Re: Solutions to help organisations mirror their antisocial media posts to mastodon?

[Yuchen Pei]

On 25 December 2023 19:15:23 GMT+11:00, Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss 
 wrote:
>I have been using fediverse for a number of years, so maybe to address a few 
>points here:
>
>1. To me, the purpose of a bot account is to usually facilitate the sharing of 
>say a blog post to the Fediverse services. However those posts still need 
>interaction.
>
>You can follow my blog via activity pub, but if you reply I can see that reply 
>from my account and reply. Surely this works equally if the fsf make a post, I 
>reply and someone then interacts with my post, esp if asking a question or 
>just saying 'good work' to the latest video for example.
>
>The interactions on Mastodon for example are far better than what I 
>experienced on main stream social media.
>
>I am not sure where the term 'anti social media' has come from, federated 
>services are still social media, just built on a more decentralized, privacy 
>friendly model.
>
>"but a bridge/client on mastodon to xitter should simply be able to allow users
>
>to subscribe to any xitter accounts they like, get their posts,
>comment/boost them etc without filtering/promotion by xitter."
>
>From what I can gather looking at Mastodon posts about X, is that it is a 
>toxic , far right cesspit,

Not really. There are plenty of people with reasonable things to say on xitter 
who for whatever reason stayed there.

> so being able to follow posts on there could be controversial, Meta has plans 
> for Threads to federate, however the opinion on the fediverse is do we want 
> to give Meta access to our data, posts which so if this does happen Threads 
> could find it can only interact with a few instances OR is de federated fully.
>
>If you are going to join the fediverse, then maybe one needs to be on there 
>and interact with people and followers.
>
>On the subject of what is happening, there are people stuck on mainstream 
>platforms as this is where their followers are, but as Twitter and now 
>Substack are seen as very toxic people are trying to leave.
>
>For most people this is probably easy for people who rely on social media to 
>promote their (source of income) , they risk losing (and do lose) a huge chunk 
>of income if they leave, so they have to stay on toxic platforms where they 
>don't feel safe. They are really stuck.
>
>There does seem to be a need to address this.
>
>Paul
>
>>>>> Fediverse doesn't seem to like bots and mirrorring accounts much, and
>>>>> this is what this creates.  I don't like much that it gives Xitter more
>>>>> visibility and power,
>>>> How does it give Xitter more visibility and power?
>>> Their power to filter/promote and thus influence gets extended further,
>>> onto the Fediverse.
>> Hold on a moment. AFAIK if you check a xitter account on nitter, or
>> follow multiple xitter accounts through Squawker, you get a timeline
>> which is a anti-chronological list of posts by these accounts with no
>> dodgy algorithm. I don't know what it is like on xitter itself, but a
>> bridge/client on mastodon to xitter should simply be able to allow users
>> to subscribe to any xitter accounts they like, get their posts,
>> comment/boost them etc without filtering/promotion by xitter.
>> 
>>> [... 4 lines elided]
>> Best,
>> Yuchen
>> 
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Re: Solutions to help organisations mirror their antisocial media posts to mastodon?

[Yuchen Pei]

On Mon 2023-12-04 22:10:05 -0300, Alexandre Oliva wrote:

> On Nov 21, 2023, Yuchen Pei  wrote:

>> On Tue 2023-11-21 22:44:10 -0300, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
>>> [... 9 lines elided]

>>> Fediverse doesn't seem to like bots and mirrorring accounts much, and
>>> this is what this creates.  I don't like much that it gives Xitter more
>>> visibility and power,

>> How does it give Xitter more visibility and power?
> Their power to filter/promote and thus influence gets extended further,
> onto the Fediverse.

Hold on a moment. AFAIK if you check a xitter account on nitter, or
follow multiple xitter accounts through Squawker, you get a timeline
which is a anti-chronological list of posts by these accounts with no
dodgy algorithm. I don't know what it is like on xitter itself, but a
bridge/client on mastodon to xitter should simply be able to allow users
to subscribe to any xitter accounts they like, get their posts,
comment/boost them etc without filtering/promotion by xitter.

> [... 4 lines elided]

Best,
Yuchen

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Re: Solutions to help organisations mirror their antisocial media posts to mastodon?

[Yuchen Pei]

On Wed 2023-11-22 02:43:00 +, Kurtis Hanna wrote:

> I'm not super well versed in these things, but perhaps you might find
> some information you are looking for at one of these websites:

> https://brid.gy/

> https://fed.brid.gy/

> https://indieweb.org/Twitter

> https://indieweb.org/POSSE

Interesting stuff, thanks.

Reminds me of a podcast ep I listened to recently, where one of the
hosts talked about hacking the activity pub api so that his blog could
appear as a mastodon account, and blogposts would appear in full in the
mastodon posts, and (the most interesting part IMO) replies will appear
as comments on the blogpost webpage:

--8<---cut here---start->8---
Linux Matters: Blogging to the Fediverse
Episode webpage: https://linuxmatters.sh/16/
Media file: https://traffic.libsyn.com/latenightlinux/LMP16.mp3
--8<---cut here---end--->8---


> [... 34 lines elided]

Best,
Yuchen

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Re: This year's Ethical Tech Giving Guide is here!

[Yuchen Pei]

Hi Devin,
On Wed 2023-11-22 17:08:54 -0500, Devin Ulibarri wrote:

> [... 6 lines elided]

> Please check out the announcement, and share the guide!

> Guide: https://fsf.org/givingguide/v14

Great! Is there a pdf/printable version?

> [... 5 lines elided]

Best,
Yuchen

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Re: Solutions to help organisations mirror their antisocial media posts to mastodon?

[Yuchen Pei]

On Tue 2023-11-21 22:44:10 -0300, Alexandre Oliva wrote:

> On Nov 20, 2023, Yuchen Pei  wrote:

>> So I wonder if there is a tool that automates toot for tweet
>> replication?

> Not exactly what you asked for, but there's https://bird.makeup/ to
> enable ActivityPub accounts to follow Xitters.  I've never used it, I
> have no clue as to how reliable it is.

Right, I am not sure how it works.

For example @berniesanders@bird.makeup has some posts, but is stale
(latest toot 6 days ago vs latest tweet 1 day ago).

@greens@bird.markup, on the other hand, does not even exist.

> [... 9 lines elided]

Best,
Yuchen

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Re: Solutions to help organisations mirror their antisocial media posts to mastodon?

[Yuchen Pei]

On Tue 2023-11-21 22:44:10 -0300, Alexandre Oliva wrote:

> [... 9 lines elided]

> Fediverse doesn't seem to like bots and mirrorring accounts much, and
> this is what this creates.  I don't like much that it gives Xitter more
> visibility and power,

How does it give Xitter more visibility and power? Assuming the mastodon
posts have no reference to Xitter, just the content of the posts and
nothing else, this won't draw people towards Xitter.

> [... 7 lines elided]

Best,
Yuchen

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Re: Solutions to help organisations mirror their antisocial media posts to mastodon?

[Yuchen Pei]

On Wed 2023-11-22 01:22:34 +, Ron Nazarov wrote:


> [... 11 lines elided]

> The FSF uses this script: https://vcs.fsf.org/?p=pdt.git;a=summary

Does this script mirror from twitter to mastodon, or does it only post
to them?

If it is the latter, then it may not be appealing to people who are
primarily using twitter, because they may not want to change how they
post to twitter.

> [... 3 lines elided]

Best,
Yuchen

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Solutions to help organisations mirror their antisocial media posts to mastodon?

[Yuchen Pei]

Hello librenauts,

Often when talking to people running organisations, they tend to cite
reach when asked why they only post on twitter, fecebook etc. However,
if they could automate mirroring their posts to mastodon they wouldn't
mind doing that. Some of these orgs even have a mastodon account, but
with barely any posts. Some of these people even despise twitter and
don't have a twitter account themselves.

So I wonder if there is a tool that automates toot for tweet
replication?

Best,
Yuchen

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Is there an android email client allowing default display of the text/plain part?

[Yuchen Pei]

Hi,

In multipart emails, the text/plain part is often superior than
text/html part. For example, some multipart emails have redirection
click tracker links in the html part, but the real links in the plain
part. Also, phishing and scam emails tend to be amusing in the plain
part because it the author did not think of doing one properly :)

In gnus it is as trivial as

(setq mm-discouraged-alternatives '("text/html" "text/richtext"))

to make text/plain the default.

The following causes a radio button to appear in a multipart email so
that the user can choose which part to display

(setq gnus-buttonized-mime-types '("multipart/alternative"))

Is there any android email client with either of these features?

Best,
Yuchen

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Re: Copyright and machine generated output at the US

[Yuchen Pei]

On Fri 2023-09-01 21:53:29 +0300, Julian Daich wrote:

> FYI
>
> The US Copyright Office is opening a public comment period around
> machine genrated content and copyright issues beginning August 30th
> https://public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2023-18624.pdf

Thanks. I noticed in the document the following paragraph - does it mean
comments will be published on 18th Oct which people can reply to until
15th Nov?

> DATES: Written comments are due no later than 11:59 p.m. Eastern Time
> on Wednesday, October 18, 2023. Written reply comments are due no
> later than 11:59 p.m. Eastern Time on Wednesday, November 15, 2023.

Also, I assume only US residents' input will be considered?

Best,
Yuchen

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Re: Fwd: We Call on FOSS Contributors to “Exit Zoom”

[Yuchen Pei]

On Tue 2023-08-15 13:19:41 -0700, Andy Tai wrote:

> We considered completely avoiding those meetings in protest. However, we
> saw the same pressure that every individual feels when presented with a
> Zoom link: you miss the chance to even participate in the dialogue, and
> in some cases, you even risk losing your job! As a compromise for our
> situation, SFC staff took an activist approach. We insist on joining
> those meetings solely by phone — allowing us to use our mostly-FOSS
> LineageOS mobile devices.

I've been joining zoom meetings from my phone. It does not take away any
of my user freedom, but there's still the privacy issue.

> This strategy had benefits and downsides. Sometimes, being the only
> participant without video sparked interesting discussion about avoidance
> of proprietary and centralized platforms was an essential part of
> advocating for ethical technology. Participants on those calls, often
> acknowledged that on a high level the issues we raised were important,
> even if they weren't ready to make a change immediately. Other times, we
> were made to feel “othered” because we weren't appearing on video and
> had no visual clues about what was happening in the meeting. That
> feeling is difficult for anyone to endure, even while we stood steadfast
> in our principles.

I can remember two more issues when joining by phone, one is you don't
see anyone raising their hands, and you don't know where you are in the
queue to speak. By from my experience if people are ok for you to join
by phone, they normally understand if you speak out of order. Another
issue is if you, like me, have a non-biblical/"Western" name it could be
hard for people to remember as they can't see the name from the screen.

Best,
Yuchen

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Re: New article: "Web Environment Integrity" is an all-out attack on the free Internet

[Yuchen Pei]

On Wed 2023-08-02 16:48:38 +0300, Lars Noodén wrote:

> On 8/2/23 16:10, Devin Ulibarri wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> In case you missed it, here is the latest DRM-related article by FSF
>> campaigns manager Greg Farough.
>>
>> https://www.defectivebydesign.org/blog/web_environment_integrity_is_an_all_out_attack_on_free_internet
> [snip]
>
> Excellent.  Increasing the new coverage of that campaign is important so
> it is great to have that post describing the situation.
>
> Some years ago, before the EFF seemed to go dormant and Mozilla became
> financially dependent on its biggest competitor, there was talk of an
> Internet Defense League to defend the free and open web:
>
> https://www.eff.org/homepage-feature/internet-defense-league-protecting-free-and-open-web
>
> Perhaps it is time to mobilize the EFF, Mozilla, Fight for the Future,
> and others to shine that old warning signal¹ across the web and
> coordinate action.  Dusting that off that old but successful campaign to
> use it again would be in and of itself news and a boost awareness of the
> current threat and what needs to  be done to address it.

That would be nice, but reading the links, internet defense league
appears more about civil rights in the conventional sense, rather than
user freedom.

Though now is definitely a good time to use this occasion to raise
awareness on how the web has been subverted over time, even without the
WEI.

Best,
Yuchen

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Speculations about WEI

[Yuchen Pei]

Hello,

If you haven't heard about WEI, please take a look at [1], and the
explainer/proposal document[2].

I wonder what would be google's strategy to adopt it and how it will
play out. The more informed we are, the better prepared we are at
defending user freedom against it.

For example, if Google enforces WEI only on its services like gmail
and youtube, then it is not much of a regression for us, as these
services are already bad for user freedom and it is possible to go
about one's life without them.

OTOH, if we take the explainer at face-value, which describes the
process as follows:
- js on webpage request attester to attest
- attester responds
- js on webpage forwards the response to web server
- web server verifies the response, with or without the attester, and
  take actions accordingly.

Whether the web server decides to serve user requests with or without
attestation, with successful or failed attestation, is up to the web
server, not the attester (an powerful 3rd party). This is different from
delegating access to a third party like cloudflare which can deny tor
users by returning 406 Not Acceptable.

Assuming the incentive for the website owner to serve the user does
not change, a trivial way for the user to get around WEI without
missing out is simply to disable javascript or adding a rule to their
blocker to block all attestation calls
(`navigator.getEnvironmentIntegrity()` in the explainer), or to block
requests to attester IP/domains.

But will website owners be more incentivised to deny access to
js-blocking users after WEI? That is, will a website that previously
was happy to serve js-blocking users stop doing so after WEI is rolled
out? I don't see how that could be the case, as long as it is up to
the website owner to decide. Conversly, if a website wants to deny
js-blocking users, they can already do so, by not serving anything
unless the user enables javascript.

So it is the usecases where one does not completely block javascript
that can be affected. Again, it is only those sites that want to deny
some users (e.g. those using adblockers) but currently do not have
the means to do so efficiently, that will be able to do so after WEI
is rolled out.

So it seems to me that for people who care about their own user freedom
and already refuse to use sites that do not respect it, the negative
effects are limited. That is not to say WEI is not evil or should not be
opposed, of course.

BTW I see people say "switch to firefox", but if WEI proves to be
essential for firefox to retain users, I don't see why firefox would
not just add a toggle to enable it like it currently does with the
google widevine drm[3].

What do you think?

[1]
https://www.defectivebydesign.org/blog/web_environment_integrity_is_an_all_out_attack_on_free_internet
[2] 
https://github.com/RupertBenWiser/Web-Environment-Integrity/raw/main/explainer.md
[3] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/enable-drm

Best,
Yuchen

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Re: What search engine best at "Freedom-Respecting"?

[Yuchen Pei]

On Mon 2023-07-17 10:07:13 -0400, Greg Farough wrote:

>
> That's correct.
>
> Personally, I like Wiby. It's catered to personal sites / the "small
> web," though. So, it might not be great for doing dissertation
> research or something like that.
>
> 

+1 to wiby, though I don't use it as a search engine. Whenever I need
some inspiration, I go there and click the "suprise me..." link, and
most of the time it does not disappoint.

Best,
Yuchen

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Re: "LibrePlanet Wiki Edit Fest" on July 26: You're invited!

[Yuchen Pei]

Hello,

On Tue 2023-07-18 15:30:17 -0400, Devin Ulibarri wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We are hosting something that we're pretty excited about next week.
>
> We're calling it "LibrePlanet Wiki Edit Fest," and it's a time to
> focus on improving this valuable community resources, the LibrePlanet
> wiki.
>
> So, would you mind to join us for the event on July 26?
>
> *   Time: Wednesday, July 26, 12:30–14:00 EDT (16:30–18:00 UTC)
> *   Format: Virtual workshop, coordinated over BBB and IRC
> *   Registration: https://my.fsf.org/civicrm/event/info?reset=1&id=123
>
> Full details:
> https://www.fsf.org/events/libreplanet-wiki-edit-fest-is-on-july-26-come-join-us
>
> This format is a little bit of an experiment, but we're hoping there
> is enough interest to host such events on a monthly basis.

A sandbox page for testing markups etc. would be useful - I suppose
 is precisely for this purpose.
BTW if your choice of editor is Emacs and you are brave enough, feel
free to try a wiki-mode that I'm working on (warning: very much WIP):

https://g.ypei.me/wiki.el.git/about/

Best,
Yuchen

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Re: Parlement

[Yuchen Pei]

On Tue 2022-08-30 05:41:19 +, Robert James Fulner wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> I was just looking through the Free Software directory looking for
> something my comrades and I can use to more quickly and accurately
> complete our democratic process. I found this
>
> https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Parlement
>
> Which sounds exactly like what I would want, but the links there are
> dead. Anyone familiar with more up-to-date information on the project,
> or perhaps a similar project?

Maybe start with the wayback machine?  Here's a snapshot from 2013 that
was not dead yet

https://web.archive.org/web/20130604140009/http://leparlement.org/

>
> Sent from my Smartphone please dismiss no-so-smart-typos
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Best,
Yuchen

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Re: The beast is live - Github Copilot

[Yuchen Pei]

On Sun 2022-06-26 17:25:24 -0700, Marc Sunet wrote:

>> I feel that one difference between the values of free software and open
>> source is that the free software does not have a problem with taking
>> people's work and re-selling it, as long as the work being resold is
>> free.  Whereas open source focus more on what authors get out of "open
>> source".
>
> And in this case it is SaaSS. Not only is it trained on the existing
> code in the repositories, it also seems to siphon code off your editor
> as you type:
>
> https://github.com/features/copilot/#faq-privacy

Of course there are ways to make it not SaaSS or privacy invading, if
one is going to work on a free software version of copilot - all they
need to do is not replicate the antifeatures.

>
>> GitHub Copilot relies on file content and additional data to
>   work. It collects data both to provide the service and saves some of
>   the data to perform further analysis and enable improvements.
>
>> Depending on your preferred telemetry settings, GitHub Copilot may
>   also collect and retain the following, collectively referred to as
>   “code snippets”: source code that you are editing, related files and
>   other files open in the same IDE or editor, URLs of repositories and
>  files paths.
>


Best,
Yuchen

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Re: The beast is live - Github Copilot

[Yuchen Pei]

On Sat 2022-06-25 13:47:24 -0700, Marc Sunet wrote:

>> Is copilot something only github can offer?  If the vast majority of
>> training data is from public repo that anyone can access, perhaps the
>> only thing stopping people from making something similar is the
>> computing power to convert the data to weights?
>
> Well, I guess that and your will to comply with law, right?

I'm just speculating whether it is feasible for free software orgs like
framasoft or software heritage to develop free software version of
copilot, that trains on data that is code under GPL-compatible licenses
and license the "free copilot" under (A)GPL.

>
> People's code on Github is copyrighted/copylefted, you can't just use
> the code however you please. And I am not too familiar with the Github
> TOS, but I doubt they can override a license. The TOS could also make
> scraping illegal, making it illegal for you to obtain the data en
> mass, but not for Microsoft. Facebook and Instagram do this.
>
> There is also the argument of whether GPL code output by a network
> should be considered a derivative work. After all, the network is
> basically just a different representation of its training inputs. I
> believe the FSF started working on this issue the moment Github
> Copilot was announced; I thought Copilot finally going live was of
> interest to the audience here.
>
> Legal issues aside, I'd argue it's also kind of shitty to take other
> people's work and re-sell it under a $10/$100 subscription, with the
> abuse of confidence and trust that that comes with. Microsoft bought
> the platform when it was already popular, then subverted it for its
> own profit-making. Similar to Google/Youtube.

I feel that one difference between the values of free software and open
source is that the free software does not have a problem with taking
people's work and re-selling it, as long as the work being resold is
free.  Whereas open source focus more on what authors get out of "open
source".

>
> Marc
>


Best,
Yuchen

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Re: The beast is live - Github Copilot

[Yuchen Pei]

On Tue 2022-06-21 19:38:04 -0700, Marc Sunet wrote:

> https://github.blog/2022-06-21-github-copilot-is-generally-available-to-all-developers/

Is copilot something only github can offer?  If the vast majority of
training data is from public repo that anyone can access, perhaps the
only thing stopping people from making something similar is the
computing power to convert the data to weights?

>
> Thank you all you have unwillingly contributed to this project. The
> wait is finally over; today we announce that Github Copilot is now
> available to all developers for $10/mo or $100/mo. You will receive $0
> for your contributions.
>
> Truly yours,
> Microsoft


Best,
Yuchen

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Re: Quick Check on COVID Lockdowns

[Yuchen Pei]

On Thu 2022-04-14 06:09:31 +0900, Yasuaki Kudo wrote:

> If there isn't one already, maybe what it means is we need a sister
> mailing list (or anything else) for peripheral topics or general
> community building at large 😄 I see this often (and this is not just
> for LibrePlanet) where natural human interactions are blocked due to
> the intensional focus (sorry not sure whether it should be spelled
> with a t or s 😅) of the group, but it is a loss because they are
> related and support each other (it's just that intensional side is
> more visible) -Yasu

+1, something like "libreplanet-misc"?

>
>> On Apr 13, 2022, at 23:04, Jean Louis  wrote:
>> 
>> * andrew via libreplanet-discuss
>>  [2022-04-11 22:41]:
>>> Shanghai, where I live, has been locked down again.  Any of you in
>>> lockdown?
>> 
>> And how is this related to Libreplanet?
>> 
>> 
>> Jean
>> 
>> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
>> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>> 
>> In support of Richard M. Stallman
>> https://stallmansupport.org/
>> 
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Best,
Yuchen

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Re: better terminology to promote freedom

[Yuchen Pei]

On Sun 2022-03-20 23:49:20 +, Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I started this on twitter[1] and mastodon[2], but thought I'd also
> start the discussion here, where likeminded people exist who, I
> believe, can contribute to this discussion. My questions relate to
> terminology regarding "free software" and "proprietary software". Here
> goes:
>
> I've been thinking: what if we had a better term than "free software"
> to say "free software"?  Same ideological zeal, in an unambiguous
> fashion. This question pertains to English-speaking communities.
>
> I have decided to say "freedom software".
> Also: "freedom hardware".
>
> Thoughts?

I don't see any problem with "free software".  Software is like speech,
or knowledge, and where a "free" qualification should mean freedom.  It
is unfortunate that it has been interpreted as "gratis" by some people.

TBH there are more important issues to deal with in free software
movement than agonising over the terminology "free software".

Best,
Yuchen

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Re: why isn't stallman on lp2022 speakers list?

[Yuchen Pei]

On Thu 2022-03-03 21:21:27 +0200, Danny Spitzberg wrote:

> Here's an idea: organize "StallmanCon"!
>

I can think of one scenario where something like a "stallmancon" would
make sense.  It is not uncommon in academia to hold a conference in
honour of someone's 10's mutiples birthday, so perhaps a conference in
honor of his 70th birthday in precisely a year's time ;)

Best,
Yuchen

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Re: Are there any eBook readers one can use in freedom?

[Yuchen Pei]

On Wed, Dec 22 2021, Greg Farough wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 22 2021, Caleb Herbert  wrote:
>
>> I've been tempted to get a Kobo. It prefers PDF and EPUB, but it gets
>> software updates.
>
> I've had this page[1] bookmarked for a while, but have never
> personally tried it. From what I understand, it could be a step above
> the usual method of installing KOReader, as I think it also replaces
> the nonfree "Nickel" software that's preloaded on the device.
>
> It seems like part of the build process for okreader is pulling in and
> compiling a kernel -- I wonder if that could be pointed to the
> identical linux-libre version. The lack of WiFi firmware wouldn't be
> an issue, since KOReader enables USB storage, but I'm not sure how the
> lack of "EPD controller firmware" would affect things.
>
> In the meantime, I enjoy reading books with nov.el in Emacs. :)

+1 to nov.el.  I've been using it with follow-mode to get a double or
even triple page view (you might want to remove the header for the
follow mode to work properly) :)  Would be interested in getting a full
text search which is the only thing I miss from calibre's reader.

>
> -g
>
> [1]: https://github.com/lgeek/okreader


Best,
Yuchen

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Re: Are there any eBook readers one can use in freedom?

[Yuchen Pei]

On Wed, Dec 22 2021, lily via libreplanet-discuss wrote:

> Hi, I just yesterday got the Kobo Libra 2.
>
> https://us.kobobooks.com/products/kobo-libra-2
>
> It has a USBc with 32GB of storage.
>
> I used Calibre to download books in epub format and connected the
> ereader with wifi turned OFF and transferred the books using Calibre.

I wonder whether one can install something like termux on an e-reader
like kobo, and ssh into it which can ease the file transfer etc.  Will
probably need to configure the router to ban the e-reader from talking
to the internet too.

>
> https://calibre-ebook.com/
>
> The tricky part is setting up the ereader without wifi. This work
> around did the trick
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/kobo/comments/mt2f30/comment/guybpj1/
>
> Please let me know if this is clear.
>
> Striving for Freedom,
> Crista
>  Original Message 
> On Dec 21, 2021, 8:12 PM, J.B. Nicholson wrote:
>
>> I would like to try reading some DRM-free eBooks with a backlit
>> eBook reader which is
>> lighter than using a laptop and less expensively than using a laptop.
>>
>> I don't need it to be network accessible (no wifi, no Bluetooth
>> needed) so long as it
>> has a USB port and a high capacity storage medium (perhaps a compact
>> flash card) that
>> I can easily copy eBooks to, install in the eBook reader, and use
>> the eBook reader to
>> read files.
>>
>> File format support should include common eBook formats that one can
>> use in freedom
>> (I'd imagine PDFs and epub are reasonable choices).
>>
>> The device should offer the ability to be recharged, ideally with
>> batteries I can
>> replace. It's also okay if the device needs to be plugged in while
>> using the device.
>>
>> It's fine if the device has no upgradable software on it so long as
>> what's on the
>> device works reliably. Editing and/or marking up what I'm reading is
>> not required.
>>
>> Does anyone know of a recommendable device that would do these things?
>>
>> I looked in https://ryf.fsf.org/ and
>> https://h-node.org/hardware/catalogue/en and I
>> didn't notice anything named "ebook reader" or similar language. If
>> I've overlooked
>> something I should consider, please do let me know the URL for that device.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
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Best,
Yuchen

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Re: federated free software movement

[Yuchen Pei]

Arthur Torrey  writes:

>
> I never intended that we should promote non-free software / hardware
> on this Libre-planet list, only that we should be tolerant about it on
> whatever federation structures evolve.

How does such tolerance help the free software movement?

Best,
Yuchen

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Re: federated free software movement

[Yuchen Pei]

jahoti via libreplanet-discuss 
 writes:



On 11/16/21 7:45 PM, Dennis Payne wrote:
I don't see how a federated wikipedia would work. Even if you 
banned
obvious trolls, how would you deal with contentious issues? 
Federation
isn't some magical technologies that immediately makes 
everything

better.


For the case of contentious issues, Stallman did make an 
interesting 
suggestion in his essay proposing a free encyclopaedia that 
multiple 
versions of an article could be offered.


Do you happen to have a link to that essay?

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Re: federated free software movement

[Yuchen Pei]

Jean Louis  writes:



But you can't expect from LibrePlanet to endorse proprietary 
software

in order to "win friends" as it contradiction to the purposes of
LibrePlanet.


+1.  Such compromise does not help the free software movement, and 
I am all for a combined effort if it does not require compromise 
like this.


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Re: federated free software movement

[Yuchen Pei]

Leah Rowe via libreplanet-discuss 
 writes:


What if there was a combined Free Software, OSHW and Right to 
Repair 
group, providing ideological leadership in a peer to peer 
fashion via 
federated services (including Git-based code hosting) and an 
emphasis on 
teaching how to self-host your own federated hosting 
infrastructure?


How do you plan to combine the ideologies of these different 
groups, do you take an intersection or union?  And what would you 
like this new group to do that is not currently done separately by 
existing groups?



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Re: Web Application, how?

[Yuchen Pei]

Yasuaki Kudo  writes:


Hi!

So my friend and I are considering starting a worker 
cooperative, providing customized data management (such as CRM) 
tools for cooperative enterprises, etc.


It seems many existing "modern" web applications are just 
facelift of what used to be Microsoft Access custom forms - the 
pages may have HTML buttons and pictures instead of Microsoft's 
Win32 controls...


Arguably HTML is more open standard than Proprietary Microsoft 
APIs.  But then again, we are just dismayed by looking at 
barrage of Javascript "frameworks" etc, the worst case-in-points 
of Do-o-Cracy. 

For the development of web-based applications, what is the 
current cleanest or the most recommended solution that is 
FSF-approved?


Have you checked the stacks of web apps used by the FSF, like 
CiviCRM and RequestTracker?


Best,
Yuchen



-Yasu



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Re: Fwd: Improving the FSF in support to the GPL, RMS and staff

[Yuchen Pei]

Julian Daich  writes:


-- Forwarded message -
De: Julian Daich 
Date: sáb, 3 abr 2021 a las 17:42
Subject: Improving the FSF in support to the GPL, RMS and staff
To: Free Software Foundation 


Hi,

The GPL is a recursive set of rules that empower people through 
the
knowledge encoded in software and this empowerment is largely 
possible

because knowledge is independent from rhetoric.

The GPL is the main pillar of the FSF and RMS is who conceived 
it. The

FSF and hence the GPL are under attack by a rhetoric that links
freedom with an expected conduct when at the FSF there is not a 
Code

of Conduct other than its by laws.

As a member I would like to see, in fact request, a Code of 
Conduct
that will define and differentiate the expected behaviour of 
members,

staff and Board Members with emphasis which personal acts can be
performed on behalf of the FSF or not( for example asking 
personal
favors while traveling or using FSF infrastructure as.her or his 
own).


I don't see how a new CoC would help.

We already have a Libreplanet CoC 
(https://libreplanet.org/wiki/LibrePlanet:About/Code_of_Conduct) 
and GNU Kind Communications Guidelines 
(https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.en.html) etc.


CoCs in other organisations have been misused or ignored 
(e.g. gnome foundation).




Also as a member consider that the Code of Conduct have to 
include

gender and anti harassment policies and, as a male, that those
policies will include not to be harassed by linking social 
status with

male sexuality.

I am in Boston for the next two months and offer myself to help 
in
everything I can in solving this issue and eventually draft a 
Code of
Conduct. Also invite members and staff to do the same, including 
those

staff members that are willing to leave. Many of them I know
personally, appreciate and would like to have them in a renewed 
FSF.


Warnly,

Julian

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Re: Fwd: Improving the FSF in support to the GPL, RMS and staff

[Yuchen Pei]

Julian Daich  writes:

El sáb, 3 abr 2021 a las 17:51, Yuchen Pei () 
escribió:





I don't see how a new CoC would help.



1. CoCs often include corrective actions.
2. When CoCs are binded to by laws they provide a framework of
expected behaviours, policies and for staff to unionize. An 
effective
CoC is a decision of Board members and staff and less from 
members and

more  peripheral people,

I know that there are Board members and staff at this 
list. Maybe some

of them are reading this message.


We already have a Libreplanet CoC
(https://libreplanet.org/wiki/LibrePlanet:About/Code_of_Conduct)
and GNU Kind Communications Guidelines
(https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.en.html) 
etc.


CoCs in other organisations have been misused or ignored
(e.g. gnome foundation).



I mean institutional CoC, related to specific roles and binded 
to by

laws. None of the above is that. Thanks for the examples.


Shouldn't such guidelines apply to everyone regardless of roles? 
And why do we need a CoC bound by the laws? How do we make sure 
the CoC is not harmful like the Linux one, or abused, misused, or 
selectively enforced using vague languages? How do we make sure 
the inclusive environment is truly inclusive and does not harm 
free speech, and the diversity is truly diverse including 
neurodiversity?


Adding a new one also increases overhead but FSF is shrinking. It 
would better if instead FSF just enforces the current ones 
(libreplanet coc, gnu kind etc.).




Best,

Julian


>
> Also as a member consider that the Code of Conduct have to
> include
> gender and anti harassment policies and, as a male, that 
> those

> policies will include not to be harassed by linking social
> status with
> male sexuality.
>
> I am in Boston for the next two months and offer myself to 
> help

> in
> everything I can in solving this issue and eventually draft a
> Code of
> Conduct. Also invite members and staff to do the same, 
> including

> those
> staff members that are willing to leave. Many of them I know
> personally, appreciate and would like to have them in a 
> renewed

> FSF.
>
> Warnly,
>
> Julian
>
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Re: Support RMS

[Yuchen Pei]

I agree with you we should take feedback seriously, however:

Georgia's line is exceptionally important: "…the fact that he 
faced
consequences for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not 
the

decades of shitty behavior…"

These are not people who are dogpiling on hearsay or gotcha 
online
statements or whatever else. Those anti-patterns do indeed 
happen, and
they polluted and harmed the credibility of the recent open 
letter
against RMS. But here we have people who fully understand the 
unfairness
and yet can express from extensive personal experience the 
*actual*

reasons why RMS's leadership is problematic.


In the same Twitter thread, she also told people that she signed 
the "open letter", which is based on hearsay and gotcha online 
statements.




As someone who deeply and profoundly respects RMS for various 
reasons, I
still don't just simply support his leadership role. I do not 
want him
banished, I want him to learn and do better on his pain 
points. I don't
want to be naive though, efforts in this direction have 
obviously been

done for years and not been enough.

I would like to continue to get RMS' insightful and pointed 
perspectives
without having him lead the organization. I would like him to 
live in
the zone where his genius most thrives and he contributes the 
most, and
I suggest that the other roles he has had would be better filled 
by others.


If we do not take a stand against character assassination, we may 
lose the organisation and RMS's ability to provide insightful and 
pointed perspectives.




If we want a resilient movement, we need to be really open to 
engaging
with complaints. An organization that defends the status quo 
against
such critics is like the NSA attacking Ed Snowden and people 
insinuating
that Snowden is working for Russia (similar to people talking 
about how
Deb now works for the OSI and the OSI is connected to 
corporations).


I'm not suggesting deference to the outside unfair critics, the 
people
who do indeed levy unfair attacks, mine quotes, spread FUD, 
etc. That

stuff can be real, and we need to defend against it.

But people like Deb are our whistleblowers, they are insiders 
who are

bringing attention to serious issues. If we ignore or attack
whistleblowers, we will fail to learn important lessons. This 
attitude

can be fatal to a movement.


This is a terrible analogy. Ed Snowden was risking his life 
spearheading a fight against a powerful government body, but 
accusing a person from a safe distance while that person is being 
attacked in all directions is a different matter.




In solidarity,
Aaron Wolf
(FSF member since 2014, co-founder of Snowdrift.coop)



Again, I agree that we need all perspectives and we should value 
all feedback, including those from Deb and Georgia that are not 
based on falsehood. But I also don't think it is helpful to raise 
concerns about someone who is besieged.





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Re: Support RMS

[Yuchen Pei]

It is one thing to raise legitimate concerns in a legitimate way, 
but a different matter to support a campaign based on blatent lies 
and mischaracterisations, that stifles discussions (as the "open 
letter" does not allow any constructive criticism) and aims at 
character assassination.


Deb Nicholson  writes:


Hi,
I'm a former FSF staff person and a former GNU maintainer who 
has left most
of the FSF & GNU mailing lists that I was on because of the 
extremely
toxic, harassment-filled environments on those lists. I stayed 
on the
LibrePlanet list because it's usually ok and I appreciate seeing 
the
occasional campaign messages and actions to take in support of 
free

software.

RMS inspires a toxic, sexist and unrepentant culture. I'm one of 
the people
who has asked him -- many times -- to take a strong stance 
against sexism
in GNU, to stop treating women as second-class citizens, and to 
re-consider
his utterly clueless and disrespectful treatment of transgender 
people in

our communities.

I want free software to win. I want everyone to be able to 
choose free
software for everything. There is no way for free software to 
win if
hundreds of previously interested people are leaving after they 
get sick of
the hateful, sexist and intolerant parts of our 
communities. People take
their cue from RMS and he has demonstrated over and over again 
that he is
not interested in removing intolerance. If we want a movement 
that grows,
instead of a quirky and toxic private club, then RMS shouldn't 
lead.


Sincerely,
Deb Nicholson

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ali Reza Hayati 
 wrote:



Hello Danny.

I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt but I don't see anything 
wrong
here. Dark humor is everywhere and many people like it. I've 
seen gay
people liking dark humor about gays for example. As I said, 
after all,

that's just jokes and humor.

About being offended, again that's not a problem with 
RMS. Maybe he
hasn't be nice to you or people you know but if you want a nice 
person
to lead a foundation, you may need a kid, not a grown up 
person. Every
person may upset you or others in some way. I've upset many 
people in my

life without any intention, to that I apologize to them.

If you believe RMS is not a good person, that's your opinion 
and
respectable. If you don't think RMS is a good leader, that's 
again

respectable and may even be a fair point if presented well.

However, that's not where RMS opposers stand today. What you've 
signed
is based on false accusations and lies. When it comes to 
defending

truth, that statement/letter is completely false.

I still urge people to support RMS in this matter because 
defending

truth is important.

Again, I'm sorry that your feelings have been hurt but that's 
just your

personal conflict/disappointment.

On 26/03/2021 09:06, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> I am having a difficult time right now. This person Georgia 
> shares
> several years of experience working at FSF and directly with 
> RMS. Ali,
> their testimony makes me think that maybe the free software 
> movement

> needs to move beyond RMS. Here are their words, copied from
> https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
> :
> “I worked at the FSF from 2015-2018 & was shop steward for a 
> while. I
> recall having a months (MONTHS) long conversation with ED 
> John Sullivan
> about why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s needed 
> to be
> removed from gnu.org . rms didn't get why it 
> was

harmful.
>
> Also the abortion joke ('contributed' by rms) in a technical 
> manual? He
> threw a fit when it was removed, & the energy many people 
> (who respected
> him!!) put in to attempting to educate him in why that wasn't 
> cool.

>
> The thing that randos who have never had to actually work 
> with rms don't
> understand is that MANY people who deeply respected him tried 
> to help
> him learn to not objectify women, shout over others at 
> Libreplanet as if

> it was his birthday party, stop shit like 'emacs virgins'
>
> Meanwhile that energy, utterly wasted, could've been spent 
> advocating
> for free to software and building the inclusive, impractical 
> community
> so many people WANT. Spent, instead, on a man's ego, over and 
> over.

>
> This whole thing is incredibly depressing. The free software 
> community
> is largely full of interesting, rad people - I got to work 
> with a bunch
> of people I like & respect & feel inspired by, organizing 
> Libreplanet
> was my job & introduced me to amazing people from across the 
> world

>
> free software has the ability to do so much good, but there's 
> an ugly
> cult of personality around rms, & the fact that he faced 
> consequences
> for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the decades 
> of shitty

> behavior towards women is infuriating & excuses his return
>
> It's easy for people to dismiss shitty words, & because we 
> don't focus
> on shitty

Re: Free Software Logo -> Where does FSF go?

[Yuchen Pei]

   I thought the point of trademarking the gnu head has more to do with
   protecting the reputation of the project / movement, than enforcing
   "IP" or taking away people's freedom. Same reasoning with using
   CC-BY-ND rather than CC-BY-SA for writings with opinions.

   On Fri, Oct 30, 2020, at 10:14 AM, al3xu5 / dotcommon wrote:

   Thu, 29 Oct 2020 09:26:17 -0700 - Aaron Wolf <[1]wolft...@riseup.net>:

   > [...] The FSF is not opposed

   > to legal enforcement of trademarks and copyrights (copylefts in this

   > case).

   Sorry but I am very amazed to hear this statement.

   I believed that the ethical spirit that originated GNU and GPL
   (copyleft),

   and that is the basis of the FSF, was exactly that of opposing
   trademarks,

   copyrights and patents.

   I believed that the primary objective of the FSF and copyleft should be
   on

   the social level, at the service of the freedom of persons, of the

   community, of justice and equality; and not on the technical, legal or

   economic one.

   I have been an FSF member for many years. Perhaps the FSF has been

   changing for some time. Or maybe I'm the one who doesn't understand.
   Maybe

   I never understood.

   However, if things are really like this (and it seems to me more and
   more

   that they are or that they are becoming) I don't think I will renew my

   membership beyond that.

   But I really hope the FSF makes it clear that this is not the case, in

   words and above all in deeds.

   Regards

   al3xu5

   --

   Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and industrial design

   restrictions!

   ___
   _

   Public GPG/PGP key: F94CFE23 (4096 bit RSA)

   Key fingerprint:59C6 9DC7 CD4B CF2F A190  E3DE 69C5 977B F94C FE23

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Re: My Experience Selling Free Software

[Yuchen Pei]

   Have you considered submitting a session on something like "sustainable
   free software development" to libreplanet 2021?
   [1]https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/submit-your-session-for-librepla
   net-2021-before-oct-28
   [2]https://my.fsf.org/lp-call-for-sessions?pk_campaign=LP21&pk_source=c
   fsblog
   I think it would be a great session to have.
   Best,
   Yuchen

   On Sat, Sep 12, 2020, at 6:59 PM, Davis Remmel wrote:

   Hello libreplanet-discuss,

   In my experience very few free software developers sell their work. I
   want to share my experience with selling free software, and why I think
   it's important for developers to realize why it's beneficial, and
   explain the psychological processes that compound to support the
   software _more_ than gratis-ware.

   As background, I've now exclusively developed free software for about 4
   years, and have just began selling it myself. Previously, I developed
   an industrial IoT platform built entirely with free software (real-time
   display of industrial processes, sidestepping proprietary vendors like
   Rockwell). This was not a consumer market, priced very high, and done
   contractually so the users were not casual consumers.

   This week, I released a piece of consumer-level free software, and in
   one week has generated over $500 in sales (45 paying users) from a
   single post on Reddit. As long as sales continue at the current pace
   (they have tapered off, but still making above the poverty limit) I am
   able to pursue writing all the free software I want, independently.

   For some background on why people buy my tool, it's because this
   tablet's manufacturer has crappy software, and there is only one other
   software vendor that also has crappy software. Usually, documents are
   transferred to this tablet via the manufacturer's cloud, but my tool
   transfers documents locally. Also, the manufacturer's software allows
   exporting of a user's documents, but they look like bad photocopies
   (they wanted to keep their pencil shading code proprietary)--my
   software has its own renderer, and produces images that actually look
   like what the tablet's screen shows. Coincidentally, my software
   exports these documents locally (secure), faster (rendered on-PC), with
   higher quality, and lower file sizes. Ergo, my software is plain
   better, and so it fills many consumer needs--this is a huge factor in
   why it sells (not just because its free). With a $12 purchase, I give
   customers 1 year of email support and updates. And, I have written a
   high-quality user manual that I showcase to let users know exactly what
   the software does before buying. My sales pitch is blunt,
   straight-forward, with no bullshit.

   The _bonus_ for customers is that my software is not restrictive. The
   other available clients are incredibly restrictive: one client uses the
   manufacturer's cloud (Google), and the other has typical proprietary
   ToS and charges 3x the price. The GPL lets the users share mine freely
   and spread it around. I don't care if they share copies because I have
   an advertisement for the 1-yr-support+updates in the About pane, and
   who wouldn't want updates and support for $1/month, especially when it
   fills a need in their daily workflow?

   So, with this background of my software and strategy, let me explain
   some psychological effects that happen with the customers. In
   gratis-ware, such as the common type of free software project, users
   will just stop using the software if it doesn't work for them. They
   didn't invest any money into it, and so they don't invest any of their
   own time to ensure they get their money's worth ($0). So, if the
   software doesn't work precisely right for them, they'll just stop using
   it. Or, if another software does something similar but also something
   else, they'll switch without a second thought.

   Two-fold, without charging money, if there is a bug in the gratis-ware
   the user will typically not submit a bug report, or if they try to it
   is locked behind some restrictive interface (a software forge with user
   accounts). The developer is left with no money, and no bug reports. My
   first release contained some blocker bugs (some users couldn't start
   the program) but they paid for it and wanted to get their money's
   worth. I offered support, and virtually all problems were fixed the
   next day with release #2, and my inbox has been pretty quiet since
   (except for payment notifications ;) ).

   To make it easy, I give my customers priority email. This doesn't
   require any account registrations, nothing blocking them from talking
   to me. I've developed a relationship with some of my more-enthusiastic
   customers, and some have offered to be testers; many have given me
   feature requests. In-exchange for testing, I give them perpetual gratis
   updates and support. This one-on-one communication comforts them,
   knowing th

Re: My Experience Selling Free Software

[Yuchen Pei]

   Fantastic write-up, thank you for sharing, and congrats on your
   success.

   Best,

   Yuchen

   On Sat, Sep 12, 2020, at 6:59 PM, Davis Remmel wrote:

   Hello libreplanet-discuss,

   In my experience very few free software developers sell their work. I
   want to share my experience with selling free software, and why I think
   it's important for developers to realize why it's beneficial, and
   explain the psychological processes that compound to support the
   software _more_ than gratis-ware.

   As background, I've now exclusively developed free software for about 4
   years, and have just began selling it myself. Previously, I developed
   an industrial IoT platform built entirely with free software (real-time
   display of industrial processes, sidestepping proprietary vendors like
   Rockwell). This was not a consumer market, priced very high, and done
   contractually so the users were not casual consumers.

   This week, I released a piece of consumer-level free software, and in
   one week has generated over $500 in sales (45 paying users) from a
   single post on Reddit. As long as sales continue at the current pace
   (they have tapered off, but still making above the poverty limit) I am
   able to pursue writing all the free software I want, independently.

   For some background on why people buy my tool, it's because this
   tablet's manufacturer has crappy software, and there is only one other
   software vendor that also has crappy software. Usually, documents are
   transferred to this tablet via the manufacturer's cloud, but my tool
   transfers documents locally. Also, the manufacturer's software allows
   exporting of a user's documents, but they look like bad photocopies
   (they wanted to keep their pencil shading code proprietary)--my
   software has its own renderer, and produces images that actually look
   like what the tablet's screen shows. Coincidentally, my software
   exports these documents locally (secure), faster (rendered on-PC), with
   higher quality, and lower file sizes. Ergo, my software is plain
   better, and so it fills many consumer needs--this is a huge factor in
   why it sells (not just because its free). With a $12 purchase, I give
   customers 1 year of email support and updates. And, I have written a
   high-quality user manual that I showcase to let users know exactly what
   the software does before buying. My sales pitch is blunt,
   straight-forward, with no bullshit.

   The _bonus_ for customers is that my software is not restrictive. The
   other available clients are incredibly restrictive: one client uses the
   manufacturer's cloud (Google), and the other has typical proprietary
   ToS and charges 3x the price. The GPL lets the users share mine freely
   and spread it around. I don't care if they share copies because I have
   an advertisement for the 1-yr-support+updates in the About pane, and
   who wouldn't want updates and support for $1/month, especially when it
   fills a need in their daily workflow?

   So, with this background of my software and strategy, let me explain
   some psychological effects that happen with the customers. In
   gratis-ware, such as the common type of free software project, users
   will just stop using the software if it doesn't work for them. They
   didn't invest any money into it, and so they don't invest any of their
   own time to ensure they get their money's worth ($0). So, if the
   software doesn't work precisely right for them, they'll just stop using
   it. Or, if another software does something similar but also something
   else, they'll switch without a second thought.

   Two-fold, without charging money, if there is a bug in the gratis-ware
   the user will typically not submit a bug report, or if they try to it
   is locked behind some restrictive interface (a software forge with user
   accounts). The developer is left with no money, and no bug reports. My
   first release contained some blocker bugs (some users couldn't start
   the program) but they paid for it and wanted to get their money's
   worth. I offered support, and virtually all problems were fixed the
   next day with release #2, and my inbox has been pretty quiet since
   (except for payment notifications ;) ).

   To make it easy, I give my customers priority email. This doesn't
   require any account registrations, nothing blocking them from talking
   to me. I've developed a relationship with some of my more-enthusiastic
   customers, and some have offered to be testers; many have given me
   feature requests. In-exchange for testing, I give them perpetual gratis
   updates and support. This one-on-one communication comforts them,
   knowing that there's someone there to help immediately, and that
   _someone_ is the author himself. This personal relationship solidifies
   trust.

   So, if you want to be able to fund development, you have to charge.
   And, if you want to get bug reports, you have to charge---and giv

Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement (Sagar Acharya : 2)

[Yuchen Pei]

Most people on here already know how bad things are, but I don't think it's 
black or white win or lose.


Do we really know how bad things are? Is there a report somewhere 
showing, for example adoption in free software, copyleft license and 
dependency in proprietary software / noncopyleft software in numbers and 
how it has evolved over the time?


On a side note, do we have success criteria (over achievable stages, not 
just disappearance of proprietary software from the world) that we can 
use to compare and good metrics to measure the progress of the movement?



  Either way, you can't control other people or society, what are YOU going to 
do. If what you want is money, go get it. If you want to be completely off the 
grid, you can move to rural South America or something. If you really do want 
everyone to be free, I would say get involved in your community and take up 
posts where you are needed there and in the broader free software community. 
Complaining and preaching to the choir like this doesn't accomplish anything.


I don't know about others, but I find OP's posts as well as some replies 
(e.g. Davis Remmel's) informative and useful. I appreciate the on-topic 
discussions in this thread.




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Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement

[Yuchen Pei]

TIL FSF's mission is to defend user freedom from supporters who show 
concerns about the cause /s


On 2020-07-24 18:30, Miles Fidelman wrote:

Not for nothing, but...

"The Free Software Foundation (FSF) is a nonprofit with a worldwide 
mission to promote computer user freedom. We defend the rights of all 
software users."  (from the FSF home page)


To me, the key word is "defend" - and, frankly, when know-nothings 
pontificate about why free software is doomed to failure - a strong 
defense is called for.  Not a kind defense. Not a polite defense.  A 
strong defense.  (IMO)


Miles Fidelman

On 7/24/20 11:02 AM, Ali Reza Hayati wrote:
I actually don't agree to this. The goal of FSF is to make software 
libre knowledge and use worldwide.


Such analogy you mentioned is not for all people.

On July 24, 2020 8:40:29 AM UTC, Msavoritias 
 wrote:

I agree completely. We could attract people with an enjoyable experiece
and the community feeling.
We should investigate how FSF and GNU can improve these areas.

Regards,
MSavoritias

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 07:29, Yasuaki Kudo  wrote:

In a way, I think money is not even a big issue.

I recently came across this article:

 



Applying the "Slow Food" analogy, our point would not be pouring
money so that it becomes "Less Slow" 😄

I would say, we need to have more people enjoy it.  So in practical
terms, we need to develop a huge communal kitchen, instead of an
industrial food factory.

The workers at food factory, or paid computer programmers at
Microsoft, for example, would not go there were it not for the money.

However, the people at communal kitchens at camping sites go there
for the enjoyment of it!

Free Software development should a very enjoyable activity and we
should aim to develop a practical regime of constantly welcoming new
participants, educating them and empowering them to enjoy and
contribute meaningfully to the Fee Software ecosystem 😄

-Yasu




On Jul 24, 2020, at 06:36, Msavoritias
 wrote:

  Mr Fidelman,
   Whether this person is or isn't correct doesn't matter. We should
treat
   everybody respectfully otherwise we are alienating potential Free
   Software users from joining our community. Please try to be more
polite
   in the future.
   MSavoritias

   On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 15:22, Miles Fidelman
    wrote:

   On 7/23/20 12:48 PM, Sagar Acharya via libreplanet-discuss wrote:

 I read "Free as in Freedom" by Richard Stallman and am a strong
 supporter of GNU project. I strongly want it to succeed. 
However,

 when you keep money away from the free software movement, such a
 movement cannot survive against people who actively charge money
for
 binaries without source code. All power arises from concealment.
 When you understand a system very well, the power goes away and
it
 looks ordinary. When GNU or libre movement asks contributors or
 volunteers (both fancy words for "work for me for free"), you
 present making libre software as a secondary thing rather than a
 central thing. When projects licensed GPLv3 rely almost
completely
 on "donations" from other, you rely on the donor's generosity 
for

 getting food at your table. I really want people to remove
reliance
 on external things and make GNU central and very active.

   So what's your point? FOSS is doing quite well.  Apache powers the
   web.  Postfix powers email.  Linux, Python, ...  And plenty of the
bug
   guys pay good money to folks who crank out FOSS software. What's
the
   point of pontificating & spouting counter-factual bullshit?  Do 
you

   just like making a fool of yourself?  Or am I missing something?
Miles
   Fidelman
   --
   In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In
   practice, there is.  Yogi Berra Theory is when you know
everything
   but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one
knows
   why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works
and no
   one knows why. ... unknown
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References

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   2.
https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
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