[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #40 from Adalbert Hanßen --- (In reply to ajlittoz from comment #39) > ... > If you're really in the same context as question 25429, you probably have > (or had) list item paragraphs using list styles. Take a look at the list > styles (NOT paragraph styles applied to the items). See which character > style is configured in Customize tab. Either select level 1-10 (the style in > the drop-down menu is blank if levels are individually styled) or process > each level to reset the style to factory "Numbering Symbols". You can then > delete the offending Character_20_style (or any other spurious style). I think I am in the context of 25429. My document probably had contact with Microsoft Word files (either by an ancestor stemming from it which I had emptied to maintain a previous collection of styles which I frequently use or it had contact by copy/paste insertions of paragraphs from *.doc or *.docx files. If I look at the Styles sidebar and activate List Styles (the fifth one from left), it shows an empty work area when "Applied Styles" is selected. There were some Custom Styles with names starting with "www" which I have never actively made. Since they were not applied I could delete them all. After I had done this, I deleted Character_20_style, stored my document and quit LO Writer. Then I started it again and looked, if the offending Character_20_style re-appeared: It didn't. I'll keep an open eye if it mysteriously re-appears in the near future. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #39 from ajlittoz --- (In reply to Adalbert Hanßen from comment #38) > I just came back to this issue and searching if it has been treated > elsewhere, I came across a post from ajlittoz from May 2017 (!) dealing with > such "zombie fonts" and how to remove them: > https://ask.libreoffice.org/t/writer-how-to-get-rid-of-character-20-style/ > 25429. The faulty behaviour described in question 25429 is not related to the present request to reset character style on paragraph break. It is a matter of corruption of the style dictionary. Of course, it would be nice if some developer could find the cause of it and fix it. However, this corruption happens rather rarely and is therefore very difficult to characterise. This is needed for a fix. > In the current development Version: > > 7.6.0.alpha1+ (X86_64) / LibreOffice Community > Build ID: 70fd835b4cf75e386ee115c705241a4059fb68a8 > CPU threads: 4; OS: Linux 5.4; UI render: default; VCL: gtk3 > Locale: de-DE (de_DE.UTF-8); UI: en-US > Calc: threaded > > I still encounter this bug: Now the zombie format character format is called > Character_20_Style. It is listed among the used character formats, but after > a search with AltSearch_1.4.2.oxt on [:::CharStyleName=Character_20_style::] > I can't find a single occurrence in my (huge) document! If you're really in the same context as question 25429, you probably have (or had) list item paragraphs using list styles. Take a look at the list styles (NOT paragraph styles applied to the items). See which character style is configured in Customize tab. Either select level 1-10 (the style in the drop-down menu is blank if levels are individually styled) or process each level to reset the style to factory "Numbering Symbols". You can then delete the offending Character_20_style (or any other spurious style). -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #38 from Adalbert Hanßen --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #32) > (In reply to Adalbert Hanßen from comment #30) > > Unfortunately the documentation neither tells about the formatting behavior > > when a new paragraph or line is begun ... > > Adding ajlittoz to CC, whom I consider to be a really professional styles > user: do you have any input on this? I just came back to this issue and searching if it has been treated elsewhere, I came across a post from ajlittoz from May 2017 (!) dealing with such "zombie fonts" and how to remove them: https://ask.libreoffice.org/t/writer-how-to-get-rid-of-character-20-style/25429. He gives some other examples, He makes plausible assumptions about the observed behavior and what causes this bug. Of course, something like this can only be checked and, if necessary, really fixed, if someone analyzes the code at that point (and for that you have to find it in the first place!). In the current development Version: 7.6.0.alpha1+ (X86_64) / LibreOffice Community Build ID: 70fd835b4cf75e386ee115c705241a4059fb68a8 CPU threads: 4; OS: Linux 5.4; UI render: default; VCL: gtk3 Locale: de-DE (de_DE.UTF-8); UI: en-US Calc: threaded I still encounter this bug: Now the zombie format character format is called Character_20_Style. It is listed among the used character formats, but after a search with AltSearch_1.4.2.oxt on [:::CharStyleName=Character_20_style::] I can't find a single occurrence in my (huge) document! I want to point to this other reference from ajlittoz. Maybe someone will take care of this bug and possibly encounter some more unclean programming around the place causing this mess (once it is spotted). -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #37 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Dieter from comment #35) > Heiko, do you agree with Mike? See comment 28; we could also keep the ticket open for reference -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #36 from Adalbert Hanßen --- (In reply to ajlittoz from comment #34) > ... > > Also, when I split a paragraph, I expect *all* layers to keep their present > settings. I agree *if there are characters right to the split point*. When sketching some document, I start with headings only. In order to add on, I enter a space before the paragraph mark and split before that space, then a headline of the same level is created (otherwise it would continue with TextBody, the default after any heading in my default stylesheet). I remove the space immediately when actually writing the next heading. If I wnat to change levels, I look up at the display of the headline-level and press as needed. The general rule seems to be: Continue formatting in the same way as *to the left of the insertion point*. This rule is broken by . normal*bold* in a line, adding xyz after normal continue normal. It yields normalxyz*bold* However: pressing and continue writing xyz yields normal *xyzbold* Try it! > > ... A paragraph can be associated with a list style. There are two > schools for this: the style one where the list style is declared in > the PS, making the PS dedicated to list item, and the DF one where > a toolbar button is pressed to turn the paragraph into a list item. > When Enter is pressed, most users expect the "list attribute" to > remain active so that the next item is entered without any other manual > operation. agreed for the next line becoming a list item. You can easily terminate the list property by pressing twice. You can easily prevent a number or bullet by pressing after . Getting rid of formatting can be more difficult since it can stem from DF or CS. >... > PS: (see end of comment 33) the present formatting state is reflected in the > toolbar buttons. Of course, this doesn't tell which layer activated it (PS, > CS, DF). But colouring the button might be impossible because of the > "themes". Status colouring would override theme colouring (or conflict with > it) agreed: Then we need other means to see it a glance. Two years ago, Heiko Tietze made a nice proposal: https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2019/11/05/proposal-to-conveniently-highlight-and-inspect-styles-in-libreoffice-writer/ -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #35 from Dieter --- I seems to me, that we start a discussion here and we loose focus. Heiko made a suggestion in comment 23 and changed status to NEW. Mike has cerncerns and is against that proposal. Heiko, do you agree with Mike? What informations are needed to make a final decision (NEW or WF or improve documentation?). We can discuss a lot and write long comments, but at least for me this is at a certain point a waste of time. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #34 from ajlittoz --- I think this is primarily a psychological problem. New users have a real difficulty to switch from a past (successful) routine to a new workflow. They don't even read the basics about the application they want to try. And this carries over when they use it regularly. Adalbert Hanßen has nevertheless quoted the most relevant argument in comment 22: >in the manual it says “using styles means that you shift the emphasis from >what the text >(or page, or other element) looks like, to what the text is” but failed the implication. He still thinks about appearance, not about significance which is the ultimate goal of style markup: add semantic value to runs of character. In Writer, the three main formatting layers are independent from each other except for the precedence rule when it comes to display the final result. The markup has boundaries in each layer. After all document encoding is XML and boundaries … are "natural". And XML never constrained the markup to be "strictly nested". This fact allows the independence of each layer. In the paragraph layer, the boundaries are at paragraph marks. By default, the same PS is applied when you press Enter or you switch to the configured Next_Style. Otherwise you must assign manually a new style. In the character layer, there are no implicit boundaries. You enabled some CS and you disable it manually. IMHO, this is a good thing. When I type a series of contiguous semantically-related paragraphs, I expect all my significance markup (PS+CS) to be kept when I start a new paragraph. As an example, imagine the following scenario: - my main topic is Text_Body - I want to add a few caveats about my main topic but this is not different enough to deserve another PS. I then assign Strong_Emphasis at the start of the caveats paragraphs and type them - when I return to my standard main topic, I just disable Strong_Emphasis (applying No_Character_Style) Also, when I split a paragraph, I expect *all* layers to keep their present settings. Since this is a split, it would not make any sense to reset CS (and DF) even if I add a word at start of new paragraph. I want to remain in control of what I typed because semantic markup is author's responsibility and Writer can by no means guess what is in my head. There is also a point that Adalbert missed. A paragraph can be associated with a list style. There are two schools for this: the style one where the list style is declared in the PS, making the PS dedicated to list item, and the DF one where a toolbar button is pressed to turn the paragraph into a list item. When Enter is pressed, most users expect the "list attribute" to remain active so that the next item is entered without any other manual operation. If CS+DF should be reset at end of paragraph, I imagine most users will then complain that this behaviour is not "intuitive" at all. As a conclusion, if the request to reset CS+DF at end of paragraph is submitted to vote, my opinion is "against". PS: (see end of comment 33) the present formatting state is reflected in the toolbar buttons. Of course, this doesn't tell which layer activated it (PS, CS, DF). But colouring the button might be impossible because of the "themes". Status colouring would override theme colouring (or conflict with it) and I already anticipate complaints on AskLO by users trying to understand why some buttons become suddenly unreadable. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #33 from Adalbert Hanßen --- How can you actually tell for sure and at a glance what actually made an effective formatting: PS, CS or DF? First you have to remove DF and observe, what happens. Then you have to use the Styles inspector and set it to Character Styles, in order to see, if there is any CS other than "No Character Style". If there is one, you even have to enter its modify dialogue to see, how it is defined or reset the CS to No CS and see, what happens. Once you have excluded this, you can rely on the PS being effective at the current editing position. Unfortunately many users have no idea about styles. If they ever try styles, they easily give up because it appears to be very complicated. See my question and my answer above! The basic idea using styles is to use direct formatting as little as possible. Then of course, switching off DF and CS at a form feed and possibly also after a forced linefeed looks natural, especially because switching off both CS and DF requires more than one step. If the tool buttons for bold, italic, underline, ... , color would appear different depending on how the current editing position is effectively formatted: by PS, CS or by DF, *and* if there were a button "get rid of all special formatting" (i.e. drop CS and DF) my argument would weigh much less. Are there such a featurea? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #32 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Adalbert Hanßen from comment #30) > Unfortunately the documentation neither tells about the formatting behavior > when a new paragraph or line is begun This is actually a program-defined behavior, and is decided based on UX considerations. Given that there's no duplicates to this thus far, I doubt that the proposed change is really demanded by many (and I do think so: unlike the common belief, people *do* file bugs/enhancements, and advanced features like TeX-like image positioning have several duplicates more than ten years old). > nor tells it anything about the precedence of formatting options. It is clearly defined in ODF standard, even if not in Help. It is not to be changed arbitrarily. > Advanced users who use style sheets should not be hindered and for them it > is probably more natural to end the previous DS and DF with a new PS, which > Heiko also agreed with. This needs proving; and I already mentioned that I don't see any demand of this so far except for this tdf#126546. The issues in See Also are absolutely different, even though having them in See Also is reasonable. Adding ajlittoz to CC, whom I consider to be a really professional styles user: do you have any input on this? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #31 from Dieter --- (In reply to Adalbert Hanßen from comment #30) > I doubt that many people really expect CS and DF to > continue after beginning a new paragraph. It looks more natural to me to > start from the default settings for a new paragraph. I disagree. I can't remember a bug reports who suggests to change the current situation. So do you have some empirical evidence for your statement? So I agree with Heiko. I'm convinced that a change would result in frustrated users. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #30 from Adalbert Hanßen --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #23) > To cut a long story short: paragraph breaks continue with the new PS but > keep the previous CS. Which makes sense within the paragraph but not > necessarily across. > > Mike, any concerns to switch off the CS after a paragraph break? Of course DF should also be dropped after a new paragraph is started. I have seen comments 24 and 25: I doubt that many people really expect CS and DF to continue after beginning a new paragraph. It looks more natural to me to start from the default settings for a new paragraph. Unfortunately the documentation neither tells about the formatting behavior when a new paragraph or line is begun nor tells it anything about the precedence of formatting options. Changing this merely fixes an undocumented feature. I also proposed to close this gap in the documentation. Because humans are creatures of habit and people with little knowledge some times even more considering a program reaction, which they have experienced once, as the only reasonable one and don't think about alternatives, I had already suggested to let behavior depend on a basic setting in LibreOffice. In this context, one could still think about whether to set the default value for that as I suggested, i.e. forget CS and DF, or whether to give preference to the continuity of operation, i.e. keep them both (=present behavior). The latter can certainly be argued for, although I don't: Advanced users who use style sheets should not be hindered and for them it is probably more natural to end the previous DS and DF with a new PS, which Heiko also agreed with. That this question came up at all and did so many rounds shows, after all, how confusing LO's current behavior is at this point. How can you actually tell for sure and at a glance what the effective formatting has done: PS, CS or DF? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #29 from Adalbert Hanßen --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #23) > To cut a long story short: paragraph breaks continue with the new PS but > keep the previous CS. Which makes sense within the paragraph but not > necessarily across. > > Mike, any concerns to switch off the CS after a paragraph break? Of course DF should also be dropped after a new paragraph is started. I have seen comments 24 and 25: I doubt that many people really expect CS and DF to continue after beginning a new paragraph. It looks more natural to me to start from the default settings for a new paragraph. Unfortunately the documentation neither tells about the formatting behavior when a new paragraph or line is begun nor tells it anything about the precedence of formatting options. Changing this merely fixes an undocumented feature. I also proposed to close this gap in the documentation. Because humans are creatures of habit and people with little knowledge some times even more considering a program reaction, which they have experienced once, as the only reasonable one and don't think about alternatives, I had already suggested to let behavior depend on a basic setting in LibreOffice. In this context, one could still think about whether to set the default value for that as I suggested, i.e. forget CS and DF, or whether to give preference to the continuity of operation, i.e. keep them both (=present behavior). The latter can certainly be argued for, although I don't: Advanced users who use style sheets should not be hindered and for them it is probably more natural to end the previous DS and DF with a new PS, which Heiko also agreed with. That this question came up at all and did so many rounds shows, after all, how confusing LO's current behavior is at this point. How can you actually tell for sure and at a glance what the effective formatting has done: PS, CS or DF? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #28 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #27) > Let's say I'm a basic user. I open Writer, set up my font (TNR 14), and > start typing. After typing my first paragraph, I suddenly see that my font > became Liberation Serif 12 pt. Convincing example. So better WF/NAB but let's wait for other opinions. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #27 from Mike Kaganski --- Let's say I'm a basic user. I open Writer, set up my font (TNR 14), and start typing. After typing my first paragraph, I suddenly see that my font became Liberation Serif 12 pt. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #26 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #24) > First of all, comment 23 mentions CS, but not character DF. Is this > intentional? Nope, and you are right DF remains after breaks too. And my take it shouldn't likewise CS. We keep the currently enabled format until it's disabled for good reasons. Like you want to write some words in bold / strong emphasis. But what reason could exist to keep it for the next paragraph? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #25 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #24) > I would tell that dropping CS, but not character DF, is sane. Sorry, I meant to write that I **doubt** that dropping one, but not the other, is sane. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 --- Comment #24 from Mike Kaganski --- First of all, comment 23 mentions CS, but not character DF. Is this intentional? I would tell that dropping CS, but not character DF, is sane. That would bring inconsistencies to people using character styles, and sometimes direct formatting. And dropping character DF on the paragraph boundary would break the workflow of people who don't use styles. So generally - I'm against. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 126546] Reset character style on paragraph break (see comment 23)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126546 Dieter changed: What|Removed |Added Summary|Reset character style on|Reset character style on |paragraph break |paragraph break (see ||comment 23) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
