Re: contributor/user split in docs

[Graham Percival]

On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 01:22:47AM +0100, John Mandereau wrote:
> Le vendredi 02 janvier 2009 à 18:52 -0800, Graham Percival a écrit :
> > I'll have the pdf on my
> > website for GOP, and after the first few weeks, this document
> > shouldn't be changing much, so the normal stable release will be
> > fine.
> 
> IMHO a few weeks won't be enough for stabilizing the Guide, but I guess
> this will be no problem you upload the conributors' guide to
> lilypond.org, a simple cron job could do.

IMO the "stabilized" guide is once we have the info that's
currently in all the README.txt files and the website.  I've
already covered the devel info from web/, so now all we need is
the CG stub in Documentation/devel/ and me to process the doc, 
translator, and frog READMEs.

Plus another 2 weeks of build system debugging, more READMEs
found, anything from the wiki, etc.  But really, if it isn't in a
presentable state (ie worth telling to Frogs to look at it) in 3
weeks, it'll be because I get arrested at the border for having
long hair and using linux.

BTW, my first flight tomorrow is 13 hours, and the seats have
power.  So I'll have plenty of material to commit as soon as I
have an internet connection in Singapore.  :)


> [Off-topic below]
> 
> > I keep all my svn/git checkouts on /sd, of course.  I suppose
> > there's plenty of disk space to compile stuff on it, but...
> > 630 Mhz.
> 
> This is the frequency in idle state, it should increase to 900 MHz every
> time the CPU becomes busy.

I've heard that it requires changing an option on the bios.  IIRC,
it didn't kick up to 900 mhz when I compiled a project for 45
minutes.

> >   And I don't like pushing the hardware on this thing, since
> >   I'm in serious trouble if anything happens to it.
> 
> Unless you can't easily apply the vendor warranty nor find cheap
> components for replacement, I wouldn't make worry about pushing
> the hardware if I were you; but I can understand you'd like to
> be careful...  for example I don't know how quickly you'd reach
> the SD write count limit with intensive usage.

It's over a year old so I'm pretty sure it's not under warranty.
Besides, that's not the issue -- this will be my only
communication with my family and friends.  I'd rather spend a day
without food than spend a day without email.

Now, when building this system I kept careful notes of what files
I changed, what packages I installed, and make a shell script to
do everything.  So in theory, I could buy a new eeepc, run my
script, and assuming I had a good internet connection, have my
computer back to normal in an hour... but I'd rather never have to
use that.  :)

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: Frog mailing list

[Graham Percival]

Discussion isn't on -devel, and won't be on -devel.  That's my
experience with GDP; it takes months for people ot feel
comfortable posting here.
I might even argue that discussion *shouldn't* take place on
-devel, but since I'm leaving in less than 12 hours, this isn't
the time to start it.  :)(short argument: new contributors
don't feel comfortable posting here, and it's not productive to
force them to do so.)


Carl: either manage it privately (just CCing the relevant people;
some mail clients make it very easy to create your own groups of
emails), or make a mailist on some free provider (IIRC google can
do this for you).  Don't rely on saving archives, and don't rely
on being able to point to previous emails.

In some ways, this is good, since it'll force you to update the CG
whenever there's more questions about development.  Of course,
that only applies after the CG is added to the buildscripts.  And
even then, you'll still be repeating the same info a couple of
times.

Cheers,
- Graham


On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 09:45:34PM -0200, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
> Let's keep the traffic on devel for now - when it gets too much, we
> can always create the list later.
> 
> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Carl D. Sorensen  wrote:
> > What would it take create a lilypond-frog mailing list at savannah?  I
> > apparently don't have the rights to do so, but I think it might be useful to
> > separate frog traffic from devel.
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Carl
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Han-Wen Nienhuys - han...@xs4all.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen
> 
> 
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Moving communication to lilypond-devel@gnu.org

[Carl D. Sorensen]

Dear Frogs,

I spoke with Han-Wen about the possibility of creating a lilypond-frogs
mailing list to carry frog communication.  Instead, he requested that we
have the frog communication on lilypond-devel.

Please sign up for the lilypond-devel mailing list at


In the future, please make sure your communications with me are copied to
lilypond-devel.

Thanks,

Carl



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Re: bugfix patch reviewing

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 1/4/09 3:46 PM, "Han-Wen Nienhuys"  wrote:

> Changes which look innocuous can cause problems in other areas. I'd
> like to request that the frogmeister be responsible for running each
> change through the regression test, ie.
> 
>   git checkout pristine
>   make test-baseline
>   git-apply-patch bugfix
>   make check
> 
> For the rest, the patches should be reviewed, and in the case of
> bugfixes, accompanied by a regtest file;  I trust Carl's judgement to
> not apply what he is not comfortable with.
> 

OK, I can do this.

I assume "pristine" is a branch that tracks origin/master.  Is that correct?

Carl



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Re: Mensural style

[Juergen Reuter]

On Sun, 4 Jan 2009, Trevor Daniels wrote:


BTW, the term "accidental style" appears twice in the documentation with a
completely different meaning:
- in 1.1.3, meaning the way how to display and reset accidentals


In the detailed explanation they are named "rules" so I propose to
always call them "accidental rules" and remove the word "styles" from
the whole section.


Hmm.  Unfortunately the function is called set-accidental-style,
so calling them "rules" might be just as confusing.


- in 2.8.3, meaning the graphical appearance of accidentals


If we do the latter, this can be kept as "accidental styles" or be
augmented with "graphic accidental styles".


I think changing the description here to "glyph" might be
better, since the override here already uses "glyph-name...".

So "The style for accidentals and key signatures is ..." would become
"The glyphs used for accidentals and key signatures are ..."



The "Accidental" property "style" has only recently been replaced by a new 
property "glyph-name-alist".  Apart from that, Lily almost consistently 
uses the term "style" for choosing between different sets of related 
glyphs:


- a "style" property is available and documented at least for each of the 
grobs "Notehead", "Rest" and "TimeSignature";


- a property "flag-style" is available and documented for "Stem" grobs;

- clef styles for the \clef command are documented in Sect. 2.8.3 and 
2.8.4.


I heavily vote for sticking to this naming convention as consistently as 
possible.


Best wishes,
Juergen


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Re: Frog mailing list

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

Let's keep the traffic on devel for now - when it gets too much, we
can always create the list later.

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Carl D. Sorensen  wrote:
> What would it take create a lilypond-frog mailing list at savannah?  I
> apparently don't have the rights to do so, but I think it might be useful to
> separate frog traffic from devel.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carl
>
>
>
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>



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Re: Updates to fret-diagrams

[hanwenn]

I agree with joe that there is a lot of duplicate here; it must be
possible to rewrite this more tightly.

That said, the fret-diagram code is completely your domain, so it's your
call.


http://codereview.appspot.com/11857/diff/1/4
File scm/fret-diagrams.scm (right):

http://codereview.appspot.com/11857/diff/1/4#newcode189
Line 189: (let* ((sth (* th size))
this indent is broken.

Also, I used to write rather abbreviated var names like sth, but I now
think it is better to be more verbose.  However, it looks as if sth is
not used at all.

http://codereview.appspot.com/11857


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Re: Keep git-update-changelog.py?

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

Please junk

On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:31 AM, John Mandereau
 wrote:
> Do we want to keep buildscripts/git-update-changelog.py?
>
> This script was designed to update Savannah CVS with changes made in
> git.or.cz Git repository during the transition between the two revision
> systems.  We no longer need this script for this purpose, but with a bit
> of hacking we could still use it to generate a ChangeLog for changes
> made since 2.10.  However, I don't think a ChangeLog would be really
> useful: IMO curious people should install Git, download the Git
> repository and browse the Git history, which is much more powerful than
> reading a ChangeLog.
>
> In brief, I'm for removing this script from current sources.  Please
> complain if you disagree.
>
> Best,
> John
>
>
>
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Re: 2.12.1 out; announcements and normal stable

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Graham Percival
 wrote:

>> > The text announcement to info-lilypond should be already out, and
>> > should appear in the archives soon:
>> > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-lilypond/
>>
>> It hasn't: you might want to ask Han-Wen to add the posting permission
>> for your address.
>
> Huh.  I expected to get a mail bounce, then... I got a few from
> other lists (or just "waiting for a moderator").

I've added you (gper...@gmail / gra...@percival-music ) to the sender
filters. Please send again, as I think the filters devnull everything
that is not from trusted senders.

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Re: bugfix patch reviewing

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

Changes which look innocuous can cause problems in other areas. I'd
like to request that the frogmeister be responsible for running each
change through the regression test, ie.

  git checkout pristine
  make test-baseline
  git-apply-patch bugfix
  make check

For the rest, the patches should be reviewed, and in the case of
bugfixes, accompanied by a regtest file;  I trust Carl's judgement to
not apply what he is not comfortable with.


On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 12:40 AM, Graham Percival
 wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> How much oversight should the Frog patches receive?  These patches
> have been reviewed by Carl.  They compile cleanly, adhere to our
> code standards (to the extent that Carl understands them), and
> appear to fix the bug.
>
> I see three proposals:
> 1)  Let Carl commit whatever patches he has reviewed.
>
> 2)  Require that each patch be reviewed by a "Core developer"
> (Han-Wen, Jan, or Joe).
>
> 3)  Let Carl commit whatever he's fairly certain is good, and ask
> for help with whatever he doesn't understand.  If somebody like
> Werner or Reinhold says "sure, looks ok", then he goes ahead and
> commits.
>
>
> I would *really* like the turnaround to be 3 days or less.  One of
> the reasons that GDP worked so well is that contributers received
> prompt feedback; it's very disheartening to have your work waiting
> in limbo for a week.
>
> I know that option #2 with a 3-day turnaround places more burden
> on the core developers, but I'm hoping that it would be worth it.
> After a few months of being the FrogMeister, Carl should be
> familiar enough with lilypond that he can approve + commit simple
> patches on his own.  By the end of GOP, we should have enough
> people knowing enough about lilypond that we should be safe from
> the dreaded open source "Getting Hit By A Bus(tm)" phenominum.
>
> (aside: a quick google search reveals that this phrase is common
> in North American businesses.  The first time I heard it was from
> Linus Torvalds, so I assumed it was an open-source thing.)
>
> Cheers,
> - Graham
>



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Frog mailing list

[Carl D. Sorensen]

What would it take create a lilypond-frog mailing list at savannah?  I
apparently don't have the rights to do so, but I think it might be useful to
separate frog traffic from devel.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Carl



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Re: Mensural style

[Trevor Daniels]

Francisco Vila wrote Monday, December 29, 2008 10:49 AM



2008/12/29 Stefan Waler :
BTW, the term "accidental style" appears twice in the documentation with 
a

completely different meaning:
- in 1.1.3, meaning the way how to display and reset accidentals


In the detailed explanation they are named "rules" so I propose to
always call them "accidental rules" and remove the word "styles" from
the whole section.


Hmm.  Unfortunately the function is called set-accidental-style,
so calling them "rules" might be just as confusing.


- in 2.8.3, meaning the graphical appearance of accidentals


If we do the latter, this can be kept as "accidental styles" or be
augmented with "graphic accidental styles".


I think changing the description here to "glyph" might be
better, since the override here already uses "glyph-name...".

So "The style for accidentals and key signatures is ..." would become
"The glyphs used for accidentals and key signatures are ..."

Trevor



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Re: About Learning Manual

[Reinhold Kainhofer]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Am Sonntag, 4. Januar 2009 15:08:48 schrieb Sawada, Yoshiki:
> I am using Ubuntu 8.10.

Me too.

> I found texi2html ver. 1.78 by "sudo apt-get install texi2html", but I
> do not know how to install texi2html ver. 1.79 into Ubuntu.

texi2html 1.80 has been released a few days ago (1.79 was the development 
version; we need it for our nice documentation layout, which does not work 
with older versions, since we are heavily customizing the html generation and 
many features were implemented on our request).
http://www.nongnu.org/texi2html/

AFAIK, there is no ubuntu package for this new version, yet. However, you can 
do:

cvs -d:pserver:anonym...@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/sources/texi2html checkout \
 texi2html
cd texi2html
./autogen.sh
make

and then add a link to the texi2html script to e.g. ~/bin/

cd ~/bin
ln -s ~/texi2html/texi2html texi2html

And then add that path to you PATH environment variable (if it is not included 
in the PATH already):
export PATH=~/bin:$PATH

You can do this e.g. in your ~/.bashrc or ~/.bash_profile

> And "MetaPost" for "mpost" is not found by "sudo apt-get install metapost".

reinh...@einstein:~$ dlocate -S bin/mpost
texlive-metapost: /usr/bin/mpost

So you'll have to install the texlive-metapost package...

Cheers,
Reinhold
- -- 
- --
Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/
 * Financial & Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria
 * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886
 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

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Re: About Learning Manual

[John Mandereau]

On 2009/01/04 14:08 +, Sawada, Yoshiki wrote:
> Yes, it is my hope to provide LilyPond community with my translation.
> I am not a professional for music or translation, so my Japanese
> document is not so good. But I hope someone will brush it up.

You may want to contact Yoshinobu Ishizaki 
who has translated lilypond.org.  I hope including your translation in
LilyPond will bring you more suggestions and contributions.


> WARNING: Please consider install optional programs:  texi2html >= 1.79
> (installed: 1.78)

You can find Texi2html 1.80 (for Texi2html odd numbers mean "get the
sources from CVS") at
http://savannah.nongnu.org/download/texi2html/
Note that because of a version control nitpick, a new release of
Texi2html (1.82) will be out in a few days.

After untarring it, the usual trio

./configure
make
make install

will install it (you may need to do "chmod +x configure" first).  It is
recommended to install packages from sources in $HOME or /usr/local
instead of /usr, --prefix option of configure script allows you to do
it, "./configure --help" documents more options.


> ERROR: Please install required programs: mpost
> 

> I am using Ubuntu 8.10.

To get mpost you must install a TeX distribution, I hope Texlive is
available for Ubuntu, otherwise you can either install the old and no
longer maintained teTeX distribution or download Texlive DVD ISO image.

Best,
John



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Missing 128th note flags in 2.12.1

[Neil Puttock]

Hi everybody,

Though Max's patch for 128th note flags precedes 2.12.1, it's missing
from the docs, both on lilypond.org and kainhofer.com (the news entry
just shows a long stem).

I've just downloaded 2.12.1 on XP and it's clear that the fonts are
out of date, since lilypond complains:

warning: flag `u7' not found

Shouldn't a new release be a full clean build, including fonts?

Cheers,
Neil


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Re: About Learning Manual

[Sawada , Yoshiki]

Hello, John, Carl and everyone.

Thank you for your replys.

> Stencils have an x-extent and a y-extent.  Each extent is a pair, 
> listingthe lowest coordinate and the highest coordinate.
>
> So imagine that there is a rectangle that goes from (-1,-2) to (3,4). 
> This would have an x-extent of (-1 . 3) and a y-extent of (-2 . 4).

It is the good explanation. I can understand it.


> That's on the TODO list.  Somebody will eventually get to it.
> Perhaps I'll assign that task to a new Frog.

I understand it too. If I find a good example for Appendix B.1, I will
tell you.


> Would you like it to be included in LilyPond sources for inclusion
> in the official documentation?

Yes, it is my hope to provide LilyPond community with my translation.
I am not a professional for music or translation, so my Japanese
document is not so good. But I hope someone will brush it up.


Now, I am stuck at "./autogen.sh" of following instruction:
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=lilypond.git;a=blob_plain;f=Documentation/TRANSLATION;hb=lilypond/translation

It says:

...
WARNING: Please consider install optional programs:  texi2html >= 1.79
(installed: 1.78)

ERROR: Please install required programs: mpost
...


I am using Ubuntu 8.10.
I found texi2html ver. 1.78 by "sudo apt-get install texi2html", but I
do not know how to install texi2html ver. 1.79 into Ubuntu.
And "MetaPost" for "mpost" is not found by "sudo apt-get install metapost".
Someone help me, please.

Thanks,

Sawada, Yoshiki




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Re: LM master?

[Trevor Daniels]

Graham Percival wrote Sunday, January 04, 2009 10:10 AM


On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 10:00:58AM -, Trevor Daniels wrote:


Graham, you wrote Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:19 PM


Oh, one idea: since the templates are available in the Snippet
List, and since we assume that users have all pdfs (and the new
website will make sure of this), how do you feel about removing
the templates?


It makes sense.  They could be referenced in both the
LM and NR as @rlsr{template}, keeping them readily available
in html without increasing the pdf page count.


As long as the pdf files are in the same directory, @rlsr{} should
produce working links in pdf as well.  At least, it works in xpdf
and IIRC apple's Preview app.  I'm not certain about adobe reader,
but I'd be surprised if it didn't work there too.


Well, it partly works.  There is one problem, though:

Clicking on (for example) Snippets: Section "Pitches" in Snippets
on page 2 of the NR takes you to the pitches snippet list, but
then clicking on the link back to Pitches at the top of that
snippet list, "These snippets illustrate Section "Pitches" in 
Notation Reference", fails with a "file cannot be found error".
There is then no way back to the NR.  

As a workaround you can choose to open the snippet list in a 
new window.  Fortunately, but rather perversely, once the 
snippet window is open choosing to open another snippet link 
in a new window actually uses the existing snippet window 
rather than opening another one.


Trevor

always 



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Re: gub3 LDFLAGS error

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Op donderdag 01-01-2009 om 13:46 uur [tijdzone -0800], schreef Graham
Percival:

> Yes, but I see that there's still some LD_LIBRARY_PATH in
> gub/tools.py from the online git version -- lines 31 and 69.

Removing this works for a clean build of mingw:: and linux-64::lilypond
on linux-64, so I've pushed this change.  We'll have to see if it works 
for all other platforms and openoffice too...

Jan.

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Re: SCons support in LilyPond

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Op zaterdag 03-01-2009 om 11:58 uur [tijdzone -0800], schreef Graham
Percival:

> I had great success converting another project to cmake last Aug,
> but this isn't anything I'd attempt with my current situation.  I
> might propose it for 2.15 or 2.17 (next fall or sometime next
> year), though.

Hmm.  Two years ago I had great success converting a cmake project to 
autotools.  Maybe things have changed, but at the time some of my
reasons to drop cmake were

  * used a home-grown MACRO language, which
  * was mostly undocumented (half-baken proprietary documentation in hardcopy 
was available) and buggy
  * had nasty differences between builtin (c-made) and user-built macros
  * had error prone dependency generation, one of the (at least) two reasons for
  * often leaving the build tree in a broken state after ^C
  * generates makefiles (adding an evil level of caching; one of the reasons
for us to reject automake) that easily go stale (unlike automake: often
unnoticed)
  * mostly ignored common unix standards (not to mention GNU standards that
LilyPond must provide) (clean/install/prefix/DESTDIR)
  * had no provision for package-config to find libraries, but
  * used /usr/bin/find (instead of gcc-based tests) to guess/find libraries
  * used hard-coded /usr to start the search, making
  * cross compiling (instead of mostly automagic: autotools) next to 
impossible, 
and would also
  * barf when multiple versions of libraries are present below /usr

Have things changed?

Jan.

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Re: SCons support in LilyPond

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Op zondag 04-01-2009 om 00:39 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef John
Mandereau:

> I'm afraid it is too late to resurrect SCons, or too early if you
> prefer.

Yes, quite possibly.  SCons has been the new great promising
end all solution for Make for a few years too many, maybe.
Having said that, past summer had a grand gsoc project to
add autoconf/automake compatibility, which can be used to
drop much custom hacked-up stuff from the lilypond SConstruct.

> I remember a number of packages used a so-called revolutionary
> program named SCons, I no longer encounter it.  Maybe it's superior to
> stepmake system, but we recently consolidated the makefiles enough (e.g.
> support for -j make flag, cleaning up documentation compilation) so that
> we can concentrate on other problems.

Yes, and that's valuable too.  SCons is still making progress, possibly
in a few years time...

> I will include this removal in the patch that splits stuff in
> buildscripts.

Ok.

Jan.

-- 
Jan Nieuwenhuizen  | GNU LilyPond - The music typesetter
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jantien   | http://www.lilypond.org



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