Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
>> Well, it's not about the existing layout – even if we are going to >> use double-sided formatting, it wouldn't change much (besides some >> shifts in page numbering). The thing is that only in double-sided >> mode I can easily arrange the documentation to make the visual >> index appear on facing pages. > > [...] In the NR, there are some sections of prose followed by > relevant code snippets and the rendered result that sometimes > awkwardly span across a page break, requiring flipping back and > forth. Indeed, this can be manually improved by inserting proper `@need` instructions. Note that it can only be improved and not fixed; in general, it is impossible to have a book-like layout with so many examples and just a few words plain text inbetween. With 'book-like' I mean non-ragged page bottoms that don't have excessive vertical space on the pages. > For single-sided formatting, the only option is to try to fit things > to one page; but with double-sided formatting, you would have the > option to utilize facing pages. This is a *hard* problem. Knuth's TeX engine has no support for that. There is active research to implement something like that for LaTeX using LuaTeX. But even if this might be possible to a certain extent, there are far too much examples to achieve good results for all of them. > But again, I do not think double-sided formatting is strictly > required for much of the existing content. The new visual index > would be one of the few things that I think benefits reliably laying > out side-by-side. Well, we don't have to take care of it at all; it's just inserting this single line of code I mentioned, and everything else is happening automatically. BTW, it would also make sense to improve the appendix holding the cheat sheet to cover exactly two pages; this could be a second benefit of two-side layout. Werner
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
On 2022-08-03 5:12 am, Werner LEMBERG wrote: While the typesetting probably could use left-facing and right-facing pages more intentionally, I have never really had any problems with the existing layout. Well, it's not about the existing layout – even if we are going to use double-sided formatting, it wouldn't change much (besides some shifts in page numbering). The thing is that only in double-sided mode I can easily arrange the documentation to make the visual index appear on facing pages. Theoretically, the documentation could be optimized for page turning, much like we do for music. In the NR, there are some sections of prose followed by relevant code snippets and the rendered result that sometimes awkwardly span across a page break, requiring flipping back and forth. For single-sided formatting, the only option is to try to fit things to one page; but with double-sided formatting, you would have the option to utilize facing pages. But again, I do not think double-sided formatting is strictly required for much of the existing content. The new visual index would be one of the few things that I think benefits reliably laying out side-by-side. -- Aaron Hill
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
> While the typesetting probably could use left-facing and > right-facing pages more intentionally, I have never really had any > problems with the existing layout. Well, it's not about the existing layout – even if we are going to use double-sided formatting, it wouldn't change much (besides some shifts in page numbering). The thing is that only in double-sided mode I can easily arrange the documentation to make the visual index appear on facing pages. Werner
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
> Le 3 août 2022 à 13:53, Aaron Hill a écrit : > > On 2022-08-03 4:24 am, Jean Abou Samra wrote: Le 3 août 2022 à 13:12, Dan Eble a écrit : >>> If the index were split into two pages, I would prefer to see them together. >>> I don't say that having to flip pages would rise to the level of "problem", >>> but it would be an inferior experience. >> I probably misunderstood the problem. Are you using a PDF reader where >> two pages at a time are shown at a time like when reading a book? If >> so, I understand the request. I thought this was uncommon, but I have >> no idea after all. > > As a data point: I do use "book view" with all the manuals. > > While the typesetting probably could use left-facing and right-facing pages > more intentionally, I have never really had any problems with the existing > layout. OK, I stand corrected. Today I learned :-)
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
On 2022-08-03 4:24 am, Jean Abou Samra wrote: Le 3 août 2022 à 13:12, Dan Eble a écrit : If the index were split into two pages, I would prefer to see them together. I don't say that having to flip pages would rise to the level of "problem", but it would be an inferior experience. I probably misunderstood the problem. Are you using a PDF reader where two pages at a time are shown at a time like when reading a book? If so, I understand the request. I thought this was uncommon, but I have no idea after all. As a data point: I do use "book view" with all the manuals. While the typesetting probably could use left-facing and right-facing pages more intentionally, I have never really had any problems with the existing layout. -- Aaron Hill
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
Hi Jean, > I probably misunderstood the problem. Are you using a PDF reader where two > pages at a time are shown at a time like when reading a book? If so, I > understand the request. I thought this was uncommon, but I have no idea after > all. This is my main way of reading PDFs! I have a widescreen [second] monitor, which can easily display two letter-sized (or equivalent) pages side-by-side. So much more convenient than single PDF pages or scrolling! Cheers, Kieren.
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
> On Aug 3, 2022, at 07:24, Jean Abou Samra wrote: > > > >> Le 3 août 2022 à 13:12, Dan Eble a écrit : >> >> On Aug 3, 2022, at 06:10, Jean Abou Samra wrote: >>> Le 3 août 2022 à 11:44, Werner LEMBERG a écrit : Two weeks ago Dan asked the following: >> Can you force them to face each other? > > I think so, yes, with some TeX trickery. >> [… it is possible …] >>> >>> Sorry for jumping in as someone without any expertise in typography, but I >>> can’t help thinking: why create the problem if it doesn’t already exist? :-) >> >> If the index were split into two pages, I would prefer to see them together. >> >> I don't say that having to flip pages would rise to the level of "problem", >> but it would be an inferior experience. > > > I probably misunderstood the problem. Are you using a PDF reader where two > pages at a time are shown at a time like when reading a book? If so, I > understand the request. I thought this was uncommon, but I have no idea after > all. I usually use the Preview app in macOS, which has a few modes: • Show pages in a continuous scroll: Choose View > Continuous Scroll. • Show one page at a time: Choose View > Single Page. • Show two pages side by side: Choose View > Two Pages. — Dan
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
> Le 3 août 2022 à 13:12, Dan Eble a écrit : > > On Aug 3, 2022, at 06:10, Jean Abou Samra wrote: >> >>> Le 3 août 2022 à 11:44, Werner LEMBERG a écrit : >>> >>> >>> Two weeks ago Dan asked the following: >>> > Can you force them to face each other? I think so, yes, with some TeX trickery. >>> > [… it is possible …] >> >> Sorry for jumping in as someone without any expertise in typography, but I >> can’t help thinking: why create the problem if it doesn’t already exist? :-) > > If the index were split into two pages, I would prefer to see them together. > > I don't say that having to flip pages would rise to the level of "problem", > but it would be an inferior experience. I probably misunderstood the problem. Are you using a PDF reader where two pages at a time are shown at a time like when reading a book? If so, I understand the request. I thought this was uncommon, but I have no idea after all. > If accommodating it would disrupt the rest of the NR, then I think it would > be better to make the visual index a separate document.
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
On Aug 3, 2022, at 06:10, Jean Abou Samra wrote: > > Le 3 août 2022 à 11:44, Werner LEMBERG a écrit : >> >> >> Two weeks ago Dan asked the following: >> Can you force them to face each other? >>> >>> I think so, yes, with some TeX trickery. >> [… it is possible …] > > Sorry for jumping in as someone without any expertise in typography, but I > can’t help thinking: why create the problem if it doesn’t already exist? :-) If the index were split into two pages, I would prefer to see them together. I don't say that having to flip pages would rise to the level of "problem", but it would be an inferior experience. If accommodating it would disrupt the rest of the NR, then I think it would be better to make the visual index a separate document. — Dan
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
> Le 3 août 2022 à 11:44, Werner LEMBERG a écrit : > > > Two weeks ago Dan asked the following: > >>> Can you force them to face each other? >> >> I think so, yes, with some TeX trickery. > > I've now had a closer look. Currently, LilyPond's PDF documentation > is created in single-side mode, i.e., the page numbers are always in > the upper right corner. It is possible to get a two-sided layout by > inserting `@setchapternewpage odd`; this also makes chapters always > start on an odd page. This first page of the visual index chapter > could be used for some explanations, and the next two pages would be > then facing each other, as desired. Sorry for jumping in as someone without any expertise in typography, but I can’t help thinking: why create the problem if it doesn’t already exist? :-) > However, I think it would be still necessary to create the visual > index outside of the `lilypond-book` framework; the necessary tight > vertical typesetting is rather diametral to splitting the snippet into > single staves that are then glued together as boxes with some vertical > space inbetween, causing far too large vertical distances. IIRC, it inserts the entire output instead of separate images if you use an explicit \book. > > >Werner >
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
Two weeks ago Dan asked the following: >> Can you force them to face each other? > > I think so, yes, with some TeX trickery. I've now had a closer look. Currently, LilyPond's PDF documentation is created in single-side mode, i.e., the page numbers are always in the upper right corner. It is possible to get a two-sided layout by inserting `@setchapternewpage odd`; this also makes chapters always start on an odd page. This first page of the visual index chapter could be used for some explanations, and the next two pages would be then facing each other, as desired. However, I think it would be still necessary to create the visual index outside of the `lilypond-book` framework; the necessary tight vertical typesetting is rather diametral to splitting the snippet into single staves that are then glued together as boxes with some vertical space inbetween, causing far too large vertical distances. Werner
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
> Two pages in an NR appendix. OK. > Can you force them to face each other? I think so, yes, with some TeX trickery. Werner
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
On Jul 13, 2022, at 15:26, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > > * How shall the visualindex file be integrated into LilyPond's > documentation? > > - A separate, stand-alone file? Where should it be put? > - Part of the NR as an appendix? > - Something else? Two pages in an NR appendix. Can you force them to face each other? — Dan
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
Two pages, NR appendix Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S®6 active, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> From: lilypond-devel on behalf of Colin Campbell Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2022 2:25:55 PM To: lilypond-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex' On 2022-07-13 13:26, Werner LEMBERG wrote: > Folks, > > > I want to add Joram Berger's 'visualindex' sheet to LilyPond – > attached you can find my current version. There are some open > questions. > > * It is not possible to display all LilyPond grobs on a single A4 (or >Letter) sheet of paper. Additionally, the sheet is *very* crowded. > >Shall I use a second page, or shall I prepare something in A3 >landscape? What do you prefer? How would you use it? It might >also depend on the next question, which is: > > * How shall the visualindex file be integrated into LilyPond's >documentation? > >- A separate, stand-alone file? Where should it be put? >- Part of the NR as an appendix? >- Something else? Quick reactions: A worthy project indeed! Two letter size pages, please. Should go into the NR, as an appendix. Cheers, Colin
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
Le 13/07/2022 à 22:25, Colin Campbell a écrit : On 2022-07-13 13:26, Werner LEMBERG wrote: Folks, I want to add Joram Berger's 'visualindex' sheet to LilyPond – attached you can find my current version. There are some open questions. * It is not possible to display all LilyPond grobs on a single A4 (or Letter) sheet of paper. Additionally, the sheet is *very* crowded. Shall I use a second page, or shall I prepare something in A3 landscape? What do you prefer? How would you use it? It might also depend on the next question, which is: * How shall the visualindex file be integrated into LilyPond's documentation? - A separate, stand-alone file? Where should it be put? - Part of the NR as an appendix? - Something else? Quick reactions: A worthy project indeed! Two letter size pages, please. Two A4 size pages, please :-) (The PDF manuals use A4 format.) Of course, in HTML, the page count isn't relevant and it will just end up as a bunch of systems. Should go into the NR, as an appendix. +1. There are already a number of visual appendices there (like the note head styles, the Feta glyphs, ...). Best, Jean
Re: integrating Joram's 'visualindex'
On 2022-07-13 13:26, Werner LEMBERG wrote: Folks, I want to add Joram Berger's 'visualindex' sheet to LilyPond – attached you can find my current version. There are some open questions. * It is not possible to display all LilyPond grobs on a single A4 (or Letter) sheet of paper. Additionally, the sheet is *very* crowded. Shall I use a second page, or shall I prepare something in A3 landscape? What do you prefer? How would you use it? It might also depend on the next question, which is: * How shall the visualindex file be integrated into LilyPond's documentation? - A separate, stand-alone file? Where should it be put? - Part of the NR as an appendix? - Something else? Quick reactions: A worthy project indeed! Two letter size pages, please. Should go into the NR, as an appendix. Cheers, Colin
