxyzQfEPahziiEZK9dJRCQxY7pA9ccuU3e6TKMcYg%3D=0
Re: Moving to LibreOffice 8?
For little that I am involved with LibreOffice itself, I feel like this would be nice move - You can take this as a non-formal feedback of the casual user public: +1 for 8.0, even without a lot of remarkable changes. On Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 2:11 PM Italo Vignoli wrote: > Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing > purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in > the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is > that we are forever stuck at 7.x. > > We all know that the next version will not include any significant > innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new > build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm > processors on Windows (which has not been announced). > > Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the > "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an > infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all > operating systems for personal productivity. > > This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't > insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the > marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I > am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on > the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a > very short memory). > > Looking forward to your thoughts. > -- > Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR > mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - email it...@libreoffice.org > hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com > GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 > DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 > >
Re: Moving to LibreOffice 8?
* Italo Vignoli (it...@libreoffice.org) wrote: > Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing purposes, > as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in the open source > office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is that we are forever > stuck at 7.x. > > We all know that the next version will not include any significant > innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new build > system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm processors on > Windows (which has not been announced). Some time ago, I suggested some cleanups (replacement of sal_Int* types by their standardised versions). Someone pointed out at the time it wasn't possible because it would be an API break, but perhaps we could do it on a major version bump. This was when 7.x was young. So, I'm saying if you are going to bump the major version, it would benefit from some planning ahead rather than a last minute number change so that any other incompatibilities people want to tidy up can be put in. (Irrespective of whether people like my particular change suggestion) Dave > Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the "infinite" > symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an infinite number > of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all operating systems for > personal productivity. > > This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't > insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the > marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I am > not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on the > "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a very > short memory). > > Looking forward to your thoughts. > -- > Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR > mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - email it...@libreoffice.org > hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com > GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 > DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 > -- -Open up your eyes, open up your mind, open up your code --- / Dr. David Alan Gilbert| Running GNU/Linux | Happy \ \dave @ treblig.org | | In Hex / \ _|_ http://www.treblig.org |___/
Re: [libreoffice-design] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
I respectfully disagree with Italo. First, about the "frame of reference". In my opinion, decisions such as major version number bumping are not, first and foremost, marketing decisions. That is a _consideration_, since the version number is declarative than technical. But - such an action should be "truthful" before being "marketable". It is more important, in my opinion, that users and potential users receive trustworthy signaling from the project - not just w.r.t. version numbers, but generally - than for the media to get a gimmick for coverage. A second point is that bumping a version number without a major innovation moves you a few more steps into the category of, say, Firefox and such, where versions just increase automatically with no meaning whatsoever. Italo, you said we are perceived as a "real innovator"; well, when a real innovator starts having hollow version number bumping, that perception fades. Finally, everyone who likes the marketing potential of version 8 - great, but - keep that benefit for when we have a significant step forward to celebrate. Don't squander it. Eyal PS: availability on a new platform is not a reason to bump a version number. It's the "same" software, but built for another target, so same version as before. IMHO anyway. On 27/03/2023 20:11, Italo Vignoli wrote: Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is that we are forever stuck at 7.x. We all know that the next version will not include any significant innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm processors on Windows (which has not been announced). Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all operating systems for personal productivity. This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a very short memory). Looking forward to your thoughts.
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Hi Kelvene, On 28.03.23 00:27, Kelvene Requiroso wrote: Culturally, 8 in Asia is a lucky number, signifying prosperity and blessing. It might hit a soft spot in the region, which is the world's largest market. I like the concept. It fits with the idea of Libre. By the way, I'm new to the team -- just joined the other day electronically. Thanks for the insight about the Asian markets, and welcome to the project! Good to have you on board :-) Cheers, Mike at TDF
Re: Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Hi Italo, all, Italo Vignoli wrote: > On 27/03/23 22:13, Julien Nabet wrote: > > => so 7.6.0 would be 23.05.0 (since a major version is about every 6 > > months and 7.5.0 has been released in November 2022). > > This would have been my choice since years, but it looks like there are > technical restrictions which do not allow to use such a numbering scheme > without some coding. > 23.08 (and 24.02) I guess could be the next versions then. Changing version naming schemes always creates extra work (I suspect not only for developers, but also for marketing & documentation), but perhaps it's indeed time to make the move? I'm not aware the required technical tweaks are prohibitive (of course we need to listen to feedback from in particular downstream Linux packagers), and it would make our life a lot easier in the future, for e.g. switching to a rolling release model. Cheers, -- Thorsten signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Moving to LibreOffice 8?
On 27/03/23 22:13, Julien Nabet wrote: Using LO 8 would attract some light of media for some time ok but they'll conclude quite quickly the same as you've just said: "no significant innovation which can justify the change of version" so we would have just obeyed to marketing rules for them. Don't give too much credit to the media, they desperatedly need news so they will stick to our message. No one will dig deeply enough to get to that conclusion, and those who might do are our friends and as such would support the narrative. IMHO, we should use 7.6 for the next major release or if marketing absolutely wants media to talk about LO, we may also partly use "Ubuntu" style: LibreOffice <2 last digits of the year>.digits>. => so 7.6.0 would be 23.05.0 (since a major version is about every 6 months and 7.5.0 has been released in November 2022). This would have been my choice since years, but it looks like there are technical restrictions which do not allow to use such a numbering scheme without some coding. -- Italo Vignoli - it...@vignoli.org mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0
Re: Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is that we are forever stuck at 7.x. We all know that the next version will not include any significant innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm processors on Windows (which has not been announced)... Hello, Using LO 8 would attract some light of media for some time ok but they'll conclude quite quickly the same as you've just said: "no significant innovation which can justify the change of version" so we would have just obeyed to marketing rules for them. IMHO, we should use 7.6 for the next major release or if marketing absolutely wants media to talk about LO, we may also partly use "Ubuntu" style: LibreOffice <2 last digits of the year>.digits>. => so 7.6.0 would be 23.05.0 (since a major version is about every 6 months and 7.5.0 has been released in November 2022). At least, it's clear and predictable, except after 2099 but it lets us a bit of time to prepare oneself to the 4 digits year :-) Anyway, don't bother too much, there'll always be people complaining and people ok with the decision. The pb is that even if complaining people corresponds to 1%, you'll hear about them more than the OK people. Julien
Moving to LibreOffice 8?
Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is that we are forever stuck at 7.x. We all know that the next version will not include any significant innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm processors on Windows (which has not been announced). Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all operating systems for personal productivity. This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a very short memory). Looking forward to your thoughts. -- Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - email it...@libreoffice.org hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0
