Review: Accordion symbol name sanitization (was: Accordion push and pull symbols)
David Kastrup writes: > Carl Sorensen writes: > >> On 7/28/10 6:41 AM, "David Kastrup" wrote: >> >> PayPal, to carl_soren...@byu.edu would be very easy. > > Done. > > I am currently writing conversion rules in order to make the accordion > symbol names saner and am tearing out my hairs because > scripts/aux/makelsr.py does not bother to convert anything related to > accordions. > > lilypond-contributor offered no useful advice at all with regard to > conversions, and I did not find other scripts. Ok, I am stumped. How do I make the convert-ly rules take hold? http://codereview.appspot.com/1908041> -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Accordion push and pull symbols
Carl Sorensen writes: > On 7/28/10 6:41 AM, "David Kastrup" wrote: > > PayPal, to carl_soren...@byu.edu would be very easy. Done. I am currently writing conversion rules in order to make the accordion symbol names saner and am tearing out my hairs because scripts/aux/makelsr.py does not bother to convert anything related to accordions. lilypond-contributor offered no useful advice at all with regard to conversions, and I did not find other scripts. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Accordion push and pull symbols
On 7/28/10 6:41 AM, "David Kastrup" wrote: > Carl Sorensen writes: > >> I have just pushed a patch containing accordion push and pull symbols. >> >> Because this modifies the font, in order to see its effects, you will need >> to do >> >> make clean && make >> >> or >> >> rm mf/out/* && make >> >> in order to rebuild the font and see the new symbols. > > The latter was not sufficient for letting the new symbols appear in the > info documentation (of course after make info). make doc-clean && make or touch Documentation/included/font-table.ly && make should resolve that issue. > > What's your preferred form of receiving bounties? PayPal, to carl_soren...@byu.edu would be very easy. A check would also be fine. Thanks, Carl ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Accordion push and pull symbols
Carl Sorensen writes: > I have just pushed a patch containing accordion push and pull symbols. > > Because this modifies the font, in order to see its effects, you will need > to do > > make clean && make > > or > > rm mf/out/* && make > > in order to rebuild the font and see the new symbols. The latter was not sufficient for letting the new symbols appear in the info documentation (of course after make info). What's your preferred form of receiving bounties? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Accordion push and pull symbols
I have just pushed a patch containing accordion push and pull symbols. Because this modifies the font, in order to see its effects, you will need to do make clean && make or rm mf/out/* && make in order to rebuild the font and see the new symbols. Thanks, Carl ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
David Kastrup writes: > Carl Sorensen writes: > >> But here are the new names I'd propose: >> >> accDot --> dot >> accDiscant --> discant >> accFreebase --> freeBass >> accStdbase --> stdBass >> accBayanbase --> bayanBass >> accOldEE --> oldEE >> >> Do these make sense? > > So ok, can agree with your proposal. However, looking through the > other glyph names, I see no examples for CamelCase for the purpose of > word separation. For the sake of consistency, I'd just drop all the > CamelCase. About oldEE I can't say since I don't really know that > symbol. Ping? I'd like to work eventually on some accordion notation support, and I'd hate to make things harder for you with merge conflicts. It would appear that you have something worth committing in your output queue. Also it might make for vacation money... All the best, -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
Carl Sorensen writes: > But here are the new names I'd propose: > > accDot --> dot > accDiscant --> discant > accFreebase --> freeBass > accStdbase --> stdBass > accBayanbase --> bayanBass > accOldEE --> oldEE > > Do these make sense? All of these (with the possible exception of oldEE which I have absolutely no clue what it is supposed to actually be for for) are particular to building accordion registration symbols. While I don't expect any collisions, in particular accordion.dot may not exactly be a speaking name. accordion.register.dot, accordion.register.discant, ... may be somewhat clearer. On the other hand, that may be excessive bike shedding. And I don't need to worry what subcategory to place oldEE in... So ok, can agree with your proposal. However, looking through the other glyph names, I see no examples for CamelCase for the purpose of word separation. For the sake of consistency, I'd just drop all the CamelCase. About oldEE I can't say since I don't really know that symbol. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
Carl Sorensen writes: > But here are the new names I'd propose: > > accDot --> dot > accDiscant --> discant > accFreebase --> freeBass > accStdbase --> stdBass > accBayanbase --> bayanBass > accOldEE --> oldEE > > Do these make sense? All of these (with the possible exception of oldEE which I have absolutely no clue what it is supposed to actually be for for) are particular to building accordion registration symbols. While I don't expect any collisions, in particular accordion.dot may not exactly be a speaking name. accordion.register.dot, accordion.register.discant, ... may be somewhat clearer. On the other hand, that may be excessive bike shedding. And I don't need to worry what subcategory to place oldEE in... So ok, can agree with your proposal. However, looking through the other glyph names, I see no examples for CamelCase for the purpose of word separation. For the sake of consistency, I'd just drop all the CamelCase. About oldEE I can't say since I don't really know that symbol. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
On 7/9/10 8:36 AM, "David Kastrup" wrote:
> Carl Sorensen writes:
>
>> On 7/9/10 8:07 AM, "David Kastrup" wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Still, I think that the inner point of the angle (left by one slanted
>>> line width compared with the pull symbol) of the push symbol is a
>>> reasonably looking reference point for visual alignment with the left of
>>> a given notehead.
>>
>> OK, done.
>
> Looks good.
>
>> I've attached two files.
>>
>> The first, acctest3.pdf, shows the glyphs with the new settings.
>>
>> The second, accordion-test.pdf, shows that more than this markup will be
>> required. The code below was used to generate accordion-test.pdf:
>>
>> pull = \markup { \musicglyph #"scripts.accordion.pull"}
>>
>> push = \markup { \musicglyph #"scripts.accordion.push"}
>
> Not sure whether it is a good idea to have a separate subcategory when
> there is already a top hierarchy "accordion". Are there other
> instruments to push and pull? Maybe just scripts.pull and scripts.push?
> Or scripts.pushbellows in analogy with scripts.upbow?
D'oh! Of course it can be changed. I've moved them into the accordion
category, and now they're just "accordion.push" and "accordion.pull".
>
> By the way, can one introduce alias names? We have names like
> accordion.accFreebase which are quite absurd, containing two instances
> of "acc" and missspelling "free bass". Migrating to a saner glyph name
> would be a worthwhile longterm goal.
Since we have an accordion category, I see no reason to keep the "acc" at
the beginning of these glyphs. I'll have to make sure we don't get a
namespace collision if we change it just to "dot" from "accDot".
But here are the new names I'd propose:
accDot --> dot
accDiscant --> discant
accFreebase --> freeBass
accStdbase --> stdBass
accBayanbase --> bayanBass
accOldEE --> oldEE
Do these make sense?
Thanks,
Carl
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Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
Carl Sorensen writes:
> On 7/9/10 8:07 AM, "David Kastrup" wrote:
>
>>
>> Still, I think that the inner point of the angle (left by one slanted
>> line width compared with the pull symbol) of the push symbol is a
>> reasonably looking reference point for visual alignment with the left of
>> a given notehead.
>
> OK, done.
Looks good.
> I've attached two files.
>
> The first, acctest3.pdf, shows the glyphs with the new settings.
>
> The second, accordion-test.pdf, shows that more than this markup will be
> required. The code below was used to generate accordion-test.pdf:
>
> pull = \markup { \musicglyph #"scripts.accordion.pull"}
>
> push = \markup { \musicglyph #"scripts.accordion.push"}
Not sure whether it is a good idea to have a separate subcategory when
there is already a top hierarchy "accordion". Are there other
instruments to push and pull? Maybe just scripts.pull and scripts.push?
Or scripts.pushbellows in analogy with scripts.upbow?
By the way, can one introduce alias names? We have names like
accordion.accFreebase which are quite absurd, containing two instances
of "acc" and missspelling "free bass". Migrating to a saner glyph name
would be a worthwhile longterm goal.
> Note that the fingering numbers show up over the noteheads, while the sample
> piece shows the fingering numbers in a stack over the right-hand notehead.
>
> Also, the bellows indications are above the fingering numbers, rather
> than to the side of them.
Yup.
> Anyway, I thought it was worth a try to see how much needs to be done
> for the major bounty.
Looks closer than I thought. Likely the devil is in the details...
--
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Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
Carl Sorensen writes: > On 7/9/10 5:43 AM, "Carl Sorensen" wrote: > >> On 7/9/10 5:40 AM, "David Kastrup" wrote: >> >>> >>> I think that the "axis" of the pull symbol should be on the right edge >>> of its spine, of the push symbol on the optical right of the angle tip >>> (likely slightly left of the real angle tip), height should be the same, >>> and reference point flush with the symbol bottom. >>> >>> Does that sound reasonable? >> >> Yes, it does. I currently have the reference point at the bottom, but at >> the left side of the glyph instead of the right side. I'll change that and >> reprint. > > Here's a revised version, that has the reference point at the bottom right > for both glyphs. If you'd like the push glyph shifted to the right (i.e. > the reference point shifted to the left), give me a suggestion for how much. If you take a look at the following example, you'll see that my source does not exactly offer consistent spacing (obviously hand-engraved). Still, I think that the inner point of the angle (left by one slanted line width compared with the pull symbol) of the push symbol is a reasonably looking reference point for visual alignment with the left of a given notehead. Thanks! -- David Kastrup pullpush.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
On 7/9/10 5:43 AM, "Carl Sorensen" wrote: > On 7/9/10 5:40 AM, "David Kastrup" wrote: > >> >> I think that the "axis" of the pull symbol should be on the right edge >> of its spine, of the push symbol on the optical right of the angle tip >> (likely slightly left of the real angle tip), height should be the same, >> and reference point flush with the symbol bottom. >> >> Does that sound reasonable? > > Yes, it does. I currently have the reference point at the bottom, but at > the left side of the glyph instead of the right side. I'll change that and > reprint. Here's a revised version, that has the reference point at the bottom right for both glyphs. If you'd like the push glyph shifted to the right (i.e. the reference point shifted to the left), give me a suggestion for how much. Thanks, Carl acctest2.pdf Description: acctest2.pdf ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
On 7/9/10 5:43 AM, "Carl Sorensen" wrote: > On 7/9/10 5:40 AM, "David Kastrup" wrote: > >> >> I think that the "axis" of the pull symbol should be on the right edge >> of its spine, of the push symbol on the optical right of the angle tip >> (likely slightly left of the real angle tip), height should be the same, >> and reference point flush with the symbol bottom. >> >> Does that sound reasonable? > > Yes, it does. I currently have the reference point at the bottom, but at > the left side of the glyph instead of the right side. I'll change that and > reprint. Here's a revised version, that has the reference point at the bottom right for both glyphs. If you'd like the push glyph shifted to the right (i.e. the reference point shifted to the left), give me a suggestion for how much. Thanks, Carl ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
Carl Sorensen writes:
> On 7/9/10 3:38 AM, "Dmytro O. Redchuk" wrote:
>
>> On Thu 08 Jul 2010, 22:24 Carl Sorensen wrote:
>>> I've got a draft of accordion push and pull symbols. Please let me know
>>> what you think of them.
>> Looks like "pull" (">" -- it's a "pull", right?) has unequal sides?
> Actually, I think it's a push.
Yup. Points in the direction you are heading. Don't ask me what the
"pull" symbol is supposed to symbolize. Maybe it has something to do
with a "starting line" since an accordion piece has to start with a pull
unless the player takes special measures. And maybe some similarity
with upbow/downbow is intended.
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Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
On 7/9/10 5:40 AM, "David Kastrup" wrote: > Carl Sorensen writes: > >> I think that the engraver will need to move stuff around to align with >> the note column. It should be able to do that quite easily. > > Sure, but the metrics should provide a natural starting position for > that, so that equivalent symbols created for a non-Feta font have a > chance to be moved to a good place by the same engraver. > > I think that the "axis" of the pull symbol should be on the right edge > of its spine, of the push symbol on the optical right of the angle tip > (likely slightly left of the real angle tip), height should be the same, > and reference point flush with the symbol bottom. > > Does that sound reasonable? Yes, it does. I currently have the reference point at the bottom, but at the left side of the glyph instead of the right side. I'll change that and reprint. Thanks, Carl ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
Carl Sorensen writes: > I think that the engraver will need to move stuff around to align with > the note column. It should be able to do that quite easily. Sure, but the metrics should provide a natural starting position for that, so that equivalent symbols created for a non-Feta font have a chance to be moved to a good place by the same engraver. I think that the "axis" of the pull symbol should be on the right edge of its spine, of the push symbol on the optical right of the angle tip (likely slightly left of the real angle tip), height should be the same, and reference point flush with the symbol bottom. Does that sound reasonable? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
On 7/9/10 3:38 AM, "Dmytro O. Redchuk" wrote:
> On Thu 08 Jul 2010, 22:24 Carl Sorensen wrote:
>> I've got a draft of accordion push and pull symbols. Please let me know
>> what you think of them.
> Looks like "pull" (">" -- it's a "pull", right?) has unequal sides?
Actually, I think it's a push. David said the first symbol was a pull, and
this is the second symbol in the scan.
And you're right, the legs are slightly unequal. I had a mistake in the
metafont. Nice catch!
Thanks,
Carl
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Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
On 7/9/10 4:26 AM, "David Kastrup" wrote:
> Carl Sorensen writes:
>
>> I've got a draft of accordion push and pull symbols. Please let me know
>> what you think of them.
>
> The positioning in the images is off: the symbols should slightly
> precede the notes, in particular the pull symbol's vertical bar: if
> there are one-columned fingerings or accents on the notes, they should
> not require much shifting. That's different to how bowing instructions
> are placed, and arguably problematic for fast changing passages.
I'm not surprised the positioning is off. I have not done any positioning
work. They're just displayed with \markup { \musicglyph
#"scripts.accordion.push"}. After all, I signed up for the job of
developing push and pull symbols that would be "nicely integrating with the
normal Lilypond fonts (and not confusing with other accents or marks)".
The job of "creating the magic needed for placing them well in connection
with other articulations/fingerings" is still unclaimed.
>
> Now the scans I produced are from a somewhat older instrumental school,
> so they may be a bit overdone (it is astonishingly hard to find good
> references since much accordion music is not giving bellows directions
> apart from some orchestral stuff, and if they do, they are often placed
> manually).
>
> However, one has to be aware that an accordion is a polyphonic
> instrument often notated on multiple staffs, so in contrast to the usual
> violin score, you may have a large note column including material in a
> second system that is affected by the directional change, so it is
> conceptually tied closer to the system (or a two-staff subsystem) than
> to actual noteheads.
>
> I like the overall look of the symbols, but it may well we that shifting
> to the "natural" place should already be accomplished in the symbol
> rather than the engraver.
I think that the engraver will need to move stuff around to align with the
note column. It should be able to do that quite easily.
Thanks,
Carl
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Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
Hans Aberg writes: > On 9 Jul 2010, at 06:24, Carl Sorensen wrote: > >> I've got a draft of accordion push and pull symbols. Please let me >> know >> what you think of them. > > There is a variation of symbols. Blatter suggests using arrows: <- > above a notehead for open, -> for close, and <-> with the arrowheads > above two noteheads for a shake. LIke here > http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/texta/accordion.html > > A school by Anzaghi just uses the letters A and C in bold above the > notes. There are others like "P" and "T" (French, I think). But all those are rather easily created from existing letters and symbols. The ones I need and want are those I see in use over here. And I won't pay the bounty for others... -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
Carl Sorensen writes: > I've got a draft of accordion push and pull symbols. Please let me know > what you think of them. The positioning in the images is off: the symbols should slightly precede the notes, in particular the pull symbol's vertical bar: if there are one-columned fingerings or accents on the notes, they should not require much shifting. That's different to how bowing instructions are placed, and arguably problematic for fast changing passages. Now the scans I produced are from a somewhat older instrumental school, so they may be a bit overdone (it is astonishingly hard to find good references since much accordion music is not giving bellows directions apart from some orchestral stuff, and if they do, they are often placed manually). However, one has to be aware that an accordion is a polyphonic instrument often notated on multiple staffs, so in contrast to the usual violin score, you may have a large note column including material in a second system that is affected by the directional change, so it is conceptually tied closer to the system (or a two-staff subsystem) than to actual noteheads. I like the overall look of the symbols, but it may well we that shifting to the "natural" place should already be accomplished in the symbol rather than the engraver. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
On 9 Jul 2010, at 06:24, Carl Sorensen wrote: I've got a draft of accordion push and pull symbols. Please let me know what you think of them. There is a variation of symbols. Blatter suggests using arrows: <- above a notehead for open, -> for close, and <-> with the arrowheads above two noteheads for a shake. LIke here http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/texta/accordion.html A school by Anzaghi just uses the letters A and C in bold above the notes. Hans ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
On Thu 08 Jul 2010, 22:24 Carl Sorensen wrote:
> I've got a draft of accordion push and pull symbols. Please let me know
> what you think of them.
Looks like "pull" (">" -- it's a "pull", right?) has unequal sides?
I haven't noticed this in the scanned image. Sorry if this is my eyes' problem
again .)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carl
--
Dmytro O. Redchuk
Bug Squad
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Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
2010/7/9 Carl Sorensen : > I've got a draft of accordion push and pull symbols. Please let me know > what you think of them. They look great. Just a nitpick: in the scanned sample, the right edge of the symbol is aligned with the stem of the note. -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
I've got a draft of accordion push and pull symbols. Please let me know what you think of them. Thanks, Carl accpushpull.pdf Description: accpushpull.pdf ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
Carl Sorensen writes: >> The bounty is 25€ for creating symbols nicely integrating with the >> normal Lilypond fonts (and not confusable with other accents or marks), > > I'll take the font work. Great! -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
Can you give me a higher resolution scan of a push and pull symbol, so I can see what a good one looks like? Thanks, Carl ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
On 6/17/10 1:37 PM, "David Kastrup" wrote: > > > Here is a scan from typical uses of push and pull symbols (the very > first symbol is "pull" in every piece). The symbols usually appear > _before_ the fingering, at somewhat constant height independent from the > actual notes. > > They are used somewhat in analog with upbow/downbow symbols for bowed > string instruments. Because of the longer breath of the accordion, they > can be used above measure bars as well to indicate playing a whole (or > more) measures on one breath. In contrast to upbow/downbow, they tend > to appear slightly before the notes (even if there are no fingerings). > > Part of the reason may be that they need to be discernible even when > having (and playing) both bass and treble staff. > > The bounty is 25€ for creating symbols nicely integrating with the > normal Lilypond fonts (and not confusable with other accents or marks), > and 65€ for creating the magic needed for placing them well in > connection with other articulations/fingerings just when given simple > \push \pull style commands. There is another 10€ bounty to integrate > them with bars so that one can have whole pushbars and pullbars. I'll take the font work. Carl ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
[Request/Bounty] Accordion push and pull symbols
Here is a scan from typical uses of push and pull symbols (the very first symbol is "pull" in every piece). The symbols usually appear _before_ the fingering, at somewhat constant height independent from the actual notes. They are used somewhat in analog with upbow/downbow symbols for bowed string instruments. Because of the longer breath of the accordion, they can be used above measure bars as well to indicate playing a whole (or more) measures on one breath. In contrast to upbow/downbow, they tend to appear slightly before the notes (even if there are no fingerings). Part of the reason may be that they need to be discernible even when having (and playing) both bass and treble staff. The bounty is 25€ for creating symbols nicely integrating with the normal Lilypond fonts (and not confusable with other accents or marks), and 65€ for creating the magic needed for placing them well in connection with other articulations/fingerings just when given simple \push \pull style commands. There is another 10€ bounty to integrate them with bars so that one can have whole pushbars and pullbars. That's not oodles of money, but it is in areas I would prefer avoiding having to invest the time for getting acquainted with them. <> -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
