RE: [Fwd: Germany]
From: Ravicher, Daniel B. [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] The rest of the world does provide these automatic warranties, but we at least let intelligent people bargain them out of a contract. Why should I be forced to pay for a warranty I don't want or need? [DJW:] I seem to remember that there are actually different rules in the UK for members of the public (consumers) and businesses; at least at one time, I believe this is one of the reasons why businesses were reluctant to sell specialist products direct. (Businesses being assumed to understand what they are buying.) [DJW:] [IANAL] -- --- DISCLAIMER - Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of BTS.
RE: [Fwd: Germany]
-Original Message- From: David Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 4:53 PM To: Ravicher, Daniel B.; Angelo Schneider; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Fwd: Germany] But are they really explicitly disclaimed? Or does one have to open up the shrink wrapped box in order to discover that there are no warranties. The disclaimer is on the outside of the box. But not disclosing a disclaimer of warranty at time of sale is tantamount to fraud. You can sell as many copies of warranty-less BS Office as you want, and you'll have no problem with me. So long as the customer is made aware of that warranty-less state at the time of sale. Agreed. Their can be no bargain based on fraud. However, if I do tell you there's no warranty, I won't hear you complain later. It's the decision of the consumer to purchase a warranty or not. [Have you ever tried getting out of Circuit City after buying a new electronic without them trying to push on you some "extended warranty plan"?] The only time the courts should be involved is when the consumer sues the producer for fraud. An example would be BS Inc representing BS Office as a merchantible product when it is clearly not. I don't expect you to offer a warranty with your rust-bucket used Pinto. However, if you represent to me that there is nothing wrong with your old Pinot, and it collapses in a heap ten feet out of your driveway, I want my money back. The courts step in if we cannot subsequently agree on a resolution. Perhaps there indeed was nothing wrong with your Pinto until thirty secons after the sale was finalized. Perhaps you were fully cognizant that it was a piece of crap and outright lied to me. Complete agreement. I'm not arguing that you can't sell software without a warranty. But if you do you need to disclose to the school that your software is not warrantied to be fit for any purpose. Or in other words, make it clear to them that "all sales are final". Agreed again. But once I tell them "no warranties; as is" they can't complain later when the software crashes. But warranty is not support! As a school administrator, if you were going to sell me your software for $1 but couldn't even see your way to offering a money-back warranty, I would be very suspicious. If the software doesn't work, I'm not going to ask you to spend 100 man hours trying to fix it, I only want my $1 back. Your suspicions indicate an educated consumer who might be willing to pay more money for $1 back guarantee [for that matter, you might even be willing to pay even more for a 100 man hour warranty]. Shouldn't you have that choice? -- David Johnson ___ http://www.usermode.org === This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To reply to our email administrator directly, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] BROBECK PHLEGER HARRISON LLP http://www.brobeck.com
RE: Germany
Dave J Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Alexander Eichler [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] in US, it needs copyright law to act like it does. Conclusion is, that GPL is only a possibility to give the right to use to somebody else. Copyright beneath this still exists. So GPL is a license agreement. As any other [DJW:] GPL is founded on copyright. In fact, I've heard that the FSF will insist that copyright ownership is made very clear before accepting something under the Gnu banner. If you are not the copyright owner you have no possibility of assigning any copyright statement to software, nor do you have the right to grant the various permissions that the GPL is meant to guarantee. This does not prevent the GPL from simultaneously being a contract between the copyright holder and the would-be modifier or distributer. [...] Cheers, Ben _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
[OT] Warranties
On Monday 29 January 2001 03:00 am, Angelo Schneider wrote: I completely agree. In fact, my political views are on the extreme side of Laissez Faire :-) But not disclosing a disclaimer of warranty at time of sale is tantamount to fraud. You can sell as many copies of warranty-less BS Office as you want, and you'll have no problem with me. So long as the customer is made aware of that warranty-less state at the time of sale. I completly dissagree: what about a medical? He may use any cure? Regardless if it is applicable under the circumstances of his patient? Now we're leaving the realm of Open Source and entering the ever acrimonious domain of Political Economy. Setting aside my innate distrust of any physician who actually offers a guarantee, let me just bring to your attention one possible scenario: Joe Patient is dying of cancer and he hears of an experimental cure... This sounds silly to me, especialy if you try to hold the rights of the seller higher than the rights of that one who feels the need to buy from him. The rights of the the seller and buyer are absolutely equal. The are both human beings, and in my world view (which differs from my government's) all human beings possess the exact same rights regardless of their economic status. A commercial transaction cannot be legal without a voluntary agreement by both sides. If one or the other side agrees involuntarily (such as through fraud), that is a criminal matter, and nothing to do with warrantees. -- David Johnson ___ http://www.usermode.org
