Re: Essay RFC delayed.
Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: However, Eric and the Open Source movement deliberately avoid the issues that I focus on most: issues of principle. They do not say that we deserve freedom to share and change software, or urge people to refuse to give up their freedom by accepting non-free software. That's right. If we did that, we would confuse and/or alienate everybody but the 5% of the population wired just like hackers. Which is exactly what you did for fifteen years. When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is *stop digging*. -- a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr"Eric S. Raymond/a The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." -- Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story of the John Marshall Court
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
"Eric S. Raymond" wrote: That's right. If we did that, we would confuse and/or alienate everybody but the 5% of the population wired just like hackers. Which Is this necessarily a bad thing? Realistically, the major contributors of open source have mostly been hackers. Would there be a significant reduction in the proliferation and quality of free software if linux had not gone corporate? -- Signal 11, BOFH to the UF list and malign.net "Different Earths, identical mayhem." -- Professor Arturo
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
Signal 11 [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Realistically, the major contributors of open source have mostly been hackers. Would there be a significant reduction in the proliferation and quality of free software if linux had not gone corporate? Maybe not. But I think I'm not the only person tired of living in a ghetto and watching from the sidelines while Microsoft locked down the Internet. It was time to grow up and get real. -- a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr"Eric S. Raymond/a The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1823
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
On Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 03:12:37AM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: That's right. If we did that, we would confuse and/or alienate everybody but the 5% of the population wired just like hackers. Which is exactly what you did for fifteen years. When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is *stop digging*. You know, I think that this is where I must totally disagree with you. Your contention that corporations have no notion of civic duty is both a simple minded stereotype and fundamentally untrue. The notion of shared public infrastructures is neither new nor unappetizing to large organizations. Freedom, in the sense that Richard is discussing, is central and inseparable from the functional success of the "Open Source" phenomena. The grey thinking that you are encouraging leads directly to problematic licenses like the SCSL. You might as well stop trying to make simple issues complex and deal with the matter of freedom head on. Organizations have been aware of the issues of "freedom" in free software almost since day one. They just call it "intellectual property management policy" and Richard's "freedom" is the optimal policy for Open Source software. I can recall having conversations with executives in the _accounting_ arm of EDS about Linux as a shared business infrastructure in the Fall of 1995. The popularity of free software, open source, or whatever you choose to call it is due to the fact that there was a gap in the marketplace waiting to be filled. Necessity is the mother of invention, despite the fact that you would like to stand in her place. E -- ___ Ean Schuessler An oderless programmer work-a-like Novare International Inc. Silent and motionless *** WARNING: This signature may contain jokes.
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
Ean R . Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You know, I think that this is where I must totally disagree with you. Your contention that corporations have no notion of civic duty is both a simple minded stereotype and fundamentally untrue. The notion of shared public infrastructures is neither new nor unappetizing to large organizations. If you're so smart, why aren't *you* the person the Wall Street Journal calls? I know that sounds pretty snotty. I'm almost past caring that it does, because I'm fed up with the inability of supposedly intelligent people to see past their idealism and their prejudices. Your alternative fails the reality test. The shared-public-infrastructure argument has been tried; hell, I used to try it myself when I was as naive as you are. It doesn't work. Never mind whether it's "right" or not. That's not the issue here, and this consistent confusion between good ethics and good tactics is exactly your problem (and RMS's). Wake up, man. The percentage of people who can be reached by arguments that aren't founded in selfishness is *tiny*. You and I both happen to be among them -- but I know I'm in a minority, and you apparently don't. Among corporate CEOs the percentage drops further because it's their *job* to be selfish; it's their *job* to maximize shareholder value at the expense of anything else. I never lie. But sometimes a partial truth is more effective than the whole deal -- and that's exactly how it is with "free software". -- a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr"Eric S. Raymond/a No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it. -- 16 Am. Jur. Sec. 177 late 2d, Sec 256
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
Realistically, the major contributors of open source have mostly been hackers. Would there be a significant reduction in the proliferation and quality of free software if linux had not gone corporate? Quality : No, other than that which is created by the talent and resources brought to the table by "corporate" types. Proliferation: Absolutely there would be a dramatic difference. Two years ago, to bring a Linux server into an organization that was primarily, say, Windows, was a nightmarish ordeal. Been there, done that. Now, with corporate america "aware" at least of Linux, and its benefits, and it having some associated clout, it is far easier for Joe Hacker to convince his boss that "Hey you should replace that NT server with a Linux box..."
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
"Eric S. Raymond" wrote: If you're so smart, why aren't *you* the person the Wall Street Journal calls? Everybody, back up. There is no need to get personal here. I'm fed up with the inability of supposedly intelligent people to see past their idealism and their prejudices. Eric, that idealism which you are so quick to dismiss is what fired this whole movement up and is what continues to sustain it. Idealism is what makes life interesting! It can also touch off bitter wars of attrition (aka flaming). People live by their beliefs, and only very stubbornly give them up. It is also a hallmark of human reasoning to hold beliefs which are not logically self-consistent. Wake up, man. The percentage of people who can be reached by arguments that aren't founded in selfishness is *tiny*. You and I both happen to be among them -- but I know I'm in a minority, and you apparently don't. I have to disagree - that's a myth perpetuated by the mindset of american society. The idea of enlightened self-interest as the driving force behind all progress holds true for capitalism - not life in general. -- Signal 11, BOFH to the UF list and malign.net "Our vision is to speed up time, eventually eliminating it."-- Alex Schure
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
Signal 11 [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Eric, that idealism which you are so quick to dismiss Sigh. You seem to have joined the idiot chorus with this line. I'm not "dismissing" idealism at all; like you, I *live* idealism. I'm just pointing out that it makes ineffective communications tactics for reaching people who aren't like us -- that is XNTX on the Myers-Briggs grid. is what fired this whole movement up and is what continues to sustain it. Well, *duh*! Of course it is. But that doesn't tell us a damn thing about whether it's good tactics to blab about our idealism in front of people who are neuropsychologically predisposed to treat it as nothing more than evidence of insanity. Brain wiring matters. I have to disagree - that's a myth perpetuated by the mindset of american society. The idea of enlightened self-interest as the driving force behind all progress holds true for capitalism - not life in general. Disagree all you like; that won't move reality by an angstrom. I'll know that you understand human psychology better than I do when you demonstrate that you're better at I am at persuading people other than hackers. Go for it. Take my job, please. -- a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr"Eric S. Raymond/a The abortion rights and gun control debates are twin aspects of a deeper question --- does an individual ever have the right to make decisions that are literally life-or-death? And if not the individual, who does?
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
"Eric S. Raymond" wrote: I'm just pointing out that it makes ineffective communications tactics for reaching people who aren't like us -- that is XNTX on the Myers-Briggs grid. Well, about 25% of people are NT on the myers-briggs, if I recall correctly. That's not a small minority. And just because talking about ideals with people who are of the sensing / feeling type doesn't mean ideals are lost on them. To reach those people, you just need to be enthusiastic, energetic, charismatic(sp?), oh yeah.. and being witty helps too. I've spoken with many "normal" people on the idea of free software, linux, and that whole ball of wax. They DO understand, and it isn't hard to reach them. I mean.. it isn't hard to lay the facts out for them and connect the dots. I haven't failed yet to convince somebody that free software has more benefits to them, the end user, than it's commercial equivalents. But it is necessary to maintain some level of purity with the licensing styles of the open source / free software movement. I mean, the line has GOT to be drawn somewhere. Otherwise wierd problems crop up like the QPL's patching fiasco, or Apple's botched license. All these derivatives of the GPL, as well as licenses that almost-but-not-quite make the OSD only confuse the issue. We really do need to be united, as a community, on this issue. Unfortunately, it seems to be the one thing nobody can agree on. it. Take my job, please. I'm working on it. Unfortunately I still have 3 papers, a book, and several slashdot postings to go before I'm qualified. Oh yeah, and being only 19 I still need to finish college.[1] ;) -- Signal 11, BOFH to the UF list and malign.net "Got any more good ideas, Jim?" McCoy [1] This is also my official excuse incase I say something really stupid.
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Disagree all you like; that won't move reality by an angstrom. I'll know that you understand human psychology better than I do when you demonstrate that you're better at I am at persuading people other than hackers. Go for it. Take my job, please. One can always appeal to the basest desires of most people and be more successful than those that rely on principle to guide their actions. The real challenge is in getting them to see profit in working with the community while discouraging parasitism on their part. I don't see you doing this. Although the magnitude is different, what you are doing is analagous to making deals with a serial killer where you get something in return for providing him with victims. I don't see this as a very honorable way of doing business, even if what you get back ultimately benefits society as a whole. The ends do not justify the means. I agree with Richard: I would rather live in a community of ideals, even if it were a lot smaller and less functional (in a compatibility- with-the-outside-world sense). Encroaching decadence will never be a trait of _my_ community, no matter how enticing the price/performance ratio looks. I neither need nor want to deal with "reality" if it means I have to engage in this sort of behavior. Kyle - -- Kyle R. RoseMIT LCS NE43-309, Cambridge, MA 18 Leland Street Apt. 1 617-253-5883 Somerville, MA 02143[EMAIL PROTECTED] 617-666-0017http://web.mit.edu/krr/www/ They can try to bind our arms, But they cannot chain our minds or hearts... - Stratovarius -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v0.9.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE3xxE+66jzSko6g9wRAt3RAJwJjw5ZD+7MoYlDjPCy9RM5+gxc/gCfTzk/ fsKRkQ3Ntm0l74wVYqmXYbQ= =IngN -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
Signal 11 [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Well, about 25% of people are NT on the myers-briggs, if I recall correctly. Would that it were so. All the figures I've seen are 3-5%. -- a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr"Eric S. Raymond/a A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -- Robert A. Heinlein Time Enough for Love
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
"Eric S. Raymond" wrote: Well, about 25% of people are NT on the myers-briggs, if I recall correctly. Would that it were so. All the figures I've seen are 3-5%. That's just for the ?NT? types. If you'd like, I could look up the exact figures for you. This spring I had to give a speech on career planning, which included some information on myers-briggs. -- Signal 11, BOFH to the UF list and malign.net "I just got a cold shiver down my back." -- Klinger
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
Mark Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I suspect that the NF people would also have some affinity for the ideals of free software. Unfortunately, there aren't many of them in either business management or technical fields. I agree on both counts. NFs tend to be artists and mystics. They're a rare type, too. -- a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr"Eric S. Raymond/a The end move in politics is always to pick up a gun. -- R. Buckminster Fuller
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
Bojay Iversen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "Eric S. Raymond" wrote: Hackers *are* ?NT?. That's my point. I don't know what else you thought I meant by XNTX. No no, there are 4 possible ?NT? types, which when combined together have a total mindshare of about 25%. If each of them had 3-5%, then the totals would be from 12-20%. Like i said - I'd be willing to look it up for you if you want the exact figures.. Basic arithmetic aside, this page at least has some numbers: http://userpages.itis.com/paulaf/intj.html. namely: INTJ(1%), INTP(1%), ENTP(5%), and ENTJ(5%) Authoritative? I don't know. But it looks to be put up by an INTJ, and they don't lie. ;-) intj, so I guess I'm a hacker, matt
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
Kyle Rose wrote: The real challenge is in getting them to see profit in working with the community while discouraging parasitism on their part. I don't see you doing this. This is precisely what Eric does. Companies want "protect" intellectual property they have invested a significant amount of time and money into developing. Hence the sudden wide variety of licenses. As we all know the licenses that are not truly free will get ignored by the community and nothing will happen. Eric has assidiously tried to convince companies that open is better by trying to get them to adapt one of the recognized open licenses. Their legal counsel sometimes disagrees and takes their own stab at a license. Although the magnitude is different, what you are doing is analagous to making deals with a serial killer where you get something in return for providing him with victims. I don't see this as a very honorable way of doing business, even if what you get back ultimately benefits society as a whole. The ends do not justify the means. This is a "straw man" argument. Working with a business is not akin to working with a serial killer. If a company wants to release something under the Bobzilla Public License they are certainly free to do so. Whether or not that is the wisest decision for the software is another thing entirely. I agree with Richard: I would rather live in a community of ideals, even if it were a lot smaller and less functional (in a compatibility- with-the-outside-world sense). Encroaching decadence will never be a trait of _my_ community, no matter how enticing the price/performance ratio looks. I neither need nor want to deal with "reality" if it means I have to engage in this sort of behavior. You can live in the small community of free software and never leave it. Certainly no one has forced Richard to compromise his ideals or the ideals of many of the people involved with the FSF. Freeing software takes time and businesses have to make certain changes culturally in order for this to happen. They can't simply can't release their "crown jewels" without some assurance that it won't put them out of business. Businesses have mundane concerns such as payroll, healthcare, facilities and equipment to maintain. They cannot by nature move as quickly a single developer or a development team since a misstep means that you don't meet payroll with all the effects that has (mortgages are missed, people don't eat etc). I have watched this debate on this list for some time and really the problem is that Eric and Richard will never agree because their world views are different. Richards is a deontological world view. He believes that software should be free and not freeing is a bad thing. Deontological views believe in a absolute systems of morals and ideals. Eric has a consequentialist world view, which mean actions (such as software licensing) are only evil in their effects (ie a Windows monopoly on the desktop.) This deontological/consequentialist split runs through a number of issues (abortion, capitol punishment, war name an issue and its split this way.) Richard recognizes their split over "issues of principals." The problem is that to successfully run a revolution you need both types of people - those with unyieldng ideals and those who try to carry the ideals to world and make them work as broadly as possible. It also seems inevitable that there is conflict between these two. Dealing with businesses building systems for them using free software I tend to be a consequentialist. That said I would rather live in a world where all software was free, so I fight for it every day by changing the minds of merchants and businesses I deal with. -- Brian DeSpain http://www.bravenewworlds.com Technical Consultants Business Development Electronic Commerce Toll-Free: 800.631.2527 Fax Number: 626.584.9364
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
On Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 04:57:01PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: You know, I think that this is where I must totally disagree with you. Your contention that corporations have no notion of civic duty is both a simple minded stereotype and fundamentally untrue. The notion of shared public infrastructures is neither new nor unappetizing to large organizations. If you're so smart, why aren't *you* the person the Wall Street Journal calls? Ah ha, I see. So you are saying that corporations have no notion of civic duty because you are quoted in the Wall Street Journal? I guess I should have spent less time building free software based systems for Fortune 500 businesses and more time on the phone to the press. Wake up, man. The percentage of people who can be reached by arguments that aren't founded in selfishness is *tiny*. You and I both happen to be among them -- but I know I'm in a minority, and you apparently don't. So we should recast our movement in their selfish minded terms? I think perhaps you are the one who is asleep, and dreaming to boot. You delude yourself as to the true forces at work here. The press is the distorted reflection of reality, not the other way around. You were a convenient interpreter for these events, not a messiah. In 1993 you could already buy production Linux CDs off the shelf of retail stores, complete with X, gcc, emacs and all sorts of other gadgets. Thousands of programmers and millions of users rapidly swept into the movement because of sheer interest in Linux as a way to solve problems and have fun. Several years later, you came and wrote a fairly interesting paper detailing this process and subsequently took credit for it having occured. Free software is a shared infrastructure, just like spoken and written languages. It propogates because it is a convenient tool for manipulating and passing information and because its replication is less resource intensive than its benefits. It is a weather pattern, it is a storm that was waiting for the right set of initial conditions. You are like a weather man trying to take credit for the hurricane. If you want to blame anyone, you can blame Stallman for doing the rain dance on faith for years before the shit hit the ground. Or, if you feel pragmatic you could blame Andreesen for trying to take Netscape back to its roots after it became Wall Street's golden child. Of course, you'll take credit for persuading Netscape as well. Never mind the fact that it started out free. I would stop arguing with you, but its so much fun! -- __ Ean Schuessler A guy running Linux Novare International Inc. A company running Linux *** WARNING: This signature may contain jokes.
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Why is our freedom to hack important to corporations? The answer is it isn't and they couldn't care less. Then I don't want them around. They should only get to play with us on mutually agreeable terms. Others are free to consort with the devil; I will retain my principles. By making the arguments the way Eric does is that it becomes palatable to corporations and the other freedoms we get are sorta slid in under the radar. That's exactly what I don't want. When the other freedoms aren't made clear, we end up with Qt, SCSL, and Al Gore's pages associated with "our" movement (which really isn't "our" movement, but I digress...) The free marketplace of ideas in the free software community assures that really pig-headed ideas don't fly very far. The Qt semi-free license got pretty far before it was shot down; and the new QPL _still_ sucks! That is a _perfect_ example of how the principles of the community which are not spelled out in legalese are taken advantage of. This is precisely why the principles of freedom should be stressed. Kyle - -- Kyle R. RoseMIT LCS NE43-309, Cambridge, MA 18 Leland Street Apt. 1 617-253-5883 Somerville, MA 02143[EMAIL PROTECTED] 617-666-0017http://web.mit.edu/krr/www/ In order to dial out, it is necessary to broaden one's dimension. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v0.9.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE3xzTz66jzSko6g9wRAsnkAKDLclFYXMApZIaWnYqy+UhejzZnGACeIgWU vCFf/XEW7A6DT8UzgGkqKn4= =O6QZ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
Eric S. Raymond scripsit: Hackers *are* ?NT?. That's my point. I don't know what else you thought I meant by XNTX. The Keirsey Temperament site (www.keirsey.com) says that ?NT? are about 5% of the general population, but about 15% of those who have take the Keirsey test *online*. -- John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
Ean R . Schuessler scripsit: Several years later, you came and wrote a fairly interesting paper detailing this process So he did. and subsequently took credit for it having occured. Where? Sources, please. If you want to blame anyone, you can blame Stallman for doing the rain dance on faith for years before the shit hit the ground. Eric openly praised Stallman for this. Or, if you feel pragmatic you could blame Andreesen for trying to take Netscape back to its roots after it became Wall Street's golden child. Of course, you'll take credit for persuading Netscape as well. Never mind the fact that it started out free. What started out free? Mosaic was freely available but not Open Source. Netscape doesn't contain any Mosaic code; it's Internet Exploder that contains (licensed) Mosaic code. I would stop arguing with you, but its so much fun! Instead, use the energy to convince a CEO or two. See the linux-advocacy HOWTO. -- John Cowan [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
OK, everybody out of the pool! This ain't about licenses, and it ain't a discussion! Can you all just drop the [EMAIL PROTECTED] off the CC line and go share your acronyms elsewhere. I concur, although I have found this to be an exceptionally interesting discussion that has led me to greater self-awareness. =) .. kris
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
Ean R . Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So we should recast our movement in their selfish minded terms? Now you're getting it, maybe. Yes, we should. Not because we necessarily think in those terms ourselves, but because that's how you get the job of persuasion most effectively. Several years later, you came and wrote a fairly interesting paper detailing this process and subsequently took credit for it having occured. Ean, you have the option of ceasing to sound like an idiot at any time. But you still will as long as you keep making claims like this that are (a) ad hominem, and (b) easily refuted by anybody who actually who has actually read what I wrote, then and since. -- a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr"Eric S. Raymond/a Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? -- Thomas Jefferson, in his 1801 inaugural address
Re: Basics of Evangelism
According to Eric S. Raymond: Ean R . Schuessler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So we should recast our movement in their selfish minded terms? Now you're getting it, maybe. Yes, we should. It's a basic rule of evangelism that you must start with common ground. Consider Paul's discourse to the Athenians. Both as a Jew and as a Christian, Paul would have found the thousands of images in Athens disgusting. Yet he began thus (quote from memory, hence inexact): "I perceive that you are more given to the fear of the deities than others are. For example, while passing along and observing your objects of veneration, I found an inscription: 'To An Unknown God.' It is this God that I am publishing to you today." Find common ground. Cast your argument in terms acceptable to the audience. Only with such a beginning can you, eventually, persuade. -- Chip Salzenberg - a.k.a. - [EMAIL PROTECTED] "When do you work?" "Whenever I'm not busy."
Re: Basics of Evangelism
Chip Salzenberg wrote: Find common ground. Cast your argument in terms acceptable to the audience. Only with such a beginning can you, eventually, persuade. I have also found that focusing on business problem solutions is a great way to go. Ask them about internal processes. What exactly is the problem they have and how your solution solves it. After demonstrating how your solutions solves your problem I often tell them,"And of course you get all the source code so that you can hire a programmer to make changes if we would ever go out of business." Quite a few times their eyes light up at that point they say,"That's a great idea. That way we aren't dependent on a single vendor." They have just taken the first step to understanding open source. -- Brian DeSpain http://www.bravenewworlds.com Technical Consultants Business Development Electronic Commerce Toll-Free: 800.631.2527 Fax Number: 626.584.9364
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
Ian Grigg wrote: OK, everybody out of the pool! This ain't about licenses, and it ain't a discussion! No, but it's the most activity I've seen on this list in a long time. Besides, I rather enjoy reading the comments between ESR and the world... even if he did call me a "member of the idiot chorus". :) So... FOO! -- Signal 11, BOFH to the UF list and malign.net "The power to tax is the power to destroy" - Chief Justice T. Marshall
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
Bojay Iversen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And the papers he has published are an attempt to define what makes the whole thing tick so that an average person (suit?) can understand it. Actually they didn't start out with even *that* much ambition. When I was writing CatB I had in mind an internal audience only -- I was just as astonished as everybody else at the Netscape thing. More, maybe. Somebody else could have written CatB. Somebody else could have done my selling job to the suits. And, in fact, I think similar developments were pretty much inevitable within a few years after the Great Internet Explosion of 1993-1994. Or, at least, that's what I tell myself to try to keep my head from swelling ;-). Historians have been arguing for three centuries over whether the times make the man or the man makes the times. Having been there for at least one critical pivot point, I can report that the answer is "yes" :-). I've felt all along like the author of CatB was in some sense an invention of the hacker tribe -- that taking "credit" for it would be nearly as silly as a fish taking credit for discovering the existence of water. On the other hand, *I* made "open source" happen. These things are never simple. -- a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr"Eric S. Raymond/a Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. -- Abraham Lincoln
Re: Essay RFC delayed.
"Eric S. Raymond" wrote: happen. These things are never simple. No, they aren't. I don't care who gets the credit - you, richard, bruce - it doesn't matter to me. What I do care about is the community that has sprung up around the ideals of freedom of software and freedom of information. As a member of this community, I want to see it succeed. As a member of society, I want people everywhere to reap the fruits of our labor. We all helped open the door to a brave new world. A world where you have all the blueprints to build it, tinker with it, and most importantly - improve on it. I want to live in that world - desperately. I like tinkering with things. I'm the kind of person that takes things apart, just to see how they work. I can't tell you how many VCRs I took apart to figure out how the tape winds around all those cylinders, or how many late nights I spent wondering around campus tracing down wires just to see where they went. Not everybody has that kind of curiosity. Infact, I've found very few people have it. Eric, you're the bridge between us and them. Don't go and burn that bridge down because a few people disagree with how you built it. I hope I didn't come off as being too terribly utopian. ;) I'm young and inexperienced. As such, I welcome any thoughts anybody here might have. -- Signal 11, BOFH to the UF list and malign.net "Once I take over the world, remind me to snub you." Brain
