Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Fwd: Ubuntu Templates
On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 03:13:08PM +0200, Alexander Wilms wrote: > Should I rather use default fonts or could you/other devs integrate > them? For the masterpages I would prefer default fonts at least for 3.6. Adding new fonts has a few implications we should keep in mind: - they need to be packed by LibreOffice on windows - they need to exist as package on Linux and add dependencies there On Ubuntu, the second point has further implications as we have a strict limit on the install media size. So adding fonts to LibreOffice might force me to kick out other stuff to keep LibreOffice in the default install. Trust me, there is not much left to kick ;) > To be honest, I don't think we should keep the old ones. They all > look rather dated and I think it would be better to have maybe fewer > but more refined ones in the 3.6 release. Ok, could you either collect the names for the masterslides you (all designers) assume to have ready by 3.6.0? The names that pop up over the slides at l10n-able and thus should be there early for the localizers to work on. Alternative: Give them names that do not need to be localized ;) > Regarding fodp vs. otp: Have you made a final decision? You have a feature/masterpages branch now. Commit there as otp at free, we will rebase/merge it shortly before branchoff and thus there should be no huge impact on repo size from whatever is done there. fodp thus is a nice-to-have now and not a dealbreaking showstopper, which is good. > And what about the resources I use to create the background images, > like blender Files or SVGs? Should I store them on the Wiki? Wiki is a good start. In the long run we might give you a git repository for that. > One last question: it appears that /extras/source/shellnew contains > the files that are opened when creating a new file. Would you be OK > with it if I replaced soffice.odt with the Avantgarde template after > removing all the text? Lets discuss this (and the other stuff) on the ESC call. You are joining, right? Best, Bjoern ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Disabling file opening and saving in print preview mode
Hi there, While looking into this bug https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48348 I noticed that we actually allow saving and loading of document in print preview mode. But to me that feels very odd. Allowing to print from the preview mode makes sense, but saving the document makes little sense, and loading another document while in print preview mode even less so. What do you think about disabling these operations while in print preview mode? That would make the above bug a non-issue as an added bonus. Disabling them would also make the implementation much saner since it's not easy to support and maintain these functionalities in preview mode, since, technically, the print preview is an entirely different "application" that happens to use the same document model. Limiting the functionality of the preview mode to just allow previewing and printing would ease the maintenance burden substantially. Views and opinions appreciated. Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Disabling file opening and saving in print preview mode
→ reply to list, too Hi Kohei, > I noticed that we actually allow saving and loading of document in print > preview mode. But to me that feels very odd. What sticks out as most odd to me is that our print preview is so incredibly cluttered (menu bar + 2 toolbars), whereas e.g. in Firefox it is very focused (just a toolbar). So, yes, I do agree with this, in general, just the Print Preview toolbar should be enough. However [crazy idea], since we now have a Print dialogue that already contains a preview, might it be worth thinking about just removing the separate print preview feature and making the print preview inside the dialogue a little bigger? ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Disabling file opening and saving in print preview mode
On 05/31/2012 10:48 AM, Kohei Yoshida wrote: I noticed that we actually allow saving and loading of document in print preview mode. But to me that feels very odd. Allowing to print from the preview mode makes sense, but saving the document makes little sense, and loading another document while in print preview mode even less so. I personally can't ever remember having the desire to load or save a document while in print preview nor can I fathom a reason to do so. Respectfully, Daniel Bankston ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Disabling file opening and saving in print preview mode
Kohei Yoshida schrieb: What do you think about disabling these operations while in print preview mode? Hi, My POV: I would LIKE a "save (or better: close) and reopen in PP mode" for some WRITER documents. Those are data sheets and small catalogs, what mostly are opened to print some pages of the document as attachment for a delivery of goods or similar. So my suggestion would have been "let WRITER documents open documents in PP mode if they have been saved from PP mode", in some cases that saves some mouse clicks. But that is a very low-value desire. Currently Writer always will open in normal view mode (or Web view), even if the document has been saved from PP mode. So we should eliminate that inconsistence by always opening documents in Normal View (or Page break preview mode, if selected), even if document has been saved from PP view. But I do not recommend to disable "save" as long as PP is active. That would be inconsistent compared to writer and might be worrying. Simply ignore "was in PP mode when has been saved". Best regards Rainer ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Disabling file opening and saving in print preview mode
On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 11:48 -0400, Kohei Yoshida wrote: > Hi there, > > While looking into this bug > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48348 > > I noticed that we actually allow saving and loading of document in print > preview mode. But to me that feels very odd. Allowing to print from > the preview mode makes sense, but saving the document makes little > sense, and loading another document while in print preview mode even > less so. > > What do you think about disabling these operations while in print > preview mode? That would make the above bug a non-issue as an added > bonus. Disabling them would also make the implementation much saner > since it's not easy to support and maintain these functionalities in > preview mode, since, technically, the print preview is an entirely > different "application" that happens to use the same document model. > Limiting the functionality of the preview mode to just allow previewing > and printing would ease the maintenance burden substantially. > > Views and opinions appreciated. > > Kohei > I think it entirely reasonable not to offer Save from preview mode. (I am the reporter of bug 48348, and I only realized that preview mode was involved when I came back to my saved file with a fresh build and then *accidentally* came out of preview mode. That just about proves that I did not need to save from preview mode, doesn't it? ) There remains a question about what the program should do when the user (or system?) closes the application while a changed document is in preview mode. I think the Save/Discard dialog at this point is still highly desirable. If it is easiest to go back to the editing program and let the editing program handle it, I think that would be fine. I think that the option to close a single unchanged document from preview mode sounds useful but not essential. All this, of course, comes from my way of working with LO. YMMV. HTH, Terry. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Disabling file opening and saving in print preview mode
Hi, Stefan Knorr (Astron) schrieb: → reply to list, too Thanks for reminder ;) Hi Kohei, I noticed that we actually allow saving and loading of document in print preview mode. But to me that feels very odd. What sticks out as most odd to me is that our print preview is so incredibly cluttered (menu bar + 2 toolbars), whereas e.g. in Firefox it is very focused (just a toolbar). So, yes, I do agree with this, in general, just the Print Preview toolbar should be enough. Yes, but you have to add some icons, e.g. "page preview", "help", "print directly" "pdf directly". BTW: In the UI the name is "Page Preview" not "Print Preview", although the command is ".uno:PrintPreview". And I think 'Page Preview' is the correct term, because it is not a print preview, see below. However [crazy idea], since we now have a Print dialogue that already contains a preview, might it be worth thinking about just removing the separate print preview feature and making the print preview inside the dialogue a little bigger? No. Reasons: 1. The 'Page Preview' mode shows the content on the page size set in the page style. The preview in printing dialog considers real paper size and settings of the 'Page Layout' tab of that dialog. It also considers selections. 2. The 'Page Preview' mode has a zoom and a full screen mode. 3. The 'Page Preview' mode allows changing of margins and column width by dragging with the mouse. Especially altering the margins here is very important, because the 'Page Preview' shows header and footer and considers repeat rows/columns and shows the table position. Kind regards Regina ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Disabling file opening and saving in print preview mode
On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 11:48 -0400, Kohei Yoshida wrote: > Views and opinions appreciated. Thanks everyone for the feedback. Given all the feedbacks, my conclusion is that we should keep the current behavior of allowing the save action from the preview mode. The main issue is that we *do* allow editing of the document in the preview mode (as Regina pointed out), in which case having the ability to save the document there does make sense. That also means that I'll just have to go back and figure out what's going wrong when saving the document from the preview mode (as reported in the bug report). :-/ Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Disabling file opening and saving in print preview mode
On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 16:07 -0400, Kohei Yoshida wrote: > That also means that I'll just have to go back and figure out what's > going wrong when saving the document from the preview mode (as reported > in the bug report). :-/ Ok. There is a major issue when saving a document from the preview mode I just discovered. None of the view properties that normally get saved when saved from the normal mode get saved when saved from the preview mode. The reason is, as I mentioned earlier, the preview mode is an entirely separate application from the normal Calc app, and it doesn't have access to all the view properties that the normal Calc app has. This is a major setback... I'd still like to offer a save from the preview, but fixing this will not be without technical challenges... Here, the term "view properties" refers to the data that get saved in the settings.xml stream in the ods archive. You can unzip a test ods and compare this xml file with one saved from the normal mode, and one saved from the preview mode. The latter is missing quite a bit of information which probably contributes to the odd behavior reported in the bug. Scratching my head... Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Disabling file opening and saving in print preview mode
On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 08:06:12PM +0200, Regina Henschel wrote: > >However [crazy idea], since we now have a Print dialogue that already > >contains a preview, might it be worth thinking about just removing the > >separate print preview feature and making the print preview inside the > >dialogue a little bigger? > > No. Reasons: > 1. The 'Page Preview' mode shows the content on the page size set in > the page style. The preview in printing dialog considers real paper > size and settings of the 'Page Layout' tab of that dialog. It also > considers selections. *cough* I dont know if that is a feature. I would assume 99% of our user base to be confused by 'Page Preview' and 'Print Preview' showing different things rather than considering it a feature. > 2. The 'Page Preview' mode has a zoom and a full screen mode. Well, couldnt those be added in the Print Preview too? > 3. The 'Page Preview' mode allows changing of margins and column > width by dragging with the mouse. Especially altering the margins > here is very important, because the 'Page Preview' shows header and > footer and considers repeat rows/columns and shows the table > position. As Kohei suggest further down this is actually implemented in a buggy/incomplete way and I find "I will go in the page preview to change margins (even though it does not use the real paper size, but the one from the page style)" not really a usecase justifying a whole different view. So in total, I still like Astrons crazy idea. Just my 2 cents. Best, Bjoern ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Disabling file opening and saving in print preview mode
On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 19:04 +0200, Stefan Knorr (Astron) wrote: > → reply to list, too > > Hi Kohei, > > > I noticed that we actually allow saving and loading of document in print > > preview mode. But to me that feels very odd. > > What sticks out as most odd to me is that our print preview is so > incredibly cluttered (menu bar + 2 toolbars), whereas e.g. in Firefox > it is very focused (just a toolbar). > So, yes, I do agree with this, in general, just the Print Preview > toolbar should be enough. Actually (thinking about this again), given the way our current preview window is implemented, this (i.e. remove the menu bar and the top tool bar, and only leave the preview toolbar and disable a bunch of other things) is probably the best we can offer. Anything else we try to do would end up causing lots of odd behaviors in many corners, such as bug fdo#48348. > However [crazy idea], since we now have a Print dialogue that already > contains a preview, might it be worth thinking about just removing the > separate print preview feature and making the print preview inside the > dialogue a little bigger? This is a certainly possibility too. We should keep this idea as a long-term solution. In the short-term though, doing the above would be the solution I'd choose. -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Disabling file opening and saving in print preview mode
On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 19:26 +0200, Rainer Bielefeld wrote: > Kohei Yoshida schrieb: > > > What do you think about disabling these operations while in print > > preview mode? > > > Hi, > My POV: I would LIKE a "save (or better: close) and reopen in PP mode" > for some WRITER documents. Those are data sheets and small catalogs, > what mostly are opened to print some pages of the document as attachment > for a delivery of goods or similar. So my suggestion would have been > "let WRITER documents open documents in PP mode if they have been saved > from PP mode", in some cases that saves some mouse clicks. Well, unfortunately we will probably have to adopt the Writer way (of never opening in PP mode) in Calc too, due to the limitation I already outlined in my other mails. The preview window needs parts of the view properties transferred from the main Calc window when it launches, and if we launch the preview window first before we initialize the view properties in the main Calc window first, we'd lose that opportunity. This may have worked okay in the past when we didn't do any clever pagination in the preview mode. But now we do more sophisticated pagination based on selected sheets, losing the proper initialization in the main Calc window would be detrimental... > But that is a very low-value desire. And hopefully you'll be okay with it. > Currently Writer always will open in normal view mode (or Web view), > even if the document has been saved from PP mode. > > So we should eliminate that inconsistence by always opening documents in > Normal View (or Page break preview mode, if selected), even if document > has been saved from PP view. But I do not recommend to disable "save" as > long as PP is active. That would be inconsistent compared to writer and > might be worrying. Simply ignore "was in PP mode when has been saved". Then I would propose disabling save in Writer too. I have enough reasons to believe that, in Calc at least, saving the document from the preview mode would never work to everyone's satisfaction. It would always leave some weird corner cases even if we fix this particular bug that Terrence reported. Kohei ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Disabling file opening and saving in print preview mode
On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 13:36 -0400, Terrence Enger wrote: > There remains a question about what the program should do when the > user (or system?) closes the application while a changed document is > in preview mode. I think the Save/Discard dialog at this point is > still highly desirable. If it is easiest to go back to the editing > program and let the editing program handle it, I think that would be > fine. Yup. I think we'll need to pass that on to the main Calc window and have the main window handle it, instead of having the preview window handle it in-situ. Good point. Kohei -- Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
