[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEEDINFO|RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |DUPLICATE

--- Comment #17 from Heiko Tietze  ---


*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 87787 ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEEDINFO
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #16 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Buovjaga from comment #15)
> UX: isn't this included in the idea of bug 87787?

Haven't read every comment, but here is a link to the help:
https://help.libreoffice.org/Calc/User_Defined_Borders_in_Cells (it's similar
in Excel but you cannot active this "indetermined" state)

Closing the ticket as duplicate of bug 87787 makes sense to me but is better
done by Kevin. I suggest to add a short summary from this thread there.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

Buovjaga  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval
 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org,
   ||todven...@suomi24.fi

--- Comment #15 from Buovjaga  ---
UX: isn't this included in the idea of bug 87787?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

--- Comment #14 from Kevin  ---
None of the other people assessing this report have spent two months, 8 hours a
day, seven days a week, USING Calc to work on a spreadsheet that relies
intensely on borders, backgrounds and font changes to present its data. I have
- I am - you are not - by the time you read this I will have hit all of the
problems I've reported at least 100 more times. I'm not arguing about the
theory of the interface. I'm USING the interface. And it ... is ... broken.
Before I spent 8 hours a day with Calc, I spent 8 hours a day doing exactly the
same procedures with Excel. I'm living this nightmare.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

--- Comment #13 from Kevin  ---
(In reply to Jacques Guilleron from comment #12)

1. If C5 has a right border and C6 has no borders, there is often no way to
remove the border while in Format Cells for C6.

2. The Remove Border checkbox often appears when checking it will do nothing

3. The Remove Border checkbox often fails to appear when the user wants to use
it to remove the border of an adjacent cell

4. The grey line often appears in situations where it makes no difference when
you leave it or remove it and you still have to click through the grey line
state to get to the desired state even though there's no reason to make the
user do so.

Bottom Line: The UI for borders is embarrassing, wrong, buggy, hostile, and is
ruining the reputation of Calc and Document Foundation. You're make people hate
you just like Excel makes us hate Microsoft. The whole point of this project is
to answer the public outcry against the flaws of the Excel interface. Borders
is a case where Document Foundation is making it worse - MUCH MUCH worse!

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

--- Comment #12 from Jacques Guilleron  ---
In the previous comment, Please read : 
"Gray lines mean those lines will not be modified."
Thank you,

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

Jacques Guilleron  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||guillero...@aol.com

--- Comment #11 from Jacques Guilleron  ---
Hi Kevin,

In attachment 133794, 108276 and 108255.ods, try:
Select C5:C6, right click, next Format Cells, 2 clicks on central line to
delete it.

Gray lines mean those lines were not modify.
See: https://help.libreoffice.org/Calc/User_Defined_Borders_in_Cells

Jacques

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

--- Comment #10 from Kevin  ---
I have a new understanding of this bug. The problem is that when you are in one
cell, Calc is blind to the attributes of the adjacent cell. This explains the
two major symptoms:

1. Calc fails to activate the Remove Border checkbox when there is indeed a
border available to be removed, forcing the user to enter the other cell. Calc
can't put up the Remove Borders checkbox unless there is ALSO a pre-existing
border in the selected cell. Adding a border while in the dialog box does not
accomplish this.

2. Calc fails to grey out the Remove Border checkbox when there is no border
available to be removed, causing extra clicks and extreme frustration.

SOLUTION 1 (best): Make it work like Excel - each border is a discrete object,
not parented by any cell, but accessible from any cell on which it borders.

SOLUTION 2 (if you insist that there is some value to giving each cell its own
discrete set of borders): Give Calc the intelligence to examine the adjacent
cells and activate the Remove Border checkbox only if there's a border to be
removed.

A whole college course in UI Design could be dedicated to the Format Cells
design of Calc, and another course could be dedicated to the different, but
even more appallingly embarrassing design failures of Excel. Surely there is
someone at the Document Foundation with the vision and perseverance to fix this
mess once and for all.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

--- Comment #9 from Kevin  ---
Created attachment 133794
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133794=edit
further evidence

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

--- Comment #8 from Kevin  ---
Created attachment 133768
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133768=edit
another rebuttal

This one is zoomed all the way in. Look carefully - there's a vertical black
selection line running dead-center between B2 and C3. If there were any point
to having B2's right border and C3's left border be discrete objects, the area
to the left of black central selection line would be red and you'd see a border
that's half red and half blue - that would at least let you do something Excel
can't do - although I'm not sure why you'd want to do that and I'd much rather
have the ease of controlling a single border. But you can't do that! The red
border is there, as a ghost, invisible, but waiting to cause trouble.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

--- Comment #7 from Kevin  ---
Created attachment 133767
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133767=edit
rebuttal using two-borders spreadsheet

This is a screenshot zooming in on your 1008255-two borders.ods file.

Yes, C2 has a right red border, but you can't see it! What's the functionality
of that? All it does is cause trouble and extra work. If you paste the cell
elsewhere to try to save time by copying its internal formatting, the red
border pops up out of nowhere, always unwanted. You've added a "feature" that
has no function, that violates the learning curve almost all of your users have
traversed with Excel, and that causes many extra clicks at best and utter
confusion at worst.

C2 should be an object; C3 should be an object; and the vertical border between
them should be a single object, not two objects with different parents, only
one of which can be viewed.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

--- Comment #6 from Kevin  ---
Every time you click a cell with an unwanted border that Calc has forced to
have a parent cell (as opposed to Excel, which allows the border to simply
exist and be accessed from any adjacent cell) ... every time you do this, you
have to click FOUR TIMES:

1. once to make the border grey
2. once to make the border go away
3. once on Remove Border, just in case there's another temporarily invisible
border parented by the adjacent cell
4. once to OK the dialog

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

--- Comment #5 from Kevin  ---
Even if I'm missing some functionality that this provides, it's a terrible
price to pay for the elegant solution of having a single border that can be
controlled from either cell that uses it. If nothing else, there should be a
Options checkbox for "allow/disallow" double borders.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

--- Comment #4 from Kevin  ---
Okay - so are you saying that this adds functionality beyond Excel in that you
can have two borders of different thickness or color between two adjacent
cells? It's true that Excel allows only one border between cells, but let's try
this "feature not a bug" and see what it can do:

Give C2 a thicker red right border, leaving the thinner white left border in D2
- the D2 border is invisible. In no cases can you actually see two borders, so
where's the functionality that you seem to be saying justifies the crippling
effects on the user who simply wants to quickly and intuitively add or remove
borders?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

--- Comment #3 from Kevin  ---

> The checkbox is not for the cell itself, but for the adjacent cell; as its
> label says. In Calc borders always collapse. That means, if B2 has a right
> border and C2 has a left border, only one is shown. In case that the border
> of C2 is thicker than the border of B2, the border of C2 is shown.
> 
> When you now remove this border without checking "Remove Borders", the
> border from the cell B2 is still there and is visible now. If the option is
> checked, both borders are removed.

If you follow the steps in the spreadsheet, you'll see how broken this all is.

To review: 

1. C2 has no border; D2 has a left border
2. If you click twice to remove D2's left border (why does it first cycle
through a deceptive and apparently meaningless grey border designation?), the
Remove Border checkbox becomes active! (Why does it become active if there's no
such border to remove?)
3. If you try to do this from Cell C2, where the Remove Border checkbox would
actually be useful, there's no way to make it active so it can be used to
remove the unwanted border from the adjacent D2.

THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION: Why did you implement it differently from Excel?
There's nothing to gain except confusion, frustration and extra clicks.

4. Try adding a red right border to C2 - you can't even see it unless you
remove the white border from D2. So you're saying that the point of having the
Remove Border checkbox is to allow you to remove a currently invisible border
that you just happen to remember was there underneath the one you see?

This, combined with the "red-green-blue" problem where selected text is
automatically changed because of parameters of unselected text, makes the
program incredibly painful to use.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

Regina Henschel  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||rb.hensc...@t-online.de

--- Comment #2 from Regina Henschel  ---
Created attachment 133762
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133762=edit
two borders from adjacent cells

The checkbox is not for the cell itself, but for the adjacent cell; as its
label says. In Calc borders always collapse. That means, if B2 has a right
border and C2 has a left border, only one is shown. In case that the border of
C2 is thicker than the border of B2, the border of C2 is shown.

When you now remove this border without checking "Remove Borders", the border
from the cell B2 is still there and is visible now. If the option is checked,
both borders are removed.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108255] "Remove Border" checkbox adds confusion, but no functionality

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108255

--- Comment #1 from Kevin  ---
Created attachment 133736
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133736=edit
steps and demo included within spreadsheet

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