Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Enhancements - Getting User Input
Joel Madero píše v Po 15. 04. 2013 v 11:20 -0700: Also we don't need a new system for the voting, we already have the bugzilla. Currently we don't use bugzilla voting, also it is a big problem if the #1 enhancement request is some crazy request that takes 1000 hours to implement. The idea is that we limit the poll to enhancements we KNOW can be implemented in time and assign a well known developer to it who won't just shelve it and let it sit there indefinitely. I am afraid that this could not work easily. If we do the work and select 10-15 nice features and find potential volunteers, we probably do not need voting. There will be most likely different volunteers for the different features. If they wanted to work on them, they would work on them independently on the voting results. The voting is always dangerous because it reflects only opinion of the voters. We have millions users and I am afraid that only few hundreds would vote. The voting would crate a commitment for TDF but I am not sure about the profit. Finally, it is hard to promis anything without a contract. We could not create contract with volunteers. I agree here with Bjorn that this might end in tears on all sides. Best Regards, Petr PS: I feel a bit bad that we are so negative about this idea. It is great that you come up with ideas how to improve things. Well, in this case, I would be more careful. We were not sure whether to enable voting for bugs. We decided to hide it a bit under affects me flag. Let's see how this works before playing with voting on more fronts :-) ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Enhancements - Getting User Input
On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 4:35 AM, Petr Mladek pmla...@suse.cz wrote: I am afraid that this could not work easily. If we do the work and select 10-15 nice features and find potential volunteers, we probably do not need voting. There will be most likely different volunteers for the different features. ok, interesting. If they wanted to work on them, they would work on them independently on the voting results. Hmm... I imagine that some of the volunteers might like a little guidance as to what bugs/issues are most affecting our users right now? The voting is always dangerous because it reflects only opinion of the voters. We have millions users and I am afraid that only few hundreds would vote. The voting would crate a commitment for TDF but I am not sure about the profit. Right now we don't have any voting and (essentially) no visible input from the users as to what should be fixed first. I believe that Joel told me that the devs *kind of* look at the bug stats, # of people cc'd, etc... and use that as input into prioritization, but there's no hard and fast rule. Voting can be dangerous for multiple reasons: - ballot stuffing - low sample size - etc.. But there are definitely ways to mitigate some of these issues. One way is to get more users to sign up for FDO which, coincidentally, means that we have more users who can easily enter new bugs :-) Another method would be to use random sampling of our users (perhaps weighted a little by contributions to FDO, the wiki, Ask, git, etc..). PS: I feel a bit bad that we are so negative about this idea. It is great that you come up with ideas how to improve things. From my perspective, I think that we need to generate a lot more ideas about how to improve things, even if we have to shoot down 90% of them for one reason or another. User involvement is key to us growing our ranks, and is an important piece of a healthy software community. Well, in this case, I would be more careful. We were not sure whether to enable voting for bugs. We decided to hide it a bit under affects me flag. Let's see how this works before playing with voting on more fronts :-) +1 Speaking of which: How did the discussion w/ESC go? --R ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Enhancements - Getting User Input
Robinson Tryon wrote On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 4:35 AM, Petr Mladek lt; pmladek@ gt; wrote: Right now we don't have any voting and (essentially) no visible input from the users as to what should be fixed first. I believe that Joel told me that the devs *kind of* look at the bug stats, # of people cc'd, etc... and use that as input into prioritization, but there's no hard and fast rule. Well, I wouldn't call it voting, but there is the Wiki Vote for Enhancement https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Vote_for_Enhancement . But to participate, another account credential -- in addition to FDO Bugzilla, and FDO Ask; and some desire to learn to edit Wiki, which for this page is NOT the simplest. Needless to say it is pretty low volume and self selecting. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Enhancements-Getting-User-Input-tp4049932p4050324.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Enhancements - Getting User Input
Hi, On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 08:18:17PM -0700, Joel Madero wrote: We select 10-15 possible enhancements that can be completed in a reasonably short period of time (within a minor release). We blog about this (I can do this) with a simple poll. We then announce this to the user list and make some PR announcement about we are listening to what you think!. Allowing this would limit the list to enhancements that we agree can be done in a short period but open up which enhancement to the wider community. My thought is we attempt this for our next release in 4.1 Thoughts? Nope, at least not with PR or we are listening to what you think! up front. It needs to be the other way around: If you find a set of enhancements that seem to be valueable to users, the primary goals needs to be to sell those ideas to developers. Before a developer is commited to a task, there should not be any PR about it. And if its a volunteer, there should not be any PR about it before the task is _finished_. Everything else will end in tears. Best, Bjoern ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Enhancements - Getting User Input
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Bjoern Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com wrote: Hi, On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 08:18:17PM -0700, Joel Madero wrote: We select 10-15 possible enhancements that can be completed in a reasonably short period of time (within a minor release). We blog about this (I can do this) with a simple poll. We then announce this to the user list and make some PR announcement about we are listening to what you think!. Allowing this would limit the list to enhancements that we agree can be done in a short period but open up which enhancement to the wider community. My thought is we attempt this for our next release in 4.1 Thoughts? Nope, at least not with PR or we are listening to what you think! up front. It needs to be the other way around: If you find a set of enhancements that seem to be valueable to users, the primary goals needs to be to sell those ideas to developers. Before a developer is commited to a task, there should not be any PR about it. And if its a volunteer, there should not be any PR about it before the task is _finished_. Everything else will end in tears. Best, Bjoern ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/ Also we don't need a new system for the voting, we already have the bugzilla. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Enhancements - Getting User Input
Also we don't need a new system for the voting, we already have the bugzilla. Currently we don't use bugzilla voting, also it is a big problem if the #1 enhancement request is some crazy request that takes 1000 hours to implement. The idea is that we limit the poll to enhancements we KNOW can be implemented in time and assign a well known developer to it who won't just shelve it and let it sit there indefinitely. Best, Joel -- *Joel Madero* LibreOffice QA Volunteer jmadero@gmail.com ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
