[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 V Stuart Foote changed: What|Removed |Added Status|RESOLVED|CLOSED -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 --- Comment #15 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Telesto from comment #14) > And the technical specifications don't describe you user should work with > it. Or what the idea behind it is. Only that it maybe written into the ODT > format. > ... > Yes, initial report was about something else. It's kind of a U-Turn based on > comment 0 and caption (looking at it from wrong perspective). Instead of > asking myself what's paragraph DF style for. It was why is the inspector > showing that; my mistake.. So please stop this. You had created an issue about "why SI shows this". It was explained; the *exact*, *specific*, *enough* answer was provided, and I repeat it here: because it is possible to have that data in the program, and *SI's goal is to provide you the details of what is there in the document model*. And even further: it is possible in program *at least* because the program's document model is based on ODF standard, which explicitly allows that. End of story; *this* issue is closed as NOTABUG, correctly, without any possibility for interpretations/arguments. No further commenting here is useful. Your usual "and now it's time for something else" is just not appropriate. If you think there's a *different* issue "let's drop support for properties A, B, C in DF on paragraph level", the correct way is to create a new issue dedicated to that; and when you get a clear reply there why it is invalid, just accept that (even if you personally disagree) and also not spam there, and so on. Each issue must be clear. And being stubborn does not help anyone. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 --- Comment #14 from Telesto --- I will ask it in ask.. but doubt it to be having an answer in the direction of interest. But well we see.. About wasting time. * I not forcing you to answer.. you pick your bugs yourself. OK, likely you are one of those with most experience in this field. So you might be inclined to answer * And yes, I'm currently not to much restricted in time. So simply dropping it because of time restrictions (no) and yes stubborn; even when I have the feeling being kept on the line. A large group would simply drop it. Having enough of it. Why wasting time on this. I don't gain much by it. I don't use LibreOffice commercially. The way I'm using LibreOffice surely not exceptional or regular which would justify me to spend so much time on it. Why bother, could go for MSO or other editor too. * And obviously it costs me time too. I could have done something else. So that effect surely mutual. But must admit, I don't dislike writing/arguing. The only thing is got some kind of hobby for looking for bugs/enhancements. And I hope others will benefit from it in some way. (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #13) > (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #12) > > Ouch, that was a little too harsh Mike > > Indeed. If only Telesto could accept that when they do not understand an > answer, that means a need to learn something, not keep insisting on own PoV > along with stating own right to keep ignorant. It's OK when casual user gets > confused with how to use bug tracker, and also how to interact when the > problem is discussed; but when a #1 bug filer keeps showing the same > inappropriate attitude, it's ... inappropriate. > Please make a distinction between convinced I'm right <-> keep asking over and over. I'm lacking information; this topic is going all directions except giving an answer. It keeps dragging on for ever.. And the technical specifications don't describe you user should work with it. Or what the idea behind it is. Only that it maybe written into the ODT format. Currently no hierarchical page styles are allowed because ODT format doesn't handle the topic right now. This doesn't proof those hierarchical styles not wanted/needed. It only means that the ODT format in current doesn't allow those to be present. I read pointer to a ODT specifications (sec) in the same way. Without additions supporting argument this doesn't say anything to me. And the 'everything is a style' is kind of semantic battle. The dialog distinct between 'Direct Formatting' at paragraph level and Character level (Style Inspector). And has also Character Styles and Paragraph Styles dialog. So I use that terminology. If the Development department needs more precise wordings (instead of the GUI simplification) please translate it/read through my wording. To get the topic. Visa versa. Answering must be done preferably in the same n00b language. Throwing in who different paradigm is source for confusion. Side step: if M. Stahl did explain the correct anchoring behavior to me, on terms of flys. This was likely very correct, but impossible for me to grasp. As I'm not used to look at document from 'flys' conceptualization. And not seen may bug reporters report their stuff in 'flys' terminology. QA/UX members in general lack the knowledge of the depths of the underlying technical technical aspects (as far I aware off). Yes I keep going about Paragraph DF formatting. As I don't see how the workflow should be (from user perspective). As managing 'Paragraph DF" kind of hard. As it being set 'at start of a paragraph'. You can't see it or smell it. And ask myself why is this - practically - needed next to Character DF. Also my prior conception was that there was only Character DF and not Paragraph DF (until Style Inspector came along). Yes, initial report was about something else. It's kind of a U-Turn based on comment 0 and caption (looking at it from wrong perspective). Instead of asking myself what's paragraph DF style for. It was why is the inspector showing that; my mistake.. > (In reply to Telesto from comment #10) > > 16.30.2 appears to > > be about 'Paragraph Styles (styles!). And text style referencing to > > "character style" (I guess) > > > > I'm talking about the relevance of "Paragraph *Direct Formatting*" next to > > "Character *Direct Formatting* ". I'm not talking about "paragraph styles". > > See 3.15.3 : > http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/OpenDocument/v1.3/OpenDocument-v1.3-part3- > schema.html#element-office_automatic-styles for another technical > description why description of styles is relevant to DF. Still not answering the practical need for Direct formatting at PS level, IMHO -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 --- Comment #13 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #12) > Ouch, that was a little too harsh Mike Indeed. If only Telesto could accept that when they do not understand an answer, that means a need to learn something, not keep insisting on own PoV along with stating own right to keep ignorant. It's OK when casual user gets confused with how to use bug tracker, and also how to interact when the problem is discussed; but when a #1 bug filer keeps showing the same inappropriate attitude, it's ... inappropriate. (In reply to Telesto from comment #10) > 16.30.2 appears to > be about 'Paragraph Styles (styles!). And text style referencing to > "character style" (I guess) > > I'm talking about the relevance of "Paragraph *Direct Formatting*" next to > "Character *Direct Formatting* ". I'm not talking about "paragraph styles". See 3.15.3 : http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/OpenDocument/v1.3/OpenDocument-v1.3-part3-schema.html#element-office_automatic-styles for another technical description why description of styles is relevant to DF. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 --- Comment #12 from V Stuart Foote --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #11) Ouch, that was a little too harsh Mike, but yes I would agree that some of Telesto's musings are not as well structured or researched as they should be. But he really does poke at some of the frayed edges of the UI--we have a spot for him here if he could perhaps edit his submissions. Stuart -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 --- Comment #11 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Telesto from comment #10) > Ask LibreOffice is about user questions.. This ends up in the area of > technical questions. At ask people assume things to be this way. Or ask what > the practical issue is Or give quick fixes (workarounds). > > So it's misplaced at ask (if you ask me). No I do not ask you. Ask is for user questions; and this is a user question. Especially since it focuses on "usefulness", which is a topic exactly fit for Ask. And no, this is not technical question, since strictly correct and technical answer about *why* is it so is not good for you. > FWIW: Enhancement request are no bugs either, if we want be nitpicking. So > don't belong here. Would belong to UX enhancement request tracker or > whatever. Yet another unsolicited off-topic from you. Bugzilla is for what TDF intends it, not for what you imagine it is for. It is *the* place for enhancements. Period. > I'm surely not good at reading technical documentation. You surely are not. What you're good at is wasting everyone's time. > 16.30.2 appears to > be about 'Paragraph Styles (styles!). And text style referencing to > "character style" (I guess) Yes. Styles, as defined by ODF, and in ODF, *every* bit of formatting is implemented using styles, DF being defined also by special kind of styles - automatic styles. So everything described in 16.30.2 applies to DF. > The advantage of the (presence of) Paragraph Direct Formatting next to > Character Direct Formatting being unclear to me. This is definitely off-topic here. As said, "what is it useful for" is for Ask, whatever you might think. > > Direct Formatting should not be be distributed around easily. It should be > reduced to a minimum (without breaking user experience using DF) to make > working with style a success, IMHO. > And distinctions between Paragraph Direct Formatting/ Character Direct > Formatting kind of subtle (without being visible; making managing even > harder. You easy distributing DF all over the document without knowing. > Ruining the user experience of using (paragraph) styles. You need to > manually scrub all DF. Polluting the XML files with unnecessary (additional) > DF junk. More unrelated stuff. Not surprising. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 --- Comment #10 from Telesto --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #9) > (In reply to Telesto from comment #7) > > But is indeed not the 'fault' of the style inspector. It's only making some > > of internal clear.. I didn't even realized existed.. > > > > But core is indeed not about the style inspector > > Heh, so it looks like the reopening was just because you misuse Bugzilla to > be your place to ask "what-is-it and how-to-use" questions? Indeed, this > confirms this: > > (In reply to Telesto from comment #5) > > More intended as an inquiry.. of naïve asking what the idea behind the > > concept is.. Not to get comment 0 through. > > > > That I report it as a 'bug' doesn't necessary mean it's bug. Except I tend > > to perceive it as bug 'initially; . > > We have Ask LibreOffice for questions. Please use the right tool. Ask LibreOffice is about user questions.. This ends up in the area of technical questions. At ask people assume things to be this way. Or ask what the practical issue is Or give quick fixes (workarounds). So it's misplaced at ask (if you ask me). You could argue it's misplaced here too as it start with more or less technical inquiry. I unintentionally saw it a issue fixating on Style Inspector, which was wrong (as Baron pointed out) So this in my opinion not a true ask question. More a possible 'bug'/ enhancement. FWIW: Enhancement request are no bugs either, if we want be nitpicking. So don't belong here. Would belong to UX enhancement request tracker or whatever. The inquiry based on: "So someone who does not understand the difference, and actually has no actual problem with it, tries to "simplify" things they don't understand?" It's surely possible I don't understand. Happily to admit. Except, the way you tend to present it, makes it look like rather obvious, while refrain from explaining it (in my perception). > See "16.30.2 Paragraph Styles" in ODF [1]: > > > In addition to paragraph properties, paragraph styles may define text > > properties. These are applied to the character content of the paragraph > > unless they are overwritten by a text style that is specified by any of > > the descendant elements of the paragraph element. > > [1] > http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/OpenDocument/v1.3/OpenDocument-v1.3-part3- > schema.html#__RefHeading__1416408_253892949 I'm surely not good at reading technical documentation. 16.30.2 appears to be about 'Paragraph Styles (styles!). And text style referencing to "character style" (I guess) I'm talking about the relevance of "Paragraph *Direct Formatting*" next to "Character *Direct Formatting* ". I'm not talking about "paragraph styles". And even if the documentation opens the possibility still doesn't explain the need of usefulness, IMHO The advantage of the (presence of) Paragraph Direct Formatting next to Character Direct Formatting being unclear to me. Direct Formatting should not be be distributed around easily. It should be reduced to a minimum (without breaking user experience using DF) to make working with style a success, IMHO. And distinctions between Paragraph Direct Formatting/ Character Direct Formatting kind of subtle (without being visible; making managing even harder. You easy distributing DF all over the document without knowing. Ruining the user experience of using (paragraph) styles. You need to manually scrub all DF. Polluting the XML files with unnecessary (additional) DF junk. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 Mike Kaganski changed: What|Removed |Added Resolution|--- |NOTABUG Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED --- Comment #9 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Telesto from comment #7) > But is indeed not the 'fault' of the style inspector. It's only making some > of internal clear.. I didn't even realized existed.. > > But core is indeed not about the style inspector Heh, so it looks like the reopening was just because you misuse Bugzilla to be your place to ask "what-is-it and how-to-use" questions? Indeed, this confirms this: (In reply to Telesto from comment #5) > More intended as an inquiry.. of naïve asking what the idea behind the > concept is.. Not to get comment 0 through. > > That I report it as a 'bug' doesn't necessary mean it's bug. Except I tend > to perceive it as bug 'initially; . We have Ask LibreOffice for questions. Please use the right tool. See "16.30.2 Paragraph Styles" in ODF [1]: > In addition to paragraph properties, paragraph styles may define text > properties. These are applied to the character content of the paragraph > unless they are overwritten by a text style that is specified by any of > the descendant elements of the paragraph element. [1] http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/OpenDocument/v1.3/OpenDocument-v1.3-part3-schema.html#__RefHeading__1416408_253892949 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 --- Comment #8 from Telesto --- (In reply to Aron Budea from comment #6) > This situation reminds me of changing a piece of text eg. to bold, then > changing back to regular. You won't see a difference, but it'll still have > direct formatting, regular, you have to clear the formatting for the text to > become unformatted. Bug 135871 being one of those (and Bug 135871 comment 22 listing even more) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 --- Comment #7 from Telesto --- (In reply to Aron Budea from comment #6) > (In reply to Telesto from comment #5) > > And having to types of direct formatting is really hard get a grip on. As > > kind of invisible.. Yes, with style inspector it's visible.. but now I have > > having trouble avoiding certain effects. > This situation reminds me of changing a piece of text eg. to bold, then > changing back to regular. You won't see a difference, but it'll still have > direct formatting, regular, you have to clear the formatting for the text to > become unformatted. > Also, this whole discussion is completely unrelated to the Styles Inspector, > which just shows what exists in the document. You're right Aron.. I was kind of focused on Style Inspector, because being surprised by seeing Direct Formatting at Paragraph level.. Whereas I assumed this to be only happening at Character Level. And in a follow up found it pretty confusing having multiple DF settings set. Which not even 'match' reality. So you can have a paragraph with DF saying font X. Where its overwritten by DF Character Style for the full paragraph. But is indeed not the 'fault' of the style inspector. It's only making some of internal clear.. I didn't even realized existed.. But core is indeed not about the style inspector -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 --- Comment #6 from Aron Budea --- (In reply to Telesto from comment #5) > And having to types of direct formatting is really hard get a grip on. As > kind of invisible.. Yes, with style inspector it's visible.. but now I have > having trouble avoiding certain effects. This situation reminds me of changing a piece of text eg. to bold, then changing back to regular. You won't see a difference, but it'll still have direct formatting, regular, you have to clear the formatting for the text to become unformatted. Also, this whole discussion is completely unrelated to the Styles Inspector, which just shows what exists in the document. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 --- Comment #5 from Telesto --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #4) > (In reply to Telesto from comment #0) > > The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector > > seems a kind of pointless > > (In reply to Telesto from comment #3) > > And explain to me what I should make off it.. > > I'm sorry, is this a kind of "I don't understand what it is, so let's break > it" kind of request? So someone who does not understand the difference, and > actually has no actual problem with it, tries to "simplify" things they > don't understand? More intended as an inquiry.. of naïve asking what the idea behind the concept is.. Not to get comment 0 through. That I report it as a 'bug' doesn't necessary mean it's bug. Except I tend to perceive it as bug 'initially; . I don't not really get that it's possible to 'set a DF at paragraph level', which is overridden by Character DF formatting.. for the full paragraph depend how the formatting being changed.. So changing the font at the start is assumed to be DF paragraph style, but maybe it intended only to have say a Different type of font for the first letter? Or fist word.. And PS direct formatting obviously causes a lot of DF being present.. While styles a propagated. So maybe you only want to change DF at character level, and you get 'DF at paragraph level' And having to types of direct formatting is really hard get a grip on. As kind of invisible.. Yes, with style inspector it's visible.. but now I have having trouble avoiding certain effects. As hard as switching font from to something else, back to default doesn't mean.. back in line with 'style', but DF formatting font set. Which also hard to revert. [I my position is that shouldn't happen ideally in the first place] But maybe I change position what the idea behind Paragraph DF is. As it's not clear to me what purpose/advantage is next to DF at character level.. This might be 'sane' approach or having an advantage.. I can place it currently. Why this is needed/wanted. In relation to Character DF and in relation to using PS Styles. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 --- Comment #4 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Telesto from comment #0) > The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector > seems a kind of pointless (In reply to Telesto from comment #3) > And explain to me what I should make off it.. I'm sorry, is this a kind of "I don't understand what it is, so let's break it" kind of request? So someone who does not understand the difference, and actually has no actual problem with it, tries to "simplify" things they don't understand? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 Telesto changed: What|Removed |Added Status|RESOLVED|UNCONFIRMED Resolution|NOTABUG |--- --- Comment #3 from Telesto --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #1) > Absolutely not. Character properties are not set via direct paragraph > settings. Actually I don't see any overlapping. But if you merge the sources > how should a user learn where the attribute comes from? Please see screencast.. And explain to me what I should make off it.. Not sure how I get back to 'paragraph direct formatting' following comment 0 Setting to UNCONFORMED in for answer for now.. Could also set it NEEDINFO, but would be the opposite of what NEEDINFO means in normal cases. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 --- Comment #2 from Telesto --- Created attachment 168838 --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=168838&action=edit Screencast Still not totally clear what the meaning is of Paragraph Direct Formatting -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED Resolution|--- |NOTABUG Blocks||134554 --- Comment #1 from Heiko Tietze --- Absolutely not. Character properties are not set via direct paragraph settings. Actually I don't see any overlapping. But if you merge the sources how should a user learn where the attribute comes from? Referenced Bugs: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134554 [Bug 134554] [META] Styles Inspector -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 139338] The distinction paragraph <-> Character direct formatting in style inspector seems a kind of pointless
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=139338 Telesto changed: What|Removed |Added CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists ||.freedesktop.org, ||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu Keywords||needsUXEval -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.___ Libreoffice-bugs mailing list Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs
