[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |FIXED

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

--- Comment #38 from Commit Notification 
 ---
Jim Raykowski committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=33a617aa43cf552b3a45b8391df28579883cd5de

tdf#94464 change text body default line spacing to 1.15

It will be available in 6.0.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

Commit Notification  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Whiteboard||target:6.0.0

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

--- Comment #37 from Jim Raykowski  ---
Here is the patch to change the text body default line spacing to 1.15
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/44027/

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |
   |.freedesktop.org|

--- Comment #36 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #35)
> This was to be about just the Text Body style...

Sure, 115% for TB.

(No need to share with the advice ML as UX advice has been given and most are
CC'ed anyway)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org

--- Comment #35 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #34)
> We talked about this in the design meeting and agreed on changing the
> default line spacing from 100% to 115%. 
> 

This was to be about just the Text Body style default set to 120% of selected
font's line height. 

Changing the Default style to be 115% of selected font's line height would be
inherited by _all_ styles--effectively changing a lot more than just the Text
Body style.

That would be a completely different and unintended effect disrupting all
styles, templates and existing documents.

We can't do that.

If the discussion was to move the default for _just_ Text Body style to 115% of
font line height--and this was a clerical error-- fine, just a bit alarming.


=-=-=
The notes from design minutes and ESC call

Design Meeting: 2017-Oct-26
Present: Eric, Jay, Heiko 
 * Default line spacing to 100%
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464
   + go with 115%?
   /115% accepted 3:0

ESC call 2017-10-26
* Present:
+ Olivier, Shinok, Thorsten, Xisco, Miklos, Cloph, Stephan, Heiko, Michael
S
  Eike, Yousuf, Armin 
   + Default line spacing from 100 to 115%
 + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||rayk...@gmail.com

--- Comment #34 from Heiko Tietze  ---
We talked about this in the design meeting and agreed on changing the default
line spacing from 100% to 115%. 

Jim, can you please take a look?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

--- Comment #33 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to Kenneth Hanson from comment #31)
> The fact that the text body style of 120% value differs from the 115% found
> in the drop-downs is also rather annoying. So in the short term I second the
> idea of setting both to 115%, even if only as a stopgap.

Dont consider it annoying as even MS doesnt provide a drop down entry dedicated
to their default line spacing. Also 115% was only recently added to the drop
down entry in LO 5.3 (bug 85949).

(In reply to Kenneth Hanson from comment #32)
> This being the case, I think that either (1) text body should be set to
> single/100% spacing and let Liberation Serif will be a bit tight, or (2)
> both text body and the dropdown option should be 115% (or 110% if it's
> decided that 115% is too much) and accept that it will be necessary to
> change the text body line spacing if you change the font.

Option 2 would be my choice and yes this default setting would be related to
the default font and if users choose to use a different default font, then they
would also adjust the line spacing to their preference as well.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

--- Comment #32 from Kenneth Hanson  ---
I'll go ahead and throw in my opinion on the other issues.

It seems to me that nothing can be done about other fonts need more or less
line spacing, and not just because of the current implementation. This is
because (1) in principle the amount of spacing needed can vary wildly depending
on the font, and (2) some fonts seem to low-ball the single line spacing while
others include plenty. In other words, whether you use a percentage of the
point size or a percentage of the line height, it would still be wrong for most
fonts, even just restricting things to Latin fonts.

This being the case, I think that either (1) text body should be set to
single/100% spacing and let Liberation Serif will be a bit tight, or (2) both
text body and the dropdown option should be 115% (or 110% if it's decided that
115% is too much) and accept that it will be necessary to change the text body
line spacing if you change the font. But I think it would be bad to set text
body to 108% (or whatever) and the dropdown to something else, because that
would be confusing to novice users.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

--- Comment #31 from Kenneth Hanson  ---
I think I've figured out what happened in the misunderstanding above. Let's see
if I can summarize.

The traditional recommendation for optimal line height is 120-145% of the point
size, depending on the exact typeface. Nowadays, individual font files include
this information, which MSO and LO use to determine the single line spacing.

The comment on Butterick's webpage about single spacing in MS Word being 117%
and the recommendation to use a value of 1.03–1.24 to set the line spacing is
therefore misleading. Based on a factoid I found elsewhere
(https://medium.com/@mattsamberg/line-spacing-explained-9aecda41f48d) it looks
like the long-time standard Times New Roman uses 14 pt line spacing for 12 pt
font size, yielding 117%. But for other fonts the value will be different.

Whoever set the body text line spacing to 120% based on this webpage was
clearly confused. As RGB notes, this value results in typical western fonts
having line spacing ranging from the high end of the suggested range (in the
case of Times New Roman and Liberation Serif) to far above it (in the case of
the fonts RGB mentioned).

Whatever other programs choose to do, the LO value is definitely too large. The
fact that the text body style of 120% value differs from the 115% found in the
drop-downs is also rather annoying. So in the short term I second the idea of
setting both to 115%, even if only as a stopgap.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks|81234   |


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81234
[Bug 81234] [META] RTF filter issues
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

--- Comment #30 from Regina Henschel  ---
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #29)
> Would have expected it to reference CSS's line-height attribute[1] as
> font-size[2] is likely the point size.

Yes fo:line-height is defined by the CSS line-height property. I mean, that
"font-size" is the base for a percentage value of line-height. That is the same
in XSL-fo and CSS. The question is, whether "font-size" includes the parts top
and bottom, where nothing of the character is painted. In that case "font size"
would be different from traditional typography and the old rules for leading
would no longer apply.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||j...@vandenoever.info

--- Comment #29 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to Khaled Hosny from comment #26)
> Other than that, if you want, say, 120% of point size, make sure you are
> really doing that and not a 120% from the default font line spacing which is
> completely unrelated.

Is there a means to set a 120% point size that will work with all fonts and be
a value we can set in the line spacing paragraph field?

(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #27)
> The line spacing is set in a fo:line-height attribute. The percentage value
> of it references the attribute "font-size" of CSS. But I'm not sure, how CSS
> measures "font-size".

Would have expected it to reference CSS's line-height attribute[1] as
font-size[2] is likely the point size.

[1] https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/pr_dim_line-height.asp
[2] https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/pr_font_font-size.asp

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

--- Comment #28 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Khaled Hosny from comment #26)
> My recommendation for the default is to use whatever the font defines; ...

IIUC from reading source, we are working against the font metric's hhea or typo
values, so that would be matched our 100, aka 1.00 multiplier--but not a dev
and always willing to be schooled if I've misread the source.

> 
> Other than that, if you want, say, 120% of point size, make sure you are
> really doing that and not a 120% from the default font line spacing which is
> completely unrelated.

Yes that is the issue here--we multiply the font's line spacing, not its
effective point size. So the generalized "Western" typography guidelines are
really not appropriate--and to my mind cause problems with use of well designed
fonts.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

--- Comment #27 from Regina Henschel  ---
(In reply to Khaled Hosny from comment #26)
> Other than that, if you want, say, 120% of point size, make sure you are
> really doing that and not a 120% from the default font line spacing which is
> completely unrelated.

And here LibreOffice is surely wrong. Results of some measuring for "Liberation
Serif" 12pt:
Line spacing at 100% (="single") is 0.49cm
Line spacing at 120% is 0.58cm; 0.49cm*1.2=0,588cm
Line spacing at 200% is 0.97cm; 0.49cm*2 =0.98cm
Obviously LibreOffice takes the line spacing "single" as reference for its
percent calculation.

If I measure from top "h" to down "p", I get 0.39cm.
If I measure the width of "m", I get 0,326cm.
Taking that as "font size", makes "single" line spacing having a leading
included, as RGB has written.

I get similar results for "Palatino Linotype" 12pt:
Line spacing at 100% is 0.57cm
Line spacing at 120% is 0.68cm; 0.57cm*1.2=0,684cm
The "h" to "p" distance is here 0.42cm and the width of "m" is 0.371cm.

The line spacing is set in a fo:line-height attribute. The percentage value of
it references the attribute "font-size" of CSS. But I'm not sure, how CSS
measures "font-size".

I support to set line space to "single" in style "Text body".

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

--- Comment #26 from Khaled Hosny  ---
My recommendation for the default is to use whatever the font defines; an
Arabic font will generally need more spacing than Latin fonts, and whatever
guide you are using is probably Latin centering so it is dangerous to
generalize any recommendations you read.

Other than that, if you want, say, 120% of point size, make sure you are really
doing that and not a 120% from the default font line spacing which is
completely unrelated.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

--- Comment #25 from Ari Latvala  ---
While you are arguing about different solutions, pls. remember that best result
overall will be, when both LO and MS Word create as identical layout as
possible, especially when importing and exporting. This makes it easy to switch
products and work in heterogeneous environments.

Even Word has it's own internal conversion table for different Word formats so
that documents can be handled on different versions without changing visible
layout too much and user can even easily manage those. Maybe LO should
implement this also, i.e. recognize the version, on which document was created
originally and then adjust it's formatting accordingly to keep original layout
intact. 

It is crucial on many environments to be able to edit documents with both
products without causing critical layout changes and of course there are other
products as well to consider. The better LO handles import and export, the more
it can be used. Unfortunately current situation is far from ideal, too many
documents become more or less unusable during the import/export. Even when
creating on LO and just saving i.e. to DOCX may already lead to unusable
results, when opening again not to mention files created originally on MS
Office.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

--- Comment #24 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #22)
> 
> though i would minus 1 from it so we could go for 1.15 like other apps.
> ... 
> 
> Took Cor's doc and modified it to include the range between 1.00 and 1.20 so
> we can compare the sizes. I think 1.10 and 1.15 have the good amount of
> space to not feel to camped or to large.

If we like the 115 for Text Body, rather than User/Proportional with a default
of 115--it would make more sense to just use the "1.15" and cleanup the
DocumentStylePoolManager template, assigning the LINESPACE_115 var and allowing
the listbox to populate with the LLINESPACE_115 definition and its enum to use
the "1.15 Lines" label.

But, I would still prefer cutting back to Single space, i.e. 100--for the
general use case for Text Body--it is what users are used to from the Default
style which has always used that as a starting point.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||khaledho...@eglug.org,
   ||momonas...@gmail.com

--- Comment #23 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
@Khaled, @Maxim, @Heiko: Do you guys have a take on this?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

--- Comment #22 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
Created attachment 133787
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133787=edit
1.00 to 1.20 comparison

(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #21)
> Correct. And as "peculiar" for MS's implementation, our target range for the
> 120%-145% line spacing would be the same 1.03-1.29 that Butterick
> suggests--just in our implementation a 103-129 value.  Using our current
> Text Body style default of 120 puts our spacing closer to 138%--too large.

The recommendation states that anything within the 120% to 145% range is fine,
so why would it be too large to use 138%? I'm fine with taking the middle value
of the range, 132.5%, which is would be equivalent to 1.16, though i would
minus 1 from it so we could go for 1.15 like other apps.

> We should be on the lower end, so 108 as Cor suggested was reasonable, and
> as MS Moved Office to at 2013, effectively 125% of the Point size
> ("effective" depending on the hhea or Typo height described in the font). 
> The Gentium Plus, Gentium Plus Compact are a good example of how the font
> itself controls the line spacing by increasing or decreasing the
> ascent/descent for the same glyphs on a common em square.

If you look at the line spacing page[1], it says "The text in this paragraph
has line spacing of 135%. It looks fine.", which is using 1.35, so wouldnt be
in favour of going to the lower end.

[1] http://practicaltypography.com/line-spacing.html

Took Cor's doc and modified it to include the range between 1.00 and 1.20 so we
can compare the sizes. I think 1.10 and 1.15 have the good amount of space to
not feel to camped or to large.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

--- Comment #21 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #20)
> (In reply to RGB from comment #19)
> > NO, NO and NO again. What I'm saying is that what Butterick recommends was
> > misinterpreted!
> 
> No its is not. I linked to Butterick's explanation of how to achieve their
> recommendation of 120-140% in MS Word and you said to not trust the details
> mentioned on their page as "the author do not understand how "most word
> processors" work". So either you are for the recommendation as a whole or
> against it.

Correct. And as "peculiar" for MS's implementation, our target range for the
120%-145% line spacing would be the same 1.03-1.29 that Butterick
suggests--just in our implementation a 103-129 value.  Using our current Text
Body style default of 120 puts our spacing closer to 138%--too large.

We should be on the lower end, so 108 as Cor suggested was reasonable, and as
MS Moved Office to at 2013, effectively 125% of the Point size ("effective"
depending on the hhea or Typo height described in the font).  The Gentium Plus,
Gentium Plus Compact are a good example of how the font itself controls the
line spacing by increasing or decreasing the ascent/descent for the same glyphs
on a common em square.

This becomes more important to resolve if as suggested for bug 47295 we move
these metrics to be the basis of the Default style, i.e. what is applied to all
text when Direct Formatting is removed.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

--- Comment #20 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to RGB from comment #19)
> NO, NO and NO again. What I'm saying is that what Butterick recommends was
> misinterpreted!

No its is not. I linked to Butterick's explanation of how to achieve their
recommendation of 120-140% in MS Word and you said to not trust the details
mentioned on their page as "the author do not understand how "most word
processors" work". So either you are for the recommendation as a whole or
against it.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

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--- Comment #19 from RGB  ---
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #18)
> @RGB: So in short, you disagree with the change of using what Butterick's
> Practical Typography recommends, 

NO, NO and NO again. What I'm saying is that what Butterick recommends was
misinterpreted!

Again, Butterick says that line spacing should be between 120 and 140 % OF THE
POINT SIZE, but MOST FONTS ALREADY PROVIDE THAT SPACING BY DESIGN ON THEIR
DEFAULT LINE SPACING. If you set on Writer "proportional at 120%" you are
taking a 120% of a 120% of the point size WHICH GIVES YOU A RIDICULOUS 144%.
And that's on the best case scenario: fonts like GNU Free Font, Gentium Plus
and the aforementioned Sukhumala have larger default line spacing, up to 130%
or even more. Almost every typeface that supports non European scripts have
larger than normal default line spacing: on them, "proportional at 120%" is
even more ridiculous. 

So, to summarize: WHAT'S IMPLEMENTED ON WRITER IS NOT WHAT BUTTERICK
RECOMMENDS. Writer's implementation of default line spacing IS WRONG.

Why it is so difficult to understand this simple problem? Anyway, do whatever
you want. I'm tired. I'm quitting this silly discussion right now so don't ask
me more, I already gave my answers.


> as that is what has been implemented. Cant
> say that i agree with you, or to the suggest maximum of 110%, as i find
> single line spacing quite cramped and difficult to read, and believe
> 'Default Style' should also be changed from single. Also none of the major
> word processors default to using single line spacing.
> 
> MS Word 2007-2010 : 1.15 (10pt below paragraph)
> MS Word 2013+ : 1.08 ( 8pt below paragraph)
> iWork Pages   : 1.2
> Google Docs   : 1.15 ( 0pt below paragraph)
> 
> (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #17)
> > For what it is worth, current Microsoft Office normal.dotm sets spacing for
> > multi-line paragraph to 1.08, not 1.15
> 
> Yes this is correct, as i regularly use 2010 and assumed 2013+ used the same.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||tietze.he...@gmail.com

--- Comment #18 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
@RGB: So in short, you disagree with the change of using what Butterick's
Practical Typography recommends, as that is what has been implemented. Cant say
that i agree with you, or to the suggest maximum of 110%, as i find single line
spacing quite cramped and difficult to read, and believe 'Default Style' should
also be changed from single. Also none of the major word processors default to
using single line spacing.

MS Word 2007-2010 : 1.15 (10pt below paragraph)
MS Word 2013+ : 1.08 ( 8pt below paragraph)
iWork Pages   : 1.2
Google Docs   : 1.15 ( 0pt below paragraph)

(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #17)
> For what it is worth, current Microsoft Office normal.dotm sets spacing for
> multi-line paragraph to 1.08, not 1.15

Yes this is correct, as i regularly use 2010 and assumed 2013+ used the same.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 94464] Text Body default line spacing too big ( proportional 120% instead of Single )

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Summary|Text Body default line  |Text Body default line
   |spacing too big |spacing too big
   |(proportional 115% instead  |(proportional 120% instead
   |of Single ) |of Single )

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