[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and "Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116703

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |heiko.tietze@documentfounda
   |.freedesktop.org|tion.org
   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 Status|NEW |NEEDINFO

--- Comment #24 from Heiko Tietze  ---
We discussed the topic in the design meeting. There is no clear picture and we
have one advocates per option 0, 1, 3 (see comment 16) but three for option 4.
That is to provide only "lossy" formats under Export, in particular all raster
graphic formats. To be more precise: If a file format is permanent making the
plain save operation working on this format it belongs to the save menu. All
other formats go to export. I believe that's a description of the current state
and no action is needed. What do you think, Mike?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and "Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116703

--- Comment #23 from cson...@halmai.hu ---
This is the approach GIMP also uses. I use it on a daily basis, yet, I don't
like it. 

If you want to be absolutely correct then you need to move almost everything
from Save to Export. 

In order to put a certain file format into Save, there must be a 100% exporter
and a 100% importer for that format. That is, everything from the document must
be able to be saved into that format and everything must be possible to load
back as well.

Should a file format be in Save or Export if the importer has a known bug, say,
it doesn't load back the font spacing correctly? Say, it is planned to be fixed
in a future version but in the current version of LO, it is failing. 

Strictly speaking, it is an Export now because you cannot get this info back.
Will you move it to Save when the bug gets fixed? And will you move it back to
Export when a new bug turns out?

I think this is a very small win for a lot of frustration and a lot of
confusion for everybody, who has been using either LO or MS Office for a longer
time.

Therefore, instead of making this Export vs Save separation, I would display an
alert in the Save dialog for the formats that are not even planned to act as a
full-featured export-import format.

I would keep the Export menu for formats nobody ever wants to import from.
Example: PDF.

Example:

WARNING! This file format may not save all the details of the document.
Reloading it may suffer from data loss.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and "Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116703

--- Comment #22 from Telesto  ---
Not sure if this is the right place, but please consider to arrange save as/
export file format order (even if choose option 4)

Say the most used on top and they less used lower. I always have kind of
'search'  for they proper filter (no I don't save templates all day. No not
interested in transitional DOCX export) 

Export Slide/Page (Impress/Draw) should export to PNG/or JPG not WMF (and
export to includes PDF, which one of the reasons to merge Export and Export As,
IMHO)

Also maybe add most recently picked. 

And even more off topic (please include 'versions of' ODT) in save as
(different bug, but same area; as i'm slightly inclined to simply list older
versions in they drop down (somewhere at the bottom). Instead of picking first
odt and next version (adds additional clicks). And as long as the file picker
relatively nicely structured.. (of course ends up becoming a long file type
option list in the long term, so maybe not feasible)

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and "Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116703

--- Comment #21 from Telesto  ---
(In reply to Mihkel Tõnnov from comment #20)
> Well, there is a warning when saving as non-ODF...

And a checkbox to disable that dialog and people are really forgetful. And
export working pretty well 80% of the time, so people obviously start to ignore
those..

They highlighting bug mess on of those examples. Or style name mess and plenty
of duplicates. 

Flip-flopping around. Option 4 also fine :-). Never annoyed me

However Save as File Format  picker should get some warning that docx export
doesn't equal a 100% MSO document. Nor LibreOffice being features being 100
transposable to MSO. To page anchoring/to paragraph anchoring/ highlighting as
background c. Numerous additional page breaks.

They warning still suggesting a full native docx being generated without
applying tricks to match docx

---

FWIW: Not really seeing they point of Export and Export As though (Writer), can
both not be merged somehow?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and "Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116703

--- Comment #20 from Mihkel Tõnnov  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #16)
> Option 0:
> Keep as it is under the assumption (expert) users are familiar with the
> organization.
+0.8
My personal preference, but maybe not the best solution for general public. It
has its logic, though.

> Option 1:
> We keep only the open document formats in Save/As and move everything else
> into Export. This has been done for GIMP and it's very annoying (but clear
> to understand).
Please no D: The GIMP approach bites me in the face every time I use the damn
thing. (Even though I understand the rationale.)

> Option 2:
> SaveAs holds open document formats and MSO. Meaning html, dbf, slk, csv /
> rtf, txt / mml get moved into Export. Somewhat confusing in case of Calc
> since CSV is as important as Excel. Or in case of html when Writer is used
> as editor.
Why only MSO? And where to even draw the line after that? E.g. RTF and
(especially) CSV are used quite a lot, and presumably expected to be found from
"normal" Save dialog.

> Option 3:
> We drop Export and keep everything under SaveAs. IIRC the list of supported
> file formats can become quite large.
This would make things worse wrt perceived compatibility/completeness. Also
would necessitate some sort of comments or section titles in the list (as
Telesto mentioned).

> Option 4:
> Keep only "lossy" formats under Export. That applies to all raster graphic
> formats- loading exported data does not allow editing. For Draw html, pdf
> and svg would go to SaveAs, in case of Calc html and xml, etc. In the end,
> the function is kind of "Export to Raster Graphic".
+0.2
For average (not dumb-) user, I think this makes the most sense out of the
discussed options. Although for consistency, I think PDF should stay under
Export also in Draw. Also, "lossy" as criterion might be problematic, as e.g.
CSV is definitely "lossy" when it comes to formatting :) (Sure, there's a
warning...)

> Option 5:
> Different menu options with Save As > Open Document | Microsoft Office
> (another menu entry for other office suites)| Markup Languages (html, xml,
> svg, mml, csv) | Raster Graphics. Not sure where to put epub and PDF, maybe
> Markup, but we could drop this format since we have a dedicated command.
Can all the save/export formats really fit under a single category? Also, it
would probably take a user at least two attempts to find where e.g. CSV or RTF
or XML is under such a structure (terms like "markup language" probably aren't
understood by everyone).

(In reply to Telesto from comment #17)
> Original vision: 1 next 5 (based on MacOS Pages)
> Directly saving new documents into DOCX/DOC is unadvised and people
> shouldn't do that. This certainly doesn't work out to well. And having it
> under Save As suggests kind of full compatibility.
Well, there is a warning when saving as non-ODF...

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and "Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116703

--- Comment #19 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Hmm, have to say it is appealing to do Option #1 and follow the GIMP model.

Clean and simple--if it is not ODF it is not native!  Save-as only ODF.  Flip a
coin about SVG and CSV (various separators).

Sorry OOXML, and MS Binary are really Export formats anyway ;-)

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and "Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116703

--- Comment #18 from Thomas Lendo  ---
+1 for Option 4 or (second class) Option 3, mentioned in comment 16.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and "Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116703

--- Comment #17 from Telesto  ---
Original vision: 1 next 5 (based on MacOS Pages)
Directly saving new documents into DOCX/DOC is unadvised and people shouldn't
do that. This certainly doesn't work out to well. And having it under Save As
suggests kind of full compatibility.

However from usability perspective pain in the ass. I even search for PDF
export in the save as dialog once in a while

So opting for option 3. 
Ideally I would like some 'Export to' text to file formats where this more an
export, compared to 'save' feature. 
So say: Save as: Rich Text (.rtf) [Export Mode]

Or the list being split in sections:
- Native
* odt
* 
- MSO compabibility
* doc
* docx
- Images
* jpg
* pdf

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and "Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116703

--- Comment #16 from Heiko Tietze  ---
v7 on Linux (list depends on OS and build)

Draw
SaveAs: odg, otg, fodg
Export: x/html, pdf, svg, various raster formats

Impress
SaveAs: odp, otp, fodp, uop, various MSO Impress formats (pptx...)
Export: x/html, pdf, svg, various raster formats

Calc
SaveAs: ods,ots,fods,uos, various MSO Excel formats (xlsx...), dbf, html, slk,
csv
Export: x/html, pdf, xml, jpg, png

Writer
SaveAs: odt,ott,fodt,uot, various MSO Words formats (docx...), xml, html, rtf,
txt
Export: xhtml, pdf, epub, jpg, xml, png

Math
SaveAs: odf, mml
Export: - (only Export as PDF)

Option 0:
Keep as it is under the assumption (expert) users are familiar with the
organization.
Option 1:
We keep only the open document formats in Save/As and move everything else into
Export. This has been done for GIMP and it's very annoying (but clear to
understand).
Option 2:
SaveAs holds open document formats and MSO. Meaning html, dbf, slk, csv / rtf,
txt / mml get moved into Export. Somewhat confusing in case of Calc since CSV
is as important as Excel. Or in case of html when Writer is used as editor.
Option 3:
We drop Export and keep everything under SaveAs. IIRC the list of supported
file formats can become quite large.
Option 4:
Keep only "lossy" formats under Export. That applies to all raster graphic
formats- loading exported data does not allow editing. For Draw html, pdf and
svg would go to SaveAs, in case of Calc html and xml, etc. In the end, the
function is kind of "Export to Raster Graphic".
Option 5:
Different menu options with Save As > Open Document | Microsoft Office (another
menu entry for other office suites)| Markup Languages (html, xml, svg, mml,
csv) | Raster Graphics. Not sure where to put epub and PDF, maybe Markup, but
we could drop this format since we have a dedicated command.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and "Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116703

Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl

--- Comment #15 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #10)
> +1 for not being an HTML editor, similar to PDF. Users would miss both.
> Compromise would be to _export_ to HTML (where we have XHTML and XML right
> now).
We know that we have users that are really happy with the HTML - for limited
functionality of course ;)
So I would not make life harder then needed, and leave this as is.

@mike: you mention HTML as example. I don't know if there are more?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and "Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

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Timur  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11
   ||8814

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and " Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116703

--- Comment #14 from Thomas Lendo  ---
We cannot be so 'clear' as GIMP is as users are used to save their documents in
different formats also from other office suites. I would say we should only
save formats we also can open/import, but then we have to save also PDFs (Bug
103947) instead of export it.

As Stuart mentioned, someone has to make a decision what we want to
(prominently) save and what is a 'second class's export and import format.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and " Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

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--- Comment #13 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #12)
> (In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #11)
> > That would mean, you will remove the entire Write/Web module?
> 
> I don't want to see HTML generated with LibreOffice (or similar tools). 
> (And no, I don't suggest to remove the filters completely.)

Yet HTML/XHTML is generated! Multiple methods... 

But Regina's concern is the functional, if neglected, Writer Web module. It
provides a Normal (onto a document page) and a Web (unlimited size) canvas
mode, as well as an HTML "source" editing mode--available to adjust content,
markup and in line style.

It is the default mode for opening a HTM/HTML/XHTML document (even roundtrip).

Like it or not we are an HTML editor, we just don't do it well.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and " Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116703

--- Comment #12 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #11)
> That would mean, you will remove the entire Write/Web module?

I don't want to see HTML generated with LibreOffice (or similar tools). 
(And no, I don't suggest to remove the filters completely.)

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--- Comment #11 from Regina Henschel  ---
That would mean, you will remove the entire Write/Web module?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 116703] Make clear distinction on differences between "Export" and " Save As", and move items in those filters accordingly

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org

--- Comment #10 from Heiko Tietze  ---
+1 for not being an HTML editor, similar to PDF. Users would miss both.
Compromise would be to _export_ to HTML (where we have XHTML and XML right
now).

PS: needsUXEval needs to get accompanied by CC'ing to ux-advice...

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