[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 87239] Inconsistent look and operation of drop-down buttons

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |tietze.he...@gmail.com
   |.freedesktop.org|
   Keywords|needsUXEval |

--- Comment #9 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Anticipating positive review, the guideline for floating widgets is here
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Selection#Appearance. I'd suggest to
make this issue a meta ticket for those controls that don't behave as defined
(and if it makes sense in the particular case).

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 87239] Inconsistent look and operation of drop-down buttons

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239

--- Comment #8 from Maxim Monastirsky  ---
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #7)
> A changing title label like this might be the only exception that might be
> worth keeping a title label for, but really how useful is it to know the
> number of undo or redo steps that you are going to make. That changing label
> could easily be placed below the undo/redo listbox as that information is
> secondary to the listbox details.
Yes, that in fact how it was in OOo (and still in AOO). Just for a reference,
here are kendy's commits which introduced those titles -
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/log/?qt=grep=toolbar-decorations

> I'm assuming you are for disabling dragging here as well.
True.

> So for me this would be the guidelines:
> 
> 1. Never have title label bar as icon and tooltip already cover this.
> 
> 2. If it is to be dragged have draggable grip.
> 
> 3. If the contextual/changing label is needed in the widget, have it below
> the primary control as users eyes will be looking downwards when using the
> primary control and not upwards where the current title label bar is.
OK, I can agree with that. As long as the color pickers are draggable I'm
happy.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 87239] Inconsistent look and operation of drop-down buttons

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239

--- Comment #7 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to Maxim Monastirsky from comment #6)
> I disagree. The floating functionality might be limited, yet it proved to be
> useful for some users, e.g. Bug 32676, Bug 106762, Bug 114935. And obviously
> the functionality can be improved if we want. Also dragging the color picker
> was possible since forever in LO and OOo, and I'm against breaking it.

Then i suggest changing the title label to draggable grip, to unify it with the
shapes split button.

> 1. Icons are rarely a good indication (IMHO). Even for a good fitting icon,
> I doubt that one that never used the software before, will know for sure
> what the button does w/o looking at the tooltip, or actually trying to use
> the button. Icons can help you find the button you need, *after* you
> remember what that icon means.

For someone new to LO and doesnt know the buttons available in the toolbar or
someone trying out an new icon theme, icons need to be gotten used to, but
icons are the best indication of functionality.

> 2. The tooltip isn't visible by default, and it shows with a delay after
> hovering the button. It also won't show after the popup is already opened.

Tooltips fall in second for indication for users who arent familiar with the
button layout and icons.

> 3. The text title is in fact the title bar of the popup window, and is what
> makes it possible to drag it. It isn't different from a title bar of a
> floating toolbar (e.g. have the same size and font), except that it have a
> different background color, to blend nicely with the toolbar button when
> connected. And that "title bar look" is what gives the users a clue that it
> can be in fact dragged away. It should be possible to change that to a
> graphic grip, like we have now for the shapes popup, but I doubt such a
> small dragging area will look good for a big popup like the color picker
> currently is.

Yes i finally get it that it is a title label bar now and still believe the
draggable grip is the best option for the color pickers.

> 4. At least for the undo/redo popups, the title area is used to display the
> count of actions to undo/redo. Having similar titles for other popups, even
> if less useful, just adds consistency to the UI, not otherwise.

A changing title label like this might be the only exception that might be
worth keeping a title label for, but really how useful is it to know the number
of undo or redo steps that you are going to make. That changing label could
easily be placed below the undo/redo listbox as that information is secondary
to the listbox details. I'm assuming you are for disabling dragging here as
well.

> Yes, dragging should be disabled (as it won't be useful to have this popup
> floating, as it isn't an attribute like a color which might be useful to
> apply to other objects in turn), but the title should stay.

In MS Word, the title label for inserting a table changes to show the table
dimension, but we already have that displayed as a tooltip while dragging the
mouse, so i'm still for removing it.

So for me this would be the guidelines:

1. Never have title label bar as icon and tooltip already cover this.

2. If it is to be dragged have draggable grip.

3. If the contextual/changing label is needed in the widget, have it below the
primary control as users eyes will be looking downwards when using the primary
control and not upwards where the current title label bar is.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 87239] Inconsistent look and operation of drop-down buttons

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239

--- Comment #6 from Maxim Monastirsky  ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #0)
> Pressing arrow next to "Bullets On/Off" (or "Numbering On/Off") gives
> drop-down without header/double lines, not draggable, no borders. Items have
> flat appearance with thin black border on hover.
That widget tries to emulate a menu to some extent, e.g. it has a menu
background, and the "More" item at the bottom has a menu-like highlighting when
hovered. But that emulation isn't good enough (e.g. no margins), and the "black
border on hover" indeed doesn't fit that well. I guess we should fix the
theming there to be more menu-like.

(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #5)
> (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #0)
> > Pressing arrow next to "Font Color"/"Highlighting" toolbar button brings the
> > drop-down panel that has a caption, that can be used for dragging. When
> > dragged, it becomes a floating window. The drop-down (not draggged) stays on
> > screen while the main application window is resized/moved.
> 
> Caption should be removed (tooltip and icon already tell you what will popup
> from the spit buttons) and dragging should be disabled as there is no means
> to dock it like the sidebar or toolbars, making its floating functionality
> very limited.
I disagree. The floating functionality might be limited, yet it proved to be
useful for some users, e.g. Bug 32676, Bug 106762, Bug 114935. And obviously
the functionality can be improved if we want. Also dragging the color picker
was possible since forever in LO and OOo, and I'm against breaking it.

The title might be duplicating the icon/tooltip, but:

1. Icons are rarely a good indication (IMHO). Even for a good fitting icon, I
doubt that one that never used the software before, will know for sure what the
button does w/o looking at the tooltip, or actually trying to use the button.
Icons can help you find the button you need, *after* you remember what that
icon means.

2. The tooltip isn't visible by default, and it shows with a delay after
hovering the button. It also won't show after the popup is already opened.

3. The text title is in fact the title bar of the popup window, and is what
makes it possible to drag it. It isn't different from a title bar of a floating
toolbar (e.g. have the same size and font), except that it have a different
background color, to blend nicely with the toolbar button when connected. And
that "title bar look" is what gives the users a clue that it can be in fact
dragged away. It should be possible to change that to a graphic grip, like we
have now for the shapes popup, but I doubt such a small dragging area will look
good for a big popup like the color picker currently is.

4. At least for the undo/redo popups, the title area is used to display the
count of actions to undo/redo. Having similar titles for other popups, even if
less useful, just adds consistency to the UI, not otherwise.

> > Pressing arrow next to "Insert Table" button gives a drop-down with caption;
> > it behaves like draggable, but on release it disappears. Trying to
> > resize/move main app window hides drop-down (as expected).
> 
> Caption should be removed (tooltip and icon already tell you what will
> popup) and dragging should be disabled as it provides no useful
> functionality.
Yes, dragging should be disabled (as it won't be useful to have this popup
floating, as it isn't an attribute like a color which might be useful to apply
to other objects in turn), but the title should stay.

> > Pressing arrow next to "Line Spacing" (recent versions) gives not draggable
> > drop-down with some border. Items look like 3D buttons on hover. Trying to
> > resize/move main app window hides drop-down (as expected).
> 
> 3D buttons when hovering isnt good as these should be standard toggle
> buttons or checkboxes (bug 113633).
I'll add a comment there.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 87239] Inconsistent look and operation of drop-down buttons

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||philip...@hotmail.com
 Blocks|108816  |103429

--- Comment #5 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #0)
> Pressing arrow next to "Font Color"/"Highlighting" toolbar button brings the
> drop-down panel that has a caption, that can be used for dragging. When
> dragged, it becomes a floating window. The drop-down (not draggged) stays on
> screen while the main application window is resized/moved.

Caption should be removed (tooltip and icon already tell you what will popup
from the spit buttons) and dragging should be disabled as there is no means to
dock it like the sidebar or toolbars, making its floating functionality very
limited.

> Pressing arrow next to "Insert Table" button gives a drop-down with caption;
> it behaves like draggable, but on release it disappears. Trying to
> resize/move main app window hides drop-down (as expected).

Caption should be removed (tooltip and icon already tell you what will popup)
and dragging should be disabled as it provides no useful functionality.

> Pressing arrow next to "Bullets On/Off" (or "Numbering On/Off") gives
> drop-down without header/double lines, not draggable, no borders. Items have
> flat appearance with thin black border on hover. Trying to resize/move main
> app window hides drop-down (as expected).

Didnt get what "without header/double lines" or "no borders" meant. Flat
appearance is important as its showing a preview of how it looks on a flat
page.

> Pressing arrow next to "Line Spacing" (recent versions) gives not draggable
> drop-down with some border. Items look like 3D buttons on hover. Trying to
> resize/move main app window hides drop-down (as expected).

3D buttons when hovering isnt good as these should be standard toggle buttons
or checkboxes (bug 113633).

> Pressing arrow next to "Insert Field"/"Paste" gives not draggable drop-down
> with some border. Items look like menu items (standard OS menu look;
> system-defined highlight color, etc). Trying to resize/move main app window
> hides drop-down (as expected).

Acts the same as other split/group buttons that pull out menu items like new,
open and save buttons.


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=103429
[Bug 103429] [META] Split and group buttons in toolbar and sidebar bugs and
enhancements
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108816
[Bug 108816] [META] Writer toolbar bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 87239] Inconsistent look and operation of drop-down buttons

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11
   ||5275

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 87239] Inconsistent look and operation of drop-down buttons

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239

Xisco Faulí  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||xiscofa...@libreoffice.org
Version|4.4.0.1 rc  |3.3.0 release

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 87239] Inconsistent look and operation of drop-down buttons

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks|81475   |


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81475
[Bug 81475] [META] Revamp of Writer toolbars in 4.4+
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 87239] Inconsistent look and operation of drop-down buttons

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||108816


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108816
[Bug 108816] [META] Writer toolbar bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 87239] Inconsistent look and operation of drop-down buttons

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

  Component|LibreOffice |UI

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 87239] Inconsistent look and operation of drop-down buttons

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval
   Priority|low |medium
   Severity|trivial |minor

--- Comment #3 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Obviously we need a guideline. 

Adjusting the importance to medium/minor - user experience is not trivial.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 87239] Inconsistent look and operation of drop-down buttons

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239

Jean Spiteri beimaginativeegr...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 CC||beimaginativeegroup@gmail.c
   ||om
Version|3.3.0 release   |4.4.0.1 rc
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #1 from Jean Spiteri beimaginativeegr...@gmail.com ---
This is definitely valid. Setting as NEW and enhancement.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 87239] Inconsistent look and operation of drop-down buttons

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239

V Stuart Foote vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Priority|lowest  |low
 CC||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu
 Blocks||81475
 OS|Windows (All)   |All

--- Comment #2 from V Stuart Foote vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu ---
Confirming issues as identified on Windows 7 sp1, 64-bit en-US with
Version: 4.5.0.0.alpha0+
Build ID: aeeff83595a176805d74ad4e35d946eb6a8e1b25
TinderBox: Win-x86@62-TDF, Branch:MASTER, Time: 2014-12-20_00:13:27
Locale: en_US

@Mike, we'll assume you were commenting on recent builds, and not 3.3.0--if
that is not the case, please identify any specifics in the older builds.

Each of the issues raised is currently valid. 

With the mix of UI widgets available to various developers to implement buttons
and menus in the GUI the function can end up different as you note. Yet
maintaining consistency in the UI is important to the user experience so these
and similar are valid issues. 

Unfortunately very subtle differences in the GUI may have considerable
divergence in the underlying code. Especially legacy vs. newer UI based items.
I think that is the case here. And correcting them could require considerable
rework, no telling when it will be addressed.

For now adding to meta bug 81475, but we Design/UX team may need to start
keeping track of them specifically.

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