Fwd: Kievan hatchet notes for lilypond?
Sorry for the repeat, but I didn't initially send this to the developer's list, just to certain developers. Since Juergen's reply went to the list I thought I'd better correct my omission. Second installment coming soon. Fr. P -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Kievan hatchet notes for lilypond? Date: Wednesday 29 November 2006 21:58 From: Monk Panteleimon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Han-Wen Nienhuys [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello, developers of Lilypond. I submitted to the lilypond-user list a queru regarding the possibilty of adding symbols for kievan chant notation to lilyponds feta font. I got no response, but thought I'd try the developers, specifically those involved with older notations. I have counted thirteen symbols that would need adding to lilypond's font (presumably as noteheads, with their stems included, two dots and one clef) in order to enable lilypond to imitate the Chant-books of the Russian Orthodox Church. I have no idea how to make such characters, or how to fit them into lilypond, so I'm asking this to be added as a sponsored feature. Being a monk I have no personal money, but if the lilypond-developers can give me an estimated cost of sponsorship for the addition of these symbols, then I believe that I may be able find several people interested enough to support the feature, even if they are not already lilypond-users. I am thinking of some Russian Chant enthusiasts and people already developing ways to digitally reproduce Russian Liturgical books. I have attached 2 images, one extracted from a pdf-scan of a Russian Chant book from 1909, another being someone's attempt to reproduce this using a ttf that is typed in to a word-processor. It should be obvious which is which. If you like I can point out the short-comings of the ttf version. I can also tell you what the symbols are and point you to some online explanations of this simple notation, although I would warn you that there are two practices of interpreting the durations of these notes, of which practices the less accurate is the more common. If for some reason you are adverse to adding these symbols to lilypond's vocabulary, please let me know. You can download complete books in kievan notation in .pdf from this page: http://www.seminaria.ru/raritet/quadsborn.htm Thank you for your time. Monk Panteleimon Hermitage of the Holy Cross Wayne, WV USA [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/ http://www.holycrosskliros.org/ --- topo.png Description: PNG image toporki.png Description: PNG image ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
There no ligatures in Kievan notation (was Re: Kievan hatchet notes for lilypond?)
On Thursday 30 November 2006 06:01, you wrote: Hello, Panteleimon! Hello, thank you for your response I fear the task of fully implementing kievan chant notation is more than just a question of adding thirteen glyphs. recognize at least pes ligatures (those pairwise stacked rhombic glyphs) and clivis ligatures (e.g. the third glyph in the last line of the long example). Actually, those are not ligatures, and there are no ligatures at all in Kievan notation. The two stacked diamond-shapes you refer to are simply a half note. They refer to the space inbetween the two diamonds, in this case mi or b-natural. If the diamonds where in spaces, they would refer to the line in-between. The squiggly-with-stem and double-diamond-with-stem notes that also seem to take up several spaces are not ligatures either, just 16th notes. (By the way, the durations I cite are doubled by some transcribers in order to have a whole-note as the longest duration, but this gives an incorrect impression of the flow of the chant). To me, the notation looks structurally quite similar to gothic (also called hufnagel) chant notation, though the glyphs are somewhat different. I would be interested to know what notation looked like in Poland in the 1600's, to see if it has a parent for this style Still, adding those glyphs that are not part of ligatures (sole note heads, clefs, custos, accidentals, etc.) would be a good starting point (any volunteers?). As I understand it, the only things necessary *besides* adding the glyphs would be: 1. Spacing according text syllable. This is the only way notes are spaced in this chant, as you can see. There is a small even block of space between each textual syllable, all the notes whereof are equidistant and very close. %%%(This is part of what makes this notation better for Znamenny Chant, being closer in this regard to the neumatic origins and taking up less space for long, involved melismata. It looks ugly if you try to do it with round notes.)%%% My hope is that this can be accomplished simply making slurs invisible in the kievan-init.ly file | Slur #'transparent = ##t | and then convincing lilypond to put an appropriate block of space between syllables. At first I thought that this could be done with LyricSpace #'minimum-distance , but that would only work for short syllables. 2. Right now we can set shaped noteheads in LP like this: \set shapeNoteStyles = ##(fa # la fa # la mi) (or something like that). We'd have to do something similar but different in the init.ly for kievan, since several symbols (the quarter and the eight) have slightly different forms for lines and spaces. These differences are very important to the overall look of the music. Note that they differ not to according scale-position (like shapenotes) but according to whether they are on a line or space. That means that g,8 looks different from g8 Furthermore, the eigth note (block with long tail) has not two but *four* slightly different forms: two for stem-up and two for stem-down. I think that rest could be done just by thickening lines and such, except perhaps that the beams on the 16th notes (single beams) extend beyond the note-stems and half sort of blunt edges, but I'm sure that can be done without designing anything new, right? Thanks again for your response. I look forward to doing whatever I can to implement this feature. Sincerely, Monk Panteleimon Hermitage of the Holy Cross Wayne, WV USA [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/ http://www.holycrosskliros.org/ PS. I have an adaption of a long chant like this example in which the sequence of notes is almost exactly as in the Slavonic original. I can post both if you like, so you how can see how simple it really is. Greetings, Juergen On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, Monk Panteleimon wrote: Hello, developers of Lilypond. I submitted to the lilypond-user list a queru regarding the possibilty of adding symbols for kievan chant notation to lilyponds feta font. I got no response, but thought I'd try the developers, specifically those involved with older notations. I have counted thirteen symbols that would need adding to lilypond's font (presumably as noteheads, with their stems included, two dots and one clef) in order to enable lilypond to imitate the Chant-books of the Russian Orthodox Church. I have no idea how to make such characters, or how to fit them into lilypond, so I'm asking this to be added as a sponsored feature. Being a monk I have no personal money, but if the lilypond-developers can give me an estimated cost of sponsorship for the addition of these symbols, then I believe that I may be able find several people interested enough to support the feature, even if they are not already lilypond-users. I am thinking of some Russian Chant enthusiasts and people already developing ways to digitally reproduce Russian Liturgical books. I have
Re: dejavu kievan notation message
Hi. Just got a lilypond-devel email with first message about kievan notes in it again. I'm not sure how that happened, but I'm sorry for the repeat. Fr. P ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Fwd: Re: Kievan hatchet notes for lilypond?
---BeginMessage--- On Tuesday 05 December 2006 10:33, you wrote: Monk Panteleimon escreveu: For my information, would you include the stem as a single grob with the notehead? That is what I would expect, since slightly different stems are always attached to a slightly different notehead. No, probably not. All the stems are so similar that it would probably be easier to make a variable shape that is output as a postscript drawing. In that case, how many *glyphs* are we talking about for the 8th note? I had thought there would have to be four because of the differences in both stems and noteheads. No? I know I'm probably conflating glyph with grob here, but maybe you can explain the difference. All note stems are a single grob, even though there's different glyphs for, say, a standard stem and a mensural stem, right? The quarter-notes also have slightly different stems and noteheads, and the stems and noteheads meet at different places. So how many glyphs for the quarter note? This information will help me look for sponsors. [8^) Fr. P ---End Message--- ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: link to Kievan Notes page
Han-Wen wrote: Some questions: - what's the placement rule for the horizontal beams on 16ths? Beams are always horizontal, always cover a staff line and they don't care where they might intersect with note stems. For down-pointing stems, the beam covers a (la, second staff line from bottom) unless the run of 16ths contains a b or lower, in which case the beam moves down to the f line, the bottom of the staff. In order for the beam to be moved to the center-line, one of the notes must reach the higher f (top space) and the group must contain no notes *lower* than e. If the group contains an f but also a d, the beam remains on the a line. This scheme is precisely inverted for up-pointing pointing stems: Beam is on e unless run goes d or higher, in which case beam moves to g line (top). Run must contain low g to move beam to center line, but if the same run contains a note higher than a, the beam will stay on the e-line and will not descend to the center-line. I'm still looking for examples of beamed 16ths above the staff to see what they do. Having written all of that out, I think I see what you mean by special routine. - the length of 8th note stems varies between 2 and 2.5 staff space. What's the reasoning behind this? Juergen says: /* Mensural notation: For notes on staff lines, use different flags than for notes between staff lines. The idea is that flags are always vertically aligned with the staff lines, regardless if the note head is on a staff line or between two staff lines. In other words, the inner end of a flag always touches a staff line. */ I say: It definitely has this effect, and he's right to observe that we don't get the same affect with up-pointing stems. I don't know the reason, but I would point out that there are other differences between up-and-down line-8ths and space-8ths. The heads of line-8ths and space-8ths are different sizes, the space-heads begin smaller so as to more clearly show that they are contained in the space. The stem-up-space-eighths also have their head slightly slanted. So, they are really 4 different shapes, I think. Actually, I suspect that a lot of these little differences stem from the fact than when these books began to be mechanically typeset they were closely imitating a manuscript style. The different shape* (not just the length- the stem is thinner at the top) of the down-stem on a space-head, for example, comes from holding the pen differently in order to make a smaller notehead. At any rate, the 8th note is certainly the most common glyph in the bunch, and I suspect that the variety among is part of what makes it possible to set the notes so closely without a cramped or mechanical appearance. I have seen chant set with round notes that are spaced like kievan notes, and the appearance is painful. One more note about 8ths: Stems don't turn upwards until the notehead gets down to line 2. However, stem direction *is* decided by neighboring stems, so an a note can set a subsequent b upward, until a c turns the tide again. That deciduous-stem option sponsored by Basil Crow might come in handy here. (?) - how is the Y-position of the final (two horizontal bars) determined? The pitch is between the 2 bars, as with the halfnote. I may have misused the word final. I meant the last note of the hymn, which is held to an arbitrary duration. In the example listed first on my jpg image page: f1\fermata (could be f2\fermata, depending on what comes next). Thank you for your responses. I will respond separately to the other message about sponsorship. Fr. P ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Kievan hatchet notes for lilypond?
On Tuesday 05 December 2006 08:24, Han-Wen wrote: Hello, writing glyphs is a lot of work, usually, but these are relatively simple. Hence it should be doable for 60 EUR per glyph. Okay. Can someone translate that to USD for my benefit, or shall I seek out some web-based currency converter? Please pardon my provinciality. However, I suspect that writing glyphs isn't the end of it, as various symbols seem to need special routines for placing them. My intention is to start contacting some people who would be interested in this and to start kind of an adopt-a-glyph appeal on my music page. In the course of this I will make a more exacting list of glyphs. As for things needing special placement, it seems mostly to revolve around the 8th and 16th notes, correct? For my information, would you include the stem as a single grob with the notehead? That is what I would expect, since slightly different stems are always attached to a slightly different notehead. Fr. P ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
