Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
* Michael Meeks schrieb: > Luckily we have a micro-distro now; complete with our own build system, > and method of packaging; it is called the "onebigblob" microdistro - and > it works as badly as can be expected when trying to target all distros. No. It works as good as possible with the underlying OS (maybe downto the kernel) and the used packages ever can. It's indepent from other libraries on the system, as it brings them all on its own. But the release engieering process is _completely_ different, it's _much_ easier to maintain and keep it up2date then with bundled sources. > So - I appreicate the desire to rip stuff out of LibreOffice - but we > should focus on the low hanging fruit that Caolan identified first. My primary desire in this project is stability and reliability, with minimal maintenance overhead. Bundled library sources, and the whole idea of mixing up package and distro issues, make this particularily hard. > I fully anticipate that the vast majority of users on Linux will get > their LibreOffice from their distribution with system libraries used > everywhere: which produces a better product; -however- this does not > mean it is worthless having generic builds - particularly since we have > a QA team that is dispersed across many Linux's. The is no such thing as a generic build. You _always_ have certain dependencies and environment parameters to deal with. The only way out of this is an completely self-contained VM image. cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ phone: +49 36207 519931 email: weig...@metux.de mobile: +49 151 27565287 icq: 210169427 skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme -- ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
* Wols Lists schrieb: > The system is called GUB (for Grand Universal Binary). static linking ? > And it's pretty successful. Well, up to the point where it unnecessarily eats up resources due massive code duplication and security holes in ancient bundled libraries open up your system like a wide field ... ;-o I wouldn't ever allow those packages in enterprise environments, you'll never know what risks you buy with it. cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ phone: +49 36207 519931 email: weig...@metux.de mobile: +49 151 27565287 icq: 210169427 skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme -- ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
* Caolán McNamara schrieb: > > Trivial: your own microdistro. (prefix build approach, etc). > > Honestly, how is that supposed to work. With Briegel: quite simple. Just properly state the dependencies in the package descriptors, tell the target-config to use different installation pathes, switch to static linking (so no LD_LIBRARY_PATH-tweaking wrapper scripts, like done in moz+frieds needed), start the build machinery and get some coffee. Guess, there're other distro-buildtools which can do it a similar way. > It's definitely the case that distros should build libreoffice > --with-system-libs, but if we provide binary install packages > available for download from http://www.libreoffice.org/download/ then we > either In this case you'll have your own distro anyways, no matter you've already realized it ;-o > a) don't provide Linux packages at all, and rely on distros building it, Should be the default case. > b) build one/two Linux Universal packages that target all/most of them, These won't be "universal" in any way, just target for an (unclear) intersection of the major distros. Stability/reliability will be quite debatable. > and I'll all in favour of dropping the obvious libs which we can now > rely on being installed everywhere, but I disagree that its doable for > all third-party libs, with icu being an obvious to me example. Even for icu it's quite simple: mvcc installations. Many distros already do that. This is an distro-, NOT package-issue. > c) build a massive pile of Linux packages for loads of different > distros. Essentially the same as a), if you directly cooperate with the distros in question. Still: distro issue. > If we build packages that target a micro-distro with e.g. icu4.4 on it Wait, not "A" microdistro. _OUR_ microdistro (more precisely: prefix microdistro), which contains exactly what's required to run LO. > and configure it --with-system-libs then those packages will not install > without libicu4.4 available on the users real computer. We either bundle > it in, or they have to get it from somewhere else. All "bundling" is done by the LO-microdistro, but the LO package. First, essential lesson to learn: differenciate between individual packages and distros. cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ phone: +49 36207 519931 email: weig...@metux.de mobile: +49 151 27565287 icq: 210169427 skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme -- ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
On 31/01/11 00:32, Enrico Weigelt wrote: >> Little bit trickier when putting on a ISV hat and trying to target >> > all Linux distros > One binpkg for all distros ?! The whole idea of this is stupid. > Some of my customers didn't listen to me and tried that at any > cost, they failed miserably. I haven't the slightest bit if pity ;-o > Dare I suggest you take a look at lilypond? Free Software. And that is precisely what they ship - a single package that will install on any distro! The system is called GUB (for Grand Universal Binary). And it's pretty successful. I'm not sure to what extent it's lilypond-specific - I know it's not *meant* to be, but as they are the only project I know of that use it, there's a good chance there are a fair few lilypond-isms in it. And lilypond is a big mix of things, it's mostly written in Scheme, but has a lot of low-level code written in C++, used to invoke latex, uses ghostscript, has a chunk of python or perl or some other scripting language in there. Etc etc. So one binary for all distros isn't that unachievable ... :-) Cheers, Wol ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 01:27:07PM +, Michael Meeks wrote: > > Francois: I expect you to google Tor Lillqvist, and think a bit more > before typing. I'm sure Tor is a nice fellow; I'm sorry if some of my mails seemed rude, that was not my intent. > this does not > mean it is worthless having generic builds - particularly since we have > a QA team that is dispersed across many Linux's. I never said it was; I merely objected to the inclusion of out-of-date and unmaintained software in LO. -- Francois Tigeot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
On Mon, 2011-01-31 at 14:38 +, Caolán McNamara wrote: > On Mon, 2011-01-31 at 13:30 +, Michael Meeks wrote: > > and xml security foo - AFAIR the cert management > > stuff in moz really needs pushing down to NSS, or splitting out. > > IIRC the real stuff that xmlsecurity needs is all in NSS, while the only > bit that xmlsecurity needs from MOZ is simply to *find* the mozilla > profile in order to locate the certificate database and I may already > have some ifdefs in there to do-the-right-thing and find it without > having to link to any moz libraries in order to do that. Oooh - it would be nice to drop the MOZ dependency for everything except the connectivity piece :-) sounds much nicer. Regards, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
On Mon, 2011-01-31 at 13:30 +, Michael Meeks wrote: > and xml security foo - AFAIR the cert management > stuff in moz really needs pushing down to NSS, or splitting out. IIRC the real stuff that xmlsecurity needs is all in NSS, while the only bit that xmlsecurity needs from MOZ is simply to *find* the mozilla profile in order to locate the certificate database and I may already have some ifdefs in there to do-the-right-thing and find it without having to link to any moz libraries in order to do that. C. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
On Sat, 2011-01-29 at 14:44 +0100, Francois Tigeot wrote: > I'm still trying to figure out the autogen.sh stuff and make it use the > correct paths for libraries; one of the errors I got is really freaking > me out: :-) > Why would LO need to build it own version of Mozilla/Seamonkey !? > And why such an old version; it must be full of security holes by now... The first line of */prj/build.lst lists dependencies for a module: $ grep MOZ:moz */prj/build.lst connectivity/prj/build.lst:cn connectivity:shell l10n comphelper MOZ:moz svl UNIXODBC:unixODBC unoil javaunohelper HSQLDB:hsqldb qadevOOo officecfg NSS:nss NULL libxmlsec/prj/build.lst:ls libxmlsec : stlport soltools LIBXML2:libxml2 MOZ:moz NULL xmlsecurity/prj/build.lst:xsxmlsecurity :l10n xmloff unotools offapi unoil svx MOZ:moz LIBXMLSEC:libxmlsec NSS:nss NULL Which in laymans terms means - we use it for connectivity (moz adressbook I guess), and xml security foo - AFAIR the cert management stuff in moz really needs pushing down to NSS, or splitting out. Clearly, we could take a big knife to Mozilla to pare out the vast majority of it that we do not need, and keep those two - it would be even more wonderful to get that split out up-stream. Could you help hack on that ? ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
On Sun, 2011-01-30 at 22:11 +0100, Enrico Weigelt wrote: > No, simply state the depencies and let the distros handle the rest. > For old legacy systems, simply create an own micro-distro. Luckily we have a micro-distro now; complete with our own build system, and method of packaging; it is called the "onebigblob" microdistro - and it works as badly as can be expected when trying to target all distros. So - I appreicate the desire to rip stuff out of LibreOffice - but we should focus on the low hanging fruit that Caolan identified first. Francois: I expect you to google Tor Lillqvist, and think a bit more before typing. I fully anticipate that the vast majority of users on Linux will get their LibreOffice from their distribution with system libraries used everywhere: which produces a better product; -however- this does not mean it is worthless having generic builds - particularly since we have a QA team that is dispersed across many Linux's. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
On Mon, 2011-01-31 at 01:32 +0100, Enrico Weigelt wrote: > One binpkg for all distros ?! The whole idea of this is stupid. > > > What's the target distro that the universal build on e.g. the website > > download site should pick. > > Trivial: your own microdistro. (prefix build approach, etc). Honestly, how is that supposed to work. It's definitely the case that distros should build libreoffice --with-system-libs, but if we provide binary install packages available for download from http://www.libreoffice.org/download/ then we either a) don't provide Linux packages at all, and rely on distros building it, which is a tenable argument. b) build one/two Linux Universal packages that target all/most of them, and I'll all in favour of dropping the obvious libs which we can now rely on being installed everywhere, but I disagree that its doable for all third-party libs, with icu being an obvious to me example. c) build a massive pile of Linux packages for loads of different distros. If we build packages that target a micro-distro with e.g. icu4.4 on it and configure it --with-system-libs then those packages will not install without libicu4.4 available on the users real computer. We either bundle it in, or they have to get it from somewhere else. C. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
* Caolán McNamara schrieb: > That's the argument in favour for using --with-system-libs and its > definitely the right choice for distros. The right choice for everybody who's not completely lobotomized ;-P > Little bit trickier when putting on a ISV hat and trying to target > all Linux distros One binpkg for all distros ?! The whole idea of this is stupid. Some of my customers didn't listen to me and tried that at any cost, they failed miserably. I haven't the slightest bit if pity ;-o > > Is there any reason to have to still carry around ancient buggy > > bundled zlib ? > > Windows. Why can't zlib simply be expected to be installed in some proper place before building the actual application, as done on every sane platform ? > Sure, and the xpdf thing is a bit of a disaster as well. ? > What's the target distro that the universal build on e.g. the website > download site should pick. Trivial: your own microdistro. (prefix build approach, etc). > We also definitely need to update to the latest stable versions of all > the libs-extern/libs-extern-sys that we do have. You really like to burn your resources for that all the time ? cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ phone: +49 36207 519931 email: weig...@metux.de mobile: +49 151 27565287 icq: 210169427 skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme -- ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
On Sun, 2011-01-30 at 22:26 +0100, Enrico Weigelt wrote: > * Caolán McNamara schrieb: > > > For a distro build configuring with --with-system-libs will generally > > do-the-right-thing. > > What happens when the software depends on some ancient, long solved > bug that's maybe still in the old bundled version ? You'll have to > support both the ancient bundled and the current deps, which over > time increases maintenance overhead exponentially. That's the argument in favour for using --with-system-libs and its definitely the right choice for distros. Little bit trickier when putting on a ISV hat and trying to target all Linux distros > > For a universal Linux build that has to run everywhere we can probably > > at this stage definitely default to --with-system zlib, jpeg and some > > other ones where the ABI have been stable for yonks and are ubiquitous. > > Is there any reason to have to still carry around ancient buggy > bundled zlib ? Windows. For Linux, yeah zlib and jpeg and a few others are definitely indefensible. > Seems so. For example, openssl can be expected to exist on any sane > system in our scope. Sure, and the xpdf thing is a bit of a disaster as well. > > > a) hunspell sometimes changes its ABI to an Libo build against one > > version of it may not be able to run against another. > > Always rebuild on the individual target distro's latest stable line. What's the target distro that the universal build on e.g. the website download site should pick. Hard choice. That's the catch. Pick e.g. RHEL-6 and the packages can't work on RHEL-5 seeing as they have different icu versions and so on. We should nail the easy ones anyway, but I don't think we can nail *all* of them. We also definitely need to update to the latest stable versions of all the libs-extern/libs-extern-sys that we do have. C. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
* Caolán McNamara schrieb: > For a distro build configuring with --with-system-libs will generally > do-the-right-thing. What happens when the software depends on some ancient, long solved bug that's maybe still in the old bundled version ? You'll have to support both the ancient bundled and the current deps, which over time increases maintenance overhead exponentially. > For a universal Linux build that has to run everywhere we can probably > at this stage definitely default to --with-system zlib, jpeg and some > other ones where the ABI have been stable for yonks and are ubiquitous. Is there any reason to have to still carry around ancient buggy bundled zlib ? Look, the generic case is a system which already has the required libs installed (or allows to install them trivially). Old legacy platforms are the specific cases. For those cases you can add some script that does a prefix build/install of the missing packages before building LO itself, and then creates a selfcontained blob package. > The clone dirs are split into libs-extern and libs-extern-sys, I imagine > the thinking at the moment is that one ones in libs-extern-sys are the > ones that would reasonably be expected to be preinstalled these days, > though f.e. Seems so. For example, openssl can be expected to exist on any sane system in our scope. And here it is *IMPORTANT* to use an up-to-date version. As an enterprise operator, I'd *NEVER* install any package that brings it's own (outdated) openssl copy, for essential security reasons. > a) hunspell sometimes changes its ABI to an Libo build against one > version of it may not be able to run against another. Always rebuild on the individual target distro's latest stable line. Modern distros support MVCC installations for such cases or have other mechanisms for solving such problems. > b) major version of icu always change their ABI, so a Libo build against > one e.g. icu 4.4 will not work if deployed against 4.2 etc. Exactly the case for an MVCC installation. Quite common, boring topic. cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ phone: +49 36207 519931 email: weig...@metux.de mobile: +49 151 27565287 icq: 210169427 skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme -- ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
* Francois Tigeot schrieb: > Should LO be including 3rd party software to facilitate the work of people who > don't know what they are doing ? At the cost of everybody else ? (from devs through package/dist maintainers to end users who all have to waste lots of their resources) > > But I do think that somebody running some random old Unix box would prefer > > to get an all-inclusing LibreOffice package. > > Who are these people ? Do they really exist ? Yes, where do they live ? In some deep caves or on high mointains ? I'd really like to know some of these guys ... ;-o > All live platforms have to be proactive in managing software; if you decide > to freeze some old version of a third-party library or program and include > it in LO, this software will suffer from bit-rot, accumulate uncorrected bugs > and security issues. > > You may try to patch it yourself, but this will increase your work and become > unsustainable after a while. > In the end, LibreOffice will become a worse product. That's exactly one of the _major_ problems that made OO so bad and kept possible devs (including myself) away. cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ phone: +49 36207 519931 email: weig...@metux.de mobile: +49 151 27565287 icq: 210169427 skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme -- ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
* Tor Lillqvist schrieb: > Please, are you talking about third-party source code included > in the LibreOffice source code (git repositories), source code > downloaded as part of the build process (unless one tells it > to use a "system" library), or binaries from either of those > included in a binary package? Or all of these? *All* source packages. Binariy packages are an entirely different issue, as they're always generated for a specific platform (eg. for old legacy platforms w/o proper package management, it's easy to set up an minimal solution that pulls together everything into a superbig selfcontained binpkg). > > Up-to-date software can also be used on old Unixes / Linux > > systems without too much pain. > > Sure, as long as you know what you are doing and packages > from various 3rd-party repositories (or self-built) are > in sync with what LibreOffice expects. It's all about proper interfaces. Just always sit on the recent stable interfaces and install missing packages when necessary. > But I do think that somebody running some random old Unix > box would prefer to get an all-inclusing LibreOffice package. As said above: code some little glue scripts which create some prefix installation image. > Instead of complex advice like "additionally you should install > foolib from this site, but be careful not to let it overwrite > the binary incompatible build of foolib from this other site > that you might have already" No, simply state the depencies and let the distros handle the rest. For old legacy systems, simply create an own micro-distro. cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ phone: +49 36207 519931 email: weig...@metux.de mobile: +49 151 27565287 icq: 210169427 skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme -- ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
On Sat, 2011-01-29 at 14:00 +0100, Enrico Weigelt wrote: > Hi folks, > > > one of the things which always unnverved me most in OO is the fact > that it ships own copies of dozens of standard 3rd-party packages, > often very outdated and patched-to-death. For a distro build configuring with --with-system-libs will generally do-the-right-thing. For a universal Linux build that has to run everywhere we can probably at this stage definitely default to --with-system zlib, jpeg and some other ones where the ABI have been stable for yonks and are ubiquitous. The clone dirs are split into libs-extern and libs-extern-sys, I imagine the thinking at the moment is that one ones in libs-extern-sys are the ones that would reasonably be expected to be preinstalled these days, though f.e. a) hunspell sometimes changes its ABI to an Libo build against one version of it may not be able to run against another. b) major version of icu always change their ABI, so a Libo build against one e.g. icu 4.4 will not work if deployed against 4.2 etc. C. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 11:01:13AM -0700, Tor Lillqvist wrote: > >> IMHO, there's no reason to include old versions of third-party packages in > >> LibreOffice proper. > > Please, are you talking about third-party source code > - included in the LibreOffice source code (git repositories), > - source code downloaded as part of the build process > - binaries from either of those included in a binary package? Or all of these? All of them: binaries come from source code. > > Up-to-date software can also be used on old Unixes / Linux systems without > > too > > much pain. > > Sure, as long as you know what you are doing Should LO be including 3rd party software to facilitate the work of people who don't know what they are doing ? > But I do think that somebody running some random old Unix box would prefer > to get an all-inclusing LibreOffice package. Who are these people ? Do they really exist ? >From a quick glance at the source code, I've counted exactly 3 old Unices supported in LibreOffice: Solaris, OSF/1 and AIX. All of them can at the bare minimum use software packages managed by pkgsrc, with dependencies and versionning. Of these three platforms, one of them is pretty much dead: OSF/1 was also known as Digital Unix and Tru64 and ran on Alpha systems. After the sale of Digital to Compaq and the sale of Compaq to HP, Alpha systems were discontinued. According to HP, the last one was sold in 2007. The official HP Unix is HP/UX, and is currently not supported by LibreOffice. > Instead of complex advice like "additionally you should install foolib from > this site, but be careful not to let it overwrite the binary incompatible > build of foolib from this other site that you might have already" What exactly are we gaining here by not doing that ? All live platforms have to be proactive in managing software; if you decide to freeze some old version of a third-party library or program and include it in LO, this software will suffer from bit-rot, accumulate uncorrected bugs and security issues. You may try to patch it yourself, but this will increase your work and become unsustainable after a while. In the end, LibreOffice will become a worse product. -- Francois Tigeot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
>> IMHO, there's no reason to include old versions of third-party packages in >> LibreOffice proper. Please, are you talking about third-party source code included in the LibreOffice source code (git repositories), source code downloaded as part of the build process (unless one tells it to use a "system" library), or binaries from either of those included in a binary package? Or all of these? > Up-to-date software can also be used on old Unixes / Linux systems without too > much pain. Sure, as long as you know what you are doing and packages from various 3rd-party repositories (or self-built) are in sync with what LibreOffice expects. But I do think that somebody running some random old Unix box would prefer to get an all-inclusing LibreOffice package. Instead of complex advice like "additionally you should install foolib from this site, but be careful not to let it overwrite the binary incompatible build of foolib from this other site that you might have already" --tml ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
* Francois Tigeot schrieb: > There are all sorts of solutions: > > - using the vendor framework (if they still care/are alive) > - installation by hand (configure / make / make install) > - lightweight management with tools such as stow: > > http://unmaintainable.wordpress.com/2007/01/14/package-management-using-stow/ > - using a third-party framework. Two of them come to mind: > - OpenPKG http://www.openpkg.org/ > - pkgsrc http://www.netbsd.org/docs/software/packages.html#platforms > > IMHO, there's no reason to include old versions of third-party packages in > LibreOffice proper. ACK, couldn't aggree more. A few years ago (when I still did a lot of operating), I used my own buildsystem (called Briegel, ICAC) to build micro-distros ontop of existing systems (specially adapted to the individual target). Lack of proper package management on certain old cruft systems is not an legitimate reason to carry around old cruft 3rdparty packages in application's sourcetrees ;-p > In addition to all the included junk, I remember OpenOffice needing a > special-purpose version of gcc to be compiled. Yep, that was the biggest insanity I've ever seen in opensource world. (yes, in certain commercial/inhouse environments that's not so unusual, just having that in a current project ;-o) > Should we go the same path again ? Never ever, IMHO. cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ phone: +49 36207 519931 email: weig...@metux.de mobile: +49 151 27565287 icq: 210169427 skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme -- ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 08:36:35AM -0700, Tor Lillqvist wrote: > > it ships own copies of dozens of standard 3rd-party packages, > > "standard" from the viewpoint of up-to-date Linux distros, that is. Don't > forget that LibreOffice is supposed to run also on not-so-up-to-date Linux > installations. > > And of course, various other Unixes too (although I don't know if we have any > active builders/packagers except for BSDs), on which one can be even les sure > that there are up-to-date "standard" 3rd-party packages available. Up-to-date software can also be used on old Unixes / Linux systems without too much pain. In some of my previous jobs, I had to manage software installations for systems running such things as OSF/1, AIX, Solaris/Sparc, Irix, etc... There are all sorts of solutions: - using the vendor framework (if they still care/are alive) - installation by hand (configure / make / make install) - lightweight management with tools such as stow: http://unmaintainable.wordpress.com/2007/01/14/package-management-using-stow/ - using a third-party framework. Two of them come to mind: - OpenPKG http://www.openpkg.org/ - pkgsrc http://www.netbsd.org/docs/software/packages.html#platforms IMHO, there's no reason to include old versions of third-party packages in LibreOffice proper. In addition to all the included junk, I remember OpenOffice needing a special-purpose version of gcc to be compiled. Should we go the same path again ? -- Francois Tigeot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
Hi, On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 08:36:35AM -0700, Tor Lillqvist wrote: > And of course, various other Unixes too (although I don't know if we have any > active builders/packagers except for BSDs), on which one can be even les sure > that there are up-to-date "standard" 3rd-party packages available. Well, they have "ports" with (more or less) uptodate libs. That's the *exact* same situation as on Linux distros. Just packages vs. ports. Grüße/Regards, René -- .''`. René Engelhard -- Debian GNU/Linux Developer : :' : http://www.debian.org | http://people.debian.org/~rene/ `. `' r...@debian.org | GnuPG-Key ID: D03E3E70 `- Fingerprint: E12D EA46 7506 70CF A960 801D 0AA0 4571 D03E 3E70 ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
Hi, On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 04:59:27PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote: > On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 08:36:35AM -0700, Tor Lillqvist wrote: > > > it ships own copies of dozens of standard 3rd-party packages, > > > > "standard" from the viewpoint of up-to-date Linux distros, that is. Don't > > forget that LibreOffice is supposed to run also on not-so-up-to-date Linux > > installations. (As far as I know, the generic Linux build of LibreOffice > > is, or am I confusing with go-oo times?) > > Nah, there's also various internal libs so old that they were even outdated > years ago (zlib for example) sent to early. I also wanted to mention what consequences this can have: *ANY* upload to Debian containing a internal zlib will be automatically rejected. And TTBOMK there's no way to get anything with internal zlib into Debian as the error is not overridable. And that#s pure because zlib gets security issues often - and you wouldn't want to touch all packages using zlib. The same argument applies to all of the other libraries, too. 3.3.0 picked up libxml2 and xpdf (using xpdf is a bug anyway, poppler should be used) fixes for internal libraries... Grüße/Regards, René -- .''`. René Engelhard -- Debian GNU/Linux Developer : :' : http://www.debian.org | http://people.debian.org/~rene/ `. `' r...@debian.org | GnuPG-Key ID: D03E3E70 `- Fingerprint: E12D EA46 7506 70CF A960 801D 0AA0 4571 D03E 3E70 ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
Hi, On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 08:36:35AM -0700, Tor Lillqvist wrote: > > it ships own copies of dozens of standard 3rd-party packages, > > "standard" from the viewpoint of up-to-date Linux distros, that is. Don't > forget that LibreOffice is supposed to run also on not-so-up-to-date Linux > installations. (As far as I know, the generic Linux build of LibreOffice is, > or am I confusing with go-oo times?) Nah, there's also various internal libs so old that they were even outdated years ago (zlib for example) > And then there is Windows. Which we can ignore for not requring external libs on Linux :) > In general, isn't a LibreOffice purpose-built for some modern Linux distro > *already* using the system copies of these libraries, not its own copies? If it's possible and the distro cares, yes. Grüße/Regards, René -- .''`. René Engelhard -- Debian GNU/Linux Developer : :' : http://www.debian.org | http://people.debian.org/~rene/ `. `' r...@debian.org | GnuPG-Key ID: D03E3E70 `- Fingerprint: E12D EA46 7506 70CF A960 801D 0AA0 4571 D03E 3E70 ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
> it ships own copies of dozens of standard 3rd-party packages, "standard" from the viewpoint of up-to-date Linux distros, that is. Don't forget that LibreOffice is supposed to run also on not-so-up-to-date Linux installations. (As far as I know, the generic Linux build of LibreOffice is, or am I confusing with go-oo times?) And of course, various other Unixes too (although I don't know if we have any active builders/packagers except for BSDs), on which one can be even les sure that there are up-to-date "standard" 3rd-party packages available. And then there is Windows. In general, isn't a LibreOffice purpose-built for some modern Linux distro *already* using the system copies of these libraries, not its own copies? --tml ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Kicking off 3rdparty packages
On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 02:00:05PM +0100, Enrico Weigelt wrote: > > one of the things which always unnverved me most in OO is the fact > that it ships own copies of dozens of standard 3rd-party packages, > often very outdated and patched-to-death. Obviously this is a > nightmare for package engineering. > > We'll still have to go a long way to get that mess cleaned up, > but we should start now. I couldn't agree more. I'm still trying to figure out the autogen.sh stuff and make it use the correct paths for libraries; one of the errors I got is really freaking me out: checking for mozilla sources... checking for a169ab152209200a7bad29a275cb0333-seamonkey-1.1.14.source.tar.gz... will be fetched checking for MOZLIBREQ... no configure: error: GTK2 is needed to build mozilla. configure --help output is also a bit funny: --disable-mozilla LibO usually includes a strangely hacked up mozilla binary for your platform, to build without this version, use this option. Why would LO need to build it own version of Mozilla/Seamonkey !? And why such an old version; it must be full of security holes by now... -- Francois Tigeot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
