Re: Odd vertical spacing of lyrics
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:58:46PM +0100, Jan Warchoł wrote: > Graham, > > 2011/1/19 Graham Percival : > > If necessary, we can pretend that it's deliberate (after noting it > > in the Changes document), call it a non-regression, make it > > non-critical, and have a release. That's no reason to not submit > > a good bug report about it now. > > Indeed i thought that vertical spacing is simply intended to work this > way and that it's not a bug. I thought that this would just be an > enhancement suggestion, with slight chances to have a high priority. > Clearly i'm wrong. I wouldn't say "clearly" -- I have no clue what we're talking about. I ignore almost all discussion about lyrics, so I don't know what kind of "odd vertical spacing" you're talking about. My goal is just to clear up misunderstandings about reporting bugs and/or our release policy. I saw Mike write "... get this fixed in one of the first 2.14 bug fixes..." and you responded with "this issue is important and potentially widespread... I suppose that's what we should do: release 2.14 and fix this issue thoroughly soon after that". Regardless of the actual issue -- again, I don't know what the code looks like or what the image looks like -- if two people are wondering if it's a bug, then I want a proper bug report, and I want the bug squad to add it to the tracker. Do not think about releases, do not think about scheduling programmers, do not pass go, do not collect $200 [1]. Just send in the report. [1] that's a common joke in English. Maybe a developer will say "not a bug; this is an enhancement". That's fine! Changing the tags on issues is not a problem; this is part of our normal workflow. You shouldn't worry about that, and the bug squad shouldn't worry about that. You send in the report. The bug squad looks for any obvious omissions, then either asks you for more info, or adds it to the tracker. If the issue is added as defect-critical-regression, and ends up being enhancement-low-frog, that's ok! Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Odd vertical spacing of lyrics
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:49:01PM +0100, James Bailey wrote: > > On Jan 19, 2011, at 10:53 PM, Graham Percival wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 10:28:38PM +0100, Jan Warchoł wrote: > > Please submit a bug report and let's get it in the tracker. > > Doubly so if it's a regression. > > Exactly this reasoning was the reason for my question, "what > advantages does the new lyric spacing offer?" I think if we > understand this, we can understand how to explain it, and make > it easy for people to understand what needs to change and how. Yes, but I think the first step to understanding it is to have a Tiny example in the tracker. If you have a Tiny example (ideally without tweaks) that looks good in 2.12 and looks... "different"... in 2.13, then we can discuss whether that "different" is better or worse. Maybe the solution will be code. Maybe the solution will be better documentation. Maybe the solution will merely be adding one sentence to the Changes document saying "yeah, it's changed; deal with it". I'm not pre-judging which option is the best, nor which one we'll take -- but any of those cases should begin from a Tiny example in the bug tracker. (and if you cannot produce a lyric example which is "different" without using tweaks, then that itself is an interesting data point, and which could serve to narrow the focus of the discussion) Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Odd vertical spacing of lyrics
Graham, 2011/1/19 Graham Percival : > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 10:28:38PM +0100, Jan Warchoł wrote: >> 2011/1/19 Mike Solomon : >> > It may be worth it to add this to the issue tracker and get this fixed in >> > one of the first 2.14 bug fixes (if not 2.14 itself) - thoughts? >> >> In my opinion this issue is important and potentially widespread, and >> as such it should be considered a high priority one. > > In my opinion, I don't care about your opinion, but I *do* care > about evidence of bugs. Please submit a bug report and let's get > it in the tracker. Doubly so if it's a regression. > >> I suppose that's what we should do: release 2.14 and fix this issue >> thoroughly soon after that. > > If there's an actual regression, make a bug report. If you don't > do it now, then somebody else will do it 12 days after we release > the final release candidate, and we'll have to scrap the release > plans and it'll be much more disheartening to have it happen then. > > If necessary, we can pretend that it's deliberate (after noting it > in the Changes document), call it a non-regression, make it > non-critical, and have a release. That's no reason to not submit > a good bug report about it now. Sorry for that. Indeed i thought that vertical spacing is simply intended to work this way and that it's not a bug. I thought that this would just be an enhancement suggestion, with slight chances to have a high priority. Clearly i'm wrong. I'll investigate and report it tomorrow. 2011/1/19 Keith OHara : > I started a lyrics template and shortcuts, but do not use lyrics myself, so I > am wandering a bit aimlessly when I work on it. It sits on my to-do list for some time now... Sorry about that. I'll try to find more time and investigate. Janek ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Odd vertical spacing of lyrics
On Jan 19, 2011, at 10:53 PM, Graham Percival wrote: > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 10:28:38PM +0100, Jan Warchoł wrote: >> 2011/1/19 Mike Solomon : >>> It may be worth it to add this to the issue tracker and get this fixed in >>> one of the first 2.14 bug fixes (if not 2.14 itself) - thoughts? >> >> In my opinion this issue is important and potentially widespread, and >> as such it should be considered a high priority one. > > In my opinion, I don't care about your opinion, but I *do* care > about evidence of bugs. Please submit a bug report and let's get > it in the tracker. Doubly so if it's a regression. That's part of the problem. Is it a bug if something changed? Technically, no, as far as I understand the term "bug". Is it convoluted and difficult to use? Would graham's mother have difficulty understanding the documentation on getting a simple arrangement for her church choir to work the same way in 2.13 as it did in 2.12? Probably. If I opened a bug report that was essentially, "Lyrics are now more difficult to use. Type - Regression, Priority - Critical", someone would probably close is as invalid very quickly. Exactly this reasoning was the reason for my question, "what advantages does the new lyric spacing offer?" I think if we understand this, we can understand how to explain it, and make it easy for people to understand what needs to change and how. ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Odd vertical spacing of lyrics
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 10:28:38PM +0100, Jan Warchoł wrote: > 2011/1/19 Mike Solomon : > > It may be worth it to add this to the issue tracker and get this fixed in > > one of the first 2.14 bug fixes (if not 2.14 itself) - thoughts? > > In my opinion this issue is important and potentially widespread, and > as such it should be considered a high priority one. In my opinion, I don't care about your opinion, but I *do* care about evidence of bugs. Please submit a bug report and let's get it in the tracker. Doubly so if it's a regression. > I suppose that's what we should do: release 2.14 and fix this issue > thoroughly soon after that. If there's an actual regression, make a bug report. If you don't do it now, then somebody else will do it 12 days after we release the final release candidate, and we'll have to scrap the release plans and it'll be much more disheartening to have it happen then. If necessary, we can pretend that it's deliberate (after noting it in the Changes document), call it a non-regression, make it non-critical, and have a release. That's no reason to not submit a good bug report about it now. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Odd vertical spacing of lyrics
2011/1/19 Mike Solomon :
> I'll chime in and say that, although there is a workaround, the fact that
> there is not good out-of-the-box spacing may effect a lot of real world
> examples of choral music that is being engraved using lilypond.
>
> It may be worth it to add this to the issue tracker and get this fixed in one
> of the first 2.14 bug fixes (if not 2.14 itself) - thoughts?
In my opinion this issue is important and potentially widespread, and
as such it should be considered a high priority one.
I also think that a good solution would mean changing the lyrics
spacing mechanisms considerably (especially because it's connected
with some vertical and horizontal lyrics spacing issues that should be
addressed).
I have some thoughts on these topics, but from what i see the
discussion about them may become monstrous in size, so i'm waiting
until 2.14 is out.
I suppose that's what we should do: release 2.14 and fix this issue
thoroughly soon after that.
cheers,
Janek
> Is there a way to add this to the issue tracker.
>
> On Jan 19, 2011, at 3:42 PM, Jan Warchoł wrote:
>
>> 2011/1/18 Carl Sorensen
>>>
>>> On 1/18/11 8:26 AM, "Mike Solomon" wrote:
>>>
Hey all,
The following snippet is giving me the attached output w/ the soprano line
shifted way up after the line break. Is there any way to get the soprano
correctly aligned (w/o changing the distance between systems - this minimal
example approximates a larger one w/ many systems over several pages).
\version "2.13.47"
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> I got it to work successfully with the following change:
>>>
>>> \new Lyrics = sopranos \with {
>>> \override VerticalAxisGroup #'staff-affinity = #DOWN
>>> } { s1 }
>>>
>>>
>>> The lyrics were still a little bit high, however. It's almost like there's
>>> a blank context hiding in the middle. But I haven't been able to get rid of
>>> that small amount of extra space.
>>
>> The reference point of lyrics is the baseline and this is the cause of
>> the problem - #'nonstaff-relatedstaff-spacing #'basic-distance
>> appropriate for lyrics below staff is not appropriate for lyrics above
>> staff. Consider the following (and look at the attachment):
>>
>> \version "2.13.45"
>>
>> \paper { system-system-spacing #'basic-distance = #20 ragged-right = ##t }
>>
>> \score {
>> \new ChoirStaff <<
>> \new Lyrics = abovelyrics \with { \override VerticalAxisGroup
>> #'staff-affinity = #DOWN }
>> { s1 }
>> \new Staff {
>> \new Voice = "empty" { r4 r r r \break } \new Voice =
>> "firstPart" { f' f' f' f' } \new Voice = "secondPart" { e'' e'' e''
>> e'' }
>> }
>> \new Lyrics = "belowlyrics" { s1 }
>>
>> \context Lyrics = abovelyrics \lyricsto firstPart \lyricmode { ma
>> -- ma ma -- ma }
>> \context Lyrics = belowlyrics \lyricsto secondPart \lyricmode { mo
>> mo -- mo mo }
>> \layout {
>> \context {
>> % \Lyrics \override VerticalAxisGroup
>> #'nonstaff-relatedstaff-spacing #'basic-distance = #4
>> }
>> }
>> }
>>
>> You can see how this changes by uncommenting the
>> nonstaff-relatedstaff-spacing override.
>>
>> The strange thing is that all this somehow doesn't affect first system.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Janek
>
>
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Re: Vertical spacing of lyrics
Christian Hitz wrote:
Hi,
the new vertical spacing is evaluating the skyline of the lyrics lines for
spacing. This leads to situations with a very uneven look, as the example
below shows. IMHO the tallest glyph in the used font should be used to
derive the height of the lyrics line.
This very much depends on what you engrave. If you're making larger
scores with many staves per system, vertical space is pretty much more
important than everything else, and it's common practice to fit the
lyrics as tight to the staves and as close together as possible.
If you want to have a more equal spacing, try modifying the LyricText
#'minimum-Y-extent or (not sure if this works out) the new
Lyrics.VerticalAxisGroup #'inter-loose-line-spacing [1]. E.g., in your
example, adding
\layout {
\context {
\Lyrics
\override LyricText #'minimum-Y-extent = #'(-1.5 . 1.5)
}
}
to the score seems to solve the problem for me.
There are simple "workarounds" to simulate the
one-box-to-rule-all-glyphs-approach, but if you decide to drop the
skyline algorithm, it's nearly impossible to automatically achieve the
tighter setting.
Cheers,
Alexander
[1] http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2009-10/msg00215.html
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Vertical spacing of lyrics
Hi,
the new vertical spacing is evaluating the skyline of the lyrics lines for
spacing. This leads to situations with a very uneven look, as the example
below shows. IMHO the tallest glyph in the used font should be used to
derive the height of the lyrics line.
Regards,
Christian
\version "2.13.7"
\score {
<<
\context Voice = "I" \relative c' {
c4 d e f
}
\new Lyrics \lyricsto "I" \lyricmode { g a a a }
\new Lyrics \lyricsto "I" \lyricmode { t a a a }
\new Lyrics \lyricsto "I" \lyricmode { a a a a }
>>
}
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