[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Samuel Mehrbrodt (allotropia)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||samuel.mehrbrodt@allotropia
   ||.de
 Resolution|WORKSFORME  |FIXED

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

--- Comment #34 from Commit Notification 
 ---
Samuel Mehrbrodt committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "libreoffice-7-3":

https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/9237cce9ac9d339f179585f722a8ef0e88be64e3

tdf#99027 Set default table border width to 0.5pt

It will be available in 7.3.0.0.beta2.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Commit Notification  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Whiteboard|target:6.0.0 target:7.4.0   |target:6.0.0 target:7.4.0
   ||target:7.3.0.0.beta2

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

--- Comment #33 from Commit Notification 
 ---
Samuel Mehrbrodt committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/c84ec0b1debb9b72f05ffc1d669608afc454cec2

tdf#99027 Set default table border width to 0.5pt

It will be available in 7.4.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
https://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Commit Notification  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Whiteboard|target:6.0.0|target:6.0.0 target:7.4.0

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |WORKSFORME

--- Comment #32 from Heiko Tietze  ---
The "Default" border line is 0.5pt - we updated the TS some time ago and might
have fixed it back then.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

--- Comment #31 from Iwan S. Tahari  ---
LibreOffice Impress 7.0 beta1+ also has had this issue. Default Table Border
width is too thin (0.05 pt) using border toolbar. Making this invisible when
printed.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Buovjaga  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEEDINFO|NEW

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Ahmad Haris  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |NEEDINFO

--- Comment #30 from Ahmad Haris  ---
It's seem also happen with Calc. But if in Calc you got 0.05pt when using
border toolbar and got 0.75 when using Format - Cell menu.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |rayk...@gmail.com
   |.freedesktop.org|

--- Comment #22 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
Can anyone think of any other places this needs to be fixed? The only thing
that comes to my mind is that if a table has border disabled and they open the
table properties dialog's borders tab, the width field is at 0.05pt.

Tried altering the spinbox id from linewidthmf:0.00pt to linewidthmf:0.50pt,
but it would then appear as 9.0050pt in the dialog. Also using
linewidthmf:0.01pt would turn into 1.001pt.

Jim can you have a look at this?

https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/cui/uiconfig/ui/borderpage.ui
https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/cui/source/tabpages/border.cxx

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Commit Notification  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Whiteboard||target:6.0.0

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

--- Comment #21 from Commit Notification 
 ---
Yousuf Philips committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=bab20c21288ace0791cf4f43bc646d88c8712e8a

tdf#99027 Use 0.5pt border size with toolbar control

It will be available in 6.0.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

--- Comment #19 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #18)
> I would choose one that is visible with printing, and still nicely thin on
> the screen. Be it 0.5 or 1.0 pt - fine for me.

So we are going with 0.5pt, as will be used it in the default table style (bug
107554), common default width used in other word processors, and it was the
second listbox option found in LO 3.3.

Use 0.5pt with the border toolbar control
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/44369

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||107554


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107554
[Bug 107554] New table 'Default Style'
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Version|5.1.1.3 release |unspecified
   Severity|normal  |enhancement

--- Comment #18 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #17)
> @Cor, @Regina, @Sophie: Any recommendations on what you think the default
> table borders should be.

I would choose one that is visible with printing, and still nicely thin on the
screen. Be it 0.5 or 1.0 pt - fine for me.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl,
   ||gautier.sop...@gmail.com,
   ||rb.hensc...@t-online.de

--- Comment #17 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
@Cor, @Regina, @Sophie: Any recommendations on what you think the default table
borders should be.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

--- Comment #16 from andreas_k  ---
+1 for 1.0pt for default as the border is thick users will use them only when
really needed and maybe make the padding larger so I am for 1.0pt as default.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

--- Comment #15 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to andreas_k from comment #13)
> LaTeX: 
> The default thicknes is 0.08 em (= 1.0 pt) for \toprule and \bottomrule and
> 0.05 em (= 0.6 pt) for \midrule.

Well we need a single default thickness for when borders are turned on, so i
guess LaTeX is recommending 1.0pt.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

--- Comment #14 from andreas_k  ---
Created attachment 133220
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=133220=edit
Border Overview

I'll make some tests about border thickness I have 3 test scenarios
1. Look good on the printout and after scanning
2. Look good on the screen when export as pdf
3. Look good on the screen in LibreOffice

attached you have 3 pages 1st is the exported pdf, 2nd is the scann and 3rd a
screenshot from the screen.

my result is

1 pt Header row and Total row thickness
 + cause it look thicker on the screen LO and the print show also the
separation
 + LaTeX use 1pt and other programms
 + work fine not only for line tables also for background colored table

0,25pt for the other borders
 + There is a visual difference between 1pt and 0,25pt
 + 0,05pt could be a problem on older printers or ink jet printing
 + 0,50pt is the difference between header not that much

If you need I have additional documents.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

andreas_k  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||kain...@gmail.com

--- Comment #13 from andreas_k  ---
LaTeX: 
The default thicknes is 0.08 em (= 1.0 pt) for \toprule and \bottomrule and
0.05 em (= 0.6 pt) for \midrule.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||107701


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107701
[Bug 107701] [META] Table border bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Telesto  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks|103100  |107707


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=103100
[Bug 103100] [META] Writer table bugs and enhancements
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107707
[Bug 107707] [META] Writer table enhancements requests
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Buovjaga  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||lili...@gmail.com

--- Comment #12 from Buovjaga  ---
*** Bug 83427 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Buovjaga  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53
   ||011

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Roeland  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||59284


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=59284
[Bug 59284] [META] Cell border related issues (Make it easier to apply borders
to cells)
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79
   ||787

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

  Component|LibreOffice |Writer

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

--- Comment #10 from Nicolas Mailhot  ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #7)

> 2pt looks horrible visually on the rendered page, so i can only guess how it
> would look on a printed page.

Rendered is misleading, LO rounds up to the nearest pixel multiple. Since a lot
of screens are still stuck in Windows 96dpi hell that tends to exaggerate
thickness.

The *actual* line width on a high-dpi medium such as a laser printout is very
very very thin for 0,05pt (and if your printer's ink is almost used up, too
thin to appear the right color). 1pt is about right (similar width as 11pt sans
serif letter stems). 2 pt starts to be heavy

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

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--- Comment #9 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
(In reply to Jean-Francois Nifenecker from comment #8)
> BTW, will table styles propose a hierarchy/inheritance?

Yes table styles will support inheritance as it is part of the ODF standard.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

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--- Comment #8 from Jean-Francois Nifenecker 
 ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #7)

> 
> Once table styles are done, users will be able to modify the default in the
> default template.

BTW, will table styles propose a hierarchy/inheritance? I deeply miss page
styles inheritance and I would very much like that such a drawback doesn't
affect the newer table styles functionality.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Yousuf (Jay) Philips  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsDevEval, topicUI
 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 CC||philip...@hotmail.com
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #7 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
So lets see what the default is with other apps.

0.5pt - MS Word, WPS/Kingsoft Writer, Abiword
1pt - Google Docs, WordPerfect
2pt - Calligra Words

2pt looks horrible visually on the rendered page, so i can only guess how it
would look on a printed page. At 100% on my 1600x900 resolution, i couldnt see
a rendering difference in LO between 0.05pt, 0.25pt, 0.5pt or 1pt and at 200%
there was no difference between 0.05pt, 0.25pt, 0.5pt. So i think using 0.25pt,
0.5pt or 1pt would be a good default and it should be decided based on how it
looks when printed and what values we expect users to change the border to. I
dont have a printer, so i'll leave it up to those with a printer to decide. :D

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #2)
> The better solution
> is to have a user-definable setting which defaults to 0.1pt or 0.2pt.

Once table styles are done, users will be able to modify the default in the
default template.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

--- Comment #6 from Nicolas Mailhot  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #5)

> Using the device minimum setting as default is more commonly useful for
> composing tables where the border width is only providing a visual que to
> cell content.

And there is already a setting in LO to show cell border shadows when creating
tables with no border. It's not on by default (which is not smart, competition
has it on by default), but it exists.

> Anything more than device minimum becomes a style

Well it *is* a formatting setting so it should be useful as a setting, not
"let's pick the worst default so everyone is angry and gets to change it". I
defy you to find real-world documents with .05pt table borders. Except as art
experiment or LO-produced mistakes.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

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V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu

--- Comment #5 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Sorry don't see any issue with the minimal "hairline" value used as default
when tables are created. It is certainly not "useless".

On creation and during editing table border style is fully configurable from
the Table Properties dialog found on the Table menu and the Table toolbar. 

Using the device minimum setting as default is more commonly useful for
composing tables where the border width is only providing a visual que to cell
content. Anything more than device minimum becomes a style best applied from
the dialog to change from default. In other words the default is correct and
useful as is.

Since its setting to .05pt is not a valid value--perhaps it would be less
confusing if actually relabeled "hairline" or "minimal" on the dropdown
list--beyond that see no no reason to change the UI, or the defaults.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

--- Comment #4 from Michael Stahl  ---
i believe the 0.05pt width is intended to be a "hairline" that is always 1
device pixel "thick".

there might be bugs in the handling of that, see for example bug 40289

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

--- Comment #3 from Nicolas Mailhot  ---
Default table border width should be what users expect, ie the usual border
width of a table in documents, without strange unusual air-thin styling. Around
1pt or so I think.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

--- Comment #2 from Heiko Tietze  ---
The minimum printable width depends on the resolution, and 0.05pt is somewhat
about 1200dpi. If we change the default to let's say 0.1pt, it would still
require a good printer (setting) of 600dpi. The better solution is to have a
user-definable setting which defaults to 0.1pt or 0.2pt. And we should consider
what users actually intend with hairlines - the minimum possible size? Is so,
it could mean to adopt the value according the printer setting. Sounds weird to
me, however ;-)

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 99027] [FORMATTING] Default table border width is useless

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99027

Buovjaga  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org,
   ||todven...@suomi24.fi
  Component|Writer  |ux-advise

--- Comment #1 from Buovjaga  ---
UX: should the default be changed?

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