[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

Eyal Rozenberg  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14
   ||9271

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

--- Comment #18 from Eyal Rozenberg  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #17)
> Don't remember the state in 23018 but with v7.3 at least it is possible to
> make one CS inherent from another by drag and drop at the Stylist. 

But that's not what this bug is about. It's about applying more than one
character style to the same piece of text, not about styles inheriting from
each other.

See your own comment here:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127754#c2

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

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--- Comment #17 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Don't remember the state in 23018 but with v7.3 at least it is possible to make
one CS inherent from another by drag and drop at the Stylist. We also have the
"Inherit from" field in the Organizer tab. And the nested CS takes attributes
from the parent. So all works similar to PS. Regina, resolve WFM or am I
missing a point?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13
   ||8305

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13
   ||6135

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||mroden...@yahoo.co.uk

--- Comment #16 from Heiko Tietze  ---
*** Bug 128553 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12
   ||8883

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||eyal...@technion.ac.il

--- Comment #15 from Heiko Tietze  ---
*** Bug 127754 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10
   ||6556

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11
   ||8781

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

--- Comment #14 from Mike Kaganski  ---
I like Csongor's proposal very much!

One thing though. The character's "Default Style" itself doesn't define
anything at all. There are no settings there IIUC. And it is not always there
at the bottom of the character properties hierarchy. Actually,
Character-related settings of *Paragraph properties* are there, and those
properties are what is being overridden by higher layers. And the Paragraph
properties consist (from top to bottom in terms of Csongor's proposal) of
paragraph's Manual formatting, and Paragraph style.

The ability to *disable* (uncheck) some direct formatting or styles looks like
an extension to ODF (at least I don't know how to disable that at the XML
level). I'd suppose that deleting makes sense, an well as dragging style to
reorder, and possibly dragging styles from style pane if they can be shown
simultaneously. Possibly the default character style still makes sense as a
(greyed out) single-line entry right above the Paragraph properties, to make it
consistent when the last applied non-default character style gets removed, that
one would still stay (instead of appearing only in that case).

Possibly it also makes sense to delete direct formatting of paragraph's
character-related settings from the character settings explorer. That would
make it more universal. And of course, being able to launch the related style's
editor dialog is something intuitive.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

--- Comment #13 from Thomas Lendo  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #12)
> (In reply to Thomas Lendo from comment #8)
> > The filter options 'Preview...', 'List used styles...' and the filter
> > drop-down list is also important for character styles - or work the filters
> > for both panels at once? If yes then the position can be enhanced to show
> > that.
> Correct, missed that. So we better group paragraph and character together as
> both are toggled with the kind of style anyway. And to clean up the UI I
> would think about moving the checkboxed options from paragraph styles into a
> context menu.
But context menus are not very accessible/visible -- neither for normal users
nor for impaired users.

> > Is it desired to show how styles are nested? A new filter checkbox 'Show
> > nested styles' can show only nested styles in a hierarchical way to see
> > which is on top of what style.
> You mean in the character styles list?
Yes, I mean character styles. But when paragraph and character styles will
share the same checkboxes, then no new checkbox is needed as paragraph styles
already include a checkbox for hierarchical view.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

--- Comment #11 from cson...@halmai.hu ---
Created attachment 141973
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=141973=edit
Explaining Cascaded Character Styles via Style Explorer

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

--- Comment #10 from cson...@halmai.hu ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #9)
> Curious about Csongor's opinion.

Thanks, Heiko. :)

Before going into further details, I would like to clarify for the readers like
me, who do not read carefully at first, that we are talking about the character
styles only, not the paragraph and other styles.  

Well. There are some bullet points to agree/disagree with.

1. 
I agree that having the option to build a hierarchy of character styles is a
great thing. We should not get rid of it, even if most of the users don't use
it. One source of the power of LO is that it is extremely feature-rich. I would
like to keep this and not make it "more streamlined" or "simpler" in terms of
the feature set, like many "modern" software does. (The easiness of usage,
however, is a different thing, I admit.) So let's keep features and based on
this, let's figure out how to make it easy to use. 

2.
I agree that the UI for such complex document structures is not easy.

3. 
How should we indicate what styles are turned on at the actual character?

I re-read my proposal in
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=112852#c9. The illustration
after that comment may be not the best but I still think that such a tool could
explain well how the rules with higher importance override the rules of lower
importance. The strike-through notation in the Developer Tools of the modern
browser, I think, does this job very well. In order to make my earlier proposal
easier to understand, I created a new illustration with a lot of verbal
explanation within the document. Please, check it.

Some keywords and highlights from the attachment so that it can be indexed: 
- applying more character styles (current and desired behaviour)
- cascade
- description of how the Style Explorer should work
- greyed out and strike-through
- toggling rules
- drag-and-drop reordering of the character styles
- "Select Similar", "Select Similar to Left" and "Select Similar to Right"
toolbar buttons
- "Extend Selection to Neighbourhood", "Extend Selection to Left Neighbourhood"
and "Extend Selection to Right Neighbourhood" toolbar buttons

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||cson...@halmai.hu

--- Comment #9 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Curious about Csongor's opinion.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

--- Comment #8 from Thomas Lendo  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #7)
> supposed way for expert users who need a lot of paragraph styles at once is
> to collapse the character styles panel. We could also discuss to collapse
> the inspector by default.
The possibility to collapse paragraph/character/inspector panel (which should
also persistent across sessions) is an important feature for Eves.

The filter options 'Preview...', 'List used styles...' and the filter drop-down
list is also important for character styles - or work the filters for both
panels at once? If yes then the position can be enhanced to show that.

Is it desired to show how styles are nested? A new filter checkbox 'Show nested
styles' can show only nested styles in a hierarchical way to see which is on
top of what style.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

--- Comment #7 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Thomas Lendo from comment #6)
> But with any style change you have to do an additional mouse
> click. That's bad for users that heavily use styles.

Like today, the selection changes with the context. So if you are in a table
you get table styles selected. So no additional click needed.

> Also I think the small paragraph and character boxes are negative for heavy
> style users. 

True, we loose some space even taking into account that mockups are not
proportional and the UI may have more space on average screens. We focus on the
Benjamin users, which definitely benefit from the combination. And the supposed
way for expert users who need a lot of paragraph styles at once is to collapse
the character styles panel. We could also discuss to collapse the inspector by
default.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

--- Comment #6 from Thomas Lendo  ---
Very nice mockup.

I see the benefit of a list box instead of buttons for all kind of styles
(paragaph, character, list ...). For the average users it's more intuitive and
clear. But with any style change you have to do an additional mouse click.
That's bad for users that heavily use styles.

Also I think the small paragraph and character boxes are negative for heavy
style users. Is this really so much better for the average users? Will they
better understand the difference between paragraph and character styles, when
they are arranged/visible at one sidebar deck at once instead how it is now?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

--- Comment #5 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Created attachment 141502
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=141502=edit
Mockup for nested styles including comments

Basically, the idea is to provide a multi-selection in the character styles
list (same idea was suggested back in OOO times).

Such a modification involves questions on single/double click activation of
styles (bug 94427), requires a way to indicate overridden properties (done per
style inspector, see bug 112852), which in turn is relevant for bug 90646. And
also how paragraph styles are filtered (bug 114886, bug 69551). See comments in
the mockup for details.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bz.apache.org/ooo/s
   ||how_bug.cgi?id=101161

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

Thomas Lendo  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl,
   ||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu

--- Comment #4 from Thomas Lendo  ---
Nested character styles are really cool. I also often wished that such feature
is available in LibO. Good to hear that it's possible and that's also possible
with buttons in the "Formatting (styles)" toolbar. But how long?

How should nested styles be handled in the UI? LibO isn't prepared for this.
How should nested styles (=several styles at once) be shown in the Styles
sidebar? Or in the menu or context menu? There, character styles are now
implemented as radio buttons (only one can be selected) which must be changed
to checkboxes (more than one can be selected at once).

And what's with the default character style? Does it override all nested
character styles or only the "last/topmost" one?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

Thomas Lendo  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||thomas.le...@gmail.com
   Hardware|x86-64 (AMD64)  |All
 Blocks|107326  |108014


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107326
[Bug 107326] [META] Writer style bugs and enhancements
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108014
[Bug 108014] [META] Writer character style bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

--- Comment #3 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Kenneth Hanson from comment #2)
> I strongly disagree. The ability to nest character styles is extremely
> important for complex documents. It's the only sane way to represent
> semantic or formatting considerations that are orthogonal to each other.

Can we find a good example? Something like but better than: 

* in-text citation with highlighted words.

"And she said:Though shalt NEVER format directly!, and went
away." ( and  as html-like illustration of character style 'cite' and
'emphasis'). 
In the example you get NEVER in italic from cite plus bold from emphasis but I
think a direct formatting would be fine here just for simplicity of the UI. 

When you present Change and Apply (or Add) I doubt that users understand that.
Visualization could be done via tree where the second style is a children of
the first (still not easy to understand).

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

--- Comment #2 from Kenneth Hanson  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #1)
> The request is solely technically driven and I recommend to not do that.
> ...
> If we need to support these nested styles (my suggestion would be to remove 
> them from the file format), the easter-eggy shift+click thing is good enough.

I strongly disagree. The ability to nest character styles is extremely
important for complex documents. It's the only sane way to represent semantic
or formatting considerations that are orthogonal to each other.

Style support is a widely touted feature of LO (and rightly so), but these
kinds of limitations (can't nest character styles, can't inherit page styles,
graphic styles not available in Writer, character styles not available in
Impress...) prevents it from realizing its potential.

Undocumented features are just as bad as not having the feature at all, unless
you have unlimited time to tinker. I was extremely excited to learn that this
might already work, because if true it's one less reason that I might need to
use LaTeX. I never would have discovered it if not for Regina's exploration.

Personally, I think a second "apply" button that nests rather than replaces
existing styles would be an unobtrusive way to make nesting available. At the
very least, the double-click feature should be confirmed and added to the help
text.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10
   ||8697
 Blocks||107326


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107326
[Bug 107326] [META] Writer style bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311

--- Comment #1 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Created attachment 139970
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=139970=edit
Illustration of the issue

"Suddenly..sidewalk" are formatted with Strong Emphasis, "disappeared" in the
middle with additional Emphasis using shift+click and "the trash... in the"
below as well in Emphasis but without shift, meaning it's replaced.


The request is solely technically driven and I recommend to not do that. The
redesign complicates the UI significantly with benefit in only a very few
situations but serious disadvantage for most users.

If we need to support these nested styles (my suggestion would be to remove
them from the file format), the easter-eggy shift+click thing is good enough.
But we should give better feedback as discussed in bug 90646, whereas I would
prefer the inspector from bug 112852 comment 10.

We should also not forget the "inconsistency" (actually I like it) mentioned on
ask.libo that the Default style that is never nested.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 115311] UI missing for nesting character styles

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Buovjaga  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval
 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org
 Ever confirmed|0   |1
 OS|Windows (All)   |All

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