Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
Thank you all for the replies, was a great discussion. :-) I won't persist in this idea, even discording in the actual situation. Let's go back for coding... $ cd libo/wizards/com/sun/star/wizards :-( Regards, Júlio. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
Hi Júlio, On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 20:49:57 -0300 Júlio Hoffimann wrote: > The gradual migration is the only way i see to change thousand of > names. Even with regular expressions, the task is not easy to do. There are feature branches. Absolutely no need to do this on master. > Again, painful today, amazing tomorrow. With "today" being the next five years. Five years that are absolutely critical for the project. With "amazing" being absolutely not the word I would use to describe the result (see Christians reply too). If this would be about renaming classes with misleading names to something that that really describes its job or something like using the same consistent internal variable naming scheme _that_ is helping in the long run, ok. Unlike that, changing one proper name "com::sun::star::" to another "libreoffice::" is only providing minor benefits, but also has major drawbacks. > The truth: we have fear to make big changes and this is not a good > paradigm, it turns LibreOffice just another fork and it's more than > that. Please dont tell me that I am afraid of changes. If you would know how much I fought inside OOo for change, you would realize how ridiculous that is. Best, Bjoern -- https://launchpad.net/~bjoern-michaelsen signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
Júlio Hoffimann wrote (19-04-11 18:12) Btw, LibreOffice was born ~one year ago, "backwards" doesn't make so much sense. The aim was and still is to be the continuation of. So let's be careful with out assets, the users and companies that build on us. Cor -- - http://nl.libreoffice.org - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
Hi *, 2011/4/20 Júlio Hoffimann : > The gradual migration is the only way i see to change thousand of names. > Even with regular expressions, the task is not easy to do. Well, easy or hard to do doesn't matter, when the benefit is not so clear to other people. I for example do not see anything that would be "amazing tomorrow". I just don't see the point in this. It is just work without amy benefit to me. No benefit for the user (only trouble if at all, if the user is using extensions that would have to be adapted), no benefit for extension developers (they don't care how it's namespace is, they need to find the functionality in the API), no benefit for core developers (again, why would the name matter). You only see the code, that's fine, but when you really want to change this, this means you have to change the complete API documentation, you have to tell publishers that they have to revise their books, etc. It's just not worth the time in my opinion. Regarding your point wrt. backwards compatibily is no problem since LibreOffice is so young: That just doesn't fit, as it of course has the 10 years+ of history of StarOffice and then OpenOffice.org - If you want OOo users to migrate to LO, you cannot just say "We don't care about what was before LO was born"... ciao Christian ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
The gradual migration is the only way i see to change thousand of names. Even with regular expressions, the task is not easy to do. About the half percentage of Easy Hacks, no matters. We are doing it (in parallel), that is important. Tor was the first to say something really problematic about the migration: the bug reports, the names in the build, in the logs, etc. Again, painful today, amazing tomorrow. I know, we are close a release, there is no chance to initiate such a migration now. I'm talking about a long-term change where you - main developers - would not realize, but we - external contributors - would learn the code naturally. Maybe do the task module by module to mask the "giant migration"... i don't know what you want. The truth: we have fear to make big changes and this is not a good paradigm, it turns LibreOffice just another fork and it's more than that. Regards, Júlio. > IMHO doing a "gradual migration" is not a good idea here. Such > things should be done in one deep cut, because: > - having two names for the same thing will just add to newcomer > confusion, esp. if he ends up in a piece of code that mixes both > happily. This will one only have benefits once it is completed and > will even hurt in the meantime. > - historical evidence (tools string vs. sal string) shows how well > "gradual transitions" work when not tightly enforced. > - we will not tightly enforce this one as it is not providing essential > benefits compared to other work. > - while it is true that this can be done by EasyHackers, I really dont > thing there is any lack of EasyHacks. There are other tasks like: > > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Easy_Hacks#Get_rid_of_SV_DECL_VARARR.2C_SV_DECL_VARARR_PLAIN.2C_SV_DECL_VARARR_SORT_.. > .. > (or migration to the new build system) that also only really benefit > the project when fully completed. It is better to have one such > EasyHacks finished (and being rewarded by the benefit) than having > five such EasyHacks finished 20% (or even 50%) and having no benefit > for the project whatsoever. > > Just my 2 euro cents, > > Bjoern > > -- > https://launchpad.net/~bjoern-michaelsen > > ___ > LibreOffice mailing list > LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice > > ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
Hi Caolán, On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 09:55:59 +0100 Caolán McNamara wrote: > namespace libreoffice = com::sun::star;, or something of that nature, > in some header probably isn't the worst idea in the world. Though it > does generate a lot of churn to go around changing anything, and the > other language bindings, e.g. java and so on, wouldn't be affected, > which i guess has the potential for some extra confusion. IMHO doing a "gradual migration" is not a good idea here. Such things should be done in one deep cut, because: - having two names for the same thing will just add to newcomer confusion, esp. if he ends up in a piece of code that mixes both happily. This will one only have benefits once it is completed and will even hurt in the meantime. - historical evidence (tools string vs. sal string) shows how well "gradual transitions" work when not tightly enforced. - we will not tightly enforce this one as it is not providing essential benefits compared to other work. - while it is true that this can be done by EasyHackers, I really dont thing there is any lack of EasyHacks. There are other tasks like: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Easy_Hacks#Get_rid_of_SV_DECL_VARARR.2C_SV_DECL_VARARR_PLAIN.2C_SV_DECL_VARARR_SORT_ (or migration to the new build system) that also only really benefit the project when fully completed. It is better to have one such EasyHacks finished (and being rewarded by the benefit) than having five such EasyHacks finished 20% (or even 50%) and having no benefit for the project whatsoever. Just my 2 euro cents, Bjoern -- https://launchpad.net/~bjoern-michaelsen signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
Hi Tor, This is a real problem, but i think it's necessary if we need to grow faster. Every migration or any big change is painful, i'm here now trying to remove Blitz++ dependency in a particular project to use the Boost libraries. Painful today, amazing tomorrow. :-) Regards, Júlio. 2011/4/19 Tor Lillqvist > > The change would be made gradually, the build would not break, namespaces > are > > just aliases. > > So one would code as if stuff was in various libreoffice::foo namespaces, > but in all compiler and linker error messages, in debugger backtraces in bug > reports etc, one would still see the actual com::sun::star:: stuff? Sounds > painful. > > --tml > > > ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
> The change would be made gradually, the build would not break, namespaces are > just aliases. So one would code as if stuff was in various libreoffice::foo namespaces, but in all compiler and linker error messages, in debugger backtraces in bug reports etc, one would still see the actual com::sun::star:: stuff? Sounds painful. --tml ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
Hi Joop, The first message in this conversation does exactly what you said. The change would be made gradually, the build would not break, namespaces are just aliases. When the last old name is removed, the header is not useful and should be removed by regexp again. Regards, Júlio. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
As this is an API issue, maybe it's an idea to create a new, cleaner, namespace scheme first and deprecate the old way but not disable it yet... Maybe you could think of finally removing the old namespaces completely in LibreOffice 4 or something like that (a new mayor version is a good moment to break API's)... This way extensions have time to transition. 2011/4/19 Júlio Hoffimann : >> If this is about those com::sun::start::whatever namespaces specifically, >> then I think it's part of the UNO interfaces and as such it needs to be >> kept >> for backwards compatibility for extensions. > > I think this is a wrong vision, this is why the code is like it is. Maintain > backwards compatibility *in this case* makes the code a mix of previous and > confusing versions, we need new compatibilities. Btw, LibreOffice was born > ~one year ago, "backwards" doesn't make so much sense. > Anyway, i don't have the expertise you have, my vision is superfluous. Just > trying to help the project. > Regards, > Júlio. > ___ > LibreOffice mailing list > LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice > > ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
> > If this is about those com::sun::start::whatever namespaces specifically, > then I think it's part of the UNO interfaces and as such it needs to be > kept > for backwards compatibility for extensions. I think this is a wrong vision, this is why the code is like it is. Maintain backwards compatibility *in this case* makes the code a mix of previous and confusing versions, we need new compatibilities. Btw, LibreOffice was born ~one year ago, "backwards" doesn't make so much sense. Anyway, i don't have the expertise you have, my vision is superfluous. Just trying to help the project. Regards, Júlio. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
On Tuesday 19 of April 2011, Júlio Hoffimann wrote: > Hi Caolán, > > I was thinking in the LibreOffice identity too. Renaming the namespaces > created by sun and other previous versions would help us to understand the > code, but also would make we feel in a new software, a real community > software. This is not so hard to do because C++ is powerful as we know, and > if we try to imagine the suite in the future, is not great to maintain old > names in the source, we need an identity! :-) It would probably help if you were more specific with your proposal. Renaming things in the code just because it's now called LibreOffice is probably not worth it (there's still enough code that has naming from the times it was called StarOffice). Being more specific would also (hopefully) help others to understand what improvement you expect from it - believe it or not, what you as a newcomer may find batshit insane may look perfectly normal to long time developers since they've simply already gotten used to it. If this is about those com::sun::start::whatever namespaces specifically, then I think it's part of the UNO interfaces and as such it needs to be kept for backwards compatibility for extensions. -- Lubos Lunak l.lu...@suse.cz ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
Hi Caolán, I was thinking in the LibreOffice identity too. Renaming the namespaces created by sun and other previous versions would help us to understand the code, but also would make we feel in a new software, a real community software. This is not so hard to do because C++ is powerful as we know, and if we try to imagine the suite in the future, is not great to maintain old names in the source, we need an identity! :-) Again, if you approve the idea, just pass this task for us, would be a pleasure. Thanks for reply, Júlio. 2011/4/19 Caolán McNamara > On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 18:27 -0300, Júlio Hoffimann wrote: > > Hi devs, > > > > > > How hard is to rename all the C++ namespaces to most comprehensive and > > consistent names with the project? > > Well, one fairly common pattern is sprinkled around of... > > namespace css = com::sun::star; > namespace cssu = com::sun::star::uno; > > Sticking e.g. an additional namespace alias of > > namespace libreoffice = com::sun::star;, or something of that nature, in > some header probably isn't the worst idea in the world. Though it does > generate a lot of churn to go around changing anything, and the other > language bindings, e.g. java and so on, wouldn't be affected, which i > guess has the potential for some extra confusion. > > C. > > > ___ > LibreOffice mailing list > LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice > ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 18:27 -0300, Júlio Hoffimann wrote: > Hi devs, > > > How hard is to rename all the C++ namespaces to most comprehensive and > consistent names with the project? Well, one fairly common pattern is sprinkled around of... namespace css = com::sun::star; namespace cssu = com::sun::star::uno; Sticking e.g. an additional namespace alias of namespace libreoffice = com::sun::star;, or something of that nature, in some header probably isn't the worst idea in the world. Though it does generate a lot of churn to go around changing anything, and the other language bindings, e.g. java and so on, wouldn't be affected, which i guess has the potential for some extra confusion. C. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: [Libreoffice] Proposing a new Easy Hack - project consistent namespaces
Hi, Before i forget... If you think this is not a so bad idea, just let me know. Would be a pleasure to prepare the files for you. :-) I need just a map with the new names and a file name (#include "changingName.hpp"). Best regards, Júlio. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
