[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811

sophie  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||remc...@gmail.com

--- Comment #32 from sophie  ---
*** Bug 85209 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

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--- Comment #31 from Aleve Sicofante  ---
I reopened the bug because it isn't solved and it deserves a fix. I just
thought this was an open project where anyone could propose things without
being harassed or nullified. Silly me, it seems there's a rigid bureaucracy
in LibreOffice where only some privileged users dictate what happens to the
project and fiercely attack proposals from end users or consultants.

Enjoy working for yourselves guys. I'm moving all of my current and future
customers to WPS Office. At least there you aren't fiercely attacked for
suggesting reasonable features real end users can benefit from, but
software programmers can't even understand. Who would have thought an
office suite was created for software developers instead of office workers!


2014-08-08 17:06 GMT+02:00 :

>   *Comment # 30 
> on bug 79811  from QA
> Administrators  *
>
> @Aleve - do not open the bug again - you will be in violation of FDO policies
> and 
> procedures:https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Bugzilla/Policies_and_Procedures
>
> David Tardon has been with the project for a long time. He has responded and
> changed that status to WONTFIX. No matter how many times you reopen it - it
> won't be fixed.
>
> Again - do not open the bug again.
>
>  --
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

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--- Comment #30 from QA Administrators  ---
@Aleve - do not open the bug again - you will be in violation of FDO policies
and procedures:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Bugzilla/Policies_and_Procedures

David Tardon has been with the project for a long time. He has responded and
changed that status to WONTFIX. No matter how many times you reopen it - it
won't be fixed.

Again - do not open the bug again.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

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David Tardon  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |WONTFIX

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Aleve Sicofante  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|UNCONFIRMED
 Resolution|WONTFIX |---
 Ever confirmed|1   |0

--- Comment #29 from Aleve Sicofante  ---
OK. I'm leaving this vipers nest now. Will try to explain this suggestion to
people with higher responsibilities in LibreOffice or eventually migrate to an
application that respects their users and don't respond to suggestions with the
absurdly agressive hostility I've experienced here. Not exactly a challenge,
btw; it's unlikely ANY organization who cares about end users would treat
people with the attitued shown here by recognized members of the "community".
Shame on you.

Bye.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

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--- Comment #28 from V Stuart Foote  ---
@Aleve, *,
(In reply to comment #27)
>... I just asked a very simple question: are there UX
> designers working for LO or is it all just coders? I'd love to know who's
> in charge of UX and if there's any person responsible to discuss users
> needs who doesn't write a single line of code.
> 
> ...and I'd like to direct my questions to the right people. Again, no offense
> intended, but I don't think coders are the people who should handle users
> requests.

Well, there is the Design team's wiki if you'd like to try there...

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design

Stuart

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--- Comment #27 from Aleve Sicofante  ---
I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think it will be productive to keep
this discussion going on. I just asked a very simple question: are there UX
designers working for LO or is it all just coders? I'd love to know who's
in charge of UX and if there's any person responsible to discuss users
needs who doesn't write a single line of code.

I'm responsible for the needs of some 100 LO users (93 at this very moment
in four different companies, but the number tends to grow) and I'd like to
direct my questions to the right people. Again, no offense intended, but I
don't think coders are the people who should handle users requests.

I'll appreciate if anyone here can provide me with this information.

Thanks.

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--- Comment #26 from V Stuart Foote  ---
@David, dude stop feeding the trolls, just let it go as WONTFIX and move on!

Maybe all this energy could be better spent doing something with support of the
PDF ISO Standards...

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--- Comment #25 from David Tardon  ---
(In reply to comment #23)
> Just out of curiosity: are there actual designers and UX experts working on
> LO or is it just coders? This blindness to what's good for users (or lame
> "code it yourself" replies) can hardly come from professional UX desginers.

You seem to put an equality between "I want something" and "users need
something".

Just out of curiosity: Is derision and scorn your normal strategy when talking
to someone who does not agree with you?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

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--- Comment #24 from David Tardon  ---
(In reply to comment #23)
> Just out of curiosity: are there actual designers and UX experts working on
> LO or is it just coders? This blindness to what's good for users (or lame
> "code it yourself" replies) can hardly come from professional UX desginers.

Since you mentioned professional UX designers: Apple iWork applications can
only save to their native format. Every other supported format can only be
exported to; this includes the file format of their previous version. Even
opening of a file in a supported non-native format is treated like creation of
a new file--on saving, the user is prompted to pick a name and a file in a
native format is created. 

(Now I suppose you will tell me that Apple UX designers know nothing about
users' needs...)

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--- Comment #23 from Aleve Sicofante  ---
Just out of curiosity: are there actual designers and UX experts working on
LO or is it just coders? This blindness to what's good for users (or lame
"code it yourself" replies) can hardly come from professional UX desginers.

If there are indeed people in charge of this product and its users needs,
can someone be so kind to let me know their names?


2014-08-06 8:55 GMT+02:00 :

>  Jean-Baptiste Faure  changed bug 79811
> 
>  What Removed Added  Status NEW RESOLVED  Resolution --- WONTFIX  CC
> jbf.fa...@sud-ouest.org
>
>  *Comment # 22 
> on bug 79811  from
> Jean-Baptiste Faure  *
>
> I think we can close this bug report as WONTFIX. Please don't try to make PDF
> format an editable format, you will only confuse the user. Think that you 
> can't
> distinguish between PDF, PDF archive and PDF hybrid.
>
> About save vs. export: I think (I already made this proposition) that LO 
> should
> save / save_as in ODF only and export in all other formats, including OOXML.
>
> Best regards. JBF
>
>  --
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Jean-Baptiste Faure  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |WONTFIX
 CC||jbf.fa...@sud-ouest.org

--- Comment #22 from Jean-Baptiste Faure  ---
I think we can close this bug report as WONTFIX. Please don't try to make PDF
format an editable format, you will only confuse the user. Think that you can't
distinguish between PDF, PDF archive and PDF hybrid.

About save vs. export: I think (I already made this proposition) that LO should
save / save_as in ODF only and export in all other formats, including OOXML.

Best regards. JBF

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--- Comment #21 from Michael Meeks  ---
> The proposal is pretty simple and its implementation isn't "extremely
> problematic" whatsoever.

Looking forward to your patch =) The mental notes I have (at a minimum) would
be re-factoring the UI for PDF export, (eg. resolution of images etc.) so that
these become options of the hybrid PDF file, so when you re-save they are
re-applied, and when you want to change that you can [ just as a start ]. Then
of course, the performance problems, duplication of data in PDF and ODF
containers etc. etc. are all rather susceptible to some work. Perhaps a couple
of weeks of work for a determined beginner - happy to give some code pointers
if you want to get stuck in :-)

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--- Comment #20 from V Stuart Foote  ---
@Aleve, *,

If David T. chooses to respond or not is not relative to whether this suggested
UX enhancement merits developer effort. 

What is germane is that the PDF import filter cleanly handles conversion both
on opening and when exporting to PDF--it is not implemented as an ODF document
save-as format.

Also, there ARE standards for creation of PDF. As there are standards for ODF.
And that the Hybrid PDF implemented by Sun Microsystems in the PDF Import
Extension--now incorporated into LibreOffice core--is not a standard in any
sense. It is a kludge that is only marginally supported by the LibreOffice
suite and not by Apache OpenOffice at all. A check-box during export to PDF is
probably all the more support that should be provided, the "PDF/ODF Hybrid
File" is NOT an interoperability solution and should not be treated as such.

Regards PDF, frankly there are more substantive requirements in the correct
handling of PDF that the project must address as a priority far more pressing
than this novelty.

Such as the correct generation of tagged PDF, and of PDF/A archival formats, as
well as in implementing support for ISO 32000-1 for PDF 1.7. Or even addressing
the current total lack of support for ISO 14289-1 and PDF/UA. And to my mind
any of these standards as enhancements that would be worth developer cycles.

Of course you are welcome to attempt to code the transition from export check
box, to non-native save-as option yourself.  Not the first project I'd want to
tackle.

Stuart

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--- Comment #19 from Aleve Sicofante  ---
It's long only because someone decided to make a lot of noise about
nothing, which is sadly too frequent in FLOSS projects.

The proposal is pretty simple and its implementation isn't "extremely
problematic" whatsoever. Exporting or saving is just a decision regarding
the UI (usually, formats that the app itself can edit are put into "save"
and the rest are put into "export", although some projects have a somewhat
different approach, like GIMP for instance). All the work has been done on
the format itself, so it's just about placing an option in the save dialog
instead of -or in addition to- the export dialog.

(Now expect a new reply from the noise maker. Guaranteed...)

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Michael Meeks  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEEDINFO|NEW
 CC||michael.me...@collabora.com

--- Comment #18 from Michael Meeks  ---
Wow - what a long bug; from a product perspective - I think Aleve is right -
this would be a great feature. I agree its practically extremely problematic =)
no doubt about it; but I'd like to have this guy as a placeholder for this
feature I think we will need (eventually).

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--- Comment #17 from David Tardon  ---
(In reply to comment #14)
> "For example by giving it an extension .o.pdf or .odt.pdf , .ods.pdf etc.
> Without this, you can't easily tell what file you saved as a hybrid PDF and
> what as a PDF."
> 
> That would solve very easily the eventual problem of differentiating "pure
> PDF" files from Hybrid PDF files in a given folder.

Yes, but it is only a half of a solution. It only works in libreoffice (and
possibly only if the internal file dialog is used, which is mostly not--the use
of system file dialog is the default on all platforms. And it would need a
special handling, as we do not expect double extension anywhere, but that is a
solvable detail.)

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--- Comment #16 from David Tardon  ---
(In reply to comment #13)
> I'd like to add this article that supports my point:
> http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon-says/2012/03/the-magic-of-editable-
> pdfs/index.htm

It does not. All it says that, in case there is a need to edit a PDF, it is
good if it contains the original document. Nobody has been contesting that.

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--- Comment #15 from David Tardon  ---
(In reply to comment #12)
> I thought you were just trolling, but I've searched a little bit and you
> actually have some responsibility in the development of LibreOffice. That's
> sad, and also sadly reflects the much commented "arrogant attitude of FLOSS
> developers".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) : "In Internet slang, a troll is
a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting
people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an
online community with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an
emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

I would say that the above comment of yours fits pretty well...

> Hopefully you're not in charge of UX design (which is what
> this is all about, despite your diatribes about the Hybrid PDF format which
> are completely unrelated to the proposal).

Yes. And I have tried to explain some of the UX conseqences of the change.
Either I have failed or you do not want to understand.

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--- Comment #14 from Aleve Sicofante  ---
I also want to add a suggestion by a forum poster from as early as 2008:
https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2426#p33839

"For example by giving it an extension .o.pdf or .odt.pdf , .ods.pdf etc.
Without this, you can't easily tell what file you saved as a hybrid PDF and
what as a PDF."

That would solve very easily the eventual problem of differentiating "pure
PDF" files from Hybrid PDF files in a given folder.

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--- Comment #13 from Aleve Sicofante  ---
I'd like to add this article that supports my point:
http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon-says/2012/03/the-magic-of-editable-pdfs/index.htm

>From a usability point of view, using Export instead of Save is a burden
for an office environment wanting to adopt the scenario described in the
article.

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--- Comment #12 from Aleve Sicofante  ---
I thought you were just trolling, but I've searched a little bit and you
actually have some responsibility in the development of LibreOffice. That's
sad, and also sadly reflects the much commented "arrogant attitude of FLOSS
developers". Hopefully you're not in charge of UX design (which is what
this is all about, despite your diatribes about the Hybrid PDF format which
are completely unrelated to the proposal).

Hopefully, again, someone concerned with usability will understand my
proposal and go about it constructively. I have nothing more to discuss
with you.


2014-07-20 22:41 GMT+02:00 :

>   *Comment # 11 
> on bug 79811  from
> David Tardon  *
>
> (In reply to comment #10 
> )
> > I'm sorry but your arguments either lack basic logic reasoning, are
> > ignoring my replies altogether or are your pure personal opinions (which I
> > won't discuss, obviously).
>
>
> I am sorry too, but your only argument so far has been "some people could find
> this convenient" (which is a personal opinion, btw). Handwawy "this-or-that 
> can
> easily be solved" as response to pointed problems with your proposal is not an
> argument, _unless_ you show the solution too. And trying to marginalize my
> arguments by saying that they lack basic logic reasoning suggests you do not
> actually have any answers.
>
> Btw, could you tell me which of my replies lack basic logic reasoning, which
> are ignoring your replies and which are personal opinions?
>
> > You are constantly mixing arguments against the
> > Hibryd-PDF format instead of arguing against my particular proposal: "save
> > instead of (or in addition to) export".
>
>
> I think you have not read my response... Or are ignoring it. I will not repeat
> it again.
>
> >
> > The Hybird-PDF format is already here. Thanks God there's no need to argue
> > with you about that.
>
>
> That is the main point I tried to convey and you are unable (or unwilling) to
> understand: what we call hybrid PDF is not a separate format. It differs from
> normal PDF in a single way: somewhere inside the file there is an object 
> stream
> whose content is the original ODF. This does not make the PDF special in any
> way. Object streams are normal feature of PDF: images are saved that way, for
> example. IOW, as I have already repeated ad nauseam: the only way to
> differentiate hybrid PDF from a normal one is to process it. There are no
> special "bits" in the file header. A hybrid PDF _is_ a PDF.
>
> > Now I hope other people in LO come to read this and find my use case
> > reasonable. I have explained all that's needed and I don't believe further
> > discussing this with you is constructive at all.
>
>
> I do not believe there is anything more to discuss either.
>
> > Let me suggest you again
> > to face proposals without hostility. There's absolutely no need for that.
>
>
> Let me suggest you to face counter-arguments without being opinionated. There
> is absolutely no need for that.
>
>  --
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--- Comment #11 from David Tardon  ---
(In reply to comment #10)
> I'm sorry but your arguments either lack basic logic reasoning, are
> ignoring my replies altogether or are your pure personal opinions (which I
> won't discuss, obviously).

I am sorry too, but your only argument so far has been "some people could find
this convenient" (which is a personal opinion, btw). Handwawy "this-or-that can
easily be solved" as response to pointed problems with your proposal is not an
argument, _unless_ you show the solution too. And trying to marginalize my
arguments by saying that they lack basic logic reasoning suggests you do not
actually have any answers.

Btw, could you tell me which of my replies lack basic logic reasoning, which
are ignoring your replies and which are personal opinions?

> You are constantly mixing arguments against the
> Hibryd-PDF format instead of arguing against my particular proposal: "save
> instead of (or in addition to) export".

I think you have not read my response... Or are ignoring it. I will not repeat
it again.

> 
> The Hybird-PDF format is already here. Thanks God there's no need to argue
> with you about that.

That is the main point I tried to convey and you are unable (or unwilling) to
understand: what we call hybrid PDF is not a separate format. It differs from
normal PDF in a single way: somewhere inside the file there is an object stream
whose content is the original ODF. This does not make the PDF special in any
way. Object streams are normal feature of PDF: images are saved that way, for
example. IOW, as I have already repeated ad nauseam: the only way to
differentiate hybrid PDF from a normal one is to process it. There are no
special "bits" in the file header. A hybrid PDF _is_ a PDF. 

> Now I hope other people in LO come to read this and find my use case
> reasonable. I have explained all that's needed and I don't believe further
> discussing this with you is constructive at all.

I do not believe there is anything more to discuss either.

> Let me suggest you again
> to face proposals without hostility. There's absolutely no need for that.

Let me suggest you to face counter-arguments without being opinionated. There
is absolutely no need for that.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811

--- Comment #10 from Aleve Sicofante  ---
I'm sorry but your arguments either lack basic logic reasoning, are
ignoring my replies altogether or are your pure personal opinions (which I
won't discuss, obviously). You are constantly mixing arguments against the
Hibryd-PDF format instead of arguing against my particular proposal: "save
instead of (or in addition to) export".

The Hybird-PDF format is already here. Thanks God there's no need to argue
with you about that.

Now I hope other people in LO come to read this and find my use case
reasonable. I have explained all that's needed and I don't believe further
discussing this with you is constructive at all. Let me suggest you again
to face proposals without hostility. There's absolutely no need for that.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811

--- Comment #9 from David Tardon  ---
Btw, I would have no problem doing this the other way: i.e., allowing to save
PDF export into ODF as an alternative representation of the content (provided,
that ODF supports that. I am not sure. I know EPUB can do it, but I would have
to check for ODF.)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811

--- Comment #8 from David Tardon  ---
(In reply to comment #6)
> > * (I have already said that, but...) There is no way to differentiate 
> > between
> > normal and hybrid PDFs when looking at directory listing.
> >
> This can be easily implemented. Since the format is being created inside
> LIbreOffice, it can be marked as HybridPDF in the corresponding place in
> the file.

Where exactly is that? I am not aware of any special support in PDF to create
"subformats" (granted, I do not know details of PDF structure...) Also, doing
this immediately invokes the part about creating new format...

> BTW, all of this is irrelevant to my point: whether the Hybrid
> PDF is created via "Save as..." or "Export" doesn't change this issue.

There is a big difference in perception. For export, hybrid PDF is a
(immutable) PDF that just happens to contain the original document. So it does
not matter that it is indistinguishable from a normal PDF. For save, the format
becomes a (mutable) document format, and the PDF is a "container" and a
"preview" in one.

> 
> > * It effectively means that we are creating a new document format, not
> > supported by anyone else. There is already too many different file formats.
> > (This alone is a deal breaker for me.)
> >
> So what? It's not like ODF is being supported by everyone.

And it will never be if we start creating new formats whenever someone asks for
them.

> Besides,
> there's a good reason to use a Hybrid PDF for certain organizations, as
> I've pointed out already.

That some organizations could find it convenient is not a compelling enough
reason to create a new file format. A format that, by the way, is in most ways
inferior to ODF: saving/loading takes longer, the files are bigger, it is not
supported by any other application...

> > * It creates the perception of PDF as an editable format, which it is not.
> >
> > As long as you make it visibly different (by saving the right bits to
> identify such Hybrid PDF files) there won't be such perception at all.

Which are these "right bits"? Also, the extension will still be pdf. So, to
avoid any such problems, it would have to become widely supported by operating
systems. Not mentioning that type detection typically considers the extension
alone, because any peeks into the files are costly and would make listing of
directories with larger number of files unacceptably slow.

> Again, this is easily done when saving the file. Just write the right bits
> to make it recognizable by the OS. An H-PDF should be shown as a standard
> PDF when LibreOffice is not installed on the computer.

> Files are recognized by some sort of "magic number" written to the file.

Yes, and for PDF that magic number identifies a PDF. The ODF is saved inside an
object stream, which is only interpreted on loading.

> Most of your issues are with the format itself. You're not addressing the
> point of this bug report, which is "make it saveable" instead (or in
> addition to) "exportable".

No, my issues illustrate why it is a bad idea to "make it saveable".

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811

--- Comment #7 from Aleve Sicofante  ---
I'm sorry for the formatting. The first line of each of my replies has been
posted as if it was part of the original posting. Don't know exactly why.

Al

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811

--- Comment #6 from Aleve Sicofante  ---
2014-07-20 15:52 GMT+02:00 :

>   *Comment # 5  on
> bug 79811  from David
> Tardon  *
>
> (In reply to comment #4 
> )> > > My proposal is 
> that Hybrid PDF is offered as yet another document format to
> > > > the Save command and even allowing making it default.
> > >
> > > I strongly disagree.
> >
> > That's obvious, but you have yet to explain why.
>
> All right, so just from the top of my head (so in a random order or
> importance):
>
> * It is _slow_. I mean really slow: export to PDF is easily 10 times slower
> than save to ODF. Import is slower too, for technical reasons that cannot
> easily be changed.
>
> I'm not advocating for Hybrid PDF to become a default saving format. All
its drawbacks are up to the user, including this one.

> * (I have already said that, but...) There is no way to differentiate between
> normal and hybrid PDFs when looking at directory listing.
>
> This can be easily implemented. Since the format is being created inside
LIbreOffice, it can be marked as HybridPDF in the corresponding place in
the file. BTW, all of this is irrelevant to my point: whether the Hybrid
PDF is created via "Save as..." or "Export" doesn't change this issue.


> * Worse yet, there is no way to differentiate between different types of
> documents (text, presentations, spreadsheets, ...) That is a major usability
> regression compared to using ODF.
>
> As I said, this is easily solvable and it would apply exactly the same to
Hybrid PDF as export.


> * It effectively means that we are creating a new document format, not
> supported by anyone else. There is already too many different file formats.
> (This alone is a deal breaker for me.)
>
> So what? It's not like ODF is being supported by everyone. Besides,
there's a good reason to use a Hybrid PDF for certain organizations, as
I've pointed out already.


> * It duplicates functionality.
>
> Again, so what? All of the formats "duplicate functionality" in some way.
Hybrid PDF can earn a place among other file formats for reasons I have
already explained.

> * It creates the perception of PDF as an editable format, which it is not.
>
> As long as you make it visibly different (by saving the right bits to
identify such Hybrid PDF files) there won't be such perception at all.


> I am sure I could come with a few more if I really thought about it.
>
> If they're are as strong as the previous ones, you are actually supporting
my point...


>  > > >
> > > > From a formal point of view, since an Hybrid PDF file can be opened in
> > > > LibreOffice Writer exactly the same as an ODT file, it shouldn't belong 
> > > > to
> > > > the export option.
> > >
> > > Wrong. A hybrid PDF is still a PDF. Also, there is _no way_ to 
> > > differentiate
> > > a hybrid PDF from normal PDF except opening it, So these files would not 
> > > be
> > > listed in open dialog.
> >
> > Wronng. A Hybrid PDF is a PDF+ODF file. No way to differentiate both is
> > irrelevant.
>
> It is very much relevant from usability POV. If I have a directory full of
> PDFs, the only way to discover which ones I can edit and which can only be
> imported is to actually try to open them.
>
> OK. You're right. H-PDF should be recognizable. That's true both for
"Export" as "Save as...". Remember I'm asking here for H-PDF to become a
"saveable" format, for reasons well explained (I want the organizations
supported by me to use it by default, which isn't possible with the
"Export" option).

Again, this is easily done when saving the file. Just write the right bits
to make it recognizable by the OS. An H-PDF should be shown as a standard
PDF when LibreOffice is not installed on the computer.


> >
> > >
> > > > Expected behavior:
> > > > Hybrid PDF should be like any other document format, working on every
> > > > Save/Save As/Save a Copy/etc. commands.
> > >
> > > I can already imagine uninformed users trying to use export to PDF instead
> > > of normal save in other applications, "because it works in LibreOffice", 
> > > and
> > > losing their work...
> >
> > I don't follow this logic. LibreOffice only has to show "This PDF is not
> > Hybrid and can't be edited in Writer" when a user trys to open (not import)
> > a PDF. That won't happen with internal documents but will probably happen
> > with many external ones.
>
> This was not about LibreOffice at all. I was talking about uninformed users
> being misled into belief that PDFs can be edited in LibreOffice and losing
> their work created in _other_ applications as a consequence.
>
> This -once more- is a problem both for saving and exporting. I've
suggested a solution to this issue already.


> > Besides, nothing prevents HybridPDFs to be shown
> > with a different icon so you know which are Hybrid an

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811

--- Comment #5 from David Tardon  ---
(In reply to comment #4)
> > > My proposal is that Hybrid PDF is offered as yet another document format 
> > > to
> > > the Save command and even allowing making it default.
> > 
> > I strongly disagree.
> 
> That's obvious, but you have yet to explain why.

All right, so just from the top of my head (so in a random order or
importance):

* It is _slow_. I mean really slow: export to PDF is easily 10 times slower
than save to ODF. Import is slower too, for technical reasons that cannot
easily be changed.

* (I have already said that, but...) There is no way to differentiate between
normal and hybrid PDFs when looking at directory listing.

* Worse yet, there is no way to differentiate between different types of
documents (text, presentations, spreadsheets, ...) That is a major usability
regression compared to using ODF.

* It effectively means that we are creating a new document format, not
supported by anyone else. There is already too many different file formats.
(This alone is a deal breaker for me.)

* It duplicates functionality.

* It creates the perception of PDF as an editable format, which it is not.

I am sure I could come with a few more if I really thought about it.

> > > 
> > > From a formal point of view, since an Hybrid PDF file can be opened in
> > > LibreOffice Writer exactly the same as an ODT file, it shouldn't belong to
> > > the export option.
> > 
> > Wrong. A hybrid PDF is still a PDF. Also, there is _no way_ to differentiate
> > a hybrid PDF from normal PDF except opening it, So these files would not be
> > listed in open dialog.
> 
> Wronng. A Hybrid PDF is a PDF+ODF file. No way to differentiate both is
> irrelevant.

It is very much relevant from usability POV. If I have a directory full of
PDFs, the only way to discover which ones I can edit and which can only be
imported is to actually try to open them.

> 
> > 
> > > Expected behavior:
> > > Hybrid PDF should be like any other document format, working on every
> > > Save/Save As/Save a Copy/etc. commands.
> > 
> > I can already imagine uninformed users trying to use export to PDF instead
> > of normal save in other applications, "because it works in LibreOffice", and
> > losing their work...
> 
> I don't follow this logic. LibreOffice only has to show "This PDF is not
> Hybrid and can't be edited in Writer" when a user trys to open (not import)
> a PDF. That won't happen with internal documents but will probably happen
> with many external ones. 

This was not about LibreOffice at all. I was talking about uninformed users
being misled into belief that PDFs can be edited in LibreOffice and losing
their work created in _other_ applications as a consequence.

> Besides, nothing prevents HybridPDFs to be shown
> with a different icon so you know which are Hybrid and which aren't.

Nothing except the fact that the only way to recognize a hybrid PDF is to open
it. That is slow even locally if there is more than a few dozens of files, not
mentioning doing it for a remote folder. Also, this would only work in
LibreOffice's internal file dialog, not if the system one is used.

> 
> Just ouf of curiosity: what's your opinion on Hybrid PDFs? You just seem to
> hate them for no reason. Your overly agressive reply is way out of line.

I have nothing about hybrid PDF. I recognize its value for having a PDF export
of a document that can still be opened for editing, if necessary. But it is
still a PDF and nothing is going to change that.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

[bugzilla-daemon]

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--- Comment #4 from Aleve Sicofante  ---
(In reply to comment #2)
> (In reply to comment #0)
> > Problem description: 
> > 
> > Hybrid PDF is a great file format that would solve a lot of issues for
> > offices sending documents to others.
> 
> No, it is not. It is just a workaround to make PDF suck less. For
> interoperability, we have this OASIS standard called ODF.

Yes it is. And no, it's not a workaround whatsoever. It's a sane option to keep
a whole office on PDF avoiding the current mess of sending editable documents
out of the office. Your tone hardly invites civil discussion but I'll try.

> 
> > However, it's use is difficult to
> > implant as an habit for workers by being an export option instead of a save
> > option.
> 
> It is not difficult at all. All one needs is to click on the "Export to
> PDF" icon on toolbar.

It is indeed very difficult for a whole office of workers to use export instead
of save EVERY TIME. It's also difficult to ignore the saving function
altogether, because the goal is using Hybrid PDF as the single format inside an
organisation.

> 
> > 
> > My proposal is that Hybrid PDF is offered as yet another document format to
> > the Save command and even allowing making it default.
> 
> I strongly disagree.

That's obvious, but you have yet to explain why.

> 
> > 
> > From a formal point of view, since an Hybrid PDF file can be opened in
> > LibreOffice Writer exactly the same as an ODT file, it shouldn't belong to
> > the export option.
> 
> Wrong. A hybrid PDF is still a PDF. Also, there is _no way_ to differentiate
> a hybrid PDF from normal PDF except opening it, So these files would not be
> listed in open dialog.

Wronng. A Hybrid PDF is a PDF+ODF file. No way to differentiate both is
irrelevant. This is a case for "an internal format for an organisation that
happens to be easy to send out and easy to edit when inside the organisation.
No duplication of files ever".

> 
> > 
> > Current behavior:
> > The user needs to go through the process of exporting and avoiding the
> > standard saving mechanisms, which is odd and cumbersome and makes it hard
> > for it to become a desirable habit.
> 
> It is no more cumbersome than normal save.

It is indeed.

> 
> > 
> > Expected behavior:
> > Hybrid PDF should be like any other document format, working on every
> > Save/Save As/Save a Copy/etc. commands.
> 
> I can already imagine uninformed users trying to use export to PDF instead
> of normal save in other applications, "because it works in LibreOffice", and
> losing their work...

I don't follow this logic. LibreOffice only has to show "This PDF is not Hybrid
and can't be edited in Writer" when a user trys to open (not import) a PDF.
That won't happen with internal documents but will probably happen with many
external ones. Besides, nothing prevents HybridPDFs to be shown with a
different icon so you know which are Hybrid and which aren't.

Just ouf of curiosity: what's your opinion on Hybrid PDFs? You just seem to
hate them for no reason. Your overly agressive reply is way out of line.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811

--- Comment #3 from Aleve Sicofante  ---
(In reply to comment #1)
> Not sure this makes sense, or is even feasible, but setting an enhancement.
> 
> We are going to need specifics of the proposal.
> 
> For example, as the native ODF standards (on which the LibreOffice documents
> are based and processed) provide no interoperability with PDF, is there a
> technical description or API for this "Hybrid PDF" format? 
> 
> How would its implementation compare with overdue support for PDF
> standards--ISO 32000-1 for PDF 1.7, or of ISO 14289-1 for PDF/UA?
> 
> Correct filtered Cairo project based "print" export to PDF formats and
> filtered import into ODF as ODG is the existing architecture.  How would
> document fidelity be assured on round trips into and out of this "Hybrid
> PDF" format?
> 
> Please flesh it out including references, and attach any documentation to BZ
> this issue.

It looks like you don't even know the existence of an Hyrid PDF export option.
Please check the info on that option at the Export PDF command.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811

David Tardon  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||dtar...@redhat.com

--- Comment #2 from David Tardon  ---
(In reply to comment #0)
> Problem description: 
> 
> Hybrid PDF is a great file format that would solve a lot of issues for
> offices sending documents to others.

No, it is not. It is just a workaround to make PDF suck less. For
interoperability, we have this OASIS standard called ODF.

> However, it's use is difficult to
> implant as an habit for workers by being an export option instead of a save
> option.

It is not difficult at all. All one needs is to click on the "Export to
PDF" icon on toolbar.

> 
> My proposal is that Hybrid PDF is offered as yet another document format to
> the Save command and even allowing making it default.

I strongly disagree.

> 
> From a formal point of view, since an Hybrid PDF file can be opened in
> LibreOffice Writer exactly the same as an ODT file, it shouldn't belong to
> the export option.

Wrong. A hybrid PDF is still a PDF. Also, there is _no way_ to differentiate a
hybrid PDF from normal PDF except opening it, So these files would not be
listed in open dialog.

> 
> Current behavior:
> The user needs to go through the process of exporting and avoiding the
> standard saving mechanisms, which is odd and cumbersome and makes it hard
> for it to become a desirable habit.

It is no more cumbersome than normal save.

> 
> Expected behavior:
> Hybrid PDF should be like any other document format, working on every
> Save/Save As/Save a Copy/etc. commands.

I can already imagine uninformed users trying to use export to PDF instead of
normal save in other applications, "because it works in LibreOffice", and
losing their work...

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEEDINFO
   Severity|major   |enhancement
   Priority|high|medium
 CC||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #1 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Not sure this makes sense, or is even feasible, but setting an enhancement.

We are going to need specifics of the proposal.

For example, as the native ODF standards (on which the LibreOffice documents
are based and processed) provide no interoperability with PDF, is there a
technical description or API for this "Hybrid PDF" format? 

How would its implementation compare with overdue support for PDF
standards--ISO 32000-1 for PDF 1.7, or of ISO 14289-1 for PDF/UA?

Correct filtered Cairo project based "print" export to PDF formats and filtered
import into ODF as ODG is the existing architecture.  How would document
fidelity be assured on round trips into and out of this "Hybrid PDF" format?

Please flesh it out including references, and attach any documentation to BZ
this issue.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 79811] FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF just another format for Save commands instead of Export.

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79811

Aleve Sicofante  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Summary|FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF   |FILESAVE: Make Hybrid PDF
   |just another format for |just another format for
   |Save commands instead of|Save commands instead of
   |export. |Export.

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Aleve Sicofante  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Hardware|Other   |All
   Severity|normal  |major
   Priority|medium  |high
 CC||asicofa...@gmail.com

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