Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)
Hello! So I created these places: [1]https://mobilizon.fr/@digital_commons [2]https://github.com/yugawara/digitalcommons I hope like-minded people can start to add contents and we can make it better over a long time! I can make anyone intested an 'Administrator'. My hope is that we can put together our collective thoughts and analyze them. There are endless possibilities here - we can collect links, develop software, anything we want! Regarding 'marketing', that's definitely important - we can share information and develop strategies here! -Yasu On Mon, 2022-05-23 at 15:38 +, Lori Nagel via libreplanet-discuss wrote: I was reading yourlong email, and this has been on my mind for a long time, but inorder to get the freedom respecting software technology into thehands of everyone for everything instead of proprietary software,what you have to solve is not a technology problem, but a marketingproblem. If you think abouthow we got to the state we are in today, with proprietary softwaredominating in certain areas of computing, you have to remember thatthe reason for that is because of marketing, not because the productsare better, but because of how people know about it, and the socialrelationships between people. Just because software has always beenpromoted a certain way, or that even it is promoted in a differentway does not mean we have to keep doing it that way. I keep thinkingabout what you said, how asking questions is a skill that is honedwith practice, and not everyone has mastered it, and how it goes overdifferently with different audiences. Then you talk about all thosenewbie questions and how people just want their stuff to work. Why should peoplehave to answer endless newbie questions for free all the time, whycan’t that be a paid job? Why wouldn’t people pay someone tohold their hand and basically help them through everything? A lot of thethinking about this kind of thing comes from people in the technologyspace, people who like to fool around for hours on end to get thingsto work, rather than just ask someone and have it done in fiveseconds. We have this fascination with technology and are happy to,for hours on end, get the search engines to hopefully bring inrelevant results and then tweak them until it works. Yet, once you are inthe mindset of a tech person, how can you get into the mindset ofyour opposite, the marketing person selling memberships, themulti-level network marketer, a person whose focus is on people,marketing and selling, not technology? The thing withmarketing, is it is just as innovative as technology, and techniquesthat worked to get peoples attention and get them to buy are alwayschanging, and yet the principles are timeless. You have to get theproduct in front of an audience and convince people that it is theproduct for them, or that it is the service for them. So, with that I havesome questions. What if we improved tech support by bringing peoplein who speak the customers own language in terms they can understand? What if we brought people in whose strengths were not so focused onthe technology piece, but on the human piece, and focused on the waypeople use technology rather than trying to turn everyone into a techguru? I’ve oftenwondered if certain strategies used in marketing focused businessescould be used for tech support. What if the person selling thesupport could be responsible for the people they bring in, forgetting them the help that they want with freedom respectingsoftware? What if it was not about trying to save money, but peoplebuying a membership in a community where they feel welcome andunderstood? I’m only oneperson, and I certainly don’t have all the answers, and I don’texpect technology focused people to necessarily wrap their headsaround the idea that people are literally buying into this idea of acommunity and not a product or service. But, yet this is essentiallywhat the free software foundation is, and we need to take thisconcept and expand it. We need to reach new markets through peoplewhose primary interest is in marketing and relationships. I really think thisneeds to be discussed further. I do not think the issues areunsolvable, but that they will require always going outside of ourcommunities, but also going outside our own modes of thought andbecoming our opposites. On Sunday, May 22, 2022, 08:56:00 PM EDT, Yasuaki Kudo <[3]y...@yasuaki.com> wrote: With partners, I am currently trying to start a "digital commons movement", if you will, a community where people learn together and rebuild a new collaborative society based on partnership of the equals, and I stress this term equal partnership - zero hierarchy, zero "come back later when you know know how to ask better
Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)
I was reading your long email, and this has been on my mind for a long time, but in order to get the freedom respecting software technology into the hands of everyone for everything instead of proprietary software, what you have to solve is not a technology problem, but a marketing problem. If you think about how we got to the state we are in today, with proprietary software dominating in certain areas of computing, you have to remember that the reason for that is because of marketing, not because the products are better, but because of how people know about it, and the social relationships between people. Just because software has always been promoted a certain way, or that even it is promoted in a different way does not mean we have to keep doing it that way. I keep thinking about what you said, how asking questions is a skill that is honed with practice, and not everyone has mastered it, and how it goes over differently with different audiences. Then you talk about all those newbie questions and how people just want their stuff to work. Why should people have to answer endless newbie questions for free all the time, why can’t that be a paid job? Why wouldn’t people pay someone to hold their hand and basically help them through everything? A lot of the thinking about this kind of thing comes from people in the technology space, people who like to fool around for hours on end to get things to work, rather than just ask someone and have it done in five seconds. We have this fascination with technology and are happy to, for hours on end, get the search engines to hopefully bring in relevant results and then tweak them until it works. Yet, once you are in the mindset of a tech person, how can you get into the mindset of your opposite, the marketing person selling memberships, the multi-level network marketer, a person whose focus is on people, marketing and selling, not technology? The thing with marketing, is it is just as innovative as technology, and techniques that worked to get peoples attention and get them to buy are always changing, and yet the principles are timeless. You have to get the product in front of an audience and convince people that it is the product for them, or that it is the service for them. So, with that I have some questions. What if we improved tech support by bringing people in who speak the customers own language in terms they can understand? What if we brought people in whose strengths were not so focused on the technology piece, but on the human piece, and focused on the way people use technology rather than trying to turn everyone into a tech guru? I’ve often wondered if certain strategies used in marketing focused businesses could be used for tech support. What if the person selling the support could be responsible for the people they bring in, for getting them the help that they want with freedom respecting software? What if it was not about trying to save money, but people buying a membership in a community where they feel welcome and understood? I’m only one person, and I certainly don’t have all the answers, and I don’t expect technology focused people to necessarily wrap their heads around the idea that people are literally buying into this idea of a community and not a product or service. But, yet this is essentially what the free software foundation is, and we need to take this concept and expand it. We need to reach new markets through people whose primary interest is in marketing and relationships. I really think this needs to be discussed further. I do not think the issues are unsolvable, but that they will require always going outside of our communities, but also going outside our own modes of thought and becoming our opposites. On Sunday, May 22, 2022, 08:56:00 PM EDT, Yasuaki Kudo wrote: With partners, I am currently trying to start a "digital commons movement", if you will, a community where people learn together and rebuild a new collaborative society based on partnership of the equals, and I stress this term equal partnership - zero hierarchy, zero "come back later when you know know how to ask better questions", zero knowledge worshipping, zero founder, zero leadership - initially focused on the digital domain to bootstrap the movement. In such a community, yes, any question, suggestion or statement will be welcome! They are not only welcome but will probably form the backbone of the society. Erica's really good points and many others we discussed here such as the twitter replacement, make me think that time is ripe for this. In the community I am thinking of, Free Software will be an important part but it will not be the end goal or the most dominant focus. Rather, Free Software will be a natural choice, because the
Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)
With partners, I am currently trying to start a "digital commons movement", if you will, a community where people learn together and rebuild a new collaborative society based on partnership of the equals, and I stress this term equal partnership - zero hierarchy, zero "come back later when you know know how to ask better questions", zero knowledge worshipping, zero founder, zero leadership - initially focused on the digital domain to bootstrap the movement. In such a community, yes, any question, suggestion or statement will be welcome! They are not only welcome but will probably form the backbone of the society. Erica's really good points and many others we discussed here such as the twitter replacement, make me think that time is ripe for this. In the community I am thinking of, Free Software will be an important part but it will not be the end goal or the most dominant focus. Rather, Free Software will be a natural choice, because the software requirements of the community will require that kind of licensing as the bare minimum standard. But it won't be just married to Free Software, either. The software licensing is just a part its concern and it will also have discussions of how to take advantage of proprietary systems. IPhone maybe a totally locked system but it doesn't stop us from accessing homepages built with Free Software. Windows is proprietary but WSL2 makes available a Linux subsystem on top of it. Gradually transitioning from Proprietary to Free is a perfectly good strategy, in my opinion. If I may add, what else is a proprietary system good for, other than to make the transition to the Free? If anyone reading this is interested, you can contact me personally - let's make it happen! -Yasu +81.90.6523.2640 y...@yasuaki.com http://yasuaki.com On May 23, 2022, at 01:24, Jean Louis wrote: > > * Erica Frank [2022-05-19 22:30]: >> It's increasingly clear to me that the free software movement has little >> interest in outreach to the general non-coder/non-developer public, and >> this reply just reinforces my belief. > > That is not true. > > That is your personal impression, though it is not objectively true. > > Free software movement is really huge, large community. Many large > companies are inside of it, including Google, Redhat, Lenovo, > including Microsoft, and too many users and developers, so it is very > out of proportion to claim how "free software ovement" has "little > interest" in outreach to general public. > > We talk mostly of GNU system based on Linux kernel. > > GNU/Linux FAQ by Richard Stallman > https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html > > But for those who refer to system incorrectly with "Linux" only, there > are many many online references guiding people to install GNU/Linux on > their computers. > > How to Install Linux > https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/ > > Install Linux | Simple Guide For Installation of Linux in Windows > https://www.educba.com/install-linux/ > > How to Install Linux: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow > https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux > > How to Install Linux on Any PC or Laptop > https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/ > > How to Install Linux | Operating Systems | Lenovo US > https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-install-linux/?orgRef=https%253A%252F%252Fduckduckgo.com%252F > > How to Download and Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows PC > https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html > > How to install Linux step-by-step - Like Geeks > https://likegeeks.com/how-to-install-linux/ > > How to Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows 10 [Ultimate Guide 2022] > https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic/install-linux-on-windows-10.html > > How to Install Linux on a Mac : HelloTech How > https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac > > How to get started with Linux: A beginner’s guide > https://www.pcworld.com/article/427298/how-to-get-started-with-linux-a-beginners-guide.html > > How to install Linux - CNET > https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/how-to-install-linux/ > > How to Install Linux from a USB Flash Drive - TechDim > https://www.techdim.com/how-to-install-linux/ > > How to Install Linux on Windows 10 : HelloTech How > https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-windows-10 > > Install WSL | Microsoft Docs > https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install > > How to Install Linux from ISO to Installed - Linux.com > https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/how-install-linux-iso-installed/ > > How to install Linux in 3 steps | Opensource.com > https://opensource.com/article/21/2/linux-installation > > How to Install Ubuntu Linux on your Dell Computer | Dell US > https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131655/how-to-install-ubuntu-linux-on-your-dell-pc > > The Complete Beginner's Guide to Linux - Linux.com > https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/complete-beginners-guide-linux/ > > ▷ Linux
Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)
* Erica Frank [2022-05-19 22:30]: > It's increasingly clear to me that the free software movement has little > interest in outreach to the general non-coder/non-developer public, and > this reply just reinforces my belief. That is not true. That is your personal impression, though it is not objectively true. Free software movement is really huge, large community. Many large companies are inside of it, including Google, Redhat, Lenovo, including Microsoft, and too many users and developers, so it is very out of proportion to claim how "free software ovement" has "little interest" in outreach to general public. We talk mostly of GNU system based on Linux kernel. GNU/Linux FAQ by Richard Stallman https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html But for those who refer to system incorrectly with "Linux" only, there are many many online references guiding people to install GNU/Linux on their computers. How to Install Linux https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/ Install Linux | Simple Guide For Installation of Linux in Windows https://www.educba.com/install-linux/ How to Install Linux: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux How to Install Linux on Any PC or Laptop https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/ How to Install Linux | Operating Systems | Lenovo US https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-install-linux/?orgRef=https%253A%252F%252Fduckduckgo.com%252F How to Download and Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows PC https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html How to install Linux step-by-step - Like Geeks https://likegeeks.com/how-to-install-linux/ How to Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows 10 [Ultimate Guide 2022] https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic/install-linux-on-windows-10.html How to Install Linux on a Mac : HelloTech How https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac How to get started with Linux: A beginner’s guide https://www.pcworld.com/article/427298/how-to-get-started-with-linux-a-beginners-guide.html How to install Linux - CNET https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/how-to-install-linux/ How to Install Linux from a USB Flash Drive - TechDim https://www.techdim.com/how-to-install-linux/ How to Install Linux on Windows 10 : HelloTech How https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-windows-10 Install WSL | Microsoft Docs https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install How to Install Linux from ISO to Installed - Linux.com https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/how-install-linux-iso-installed/ How to install Linux in 3 steps | Opensource.com https://opensource.com/article/21/2/linux-installation How to Install Ubuntu Linux on your Dell Computer | Dell US https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131655/how-to-install-ubuntu-linux-on-your-dell-pc The Complete Beginner's Guide to Linux - Linux.com https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/complete-beginners-guide-linux/ ▷ Linux Tutorial For Beginners | Step By Step Linux Guide 2022 https://mindmajix.com/linux-tutorial A Beginners’ Guide to Linux https://linuxhint.com/linux-beginner-guide/ Linux Tutorial | A Basic Guide to Linux For Beginners https://www.educba.com/software-development/software-development-tutorials/linux-tutorial/ Beginner's Guide to Linux System Administration - GeeksforGeeks https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/beginners-guide-to-linux-system-administration/ Introducing Linux: Ultimate Beginner's Guide https://www.fossmint.com/introducing-linux-ultimate-beginners-guide/ The Linux command line for beginners | Ubuntu https://ubuntu.com/tutorials/command-line-for-beginners#1-overview UNIX / Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Learn Online in 7 days https://www.guru99.com/unix-linux-tutorial.html Linux Tutorial for Beginners - Learn Linux and the Bash Command Line https://ryanstutorials.net/linuxtutorial/ How to Learn Linux: A Step-By-Step Guide | Career Karma https://careerkarma.com/blog/how-to-learn-linux/ Beginners Guide To Using Linux - A Linux command cheat sheet | Linuxlookup https://www.linuxlookup.com/beginners_guide_using_linux Beginner Geek: How to Start Using the Linux Terminal https://www.howtogeek.com/140679/beginner-geek-how-to-start-using-the-linux-terminal/ A Beginner's Guide to Linux – The Midphase Blog https://www.midphase.com/blog/a-beginners-guide-to-linux/ A Beginner's Guide to Getting Started in Linux https://www.techopedia.com/2/25663/software/operating-systems/a-beginners-guide-to-getting-started-in-linux Linux Tutorial for Beginners: Introduction to Linux Operating System - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1y-mbWM3B8 A Beginner's Guide to the Linux Command Line | TechSpot https://www.techspot.com/guides/835-linux-command-line-basics/ Beginner's guide to Linux: where to start | TechRadar https://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/beginner-s-guide-to-linux-where-to-start-1066778 The above list is just a fraction of references, easily to find within 10
Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)
* Erica Frank [2022-05-13 21:32]: > The biggest impediment to getting free software used on campuses (and > in the business world) is the lack of beginner-level support for > switching from Windows or Mac to a free OS. Installing an operating system is simply NOT for beginner. Your best option for beginners is to buy hardware with installed free operating system. The campaign Upgrade from Windows is availabe for that purpose: https://www.fsf.org/windows It points to free software distributions: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.en.html Each of them have their forums, mailing lists, IRC, more or less free support for users to switch to new system. > The problem with multiple Linux (and similar) setups, each adapted > for different specific needs, is that the average Windows user has > no idea how to pick one, and installation is often followed by > problems like "this laptop can no longer connect to the internet > until you download a set of drivers for it which you'll need to > do on another machine, and then transfer in." Multiple-Linux setups does not sound as a beginner problem. However, would you have some specific issue at hand, I could tell you how and where to report it, if I cannot resolve it myself. > Tech support for newbie problems is often downright hostile. "If you > don't know how to use a command line, just go back to Windows." That is generalization based on unnamed person's opinion. Free software distributions are there abiding by policies on how to solve issues of users. Your statement above is so far not relevant to those free software distributions. I have not seen not even one time that some person would answer that way. In fact, one of policies is not to drive people to proprietary systems. Maybe you have asked it on some website not relevant to GNU project or FSF. > Alternately, the solutions offered are couched in technical language > that require several followup questions like "how would I find out if I > have that permission?" and "I don't know what those settings are, where > do I find them?" Statement is general, strives towards blaming, without constructive improvement proposal. For technical questions you should expect technical answers. > And if they ask on Stack Exchange or Stack Overflow, newbie > questions are often faced with reactions like "question closed" > followed by a link to another question that they do not understand > as similar to theirs. The reactions to complaints about this are > usually "We're not hostile; we just don't want to waste time. Learn > to ask better questions." Those websites are not related to FSF or GNU project or free software distributions. Your general fury on various communities cannot possibly be solved on Libreplanet mailing list. > That might be fine for beginning coders. It is not fine for high school > students who are just trying to have a functional computer that does > web browsing, document editing, and maybe a bit of gaming. The end > result is not going to be "this person studies the software and comes > back with better questions"; it's going to be "I guess I'll switch back > to Windows." That some people will remain on proprietary OS is understandable, and that more people will switch is also provable by statistics, as there is every day more and more GNU/Linux users. Dissatisfaction on your side does not at all represent global movement, unspoken a fact. https://findly.in/how-many-linux-users-are-there/ > As long as switching to a free OS comes with a 3+ week self-directed > training period of "google for answers to 'why isn't this basic > thing working like I expect it to?'" very few people are going to > switch - or at least, very few of them will switch and stay. That is your opinion. I cannot relate to it, it is general, blaming, and does not represent anyone's true or real world experience. > (Insisting "hey you should use duckduckgo or startpage instead of > google" will not result in more people converting to free software.) That is tangential issue. Though nobody forbids you to use Google, I can't see where is the real problem on your side. > And that applies to other free software as well. The benefits of > switching from MS Office to LibreOffice have to be couched as > something other than "you won't be supporting an evil megacorp and > you won't be handing them all your user data." Because for most > people, those are non-issues, and certainly not worth the hassle of > relearning office software and dealing with the lack of features > they've come to expect. (If anyone knows a free-software equivalent > of Acrobat Pro or InDesign, I'd love to hear about it. And every few > years, I install LibreOffice and see if it'll cover how I use Word; > it does not.) (It would cover how I use Excel and PPT, but I don't > see the value in using those without switching the whole > suite. Especially since my job insists on the MS Suite.) Oh, now I get it. 珞 Well... there are many ways
Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)
On 5/13/22 21:05, Erica Frank wrote: [snip] And if they ask on Stack Exchange or Stack Overflow, newbie > questions are often faced with reactions like "question closed" followed by a link to another question that they do not understand as similar to theirs. The reactions to complaints about this are usually "We're not hostile; we just don't want to waste time. Learn to ask better questions." [snip] And who owns and staffs those sites, and what is their policy on Free Software? Hearsay is that is is Prosus N V which is part of Naspers Limited. Further, it is alleged to be written using only Redmond's tools, which belies the attitude of at least the original staff who would be integral in establishing a culture there. Reddit, to name another trap, is owned by Conde Nast which is quite hostile to it and many moderators who seem to act like their mission is to stamp it out. Dragging up ancient history, although Slashdot was not a help site it was a forum for FOSS news due to it reflecting the zeitgeist at the turn of the century. Changing owners put an end to that. /Lars PS. Thank you in advance for not top-posting. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)
The biggest impediment to getting free software used on campuses (and in the business world) is the lack of beginner-level support for switching from Windows or Mac to a free OS. The problem with multiple Linux (and similar) setups, each adapted for different specific needs, is that the average Windows user has no idea how to pick one, and installation is often followed by problems like "this laptop can no longer connect to the internet until you download a set of drivers for it which you'll need to do on another machine, and then transfer in." Tech support for newbie problems is often downright hostile. "If you don't know how to use a command line, just go back to Windows." Alternately, the solutions offered are couched in technical language that require several followup questions like "how would I find out if I have that permission?" and "I don't know what those settings are, where do I find them?" And if they ask on Stack Exchange or Stack Overflow, newbie questions are often faced with reactions like "question closed" followed by a link to another question that they do not understand as similar to theirs. The reactions to complaints about this are usually "We're not hostile; we just don't want to waste time. Learn to ask better questions." That might be fine for beginning coders. It is not fine for high school students who are just trying to have a functional computer that does web browsing, document editing, and maybe a bit of gaming. The end result is not going to be "this person studies the software and comes back with better questions"; it's going to be "I guess I'll switch back to Windows." As long as switching to a free OS comes with a 3+ week self-directed training period of "google for answers to 'why isn't this basic thing working like I expect it to?'" very few people are going to switch - or at least, very few of them will switch and stay. (Insisting "hey you should use duckduckgo or startpage instead of google" will not result in more people converting to free software.) And that applies to other free software as well. The benefits of switching from MS Office to LibreOffice have to be couched as something other than "you won't be supporting an evil megacorp and you won't be handing them all your user data." Because for most people, those are non-issues, and certainly not worth the hassle of relearning office software and dealing with the lack of features they've come to expect. (If anyone knows a free-software equivalent of Acrobat Pro or InDesign, I'd love to hear about it. And every few years, I install LibreOffice and see if it'll cover how I use Word; it does not.) (It would cover how I use Excel and PPT, but I don't see the value in using those without switching the whole suite. Especially since my job insists on the MS Suite.) If you want schools & businesses to use free software, set up a website that recommends one OS and has a quick-install bundle of common student/business software. (PortableApps.com has a terrific setup for this, but afiak it's Windows-only.) Set up a forum or (sigh) Discord for questions, and be supportive to clueless people who are trying out what they think is a new fad. Find volunteers who are happy to answer endless beginner questions about how the command line works and explain basic vocabulary, over and over. (There can be a FAQ page. Very few beginners will read it, and some of the answers are likely to be too technical or too long or both. And if the point is converting people to free software, "go away and come back when you understand better" is not going to work.) Offer bundle deals with tech support for small businesses that want to convert their whole office to free software. Or to schools that want to equip all their students with Linux laptops. Offer to teach online classes to high school students, to explain how computers work--because we've reached a point where millions of people have no idea how "saving a file" works. [1]https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-str ucture-education-gen-z The free software movement is not friendly or welcoming to non-coders. As long as that's true, it's not going to get strong inroads into education or the business world. Complaining about how we got here won't fix any of the problems, and only adds to the belief that the free software movement is for elitist techies, not for everyday users. On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:06 AM Lars Noodén <[2]lars.noo...@gmx.com> wrote: I fully support building curricula on Free Software exclusively, or as close to that as possible with an eye towards achieving 100% in the near future. RMS wrote an essay around 20 years ago, "Why Schools Should Exclusively Use Free Software" [1], which could still serve as a
