Guitar right-hand fingering

[Peter Bjuhr]

Hi,

I just noticed that in the documentation about right-hand fingerings in 
the common notation for fretted strings: 
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/common-notation-for-fretted-strings#right_002dhand-fingerings 
the fifth finger isn't mentioned.


I also tried|\rightHandFinger #5| and an 'x' was printed. As I 
understand it 'x' is printed for all non supported numbers. But although 
perhaps not so common the fifth finger is used (with the letter 'c'):


1 = p = pulgar, 2 = i = índice, 3 = m = mayor, 4 = a = 
anular,5 = c = chiquito


My hope in writing this is that this could be easily added to LilyPond. 
One can of course easily use markup instead, but I think it would be 
nice for the sake of completeness.


Best
Peter
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Re: Guitar right-hand fingering

[Peter Bjuhr]

On 2015-03-17 11:00, Peter Bjuhr wrote:

Hi,

I just noticed that in the documentation about right-hand fingerings 
in the common notation for fretted strings: 
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/common-notation-for-fretted-strings#right_002dhand-fingerings 
the fifth finger isn't mentioned.


I also tried|\rightHandFinger #5| and an 'x' was printed. As I 
understand it 'x' is printed for all non supported numbers. But 
although perhaps not so common the fifth finger is used (with the 
letter 'c'):


1 = p = pulgar, 2 = i = índice, 3 = m = mayor, 4 = a = 
anular,5 = c = chiquito


My hope in writing this is that this could be easily added to 
LilyPond. One can of course easily use markup instead, but I think it 
would be nice for the sake of completeness.





On second thought, I know everyone here is busy with other tasks. If 
someone would point me in the right direction I'll take a look myself 
and hopefully come up with a proposing patch.


Best
Peter
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Re: Guitar right-hand fingering

[David Kastrup]

Peter Bjuhr  writes:

> On 2015-03-17 11:00, Peter Bjuhr wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just noticed that in the documentation about right-hand fingerings
>> in the common notation for fretted strings:
>> http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/common-notation-for-fretted-strings#right_002dhand-fingerings
>> the fifth finger isn't mentioned.
>>
>> I also tried|\rightHandFinger #5| and an 'x' was printed. As I
>> understand it 'x' is printed for all non supported numbers. But
>> although perhaps not so common the fifth finger is used (with the
>> letter 'c'):
>>
>> 1 = p = pulgar, 2 = i = índice, 3 = m = mayor, 4 = a =
>> anular,5 = c = chiquito
>>
>> My hope in writing this is that this could be easily added to
>> LilyPond. One can of course easily use markup instead, but I think
>> it would be nice for the sake of completeness.
>>
>>
>
> On second thought, I know everyone here is busy with other tasks. If
> someone would point me in the right direction I'll take a look myself
> and hopefully come up with a proposing patch.

dak@lola:/usr/local/tmp/lilypond$ git grep pima
po/fi.po:msgstr "lisätään nuottipää sopimattomaan varteen (tyyppi = %d)"
dak@lola:/usr/local/tmp/lilypond$

Uh no.

dak@lola:/usr/local/tmp/lilypond$ git grep '"p" "i"'
scm/define-grobs.scm:(digit-names . #("p" "i" "m" "a" "x"))
dak@lola:/usr/local/tmp/lilypond$

That should likely give you a starting point.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Guitar right-hand fingering

[peter]

> "Peter" == Peter Bjuhr  writes:

Peter> On 2015-03-17 11:00, Peter Bjuhr wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I just noticed that in the documentation about right-hand
>> fingerings in the common notation for fretted strings:
>> http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/common-notation-for-fretted-strings#right_002dhand-fingerings
>> the fifth finger isn't mentioned.

Hi, Peter --- look for the scheme symbol `digit names' I think in
define-grobs.scm.  It's a vector mapping from digits 0 (thumb) to 4
(little finger); and set it how you want.

Peter C



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Re: Guitar right-hand fingering

[Noeck]

Hi Peter,

these letters are defined around line 2191 of scm/define-grobs.scm

Adding (not replacing "x") the "c" there turns every unknown number to
c. But perhaps you can find your way from there.

Even though I havn't seen anything else besides pima, I think your point
about completeness is right and c is better than x.
Do you have a reference for that? I found some occurences of "c" on the
web but also "e":
http://guitaralliance.com/p-i-m-a-unleashed/pima-in-detail/

Cheers,
Joram

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Re: Guitar right-hand fingering

[Thomas Morley]

2015-03-17 11:00 GMT+01:00 Peter Bjuhr :

> Hi,
>
> I just noticed that in the documentation about right-hand fingerings in
> the common notation for fretted strings: http://www.lilypond.org/doc/
> v2.19/Documentation/notation/common-notation-for-fretted-
> strings#right_002dhand-fingerings the fifth finger isn't mentioned.
>
> I also tried|\rightHandFinger #5| and an 'x' was printed. As I understand
> it 'x' is printed for all non supported numbers.


No. 'x' _is_ the sign for the 5th finger in LilyPond


> But although perhaps not so common the fifth finger is used (with the
> letter 'c'):
>
> 1 = p = pulgar, 2 = i = índice, 3 = m = mayor, 4 = a =
> anular,5 = c = chiquito
>

I slightly disagree.
In printed editions I've found: 'c', 'x', 'e' and even 'μ' (from a greek
editor)
LilyPond should default to the most common usage, imho.

Though, I've no clue which that might be.
Speaking only for me, I most often see 'x', but that's only me.


Cheers,
  Harm
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Re: Guitar right-hand fingering

[pls]

On 17.03.2015, at 11:24, Thomas Morley  wrote:

> 2015-03-17 11:00 GMT+01:00 Peter Bjuhr :
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I just noticed that in the documentation about right-hand fingerings in
>> the common notation for fretted strings: http://www.lilypond.org/doc/
>> v2.19/Documentation/notation/common-notation-for-fretted-
>> strings#right_002dhand-fingerings the fifth finger isn't mentioned.
>> 
>> I also tried|\rightHandFinger #5| and an 'x' was printed. As I understand
>> it 'x' is printed for all non supported numbers.
> 
> 
> No. 'x' _is_ the sign for the 5th finger in LilyPond
> 
> 
>> But although perhaps not so common the fifth finger is used (with the
>> letter 'c'):
>> 
>> 1 = p = pulgar, 2 = i = índice, 3 = m = mayor, 4 = a =
>> anular,5 = c = chiquito
>> 
> 
> I slightly disagree.
> In printed editions I've found: 'c', 'x', 'e' and even 'μ' (from a greek
> editor)
> LilyPond should default to the most common usage, imho.
> 
> Though, I've no clue which that might be.
> Speaking only for me, I most often see 'x', but that's only me.
> 
In some of my flamenco books “q” is used for the little finger (meñique).


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Re: Guitar right-hand fingering

[Peter Bjuhr]

On 2015-03-17 11:24, Thomas Morley wrote:


I also tried|\rightHandFinger #5| and an 'x' was printed. As I
understand it 'x' is printed for all non supported numbers. 



No. 'x' _is_ the sign for the 5th finger in LilyPond


I see. \rightHandFinger #8 also gives an x (and of course considering x 
as unknown). I then assumed it was because it wasn't defined.


But although perhaps not so common the fifth finger is used (with
the letter 'c'):

1 = p = pulgar, 2 = i = índice, 3 = m = mayor, 4 = a =
anular,5 = c = chiquito


I slightly disagree.
In printed editions I've found: 'c', 'x', 'e' and even 'μ' (from a 
greek editor)

LilyPond should default to the most common usage, imho.

Though, I've no clue which that might be.
Speaking only for me, I most often see 'x', but that's only me.



Even though I havn't seen anything else besides pima, I think your point
about completeness is right and c is better than x.
Do you have a reference for that? I found some occurences of "c" on the
web but also "e":
http://guitaralliance.com/p-i-m-a-unleashed/pima-in-detail/



Interesting, I had no idea there was an disagreement on this. I've 
learnt 'pimac' in contact with guitarists. But as a reference I read 
this in wikipedia:


Theclassical guitar 
also has a fingering 
notation system for theplucking 
hand, 
known as/pima/(or less commonly/pimac/), abbreviations of Spanish; 
where*p*=/pulgar/(thumb),*i*=/índice/(index finger),*m*=/medio/(middle 
finger),*a*=/anular/(ring finger) and, very rarely,*c*=/chico/(little 
finger).^[4]  It 
is usually only notated in scores where a passage is particularly 
difficult, or requires specific fingering for the plucking hand. 
Otherwise, plucking-hand fingering is generally left to the discretion 
of the guitarist.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingering

Best
Peter

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Re: Guitar right-hand fingering

[Marc Hohl]

Am 17.03.2015 um 11:24 schrieb Thomas Morley:

2015-03-17 11:00 GMT+01:00 Peter Bjuhr :


Hi,

I just noticed that in the documentation about right-hand fingerings in
the common notation for fretted strings: http://www.lilypond.org/doc/
v2.19/Documentation/notation/common-notation-for-fretted-
strings#right_002dhand-fingerings the fifth finger isn't mentioned.

I also tried|\rightHandFinger #5| and an 'x' was printed. As I understand
it 'x' is printed for all non supported numbers.



No. 'x' _is_ the sign for the 5th finger in LilyPond



But although perhaps not so common the fifth finger is used (with the
letter 'c'):

1 = p = pulgar, 2 = i = índice, 3 = m = mayor, 4 = a =
anular,5 = c = chiquito



I slightly disagree.
In printed editions I've found: 'c', 'x', 'e' and even 'μ' (from a greek
editor)
LilyPond should default to the most common usage, imho.


I can confirm that, 'x' is used in scores. I think I saw 'n' once, but I 
am not sure.

Gould however claims that the fifth finger is normally not used at all ;-)

Marc


Though, I've no clue which that might be.
Speaking only for me, I most often see 'x', but that's only me.


Cheers,
   Harm
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GSoC tie formatting project (was: Google Summer of Code 2015)

[Janek Warchoł]

Hello,

2015-03-12 2:07 GMT+01:00 Janek Warchoł :
> Long time ago I have collected all of my research concerning ties in a
> repository on github:
> https://github.com/janek-warchol/tie-crusade
> I suggest that you take a quick look at it (follow the first paragraph
> of the README) to get an overview of the task at hand.  It probably
> needs some cleanup - I'll review and update it over the next two days.

Sorry for delay!
Today I've cleaned the repo up a bit and thought about the problem in depth.

Overall, the repository talks about two quite separate tie issues:
- how to support cross-voice ties, enharmonic ties, ties over a
clef/staff change and other weird constructs, i.e. how to represent
these situations internally and what syntax should be used for
inputting them,
- formatting ties: given two noteheads that should be connected with a
tie, how the tie should look like.

I think that your GSoC project should be solely about the second part.


2015-03-13 20:43 GMT+01:00 Georgy Frolov :
> Yes, I've built the sources from the git repository (this wasn't much
> of an achievement, it 'just worked' with automake), and have been
> fooling around a bit with parameters in tie formatting -- just to
> learn what's going on. Honestly, can't say that I love the algorithm,
> it seems somehow overcomplicated and difficult to control.

Indeed.  The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that we
need to ditch most of the old code.  I believe that we need a
relatively simple algorithm, with more or less linear control flow,
instead of a heuristic that calculates multiple tie variants and
scores them.

I think we should start by pinning down the control flow - both inside
the tie formatting algorithm itself and between this and the rest of
LilyPond.

Concerning internal control flow: it appears to me that a tie can be
characterized by 4 parameters: direction (upward/downward), height,
tips' vertical coordinates and tips' horizontal coordinates.  We need
to find answers to the following questions:
- are there any cyclic dependencies, and what can we do to break them?
- in what order should these parameters be calculated?
- how formatting ties connecting single notes differs from formatting
ties connecting chords?
- maybe we should pick a different set of characteristics to represent a tie?

As for the global control flow, the questions I see are:
- what we need to know before calculating tie?
- what decisions we cannot make until we have decided how the ties
will look like?
- can we treat tie formatting as one operation?  Is there anything
that we must calculate after some characteristics of the ties are
determined, but before others?  In particular, what about augmentation
dots and accidentals?

I'll go over the examples in the repository asking myself these questions.

After that we'd figure out the implementation details (i.e. how to
calculate each parameter - assuming that calculating them one by one
will be possible).

What do you think?

One thing that's not clear for me yet is how much of this thinking
should be done during the preparation of the project proposal, and how
much will be part of the GSoC project itself.

> I will have
> more time now on the weekend to look at your patch and play with the
> code, and hopefully will then be ready for a more specific discussion
> :)

Did you manage to run regression test comparison with my patch?

best,
Janek

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Re: Guitar right-hand fingering

[Thomas Morley]

2015-03-17 11:36 GMT+01:00 Peter Bjuhr :

>
>
> On 2015-03-17 11:24, Thomas Morley wrote:
>
> I also tried|\rightHandFinger #5| and an 'x' was printed. As I understand
>> it 'x' is printed for all non supported numbers.
>
>
>  No. 'x' _is_ the sign for the 5th finger in LilyPond
>
>
> I see. \rightHandFinger #8 also gives an x (and of course considering x as
> unknown). I then assumed it was because it wasn't defined.
>

To be more precise, 'x' is the sign for the 5th finger _and_ will be
returned for all finger-numbers > 5
see: 'stroke-finger::calc-text' in output-lib.scm

>
>
>> But although perhaps not so common the fifth finger is used (with the
>> letter 'c'):
>>
>> 1 = p = pulgar, 2 = i = índice, 3 = m = mayor, 4 = a =
>> anular,5 = c = chiquito
>>
>
>  I slightly disagree.
>  In printed editions I've found: 'c', 'x', 'e' and even 'μ' (from a greek
> editor)
>  LilyPond should default to the most common usage, imho.
>
>  Though, I've no clue which that might be.
>  Speaking only for me, I most often see 'x', but that's only me.
>
>
>  Even though I havn't seen anything else besides pima, I think your point
> about completeness is right and c is better than x.
> Do you have a reference for that? I found some occurences of "c" on the
> web but also "e":http://guitaralliance.com/p-i-m-a-unleashed/pima-in-detail/
>
>
>
> Interesting, I had no idea there was an disagreement on this. I've learnt
> 'pimac' in contact with guitarists. But as a reference I read this in
> wikipedia:
>
>  The classical guitar  also
> has a fingering notation system for the plucking
>  hand,
> known as *pima* (or less commonly* pimac*), abbreviations of Spanish;
> where *p*=*pulgar* (thumb), *i*=*índice* (index finger), *m*=*medio* (middle
> finger),*a*=*anular* (ring finger) and, very rarely, *c*=*chico* (little
> finger).[4]  It is
> usually only notated in scores where a passage is particularly difficult,
> or requires specific fingering for the plucking hand. Otherwise,
> plucking-hand fingering is generally left to the discretion of the
> guitarist.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingering
>

The german wikipedia says: p, i, m, a, q !!
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingersatz



>
> Best
> Peter
>
>
To summarize:
There are different opinions which character should be used for the 5th
StrokeFinger and printed editions differ.

IMHO, LilyPond should default to the most common _and_ should offer an easy
to manage way to change the default behaviour.

The former might be done by a poll on the user-list.
The latter is already in place:

\relative c {
  \clef "treble_8"
  \override StrokeFinger.digit-names = ##("p" "i" "m" "a" "c")
  c4\rightHandFinger #1
  e\rightHandFinger #2
  g\rightHandFinger #3
  c\rightHandFinger #4
  e1\rightHandFinger #5

  1
}


Thinking further about use cases, or better how to abuse, I redefined
'stroke-finger::calc-text'
Now more signs for fingers may be recognized.

#(define (stroke-finger::custom-calc-text grob)
  (let* ((event (event-cause grob))
 (digit-names (ly:grob-property grob 'digit-names))
 (digit-names-length (vector-length digit-names))
 (digit-event (ly:event-property event 'digit))
 (text-event (ly:event-property event 'text #f)))
(or text-event
(vector-ref digit-names
(1- (max 1
 (min digit-names-length digit-event)))

\relative c {
  \clef "treble_8"
  \override StrokeFinger.text =#stroke-finger::custom-calc-text
  \override StrokeFinger.digit-names =
  %##("p" "i" "m" "a" "c" "q")
  #(vector "p" "i" "m" "a" "c" (markup #:with-color red "remark"))
  c4\rightHandFinger #1
  e\rightHandFinger #2
  g\rightHandFinger #3
  c\rightHandFinger #4
  e2\rightHandFinger #5
  g\rightHandFinger #6

  1
}


Cheers,
  Harm
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Re: Guitar right-hand fingering

[Carl Sorensen]

On 3/17/15 3:12 PM, "Thomas Morley"  wrote:
>To summarize:
>There are different opinions which character should be used for the 5th
>StrokeFinger and printed editions differ.
>
>IMHO, LilyPond should default to the most common _and_ should offer an
>easy
>to manage way to change the default behaviour.

I agree.

>
>The former might be done by a poll on the user-list.

I agree.



>  #(vector "p" "i" "m" "a" "c" (markup #:with-color red "remark"))

Why use a vector and vector-ref, instead of just using a list and list-ref?

Thanks,

Carl


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Re: Guitar right-hand fingering

[Thomas Morley]

2015-03-17 22:37 GMT+01:00 Carl Sorensen :

>
>
> On 3/17/15 3:12 PM, "Thomas Morley"  wrote:
> >To summarize:
> >There are different opinions which character should be used for the 5th
> >StrokeFinger and printed editions differ.
> >
> >IMHO, LilyPond should default to the most common _and_ should offer an
> >easy
> >to manage way to change the default behaviour.
>
> I agree.
>
> >
> >The former might be done by a poll on the user-list.
>
> I agree.
>
> 
>
> >  #(vector "p" "i" "m" "a" "c" (markup #:with-color red "remark"))
>
> Why use a vector and vector-ref, instead of just using a list and list-ref?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carl
>
>
Well, because define-grob-properties.scm states:
(digit-names ,vector? "Names for string finger digits.")

Though, I have to confess my lack of knowledge here. Why are certain
properties vectors (digit-names, break-align-orders, break-visibility etc)?
What are the advantages/disadvantages?
I don't know.

Cheers,
  Harm
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