[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #57 from Sascha Z --- (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #56) > Suffice to say that as demonstrated by this UX-advise BZ issue--user > expectations often may diverge from practical considerations of what is in > the best interest of LibreOffice as an ODF-centric cross-platform Office > program. No, I disagree for the fact that LibreOffice should always work in the best interest of its user expectations. Not vice versa! With only one difference in the amount of users. Meaning a single user might be wrong, a group of users might still be asking for changes disregarded by the majority, while the majority of users is the one and only angle to focus on. Only problem - we can't gather enough informations what the majority of users is using. Or would like to use if they know it does exists. So what do you suggest: a Tip of the day or a user choice during first start-up? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #56 from V Stuart Foote --- (In reply to John Mills from comment #55) Well as most of those questions are obviously rhetorical--I won't bother. Suffice to say that as demonstrated by this UX-advise BZ issue--user expectations often may diverge from practical considerations of what is in the best interest of LibreOffice as an ODF-centric cross-platform Office program. Changing the default "standard" UI to the current MUFFIN NB implementation of a Tabbed UI would have little practical advantage (appearance or function), with potential for substantial regression in UX over our Toolbar/Menu/Dialog UI. Ill-advised on all counts... -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #55 from John Mills --- >The MUFFIN Notebook Bar framework is limited by the controls, attributes and >actions available implemented as UNO applets. >UNO controls can not be manipulated like Ribbon Class object and any >functional similarity is skin deep. They are not implemented as 'native' >Windows >(UWP/DWM)and so won't function like them--though naive users will >expect them to. Why expose the Windows users to that disappointment--and >cause a lot of grief to the project otherwise when those users say they >"expect" it. Hi Stuart, I'm not sure if you would have any knowledge on this but it is an interesting question to ponder. Do you know if WPS Office is directly programmable for UWP and DWM use on Windows? And does it also integrates well with other Windows controls? If it doesn't then does that hamper the use of the application by 'naive' Windows users who know no better? If it does use these interfaces then do the users of WPS office on MacOS have a poorer user experience than their Windows counterparts? Do the users on Linux also? Do they contact the publisher to report their poorer experience? Are they unable to accomplish their office tasks because of this? I can ask the same question for: SoftmakerOffice Polaris Office FreeOffice OnlyOffice (Desktop client) And a number of Chinese office suites I have forgotten the name of, I'm sure there are others also. Do users of Microsoft Office on Mac also have these issues because they lack of these essential functions? Do users of Microsoft Office 365 web client have this poor user experience are they frustrated and unable to accomplish their tasks? >Rather than wasting project resources on changing default and dealing with >long running support requests, IMHO much more appealing to fix other facets of >the GUI (e.g. Dark Mode support). >And then implement new useful document modes for the Libreoffice GUI handling >of ODF, e.g. Tabbed (bug 33173) or Multi-document (bug 37134) Does the possibility of switching to another user interface such as Tabbed preclude these improvements taking place? Can we only have one of the other? Is it not possible to use a dark mode with notebook bar interfaces? Does the architecture of the Notebook bar solutions preclude this? Maybe it's only a Linux thing but I'm sure that it is possibility to have a dark interface with LibreOffice under Ubuntu. If LibreOffice intended to include document tabs would it not be possible also in one of the notebook bar interfaces? This can only be accomplished in the current shipping interface? Kind regards -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #54 from Telesto --- (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #53) > (In reply to Telesto from comment #52) > > > (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #6) > > > No this is pragmatic--the MUFFIN Tabbed NB only looks like the MS Ribbon > > > UI > > > it does not implement that API. > > > > I'm not all know in feature richness of the Ribbon interface. So what are > > you exactly pointing too? Live Preview? Or also other things? > > Have a look, the MS Ribbon Class [1] is fully implemented API for GUI > development in source (or for user scripted GUI customization). Every facet > of the MS Ribbon UI is directly programmable for UWP or DWM use, and then > integrates well with other MS Windows controls. If with they tabbed bar certain unrealistic expectations are raised automatically, it might be a problem. OTOH, if people dislike simply they the UI it would solve a problem. And this is delivered by the beloved competitors too (excluding MS Office). Do the competitors have real Ribbon, Or are those also superficial imitations (Didnt' check) And I really don't know what people look for.. a similar layout or similar functioning. There must be quite a group who doesn't use the 'advanced' programmable stuff. They only want something what they have seen before And there is quite some time spend on all those interfaces already :-). So my impression is that not so many resources are needed to finalize it; being a tabbed toolbar (not Ribbon). Without the intention of becoming a Ribbon in the short or mid term. I do know that some people are complaining about 'LibreOffice' looking like they '90's. And this might cause the impression of LibreOffice being dated. Not sure how large the whole group is assessing it this way. However there surely a need to prevent the wrong expectations arising (expectation management). This can partly be solved by some additional lines in the Release notes explaining... But sure, there are many sides to this. If opted for tabbed, it really should be over the full line.. So including Linux (on any environment). If Linux distro's want to tweak it, fine.. but the TDF release should be the same for all environments.. (Screenshot on the internet and documentation etc).. Pre-requisite are surely a11y support, nice aesthetics and proper documentation, IMHO. And it should be more or less bug free of course. Fortunately it's not up to me ;-). It's surely not simple yes/no answer. There a pro/cons. My wish list (or should I say reported bug list/regression list) is pretty long. I would love (some of) those being fixed.. Even before new features are added. Anyhow I see no objection for a (temporal) experiment on Master and/or Beta 1 and 2 and maybe one or 2 RC's. Simple to see what happens.. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #53 from V Stuart Foote --- (In reply to Telesto from comment #52) > (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #6) > > No this is pragmatic--the MUFFIN Tabbed NB only looks like the MS Ribbon UI > > it does not implement that API. > > I'm not all know in feature richness of the Ribbon interface. So what are > you exactly pointing too? Live Preview? Or also other things? Have a look, the MS Ribbon Class [1] is fully implemented API for GUI development in source (or for user scripted GUI customization). Every facet of the MS Ribbon UI is directly programmable for UWP or DWM use, and then integrates well with other MS Windows controls. The MUFFIN Notebook Bar framework is limited by the controls, attributes and actions available implemented as UNO applets. UNO controls can not be manipulated like Ribbon Class object and any functional similarity is skin deep. They are not implemented as 'native' Windows (UWP/DWM) and so won't function like them--though naive users will expect them to. Why expose the Windows users to that disappointment--and cause a lot of grief to the project otherwise when those users say they "expect" it. Rather than wasting project resources on changing default and dealing with long running support requests, IMHO much more appealing to fix other facets of the GUI (e.g. Dark Mode support). And then implement new useful document modes for the Libreoffice GUI handling of ODF, e.g. Tabbed (bug 33173) or Multi-document (bug 37134) =-ref-= [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/api/system.windows.controls.ribbon.ribbon?view=netframework-4.8 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #52 from Telesto --- (In reply to Maxim Monastirsky from comment #51) > I didn't actually mean a study about the acceptance of a ribbon as a > concept. This is well known that some people don't like ribbons. What I > meant was to gather feedback from users who are willing to use such > interface, and actually tried to use *our implementation* on a daily basis. > My goal is to try to find out if there are any major flaws/bugs, that might > be serious enough to become blockers for the default UI switch. And > telemetry won't help here, because it can only tell how many people clicked > on the tabbed UI menu item, but not what issued did they have with that > interface, and whether they continued to use the interface despite those > issues, or just gave up and switched back to the classic one. You surely don't get feedback, until this it's default :-). It's hard to come into contact with people who do use it regularly, IMHO. I'm happy to test it tabbed mode. I personally see some issues in the aesthetic area which should be solved before a switch should be made (more or less theming related).. but should possible within 5 months; IMHO I still thing we simple set 7.1 to Tabbed to gather some feedback, and decide around RC1/2. I have seen much more problematic stuff pushed to release builds without being properly tested. In this case you easily switch to toolbar edition. So even if there is some dysfunctions, there is always a fall back --- (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #6) > No this is pragmatic--the MUFFIN Tabbed NB only looks like the MS Ribbon UI > it does not implement that API. I'm not all know in feature richness of the Ribbon interface. So what are you exactly pointing too? Live Preview? Or also other things? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 135501] Change the default UI
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135501 --- Comment #51 from Maxim Monastirsky --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #0) > * Do we want to remove some UI variants, and if so which? At least the non-NB single toolbar mode can be removed, see comments in Bug 125040. Also in Bug 124835 there was a discussion about how the sidebar mode is supposed to work, and I think that might be a candidate for removal too. As for the other NB variants, we don't have to remove anything right now, as we can just move some under experimental. One more thing that I would like to point out is that "tabbed compact" isn't really a different design, rather just a variation of "tabbed" made as a single line of buttons, to save some vertical space. So even if we decide to go with "tabbed", it still might make sense to keep also "tabbed compact". And especially as our notebookbar can't be collapsed, unlike MS Office's ribbon. (In reply to Telesto from comment #46) > (In reply to Maxim Monastirsky from comment #41) > > What I really missing from this discussion are *facts*. A major change like > > this shouldn't be done without a serious study. We should collect feedback > > from users who really tried to use the other UI variants on a daily basis, > > and take a decision based on that. So arguments like "ribbon is the default > > on windows, therefore we should use it too" don't count. When we set > > something as default, we should be confident that at least it will allow > > users to get their job done. > > Such a study is time consuming and expensive. And results will be hard to > asses. I assume Microsoft did spend some money on research on the acceptance > of the ribbon or the start menu of "Windows 8'. They transition did have > some bumps and there were some tweaks.. but the didn't go back to before. I didn't actually mean a study about the acceptance of a ribbon as a concept. This is well known that some people don't like ribbons. What I meant was to gather feedback from users who are willing to use such interface, and actually tried to use *our implementation* on a daily basis. My goal is to try to find out if there are any major flaws/bugs, that might be serious enough to become blockers for the default UI switch. And telemetry won't help here, because it can only tell how many people clicked on the tabbed UI menu item, but not what issued did they have with that interface, and whether they continued to use the interface despite those issues, or just gave up and switched back to the classic one. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
