Re: patch: tablature and MultiMeasureRestNumber
On 10/16/09 2:04 AM, "Trevor Daniels" wrote: >> > > Thanks Marc - pushed to origin/master. > > (Hope that's OK, Carl) Perfect! I've been off the web, so haven't been able to respond. Thanks! Carl > > Trevor > > > > ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: final testing for 2.13.6
On 2009-10-19, at 16:23 , Patrick McCarty wrote: On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Graham Percival wrote: On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 05:21:17PM +0100, Trevor Daniels wrote: Downloads, installs and runs fine. convert-ly seems fine too. The desktop icon fails, though. Clicking it just flashes a Command Prompt window, too fast to see a message. I think this has been the case for some time, at least on my system (I never have need to use it normally, of course). Bloody mao, we fixed that last week. :/ ok, this 2.13.6 is cancelled. I'll take another look at it tomorrow. The two darwin builds seem to work okay on Leopard, after a quick test. For Snow Leopard, you already know what to expect, but just to make it official: Layout output to `cello.ps'... error: unsupported font format: /Library/Fonts/Optima.ttc make: *** [out/ZH-ordered/pdf/cello.pdf] Error 1 First time: real 67m54.306s user 62m59.155s sys 0m54.360s Second time: real 0m7.451s user 0m4.484s sys 0m0.659s That hour was mostly spent processing LastResort.ttf. I'm not sure what the problem with Optima.ttc is, but it works fine with 2.12.2. Regards, -- Dan ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Does anyone still use breakbefore?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am Dienstag, 20. Oktober 2009 01:27:49 schrieb Ian Hulin: > Can't you use a \bookpart block to achieve the page break at the start > of a \score, too? In that case, the full title will be printed, not just the piece header markup... Cheers, Reinhold > Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Am Montag, 19. Oktober 2009 20:09:33 schrieb Joe Neeman: > >> For a couple of years now, we've had Nicolas' cool top-level \pageBreak > >> commands. So I'd like to get rid of the code supporting the old > >> breakbefore \paper block variable. Before I do, is there still a > >> use-case for it? > > > > Yes, I think so. The use case I'm thinking of is works with multiple > > pieces: By default, pieces start in the middle of a page. But with the > > breakbefore header variable, one can automatically start a new page with > > each new movement (as opposed to manually inserting dozens of \pageBreak > > commands). The breakbefore is kind of a global switch, so one can easily > > change styles. > > > > Cheers, > > Reinhold > > ___ > lilypond-devel mailing list > lilypond-devel@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel > - -- - -- Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial & Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFK3PuaTqjEwhXvPN0RAiryAKCvLKC+196LEHGn8J1z1+eKr3T9cgCgvKzk mJmSKyiqrYurahvtSROpkQ4= =aVcQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Does anyone still use breakbefore?
Hi all, Can't you use a \bookpart block to achieve the page break at the start of a \score, too? Cheers, Ian Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am Montag, 19. Oktober 2009 20:09:33 schrieb Joe Neeman: For a couple of years now, we've had Nicolas' cool top-level \pageBreak commands. So I'd like to get rid of the code supporting the old breakbefore \paper block variable. Nitpicking: It's a \header block variable (attached to each score) - I tried it as a paper variable and was quite confused when things didn't work ;-) Before I do, is there still a use-case for it? Yes, I think so. The use case I'm thinking of is works with multiple pieces: By default, pieces start in the middle of a page. But with the breakbefore header variable, one can automatically start a new page with each new movement (as opposed to manually inserting dozens of \pageBreak commands). The breakbefore is kind of a global switch, so one can easily change styles. Cheers, Reinhold ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: final testing for 2.13.6
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Graham Percival wrote: > On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 05:21:17PM +0100, Trevor Daniels wrote: >> Downloads, installs and runs fine. convert-ly seems fine too. The >> desktop icon fails, though. Clicking it just flashes a Command Prompt >> window, too fast to see a message. I think this has been the case for >> some time, at least on my system (I never have need to use it normally, >> of course). > > Bloody mao, we fixed that last week. :/ > > ok, this 2.13.6 is cancelled. I'll take another look at it tomorrow. The two darwin builds seem to work okay on Leopard, after a quick test. -Patrick ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: final testing for 2.13.6
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 05:21:17PM +0100, Trevor Daniels wrote: > Downloads, installs and runs fine. convert-ly seems fine too. The > desktop icon fails, though. Clicking it just flashes a Command Prompt > window, too fast to see a message. I think this has been the case for > some time, at least on my system (I never have need to use it normally, > of course). Bloody mao, we fixed that last week. :/ ok, this 2.13.6 is cancelled. I'll take another look at it tomorrow. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: final testing for 2.13.6
2009/10/19 Trevor Daniels : > Hi Graham > > Windows Vista Home Premium. > > Downloads, installs and runs fine. Same here on WXP. > convert-ly seems fine too. Not tested, sorry > The desktop > icon fails, though. Clicking it just flashes a Command Prompt window, too > fast to see a message. Same here on WXP. > I think this has been the case for some time, at > least on my system (I never have need to use it normally, of course). If > anyone else says it is OK just assume it's my system. I don't remember this happening before, although I rarely double-click the desktop icon. -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) www.paconet.org www.csmbadajoz.com ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Alternative music font
> it would be nicer if Lilypond itself could centre the digits >> around the 2nd and 4th lines of the stave in the case >> where they're smaller than 2*staff_spacing > > Be sure to consider non-5-line staff situations. Character glyph could be raised above the baseline using a seperate coding point for the musical semantic of a mensural symbol - trick then would be to get ly to use that instead of the other. Leave the numerals alone for use as numerals (ms # and what have you), but clone the glyph (Fontographer had a way to copy the glyph leaving it dynamically linked). -- Dana Emery ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Alternative music font
Op maandag 19-10-2009 om 15:33 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Simon Tatham: Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote: > This one has only taken me a couple of months (including some > initial thought about how to get nice-looking curves without an > excessive amount of manual specification). Great. Are you willing to spend more time on this, to finish it? > But then, it's very likely that a lot of yours is better thought out > in many ways that I didn't pay much attention to. (Just for a start, > I haven't implemented your subtle variation between the different > point sizes, except in the braces.) Possibly. Then again, we started off by using someone else's font and replace the note head by our own. As an aside, I found the note head much too round, almost as round as Gonville's ;-) FWIW, the point sizes thing is not what took most of that time. Have you looked at our font sources? See for example in mf/feta-nummer-code.mf: fatten := number_design_size * h + b; you can do that! > I'm afraid so, but then, it doesn't seem surprising to me that one > answer doesn't satisfy everybody's tastes! I don't think you have > any call to feel disappointed at not having managed to please > absolutely everybody. Probably you're right. But send us a patch then, tweak some things, But to redo the whole font! Man, that's just cruel! ;-) > I may yet make another attempt at redesigning the multiple flags. Ah, good. > The intention was to have them all essentially similar in shape > (unlike, say, Feta's quadruple down-flag in which the four flags > look very different from each other) and bold enough to make it easy > to see how many of them there were. Yeah I remember Han-Wen found that all flags need to be designed as a whole and have a different curvature; after trying to do what Sonata did, just stacking flags. Unfortunately, I do not see anything about that fact in the sources. > They're all currently 'the same thickness' in the sense that every > flag covers the same vertical length That may be so, but have a look at the blackness of the single 8th up-flag in the third measure and compare it to the two 16ths to the right of that. The 16th flags cover a triangle with about or over 50% of the rectangle it cuts between the staff lines. In contrast the single eight only has a small black wedge? Possibly the staff line plays a bit unfortunate here, but eh, you'd have to count with having a staff lines here and there, I guess. > > What is the status of the font, is it ready for general use, is it > > finished? > > Initial development is complete. I may make changes, but probably > not until I've collected some feedback and got a general idea of > what really does want changing and what's a silly idea I've > accidentally talked myself into by thinking too hard about it... Okay. So why not work on a patch to hook it up to LilyPond -- best chances to get some feedback. > One comment from a friend about the difference between the two fonts > was that a thing he liked about Gonville was that it looked more > modern. Feta certainly seems to be striving after a 'traditional' > look, and perhaps that's precisely what is not to everyone's taste > (one person's 'traditional' is another's 'old-fashioned' :-). Yeah well, anything to get the young, fashionable new on-storming generations hooked to LilyPond, I guess. > Sadly I don't have anything like that sort of detailed citation > available. I grew up playing the violin, and in designing Gonville I > was trying to recall the look of the sheet music I was provided with > by my teachers, because that was what I was used to reading; > unfortunately, I don't have most of that sheet music any more, so > all I can give is vague generalities. Well, you'll just have to go look for some of those then? I mean, if Gonville looks like most music you ever saw, such music cannot be hard to find? I mean, not that you /must/, but it would help you to describe the musical practice or culture the font is based on. It would help others that would like to add or change glyphs very much if they could go look for publications that have such a font? And how can we send bug reports if we have nothing to compare it to? :-) > It's interesting that you should mention that: that actually reminds > me of one of my specific issues with Feta, namely that the curved > centre line of its treble clef _does_ make it look to me as if it's > leaning over backwards. Gonville's straight-backed version feels > much more balanced to me. That would be a bug. How many degrees would you need to rotate it to get it straight, in your opinion? > You'd be welcome to include it if you wanted to Sorry, I don't think it works that way. But you can always send a patch. > - I was under no illusions that you'd instantly prefer it to the > font you've carefully tuned to the criteria you consider important! Of course I do. But others using LilyPond may not? > All I'd suggest is trivial changes to Lily
Re: Alternative music font
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote: > Op maandag 19-10-2009 om 15:05 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Simon > Tatham: >> (I hope this reply to the list works. > > I think not, you'll have to subscribe. If this helps, I did receive Simon's earlier mail on the list. (Perhaps he's already subscribed?) I have now added this interesting discussion to the tracker as a possible Enhancement: http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=870 Cheers, Valentin ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Alternative music font
(I hope this reply to the list works. I had to post my previous message through the Gmane interface, but if I have to post this one the same way, I won't be able to get the In-Reply-To header to work properly.) Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote: > Wow. You created a full font? That must have taken quite some time! > I think Feta took Han-Wen and me something between one and two > man-years of work. This one has only taken me a couple of months (including some initial thought about how to get nice-looking curves without an excessive amount of manual specification). But then, it's very likely that a lot of yours is better thought out in many ways that I didn't pay much attention to. (Just for a start, I haven't implemented your subtle variation between the different point sizes, except in the braces.) > I feel a bit disappointed because one of my goals was to create a font > that would look like the most beautiful music that I have seen. As > one of our explicit goals for LilyPond is for the printed music /not/ > to distract the player, we evidently failed to achieve this for you. I'm afraid so, but then, it doesn't seem surprising to me that one answer doesn't satisfy everybody's tastes! I don't think you have any call to feel disappointed at not having managed to please absolutely everybody. > Looking at Gonville it's not so difficult to imagine for me how this > could be, as I cannot remember ever having seen music that looks much > like it. For example, the up-flags are much fatter and > rounder/shorter than the down flags, is that intentional? I may yet make another attempt at redesigning the multiple flags. The intention was to have them all essentially similar in shape (unlike, say, Feta's quadruple down-flag in which the four flags look very different from each other) and bold enough to make it easy to see how many of them there were. They're all currently 'the same thickness' in the sense that every flag covers the same vertical length of stem where it joins on to it; that's something that I may re-think later on in favour of a more subjective idea of 'sameness', because I've already had one mild criticism of it. > What is the status of the font, is it ready for general use, is it > finished? Initial development is complete. I may make changes, but probably not until I've collected some feedback and got a general idea of what really does want changing and what's a silly idea I've accidentally talked myself into by thinking too hard about it... > Up till now we have been advertising Feta as being "the" lilypond font > and describing it mostly with general terms as "beautiful" and > "designed after the best typesetting traditions". In some places, > possibly the essay and talks, we elaborated on the fatness, eg see the > short note of font design at > > http://lilypond.org/web/about/automated-engraving/typography-features One comment from a friend about the difference between the two fonts was that a thing he liked about Gonville was that it looked more modern. Feta certainly seems to be striving after a 'traditional' look, and perhaps that's precisely what is not to everyone's taste (one person's 'traditional' is another's 'old-fashioned' :-). > Now that you created a second working font for Lily, it would be > nice if both fonts were [more explicitly] advertised as to what > they were designed after. The LilyPond font sources contain > quite a few citings of sources of inspiration, eg [...] Sadly I don't have anything like that sort of detailed citation available. I grew up playing the violin, and in designing Gonville I was trying to recall the look of the sheet music I was provided with by my teachers, because that was what I was used to reading; unfortunately, I don't have most of that sheet music any more, so all I can give is vague generalities. Ultimately, my design criterion was that it should satisfy my personal subjective aesthetic criteria. Feedback so far suggests that at least a few other people's criteria are not too far off mine, but I don't think I could really give a scholarly analysis of where mine came from. > Further, common [text-]font considerations were taken into > account. For example, a glyph should look balanced out. It > should not lean backward of forward, inviting the reader to catch > it before it falls over :-) It's interesting that you should mention that: that actually reminds me of one of my specific issues with Feta, namely that the curved centre line of its treble clef _does_ make it look to me as if it's leaning over backwards. Gonville's straight-backed version feels much more balanced to me. > Do you intend to have Gonville included in LilyPond? You'd be welcome to include it if you wanted to, but I hadn't particularly expected that you would - I was under no illusions that you'd instantly prefer it to the font you've carefully tuned to the criteria you consider important! I'm perfectly happy to maintain it as a third-party
Re: final testing for 2.13.6
Hi Graham Windows Vista Home Premium. Downloads, installs and runs fine. convert-ly seems fine too. The desktop icon fails, though. Clicking it just flashes a Command Prompt window, too fast to see a message. I think this has been the case for some time, at least on my system (I never have need to use it normally, of course). If anyone else says it is OK just assume it's my system. Trevor - Original Message - From: "Graham Percival" To: Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 3:46 PM Subject: final testing for 2.13.6 Ok, we think that Jan and I are finishing making major changes to GUB. The versions in http://lilypond.org/~graham/ will become official if I get one person confirming it on OSX and one person confirming it on windows. The regtests look good. The next thing I investigate will be the size of the test output (it's now 4 times the 2.13.0 size!), but that won't require testing. I'll ask for testing of 2.12.3 when that becomes available. To the best of my knowledge, nobody is working on the snow leopard issue, so if you're at all interested, please do so. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Alternative music font
Wow too. Actually, there are things in Feta what I don't feel natural either. For example: the caesura sign, the G-clef and the trill indication feels better for me in Gonville. Though the G-clef is I think a clear LilyPond watermark, so I would keep that one :) The best would be if I could set up where to get which glyph from. Bert Simon Tatham wrote: Hi, I've recently drawn a new font of musical symbols for use with Lilypond, which look more like the ones I'm used to and hence distract me less. I put it up on the web this weekend at http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/gonville/ Currently the only way I've found to use that font with Lilypond is to create a symlink mirror of the entire Lilypond data directory, replace the 'fonts' subdirectory, and point $LILYPOND_DATADIR at the altered copy. Would it be possible to introduce a command-line or configuration option of some sort, to make it easier to select an alternative font? (Or is there one I've missed?) Cheers, Simon ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Alternative music font
Simon Tatham writes: > I may yet make another attempt at redesigning the multiple flags. > The intention was to have them all essentially similar in shape Why? What do you gain by smaller note values essentially making a spread-out regular rectangular black pattern across the page rather than being characteristic compact shapes capturing the necessary distinguishable information? We use proportional fonts and ligatures in typesetting, not to save space, but to give the eye a constant and aesthetic flow of information shaping itself into recognizable word patterns of comparable greyness. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Alternative music font
Hi all, Although I greatly prefer the Feta font to Gonville, I'm very much enjoying this thread — kudos to Simon and Jan for all their hard and considered work! it doesn't seem surprising to me that one answer doesn't satisfy everybody's tastes! Agreed — this is one of the great(est) benefits of open source software. In that spirit, I know that many people out there would love a font which looks handwritten — maybe once Gonville is integrated, you (Simon) could provide an API documentation patch, so that others might contribute/integrate their alternative fonts? One comment from a friend about the difference between the two fonts was that a thing he liked about Gonville was that it looked more modern. As you said, this will be a matter of taste — I much prefer the more traditional look of Feta to anything out there (Gonville or Igor Engraver's font or Finale's or Sibelius's or...). Of course, I also maintain that number theory reached its apex sometime between Fermat and Euler, so take that as you may... ;) It's interesting that you should mention that: that actually reminds me of one of my specific issues with Feta, namely that the curved centre line of its treble clef _does_ make it look to me as if it's leaning over backwards. Gonville's straight-backed version feels much more balanced to me. You could probably just rotate that glyph in a TimeSignature override, if you wanted. ;) it would be nicer if Lilypond itself could centre the digits around the 2nd and 4th lines of the stave in the case where they're smaller than 2*staff_spacing Be sure to consider non-5-line staff situations. Cheers, Kieren. ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
final testing for 2.13.6
Ok, we think that Jan and I are finishing making major changes to GUB. The versions in http://lilypond.org/~graham/ will become official if I get one person confirming it on OSX and one person confirming it on windows. The regtests look good. The next thing I investigate will be the size of the test output (it's now 4 times the 2.13.0 size!), but that won't require testing. I'll ask for testing of 2.12.3 when that becomes available. To the best of my knowledge, nobody is working on the snow leopard issue, so if you're at all interested, please do so. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Alternative music font
Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote: > Wow. You created a full font? That must have taken quite some time! > I think Feta took Han-Wen and me something between one and two > man-years of work. This one has only taken me a couple of months (including some initial thought about how to get nice-looking curves without an excessive amount of manual specification). But then, it's very likely that a lot of yours is better thought out in many ways that I didn't pay much attention to. (Just for a start, I haven't implemented your subtle variation between the different point sizes, except in the braces.) > I feel a bit disappointed because one of my goals was to create a font > that would look like the most beautiful music that I have seen. As > one of our explicit goals for LilyPond is for the printed music /not/ > to distract the player, we evidently failed to achieve this for you. I'm afraid so, but then, it doesn't seem surprising to me that one answer doesn't satisfy everybody's tastes! I don't think you have any call to feel disappointed at not having managed to please absolutely everybody. > Looking at Gonville it's not so difficult to imagine for me how this > could be, as I cannot remember ever having seen music that looks much > like it. For example, the up-flags are much fatter and > rounder/shorter than the down flags, is that intentional? I may yet make another attempt at redesigning the multiple flags. The intention was to have them all essentially similar in shape (unlike, say, Feta's quadruple down-flag in which the four flags look very different from each other) and bold enough to make it easy to see how many of them there were. They're all currently 'the same thickness' in the sense that every flag covers the same vertical length of stem where it joins on to it; that's something that I may re-think later on in favour of a more subjective idea of 'sameness', because I've already had one mild criticism of it. > What is the status of the font, is it ready for general use, is it > finished? Initial development is complete. I may make changes, but probably not until I've collected some feedback and got a general idea of what really does want changing and what's a silly idea I've accidentally talked myself into by thinking too hard about it... > Up till now we have been advertising Feta as being "the" lilypond font > and describing it mostly with general terms as "beautiful" and > "designed after the best typesetting traditions". In some places, > possibly the essay and talks, we elaborated on the fatness, eg see the > short note of font design at > > http://lilypond.org/web/about/automated-engraving/typography-features One comment from a friend about the difference between the two fonts was that a thing he liked about Gonville was that it looked more modern. Feta certainly seems to be striving after a 'traditional' look, and perhaps that's precisely what is not to everyone's taste (one person's 'traditional' is another's 'old-fashioned' :-). > Now that you created a second working font for Lily, it would be > nice if both fonts were [more explicitly] advertised as to what > they were designed after. The LilyPond font sources contain > quite a few citings of sources of inspiration, eg [...] Sadly I don't have anything like that sort of detailed citation available. I grew up playing the violin, and in designing Gonville I was trying to recall the look of the sheet music I was provided with by my teachers, because that was what I was used to reading; unfortunately, I don't have most of that sheet music any more, so all I can give is vague generalities. Ultimately, my design criterion was that it should satisfy my personal subjective aesthetic criteria. Feedback so far suggests that at least a few other people's criteria are not too far off mine, but I don't think I could really give a scholarly analysis of where mine came from. > Further, common [text-]font considerations were taken into > account. For example, a glyph should look balanced out. It > should not lean backward of forward, inviting the reader to catch > it before it falls over :-) It's interesting that you should mention that: that actually reminds me of one of my specific issues with Feta, namely that the curved centre line of its treble clef _does_ make it look to me as if it's leaning over backwards. Gonville's straight-backed version feels much more balanced to me. > Do you intend to have Gonville included in LilyPond? You'd be welcome to include it if you wanted to, but I hadn't particularly expected that you would - I was under no illusions that you'd instantly prefer it to the font you've carefully tuned to the criteria you consider important! I'm perfectly happy to maintain it as a third-party accessory, and keep it up to date as necessary. I don't even ask for a link from the website, if you don't think Gonville is of sufficiently high quality to merit it. All I'd suggest is trivial changes to Lilyp
Re: Alternative music font
Op maandag 19-10-2009 om 15:05 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Simon Tatham: > (I hope this reply to the list works. I think not, you'll have to subscribe. > I had to post my previous > message through the Gmane interface, but if I have to post this one > the same way, I won't be able to get the In-Reply-To header to work > properly.) > Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote: > > > Wow. You created a full font? That must have taken quite some time! > > I think Feta took Han-Wen and me something between one and two > > man-years of work. > > This one has only taken me a couple of months (including some > initial thought about how to get nice-looking curves without an > excessive amount of manual specification). But then, it's very > likely that a lot of yours is better thought out in many ways that I > didn't pay much attention to. (Just for a start, I haven't > implemented your subtle variation between the different point sizes, > except in the braces.) > > > I feel a bit disappointed because one of my goals was to create a font > > that would look like the most beautiful music that I have seen. As > > one of our explicit goals for LilyPond is for the printed music /not/ > > to distract the player, we evidently failed to achieve this for you. > > I'm afraid so, but then, it doesn't seem surprising to me that one > answer doesn't satisfy everybody's tastes! I don't think you have > any call to feel disappointed at not having managed to please > absolutely everybody. > > > Looking at Gonville it's not so difficult to imagine for me how this > > could be, as I cannot remember ever having seen music that looks much > > like it. For example, the up-flags are much fatter and > > rounder/shorter than the down flags, is that intentional? > > I may yet make another attempt at redesigning the multiple flags. > The intention was to have them all essentially similar in shape > (unlike, say, Feta's quadruple down-flag in which the four flags > look very different from each other) and bold enough to make it easy > to see how many of them there were. They're all currently 'the same > thickness' in the sense that every flag covers the same vertical > length of stem where it joins on to it; that's something that I may > re-think later on in favour of a more subjective idea of 'sameness', > because I've already had one mild criticism of it. > > > What is the status of the font, is it ready for general use, is it > > finished? > > Initial development is complete. I may make changes, but probably > not until I've collected some feedback and got a general idea of > what really does want changing and what's a silly idea I've > accidentally talked myself into by thinking too hard about it... > > > Up till now we have been advertising Feta as being "the" lilypond font > > and describing it mostly with general terms as "beautiful" and > > "designed after the best typesetting traditions". In some places, > > possibly the essay and talks, we elaborated on the fatness, eg see the > > short note of font design at > > > > http://lilypond.org/web/about/automated-engraving/typography-features > > One comment from a friend about the difference between the two fonts > was that a thing he liked about Gonville was that it looked more > modern. Feta certainly seems to be striving after a 'traditional' > look, and perhaps that's precisely what is not to everyone's taste > (one person's 'traditional' is another's 'old-fashioned' :-). > > > Now that you created a second working font for Lily, it would be > > nice if both fonts were [more explicitly] advertised as to what > > they were designed after. The LilyPond font sources contain > > quite a few citings of sources of inspiration, eg [...] > > Sadly I don't have anything like that sort of detailed citation > available. I grew up playing the violin, and in designing Gonville I > was trying to recall the look of the sheet music I was provided with > by my teachers, because that was what I was used to reading; > unfortunately, I don't have most of that sheet music any more, so > all I can give is vague generalities. > > Ultimately, my design criterion was that it should satisfy my > personal subjective aesthetic criteria. Feedback so far suggests > that at least a few other people's criteria are not too far off > mine, but I don't think I could really give a scholarly analysis of > where mine came from. > > > Further, common [text-]font considerations were taken into > > account. For example, a glyph should look balanced out. It > > should not lean backward of forward, inviting the reader to catch > > it before it falls over :-) > > It's interesting that you should mention that: that actually reminds > me of one of my specific issues with Feta, namely that the curved > centre line of its treble clef _does_ make it look to me as if it's > leaning over backwards. Gonville's straight-backed version feels > much more balanced to me. > > > Do you intend to have Gonvi
Re: how to do a minimalist rebuild of the documentation after minor changes?
Le dimanche 18 octobre 2009 à 21:22 +0100, Graham Percival a écrit : > I don't have a clue. If I type "make doc" in Documentation/, then > I look in Documentation/out-www/. If I type "make doc" in /, then > I look in out-www/, and keep on looking in subdirectories until I > see something that looks right. Once I find that thing, I > bookmark it for future reference. On this list, I told Carl about one week ago to look at TOP-BUILD-DIR/out-www/offline-root and not complain about broken links anywhere else. Please add it to the CG if you think it's worthwhile. John signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Alternative music font
Op maandag 19-10-2009 om 08:15 uur [tijdzone +], schreef Simon Tatham: Hi Simon, I've recently drawn a new font of musical symbols for use with > Lilypond, which look more like the ones I'm used to and hence > distract me less. I put it up on the web this weekend at > > http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/gonville/ Wow. You created a full font? That must have taken quite some time! I think Feta took Han-Wen and me something between one and two man-years of work. Reading what you write on your site I designed it because Lilypond's standard font (Feta) was not to my taste: I found it to be (variously) over-ornate, strangely proportioned, and subtly not like the music I was used to reading. Music set in Feta looks to me like strangely stylised music; music set in Gonville just looks to me like music, so I can read it without being distracted so much. I feel a bit disappointed because one of my goals was to create a font that would look like the most beautiful music that I have seen. As one of our explicit goals for LilyPond is for the printed music /not/ to distract the player, we evidently failed to achieve this for you. Looking at Gonville it's not so difficult to imagine for me how this could be, as I cannot remember ever having seen music that looks much like it. For example, the up-flags are much fatter and rounder/shorter than the down flags, is that intentional? What is the status of the font, is it ready for general use, is it finished? Up till now we have been advertising Feta as being "the" lilypond font and describing it mostly with general terms as "beautiful" and "designed after the best typesetting traditions". In some places, possibly the essay and talks, we elaborated on the fatness, eg see the short note of font design at http://lilypond.org/web/about/automated-engraving/typography-features Now that you created a second working font for Lily, it would be nice if both fonts were [more explicitly] advertised as to what they were designed after. The LilyPond font sources contain quite a few citings of sources of inspiration, eg % Couldn't find many z examples. This one is losely inspired % by a sfz from Mueller Etuden fuer Horn (Edition Hofmeister). % Inspired by Adobe Sonata and [Wanske]. % For example, see POSTSCRIPT Language -- program design, % page 119, and [Wanske], p 41, 42. % [Wanske] says the bulbs should be positioned about 1/4 right of the % `arrow'. % [Wanske] and some Baerenreiter editions % suggest about 80 degrees instead of a half-circle % Inspired by a (by now) PD edition of Durand & C'ie edition of % Saint-Saens' Celloconcerto no. 1 % For example, the 8th rest was vaguely based on a book with trumpet % studies by Duhem, and by Baerenreiters cello suites. I included my % findings in a comment in the mf file. One of the things that I tried % to do was make the rest a little lighter and narrower than the black % note head. I think this looks better in polyphonic music, when the % rest is below a head from a different voice. % inspired by Bamberger Manuscript (15th century), in: % MGG, volume 2, table 59. A somewhat better way than "beautiful" to describe Feta could be something like the design is inspired by fonts used in traditional manual engravings publish by European music publishers in/towards the end of the first half of the 20th century [Baerenreiter, Duhem, Durand, Hofmeister, Peters, Schott]. This is sometimes regarded as the peak of traditional musical engraving practice [Hader, Wanske], [in http://lilypond.org/web/images/FISL7-slides.pdf we call it our Gold standard] [??] Annotations can be found in the font's source code. Criteria for the choice of inspirational glyphs are blackness or boldness. In contrast: computer-made often looks very "white". Delicacy or roundness. No outer corners of glyphs should have sharp edges, as the eye tends to "stick" to those points. Finally commonness or familiarness. A glyph should not look suprisingly unique. Further, common [text-]font considerations were taken into account. For example, a glyph should look balanced out. It should not lean backward of forward, inviting the reader to catch it before it falls over :-) There should also be a black/white balance. It should still look good printed in a long row. It should look good on screen as well as on paper [quite different from a computer screen, sometimes]. Curves should be smooth, have no discontinuities. What would a more explicit description of Gonville be? It would be nice if you could describe the criteria and sources of your inspiration, as opposed to contrasting it to Feta's apparent failure to meet those :-) Do you intend to have Gonville included in LilyPond? In that case it would be good if you had a [few] high resolution scans of music that Gonville strives
Alternative music font
Hi, I've recently drawn a new font of musical symbols for use with Lilypond, which look more like the ones I'm used to and hence distract me less. I put it up on the web this weekend at http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/gonville/ Currently the only way I've found to use that font with Lilypond is to create a symlink mirror of the entire Lilypond data directory, replace the 'fonts' subdirectory, and point $LILYPOND_DATADIR at the altered copy. Would it be possible to introduce a command-line or configuration option of some sort, to make it easier to select an alternative font? (Or is there one I've missed?) Cheers, Simon ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
