Re: Google Summer of Code, LilyPond and GNU
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 11:17 PM, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: On Mon, Mar 05, 2012 at 10:48:28PM +0100, Janek Warchoł wrote: Graham, i understand that you'll be our project administrator. When Ideas List will be up, you'll have to register at http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/homepage/google/gsoc2012 and fill our application (it consists of answering the 16 questions - for which we already have answers - and agreeing to admin agreement). What happens about the tax form? I'm not signing any legal document unless I'm certain it's the right thing. Is GNU submitting that foreign income thing for us ? ... although I suppose that GNU is an American organization, so they'd file a different tax form? I've asked on #gsoc IRC channel. The situation in our case is as follows: - we have no legal body, so we would be represented by an individual. This person will act as LilyPond Mentoring Organization inside GSoC, but this doesn't mean any legal implications outside GSoC. It means doing administration stuff for GSoC. - this person registers at GSoC and files LilyPond application, no legal documents are needed for that. The only legal outcome is that this person agrees to be LilyPond admin for GSoC. - from Google's point of view, this person is working for Google during GSoC (but it doesn't mean you become Google employee). $500 for mentoring organization is just a payment for this work. - To send this payment, Google needs tax-related documents. If the admin is not a US person, it needs just a declaration of this fact (that's what W-8BEN is used for). You don't need to be a US taxpayer. I repeat: non-US admin has to file W-8BEN form that roughly says hey, US government, i'm not American and this money is none of your business. - the $500 is an income for the admin, so he may need to pay taxes in his country. - i was (unofficially) told that if you don't send the W-8BEN form, Google doesn't get upset and simply doesn't send you the money, especially if you notify them about it. Bottom line: all the tax stuff is related to the admin payment, not to the participation in GSoC itself. Graham, does this answer your question? Janek ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Google Summer of Code, LilyPond and GNU
On Tue, Mar 06, 2012 at 01:22:42PM +0100, Janek Warchoł wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 11:17 PM, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: What happens about the tax form? I'm not signing any legal document unless I'm certain it's the right thing. Is GNU submitting that foreign income thing for us ? ... although I suppose that GNU is an American organization, so they'd file a different tax form? I've asked on #gsoc IRC channel. Thanks for clarifying this! - we have no legal body, so we would be represented by an individual. This person will act as LilyPond Mentoring Organization inside GSoC, but this doesn't mean any legal implications outside GSoC. It means doing administration stuff for GSoC. ok. - i was (unofficially) told that if you don't send the W-8BEN form, Google doesn't get upset and simply doesn't send you the money, especially if you notify them about it. Ok, if I'm the admin person, that is what I would do. Some people might view that as a waste of $500 (or more; IIRC it's $500 for each student). If so, then speak up and offer to be this admin person instead. - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Google Summer of Code, LilyPond and GNU
On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: Let's see if we can rescue this somehow. On Tue, Mar 06, 2012 at 09:52:00AM +0100, Janek Warchoł wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 11:17 PM, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: No. Put the patch on rietveld, and once people have commented, it gets pushed to staging. Aaargh! This will take 2 or 3 days. As a part of our application to GSoC we *must* include URL to our ideas list. So we must get it online As Soon As Possible! I'm not saying it needs to wait for a full countdown, but I think we should have it available for comment for some amount of time. ah, ok. I guess i'm stupid and ugly and don't know how to satisfy your question and handle all this, can you help me? First, yes I'll try to help you and get something worked out. Thanks! Second, don't sacrifice family or university for lilypond. David's situation is not good, but that is ultimately his responsibility. I don't think that he would want you to do poorly in university because of worrying about him. The situation for lilypond in general is no different: this is a volunteer, hobby project. It must come after family, education, and work. I appreciate the effort you have been putting into this, but I encourage you to shift your priorities. That's unlikely, i'm very stubborn. I'd rather try to make LilyPond/music engraving my source of income. I don't want the money. I have been very consistent about that. I don't want the $500, and I don't want the income. My personal taxes are complicated enough as they are; I have income from two different countries, I have over CDN$ 99,000 of education tax credit saved up (completely legal; I've been a student since 1997, almost all full-time); the tax auditors naturally look closely at my submissions. i didn't know that. sorry. With regards to that form, I don't know what to put for box 2 Country of incorportation or organization. I'm not an incorporation or organization... or is there a special tax definition of incorporation that includes private individuals? hmm. IIRC the instruction says an individual leaves this blank. Ignoring that, what should I do for box 4 permanent address ? I'm a student, soon to start doing a postdoc life where I switch to a different continent every 6 to 12 months. As far as i understand, this document is for Google and i've read that they don't care for changing address as long as it's outside US. Besides, i don't think this matters unless you're going to move during GSoC. Woah, part III Notional Principal Contracts!!! I have provided or will provide a statement that identifies those notional principal contracts from which the income is not effectively connected with the conduct of a trade or business in the United States. I agree to update this statement as required. What on earth does that mean?! I'm supposed to agree to send an affidavit saying that the money from google doesn't have anything to do with a business in the US? no wait, that's notorized, no notional. Huh, I guess I'd better spend half an hour looking into the definition of all those words. Part IV Certification. Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined the information on this form and to the best of my knowledge and belief it is true, I cannot do that. Not without spending probably a full working day looking up legal definitions for United States tax law. It's not because I'm actively worried that the US government is going to give my brother a hard time because of this form, nor am I actively worried that they'll extradite me on some legal technicality because I might have made a mistake in filling out the form. I cannot sign this form because I view my word as my bond. It would be dishonorable for me to make a claim unless I am totally certain that I am correct. That's something i can understand. Janek? I know that you want to be a student, but maybe you'd consider being the official admin for us instead, and keep the $500? You're much more familiar with GSoC than I am. unfortunately not. Only participating in GSoC as a student will enable me to spend all my summer on LilyPond, and that's what i want to do. On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: On Tue, Mar 06, 2012 at 01:22:42PM +0100, Janek Warchoł wrote: i was (unofficially) told that if you don't send the W-8BEN form, Google doesn't get upset and simply doesn't send you the money, especially if you notify them about it. Ok, if I'm the admin person, that is what I would do. Some people might view that as a waste of $500 (or more; IIRC it's $500 for each student). Yes, that's what the program FAQ says. I hope that if we're accepted we'll have at least 2 students. best Janek ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org
Re: Google Summer of Code, LilyPond and GNU
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Rodrigo Rodrigues da Silva pita...@members.fsf.org wrote: On Sat, 2012-03-03 at 23:56 +, Graham Percival wrote: Hmm. My instinct would be to try it separately, anyway. We're not the size of gcc or gnome, but we're not trivial: [...] Sure, you can always try. And if you don't make it you are welcome back to the GNU umbrella =] Rodrigo Rodrigues da Silva Okay, so i understand that we try applying individually. If on March 16 we won't be listed in accepted projects, we'll contact GNU and they'll add us to their umbrella, listing our projects on their Ideas List and so on. I will make a patch adding GSoC Ideas List to our webpage - Graham, will you recompile it? The patch should be ready before tomorrow 17:00 UTC. Graham, i understand that you'll be our project administrator. When Ideas List will be up, you'll have to register at http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/homepage/google/gsoc2012 and fill our application (it consists of answering the 16 questions - for which we already have answers - and agreeing to admin agreement). Who will be backup administrator? I think i don't qualify since i'm going to be the student. Carl? Anyone else? Backup admin is mandatory and has to register at GSoC webpage too. cheers, Janek ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Google Summer of Code, LilyPond and GNU
On Mon, Mar 05, 2012 at 10:48:28PM +0100, Janek Warchoł wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Rodrigo Rodrigues da Silva pita...@members.fsf.org wrote: On Sat, 2012-03-03 at 23:56 +, Graham Percival wrote: Hmm. My instinct would be to try it separately, anyway. We're not the size of gcc or gnome, but we're not trivial: [...] Sure, you can always try. And if you don't make it you are welcome back to the GNU umbrella =] Okay, so i understand that we try applying individually. If on March 16 we won't be listed in accepted projects, we'll contact GNU and they'll add us to their umbrella, listing our projects on their Ideas List and so on. Hmm, I'm not certain that's quite what he meant, but ok. I will make a patch adding GSoC Ideas List to our webpage - Graham, will you recompile it? No. Put the patch on rietveld, and once people have commented, it gets pushed to staging. Graham, i understand that you'll be our project administrator. When Ideas List will be up, you'll have to register at http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/homepage/google/gsoc2012 and fill our application (it consists of answering the 16 questions - for which we already have answers - and agreeing to admin agreement). What happens about the tax form? I'm not signing any legal document unless I'm certain it's the right thing. Is GNU submitting that foreign income thing for us ? ... although I suppose that GNU is an American organization, so they'd file a different tax form? - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Google Summer of Code, LilyPond and GNU
On 3/5/12 3:17 PM, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: What happens about the tax form? I'm not signing any legal document unless I'm certain it's the right thing. Is GNU submitting that foreign income thing for us ? ... although I suppose that GNU is an American organization, so they'd file a different tax form? I just registered. As part of the terms of service, we have to agree to supply either a W-9 or a foreign certification. As a US resident, I'd have to do a W-9 if I did it. A non-resident could use the foreign certification. Maybe we could take this conversation off-line. Thanks, Carl ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
