Re: Very Simple question

[Leonid Hrabovsky]

Hello Bernard, thank you!
What concerns imported watercolors and graphics, I never ever have gone so
far. My questions in the letter are the most basic ones related to my
notation style of 1960s. There are very few essentials left unmentioned.
Therefore I still expect somebody of the developers to comment these
snippets of code I submit in it. I tend to hold myself nearest to the
graphic vocabulary that LulyPond already contains.


*Леонід - Leonid*



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On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 6:38 PM Andrew Bernard 
wrote:

> Hello Leonid,
>
> Re contemporary notation, others have answered, but I would like to chime
> in.
>
> First let me say that Lilypond is extensible, via Scheme code and
> functions. So there is very little that you cannot achieve, with work.
> This requires an investment of time and learning Scheme, but you will
> be well rewarded.
>
> I set a lot of New Complexity School scores by a colleague of mine.
> The music can be very dense, and often departs from the Common Era
> period notation - which Lilypond is principally designed for.
> Consequently, over the years I have built an extensive library of
> Scheme functions to handle my needs. This is a big advantage of
> Lilypond over Those Other Programs.
>
> Adding to previous comments, music notation is not standardised once
> outside Common Era (and even then...). Each of the composers you
> mentioned has an idiosyncratic style. Each contemporary composer has
> their own take on notation. Some people use graphical notation, far
> from normal notes. It's unfortunate that there is even a section in
> the manual about contemporary notation. I suggest it would be better
> removed. Even if we had the large numbers of volunteers required, it
> is absurd to think somebody is going to devote hundreds of hours to
> modules just for say, Penderecki, when the demand for such is likely
> to be close to zero. This is saved by the fact that you can code what
> you need yourself, or ask help from the list with parts that you find
> tricky of difficult.
>
> Technical questions also do better with an example. Your requirements
> are non-specific. Can you post an image of a page of your typical
> score style you are considering, and I can give you advice on what to
> do. I can say at the start that if you are a composer that uses
> graphics and pictures and watercolour washes and so on, Lilypond is
> not the way to go. You'd burn out quickly trying to set that sort of
> music in Lilypond. A job for Inkscape or similar, as others have also
> mentioned. But do show us want you want to achieve.
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 23:28, Dan Eble  wrote:
> >
> > > -- Original Message --
> > > From: "Leonid Hrabovsky" 
> > > To: t.dani...@treda.co.uk
> > ...
> > >> So my question to you - how soon I and other users may expect the
> appearance of exhaustive covering all kinds of notation like Stockhausen,
> early Penderecki, Lutoslawski e.a.? Some isolated moments of it I see in
> Snippets, but it is far from enough for me.
> > >> Thank you in advance for your answer.
> >
> > Leonid,
> >
> > LilyPond is developed by volunteers working on whatever is worth the
> value of their discretionary time in their own eyes.  The only person who
> could answer your question would be one planning to do that work.
> >
> > I'm sure this response is unsatisfying, but it might the only response
> you get.
> >
> > Ciao,
> > —
> > Dan
> >
> >
>

Re: Very Simple question

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Leonid,

You wont get snippets into the baseline of Lilypond - that's a very long
drawn out process, naturally. But you can submit to Lilypond Snippet
Repository (LSR). People here will show you how. Also, there is the
OpenLilyLib project for somewhat more extensive code functions. I have
taken over the management of that but it is temporarily a bit out of
action, although the current git repository is still available, but not
currently taking pull requests. I'll be getting back to renovating OLL as
soon as I can. I recommended using OLL to publish code that many others may
find useful.

Would still like to see a page of yours as an example. Perhaps code to do
what you want already exists in various places. You can attach images in
this mailing list.

Andrew


On Sun, 31 Jan 2021 at 10:56, Leonid Hrabovsky  wrote:

> Hello Bernard, thank you!
> What concerns imported watercolors and graphics, I never ever have gone so
> far. My questions in the letter are the most basic ones related to my
> notation style of 1960s. There are very few essentials left unmentioned.
> Therefore I still expect somebody of the developers to comment these
> snippets of code I submit in it. I tend to hold myself nearest to the
> graphic vocabulary that LulyPond already contains.
>
>
> *Леонід - Leonid*
>
>>
>> > I'm sure this response is unsatisfying, but it might the only response
>> you get.
>> >
>> > Ciao,
>> > —
>> > Dan
>> >
>> >
>>
>

Re: Very Simple question

[Andrew Bernard]

Hello Leonid,

Re contemporary notation, others have answered, but I would like to chime in.

First let me say that Lilypond is extensible, via Scheme code and
functions. So there is very little that you cannot achieve, with work.
This requires an investment of time and learning Scheme, but you will
be well rewarded.

I set a lot of New Complexity School scores by a colleague of mine.
The music can be very dense, and often departs from the Common Era
period notation - which Lilypond is principally designed for.
Consequently, over the years I have built an extensive library of
Scheme functions to handle my needs. This is a big advantage of
Lilypond over Those Other Programs.

Adding to previous comments, music notation is not standardised once
outside Common Era (and even then...). Each of the composers you
mentioned has an idiosyncratic style. Each contemporary composer has
their own take on notation. Some people use graphical notation, far
from normal notes. It's unfortunate that there is even a section in
the manual about contemporary notation. I suggest it would be better
removed. Even if we had the large numbers of volunteers required, it
is absurd to think somebody is going to devote hundreds of hours to
modules just for say, Penderecki, when the demand for such is likely
to be close to zero. This is saved by the fact that you can code what
you need yourself, or ask help from the list with parts that you find
tricky of difficult.

Technical questions also do better with an example. Your requirements
are non-specific. Can you post an image of a page of your typical
score style you are considering, and I can give you advice on what to
do. I can say at the start that if you are a composer that uses
graphics and pictures and watercolour washes and so on, Lilypond is
not the way to go. You'd burn out quickly trying to set that sort of
music in Lilypond. A job for Inkscape or similar, as others have also
mentioned. But do show us want you want to achieve.

Andrew






On Sat, 30 Jan 2021 at 23:28, Dan Eble  wrote:
>
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Leonid Hrabovsky" 
> > To: t.dani...@treda.co.uk
> ...
> >> So my question to you - how soon I and other users may expect the 
> >> appearance of exhaustive covering all kinds of notation like Stockhausen, 
> >> early Penderecki, Lutoslawski e.a.? Some isolated moments of it I see in 
> >> Snippets, but it is far from enough for me.
> >> Thank you in advance for your answer.
>
> Leonid,
>
> LilyPond is developed by volunteers working on whatever is worth the value of 
> their discretionary time in their own eyes.  The only person who could answer 
> your question would be one planning to do that work.
>
> I'm sure this response is unsatisfying, but it might the only response you 
> get.
>
> Ciao,
> —
> Dan
>
>

Re: Very Simple question

[Thomas Morley]

Am Sa., 30. Jan. 2021 um 13:28 Uhr schrieb Dan Eble :
>
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Leonid Hrabovsky" 
> > To: t.dani...@treda.co.uk
> ...
> >> So my question to you - how soon I and other users may expect the 
> >> appearance of exhaustive covering all kinds of notation like Stockhausen, 
> >> early Penderecki, Lutoslawski e.a.? Some isolated moments of it I see in 
> >> Snippets, but it is far from enough for me.
> >> Thank you in advance for your answer.
>
> Leonid,
>
> LilyPond is developed by volunteers working on whatever is worth the value of 
> their discretionary time in their own eyes.  The only person who could answer 
> your question would be one planning to do that work.
>
> I'm sure this response is unsatisfying, but it might the only response you 
> get.
>
> Ciao,
> —
> Dan
>
>

Hi Leonid,

let me second what Dan said!
Furthermore, general asking for features to typeset contemporary music
like used by  is not very specific ...

You may try to ask for a certain feature (probably better on the
user-list, though).
If it's interesting, you may find someone creating it for you.

Writes the one who implemented `DurationLine`, afaik the one and only
entry in NR 2.8 Contemporary music ;)

Best,
  Harm

Re: Very Simple question

[Paolo Prete]

IMHO, you already have an answer and you can already know what is possible
and what will remain possible in the future:

1) If you are planning to *copy* non standard notation (like Stockhausen,
Penderecki etc.) you can simply use LilyPond + Inkscape. Just write a stub
with Lilypond for the standard part and then use Inkscape for the non
standard part.

2) if you are planning to write new music in non-standard notation, it is
impossibile that a notation software will accomplish that, because that
notation is not standardized, nor there is a list of rules, nor there is a
shared procedure.

Best,
Paolo



On Saturday, January 30, 2021, Trevor  wrote:

> Forwarding to LilyPond development list as I am no longer actively
> involved in Lily's development
>
> Trevor
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Leonid Hrabovsky" 
> To: t.dani...@treda.co.uk
> Sent: 30/01/2021 02:17:46
> Subject: Very Simple question
>
> Dear Mr.Daniels,
>> as a composer using the most advanced notation forms, and being
>> disappointed by inability of both Sibelius and Finale to meet my needs, I
>> turned recently to LilyPond and see that there is a real hope for me to
>> typeset my old scores still waiting since 1960-s. I have downloaded all
>> manuals and feel that there are some hidden smart tricks allowing most
>> crazy notational phenomena. But when I look into 2.8 Contemporary music
>> section of Notation, I see that most sub-chapters here are still empty. So
>> my question to you - how soon I and other users may expect the appearance
>> of exhaustive covering all kinds of notation like Stockhausen, early
>> Penderecki, Lutoslawski e.a.? Some isolated moments of it I see in
>> Snippets, but it is far from enough for me.
>> Thank you in advance for your answer.
>>
>> Very truly yours,
>>
>> Leonid Hrabovsky
>> Леонід - Leonid
>>
>>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com > il?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&u
>> tm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>
>
>

Re: Very Simple question

[Dan Eble]

> -- Original Message --
> From: "Leonid Hrabovsky" 
> To: t.dani...@treda.co.uk
...
>> So my question to you - how soon I and other users may expect the appearance 
>> of exhaustive covering all kinds of notation like Stockhausen, early 
>> Penderecki, Lutoslawski e.a.? Some isolated moments of it I see in Snippets, 
>> but it is far from enough for me.
>> Thank you in advance for your answer.

Leonid,

LilyPond is developed by volunteers working on whatever is worth the value of 
their discretionary time in their own eyes.  The only person who could answer 
your question would be one planning to do that work.

I'm sure this response is unsatisfying, but it might the only response you get.

Ciao,
— 
Dan

Re: Very Simple question

[Trevor]

Forwarding to LilyPond development list as I am no longer actively 
involved in Lily's development


Trevor

-- Original Message --
From: "Leonid Hrabovsky" 
To: t.dani...@treda.co.uk
Sent: 30/01/2021 02:17:46
Subject: Very Simple question


Dear Mr.Daniels,
as a composer using the most advanced notation forms, and being 
disappointed by inability of both Sibelius and Finale to meet my needs, 
I turned recently to LilyPond and see that there is a real hope for me 
to typeset my old scores still waiting since 1960-s. I have downloaded 
all manuals and feel that there are some hidden smart tricks allowing 
most crazy notational phenomena. But when I look into 2.8 Contemporary 
music section of Notation, I see that most sub-chapters here are still 
empty. So my question to you - how soon I and other users may expect 
the appearance of exhaustive covering all kinds of notation like 
Stockhausen, early Penderecki, Lutoslawski e.a.? Some isolated moments 
of it I see in Snippets, but it is far from enough for me.

Thank you in advance for your answer.

Very truly yours,

Leonid Hrabovsky
Леонід - Leonid


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