Re: Thoughts about the LilyPond web site

[Federico Bruni]

Il 27/feb/2015 17:18 "Joram"  ha scritto:
>
> > So our basic workflows starting from Texinfo input (and integrated with
> > the workflow of translators) are something that is not easily replaced
> > by something "more modern".
>
> I don't know the details of these translators etc. but I suppose a lot
> can be done just using CSS.

David was talking about the languages.
However the translation of content, as it's currently implemented, can be
done with whatever modern tool, as long as it's text based.
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Re: Thoughts about the LilyPond web site

[David Kastrup]

Joram  writes:

> Hi David,
>
>> Which means that one cannot just click things together with some web
>> design tool resulting in a Flash page inaccessible to blind readers and
>> only rendering as intended on Internet Explorer.
>
> That is a very bad style of communication on your end! I am *not*
> talking about clicking, not about a flash page, not about non-standard
> tools and not about the Internet Explorer, ok? These are just
> insinuations. With this attitude you can indeed scare away all possible
> contributors.
>
> On the contrary, I am talking about using up-to-date web-standards,
> html5 and css and producing an accessible website.

HTML5 has been ratified last October.  It is too new to be supported by
a majority of installed browsers.  At any rate, our HTML generally is
written by texi2html.  Even if Texinfo offers the ability to put in
user-defined HTML passages, it would not make much sense to use it for
inserting considerably newer constructs than the bulk of the manual will
carry.

> Most modern approaches care pretty much about standards, the times of
> flash and IE are over.  Not everything is good, but much better than 5
> or 10 years ago.

HTML4 has been standardized in 1997, 18 years ago.  So unless we are
jumping straight to a standard passed just 4 months ago, we'll be
working with rather long established technology.

>> So our basic workflows starting from Texinfo input (and integrated
>> with the workflow of translators) are something that is not easily
>> replaced by something "more modern".
>
> I don't know the details of these translators etc. but I suppose a lot
> can be done just using CSS. At some point also this workflow will boil
> down to html, right?

Sure, but mainly as the target format of a convertor that we don't
ourselves maintain.

> And I am not talking about the contents, because they are already
> formatted in a good syntactical manner html-wise, but about the
> overall layout. And when I look at the page right now, there are divs
> and classes and everything needed for what I proposed. And once,
> again: I do not talk about the structure and workflow but the
> design/appearance.

Much of that can be influenced by CSS, and we have had several changes
in the last years (easily seen by comparing the documentation and web
pages for 2.19, 2.18, and older versions).

And LilyPond's web presence has looked significantly better than
basically any other Texinfo-generated HTML for decades anyway.

> And sorry, but probably < 1% of the users are viewing the website
> using emacs. So I hope this is not the design goal of the website.

"Accessibility" in the GNU project is often tied to "Emacspeak" and
similar.  Admittedly this is a strawman argument with regard to LilyPond
documentation since it would be pointless to be reading the
documentation in eww rather than in Info mode.  However, eww is sort of
representative for text browsers, like w3 or Lynx.

> If I find some time, I might do some more specific proposals on small
> rearrangements of the content of the main page.  For the layout I
> won't dare to suggest things.

When a proposal is made in the form of a patch to LilyPond, it becomes
obvious rather quickly what kind of changes are easy to do given the
current framework, and what kind of change will be hard to accommodate.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Thoughts about the LilyPond web site

[Joram]

Hi David,

> Which means that one cannot just click things together with some web
> design tool resulting in a Flash page inaccessible to blind readers and
> only rendering as intended on Internet Explorer.

That is a very bad style of communication on your end! I am *not*
talking about clicking, not about a flash page, not about non-standard
tools and not about the Internet Explorer, ok? These are just
insinuations. With this attitude you can indeed scare away all possible
contributors.

On the contrary, I am talking about using up-to-date web-standards,
html5 and css and producing an accessible website. Most modern
approaches care pretty much about standards, the times of flash and IE
are over. Not everything is good, but much better than 5 or 10 years
ago. And there is a lot of room for website improvements covering my
suggestions on this basis.

> So our basic workflows starting from Texinfo input (and integrated with
> the workflow of translators) are something that is not easily replaced
> by something "more modern".

I don't know the details of these translators etc. but I suppose a lot
can be done just using CSS. At some point also this workflow will boil
down to html, right? And I am not talking about the contents, because
they are already formatted in a good syntactical manner html-wise, but
about the overall layout. And when I look at the page right now, there
are divs and classes and everything needed for what I proposed. And
once, again: I do not talk about the structure and workflow but the
design/appearance.

And sorry, but probably < 1% of the users are viewing the website using
emacs. So I hope this is not the design goal of the website. The goal
should be to comply with standards, which makes it viewable on main
browsers like ff and chrome, and which makes it accessible. If emacs
follows web-standards that's of course good.

If I find some time, I might do some more specific proposals on small
rearrangements of the content of the main page. For the layout I won't
dare to suggest things.

Best,
Joram

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Re: Thoughts about the LilyPond web site

[Urs Liska]

Am 27.02.2015 11:27, schrieb David Kastrup:

But rearranging its structure and organization and texts is easily done.
Any ideas relating to the content rather than the graphical appearance
do not come with large hidden costs.


The review process has to be considered a significant hidden cost if you 
want to make changes that are more than cosmetic.


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Re: Thoughts about the LilyPond web site

[David Kastrup]

Urs Liska  writes:

> Am 27.02.2015 11:01, schrieb David Kastrup:
>> Which means that one cannot just click things together with some web
>> design tool resulting in a Flash page inaccessible to blind readers and
>> only rendering as intended on Internet Explorer.  Which is more or less
>> the standard for "pretty".
>
> I don't think that's completely fair. There are lots of layouts and
> frameworks out there that do respect standards and accessibility but
> look modern anyway.
>
> But of course you're right in pointing out more of the complexity of
> the task.

It's more the complexity and quality of the current solution.  "I can do
better than that" is much easier said than done once you realize that
the current state does a whole lot more than look tolerable.

But rearranging its structure and organization and texts is easily done.
Any ideas relating to the content rather than the graphical appearance
do not come with large hidden costs.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Thoughts about the LilyPond web site

[Joram]

Hi,

thinking about it once more, I think that discussing a general redesign
of the web site does not make sense unless there is someone willing and
capable to do so. I am not, therefore I think this discussion can be
stopped here before too many people think about it and we end up with no
results. The content changes of the main page (examples, …) could still
be considered if desired.

Just for reference and for the case that someone is able to face this
challenge, I copied my thoughts again in this thread (below) to have it
separate from the thread containing the real and good work on the web site.

Cheers,
Joram




In general, I think, there are so many beautiful, modern, elegant and
responsive layouts on the web, that it would be best to find such a
layout or create it from scratch instead of infinitesimal changes to the
current design. To present a high qualitiy tool like LilyPond something
very elegant would be good – with notes (photography) like
http://blog.steinberg.net/2014/03/development-diary-part-six/
and probably instruments on the title page to attract musicians more
than nerds. Just to show what I mean:
http://klavierhaus-labianca.de/index.php/werkstatt
http://eu.steinway.com
There is nothing wrong with programming-interested people and LilyPond
profited a lot from many skilled ones, I just think “beauty”, “music”,
“elegance”, “artistic”, “perfection”, “tradition” should be mentioned
more prominently on the title page than technical things like
“stable/unstable”, “release”, “manual”, “bugs”, “crashes”.

Some more notes on the content (which is off-topic here, I know):
There should me more interesting content on the main page. All the
release announcements with their nearly identical wording get boring
very soon. In addition the list of contributors appears twice (for 2.16
and 2.18). This could be better done in some release log page decoupled
from the front page.

What I usually look for on such pages is: features, screenshots,
download, license.

What I would suggest:
- images of high quality scores (mainly showing the beauty of
traditional style typesetting but also some exotic ones) or only 1 or 2,
linking to http://lilypond.org/examples.html
- an (incomplete) list of interesting and new features
- notes on the latest release (but only this one)
- Keep the Best Edition award and the LilyPond Blog

Or (after one example image), three columns with:
features, examples, download.

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Re: GWP / GOP / GOO (was: Proposal for "Getting Help" page for LilyPond web site)

[Valentin Villenave]

2008/12/1 Graham Percival <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> - have a bi-weekly newsletter (this will hopefully continue after
>  Aug)

The LilyReport *will* be back. (we can name it otherwise if you
prefer). I have one issue ready-to-release and pending, and I am still
willing (and able) to publish it on a weekly basis.
That being said,
- I'll happily welcome any contribution from anyone else.
- I am not touchy about being in charge of it or not.

> - re-examine popular tweaks and possible add them to ly/
>(we need to discuss this)

+1

> - *possibly* start training more people in how to fix bugs

+1

> - introduce radically shorter development cycles
>(we need to discuss this)

Having a bi-weekly devel release is great. I assume you're referring
to stable releases.

Cheers,
Valentin


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GWP / GOP / GOO (was: Proposal for "Getting Help" page for LilyPond web site)

[Graham Percival]

On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 10:58:01AM -0200, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:57 AM, Carl D. Sorensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the getting help section of the
> > page".  I haven't been able to find anything titled "getting help".
> 
> Well, such a section was proposed in this thread.  I??m requesting that
> this is not just a page but fits into a  logical bigger overall
> structure of the site.

That's the whole point of the Grand Website Project, or Grand
Organization Project, or Grand Organization O-something else.  I'd
use GOP except I've gotten in trouble in the past for three-letter
words which some people interpret in a political way.


This project, to be named later, will begin on Jan 1, 2009 and
probably end Aug 2009.  Current goals:
- revamp website
- re-examine LM 1 + AU vs. the website.  For example, we have two
  essays about computer music engraving.  One will die.
- finish NR 1-4 and start/finish AU.
- have a bi-weekly newsletter (this will hopefully continue after
  Aug)
- re-examine popular tweaks and possible add them to ly/
(we need to discuss this)
- *possibly* start training more people in how to fix bugs
- introduce radically shorter development cycles
(we need to discuss this)

My plans aren't as concrete as I would have liked to have them
when I announce something like this, but I figured that if I
didn't say anything you'd have a long discussion and not really
get anything done.

Cheers,
- Graham



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Re: Proposal for "Getting Help" page for LilyPond web site

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:57 AM, Carl D. Sorensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>>> What if we put a link under Quick Links on the main page, titled Getting
>>> Help, which pointed to a Getting Help page?
>>
>> How about adding some sort of story-line to the getting help-section
>> of the page?  This would add to the current 2 story lines, which are
>> the essay and the crash-course. How many resources do we have
>> nowadays?   It could be a set of pages which makes sense if read in
>> sequence
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the getting help section of the
> page".  I haven't been able to find anything titled "getting help".

Well, such a section was proposed in this thread.  I´m requesting that
this is not just a page but fits into a  logical bigger overall
structure of the site.

-- 
Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen
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Re: Proposal for "Getting Help" page for LilyPond web site

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 11/29/08 5:13 AM, "Han-Wen Nienhuys" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Carl D. Sorensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I'm not sure who is currently managing the development of the main LilyPond
>> web page, so I'm not sure who this should be addressed to.
>> 
>> I just went to the LilyPond web site with the idea in mind of being a
>> totally new user, perhaps even a Windows user who has never jumped into the
>> Linux/Open Source/GDP community before.  I was a bit surprised by what I
>> found (or didn't find).  There was nothing on the front page about getting
>> help.
> 
>> 
>> What if we put a link under Quick Links on the main page, titled Getting
>> Help, which pointed to a Getting Help page?
> 
> How about adding some sort of story-line to the getting help-section
> of the page?  This would add to the current 2 story lines, which are
> the essay and the crash-course. How many resources do we have
> nowadays?   It could be a set of pages which makes sense if read in
> sequence

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the getting help section of the
page".  I haven't been able to find anything titled "getting help".

There is the Introduction section, which has the essay, testimonials, the
brief tour, the crash course, the FAQ, and the download link.  But there's
nothing there with the title "getting help", and I think that title is
important.

Oops - I just found a User Help page (under Download).  The link (in the
navigation bar) is titled "User help"; the page title is "LilyPond - Usage",
and the Heading is "Using LilyPond".  This page has the Tutorial (which
points to the 2.10 documentation), a link to the documentation, a discussion
about the -user list, and a discussion about the announce list.  This has
much of the information I wanted to have on the Getting Help page, but it's
hard to find and has a mixed message from the link, the title, and the
heading.

I'm sure this could all be improved with the future GWP.  I think we ought
to have a band-aid while we wait, with a prominent link from the home page
called "Getting Help" or something like that.  I'd have a draft up if I
could get the darn inkscape to work from a shell on my Mac.

Thanks,

Carl



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Re: Proposal for "Getting Help" page for LilyPond web site

[Han-Wen Nienhuys]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Carl D. Sorensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm not sure who is currently managing the development of the main LilyPond
> web page, so I'm not sure who this should be addressed to.
>
> I just went to the LilyPond web site with the idea in mind of being a
> totally new user, perhaps even a Windows user who has never jumped into the
> Linux/Open Source/GDP community before.  I was a bit surprised by what I
> found (or didn't find).  There was nothing on the front page about getting
> help.

>
> What if we put a link under Quick Links on the main page, titled Getting
> Help, which pointed to a Getting Help page?

How about adding some sort of story-line to the getting help-section
of the page?  This would add to the current 2 story lines, which are
the essay and the crash-course. How many resources do we have
nowadays?   It could be a set of pages which makes sense if read in
sequence

-- 
Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen


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Re: Proposal for "Getting Help" page for LilyPond web site

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 07:58:39PM -0700, Carl D. Sorensen wrote:
> 
> On 11/27/08 7:24 PM, "Graham Percival" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Nobody.  Hence my proposal that we have a GWP, probably not before
> > Jan.
> 
> I agree.  The GWP should be a good thing.  Are you planning on changing your
> middle name to Wallace or William?

My middle name is Keith, so your suggestion fails for GDP as well.
:)  It was never named after me; I was just fond of "G**" after
hearing about the Grand Unified Theory in physics.  Hence the
Grand Unified Binaries, Grand Documentation Project, and
(possibly) Grand Website Project.

> > "The solution to having too many places to look for information is
> > to add another place to look for information" ?
> 
> For me the problem was not that there were too many places to look for
> information, but that
> 
> 1) There was nothing on the home page pointing to obtaining help or support;
> all of those links were buried at the second level or deeper.
> 
> 2) There was no single source to go to for getting help -- it was scattered
> through a couple of links.
> 
> > I'm of the opinion that, with a properly designed/overhauled web
> > page, this kind of thing wouldn't be necessary.

This is my answer to the above two points.  :)


> > Everything else is covered, and *should* be covered, in the docs.
> > Notably LM 1.2.
> > 
> 
> I disagree.  LM 1.2 does describe that there is a user list, and a devel
> list.  But it's written doc form, not web page form.
> 
> I think that some page on getting help *should* be part of GWP.  But you
> have a pretty good sense of doc needs, so I remain open to being convinced
> (but probably not until I see the GWP design, which doesn't yet exist).

Part of GWP would evaluate that kind of thing -- for example, we
have an online essay about typesetting and lilypond, and LM 1.1.
IMO we only need one of them.  Now, maybe LM 1.2 should be a web
page instead of part of the LM.
That's just an example, though -- there's no point discussing it
until GWP has started and people are working on it.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: Proposal for "Getting Help" page for LilyPond web site

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 11/27/08 7:24 PM, "Graham Percival" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 10:53:11AM -0700, Carl D. Sorensen wrote:
>> I'm not sure who is currently managing the development of the main LilyPond
>> web page,
> 
> Nobody.  Hence my proposal that we have a GWP, probably not before
> Jan.

I agree.  The GWP should be a good thing.  Are you planning on changing your
middle name to Wallace or William?

> 
>> I just went to the LilyPond web site with the idea in mind of being a
>> totally new user, perhaps even a Windows user who has never jumped into the
>> Linux/Open Source/GDP community before.
> 
> Yep, it sucks.  Hence my proposal that we have a GWP.
> 
>> The current paths are to go to Documentation / Support (which is reasonable,
>> but doesn't have anything about help in it directly), About / Contact (which
>> is also reasonable, but also doesn't have anything about help in it
>> directly).
> 
> Yeah, that's confusing and not helpful.  Hence my proposal that...
> 
>> What if we put a link under Quick Links on the main page, titled Getting
>> Help, which pointed to a Getting Help page?
> 
> "The solution to having too many places to look for information is
> to add another place to look for information" ?

For me the problem was not that there were too many places to look for
information, but that

1) There was nothing on the home page pointing to obtaining help or support;
all of those links were buried at the second level or deeper.

2) There was no single source to go to for getting help -- it was scattered
through a couple of links.

> 
> I'm of the opinion that, with a properly designed/overhauled web
> page, this kind of thing wouldn't be necessary.  That said, a
> cheap band-aid solution like this might be appropriate for a quick
> fix.

I agree.  The cost is really low.  I'd have it done already, but I'm having
trouble getting inkscape installed so it's accessible from the command line,
as opposed to an OS/X app.

> 
>> I think such a page would be helpful to new users as a single point of
>> contact.
> 
> Your proposal goes too far.  New users need to know two things:
> 1) lilypond has no GUI.  (the wiki link takes care of this)
> 2) read the 2.11 docs.  (this web page could do this)
> 
> Everything else is covered, and *should* be covered, in the docs.
> Notably LM 1.2.
> 

I disagree.  LM 1.2 does describe that there is a user list, and a devel
list.  But it's written doc form, not web page form.

I think that some page on getting help *should* be part of GWP.  But you
have a pretty good sense of doc needs, so I remain open to being convinced
(but probably not until I see the GWP design, which doesn't yet exist).
> 
> Once new users know those two points, there have been no other
> HONEST questions or comments from confused users.  We've had three
> people in the past month continue to blather useless fluff after
> being told to read the 2.11 LM, but that's beside the point.
> 

You've got a point there.  The only problem we've had has been people who
refuse to read the LM.  But I still think it would help to have a page on
getting help that is visible from the home page.

Thanks,

Carl



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Re: Proposal for "Getting Help" page for LilyPond web site

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 10:53:11AM -0700, Carl D. Sorensen wrote:
> I'm not sure who is currently managing the development of the main LilyPond
> web page,

Nobody.  Hence my proposal that we have a GWP, probably not before
Jan.

> I just went to the LilyPond web site with the idea in mind of being a
> totally new user, perhaps even a Windows user who has never jumped into the
> Linux/Open Source/GDP community before.

Yep, it sucks.  Hence my proposal that we have a GWP.

> The current paths are to go to Documentation / Support (which is reasonable,
> but doesn't have anything about help in it directly), About / Contact (which
> is also reasonable, but also doesn't have anything about help in it
> directly).

Yeah, that's confusing and not helpful.  Hence my proposal that...

> What if we put a link under Quick Links on the main page, titled Getting
> Help, which pointed to a Getting Help page?

"The solution to having too many places to look for information is
to add another place to look for information" ?

I'm of the opinion that, with a properly designed/overhauled web
page, this kind of thing wouldn't be necessary.  That said, a
cheap band-aid solution like this might be appropriate for a quick
fix.

> I think such a page would be helpful to new users as a single point of
> contact.

Your proposal goes too far.  New users need to know two things:
1) lilypond has no GUI.  (the wiki link takes care of this)
2) read the 2.11 docs.  (this web page could do this)

Everything else is covered, and *should* be covered, in the docs.
Notably LM 1.2.


Once new users know those two points, there have been no other
HONEST questions or comments from confused users.  We've had three
people in the past month continue to blather useless fluff after
being told to read the 2.11 LM, but that's beside the point.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: Proposal for "Getting Help" page for LilyPond web site

[Till Rettig]

Carl D. Sorensen schrieb:

Ok, so how do I do so?  Where does the website code reside?
  

It's maybe easiest to get it from git:

http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=lilypond.git;a=summary

go down the page an change to the web branch (under "heads"). Just click 
on the small "tree" link right of the bold "web" and you will get to the 
repository. You can also check it out with git...
You will notice that the files here are "barebone", i.e. don't have the 
header- and footer fields which get added only on compilation. So what I 
meant was you could just write this actual content code, maybe with a 
table or something --
but actually already the plain text with links would be something that 
could be easily turned into a web page.


Till

Carl


On 11/27/08 12:46 PM, "Till Rettig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  

Carl D. Sorensen schrieb:


The Getting Help page would have:

1) A statement saying that "LilyPond does not have a graphical interface",
and an embedded link to the crash course.

2) A statement saying that "The first thing you should do is read the
Learning Manual", with an embedded link to the tutorial part of the Learning
Manual.

3) A statement saying "Review the FAQ's and look at the wiki", with embedded
links to both the FAQ and the wiki.

4) A statement saying "There's a user mailing list available.  Start by
searching the archives (with an embedded link).  If you can't find an answer
in the archives, post your question to the list.  Before you post, please
review the suggestions for asking good questions." with embedded links to
both the user list email and to


5) A statement saying "If you think you've found a bug, you'll want to
report in on the bug-lilypond mailing list." and a link to the current bug
reporting page .

I think such a page would be helpful to new users as a single point of
contact.

I'd be happy to help with this.
 
  

Great stuff, this is maybe going further than the GDP project -- and a
general overhauling of the web pages is planed after GDP -- but I would
just say: go ahead, put something up with plain html code (I don't
remember which version is in use) and Jan or John might just implement
it into the existing page interface.

Greetings
Till


Thanks,

Carl



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Re: Proposal for "Getting Help" page for LilyPond web site

[Carl D. Sorensen]

Ok, so how do I do so?  Where does the website code reside?

Carl


On 11/27/08 12:46 PM, "Till Rettig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Carl D. Sorensen schrieb:
>> The Getting Help page would have:
>> 
>> 1) A statement saying that "LilyPond does not have a graphical interface",
>> and an embedded link to the crash course.
>> 
>> 2) A statement saying that "The first thing you should do is read the
>> Learning Manual", with an embedded link to the tutorial part of the Learning
>> Manual.
>> 
>> 3) A statement saying "Review the FAQ's and look at the wiki", with embedded
>> links to both the FAQ and the wiki.
>> 
>> 4) A statement saying "There's a user mailing list available.  Start by
>> searching the archives (with an embedded link).  If you can't find an answer
>> in the archives, post your question to the list.  Before you post, please
>> review the suggestions for asking good questions." with embedded links to
>> both the user list email and to
>> 
>> 
>> 5) A statement saying "If you think you've found a bug, you'll want to
>> report in on the bug-lilypond mailing list." and a link to the current bug
>> reporting page .
>> 
>> I think such a page would be helpful to new users as a single point of
>> contact.
>> 
>> I'd be happy to help with this.
>>  
> Great stuff, this is maybe going further than the GDP project -- and a
> general overhauling of the web pages is planed after GDP -- but I would
> just say: go ahead, put something up with plain html code (I don't
> remember which version is in use) and Jan or John might just implement
> it into the existing page interface.
> 
> Greetings
> Till
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Carl
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>>  
> 



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Re: Proposal for "Getting Help" page for LilyPond web site

[Till Rettig]

Carl D. Sorensen schrieb:

The Getting Help page would have:

1) A statement saying that "LilyPond does not have a graphical interface",
and an embedded link to the crash course.

2) A statement saying that "The first thing you should do is read the
Learning Manual", with an embedded link to the tutorial part of the Learning
Manual.

3) A statement saying "Review the FAQ's and look at the wiki", with embedded
links to both the FAQ and the wiki.

4) A statement saying "There's a user mailing list available.  Start by
searching the archives (with an embedded link).  If you can't find an answer
in the archives, post your question to the list.  Before you post, please
review the suggestions for asking good questions." with embedded links to
both the user list email and to


5) A statement saying "If you think you've found a bug, you'll want to
report in on the bug-lilypond mailing list." and a link to the current bug
reporting page .

I think such a page would be helpful to new users as a single point of
contact.

I'd be happy to help with this.
  
Great stuff, this is maybe going further than the GDP project -- and a 
general overhauling of the web pages is planed after GDP -- but I would 
just say: go ahead, put something up with plain html code (I don't 
remember which version is in use) and Jan or John might just implement 
it into the existing page interface.


Greetings
Till

Thanks,

Carl



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Proposal for "Getting Help" page for LilyPond web site

[Carl D. Sorensen]

I'm not sure who is currently managing the development of the main LilyPond
web page, so I'm not sure who this should be addressed to.

I just went to the LilyPond web site with the idea in mind of being a
totally new user, perhaps even a Windows user who has never jumped into the
Linux/Open Source/GDP community before.  I was a bit surprised by what I
found (or didn't find).  There was nothing on the front page about getting
help.  

The current paths are to go to Documentation / Support (which is reasonable,
but doesn't have anything about help in it directly), About / Contact (which
is also reasonable, but also doesn't have anything about help in it
directly).

What if we put a link under Quick Links on the main page, titled Getting
Help, which pointed to a Getting Help page?

The Getting Help page would have:

1) A statement saying that "LilyPond does not have a graphical interface",
and an embedded link to the crash course.

2) A statement saying that "The first thing you should do is read the
Learning Manual", with an embedded link to the tutorial part of the Learning
Manual.

3) A statement saying "Review the FAQ's and look at the wiki", with embedded
links to both the FAQ and the wiki.

4) A statement saying "There's a user mailing list available.  Start by
searching the archives (with an embedded link).  If you can't find an answer
in the archives, post your question to the list.  Before you post, please
review the suggestions for asking good questions." with embedded links to
both the user list email and to
<http://www.gerv.net/hacking/how-to-ask-good-questions/>

5) A statement saying "If you think you've found a bug, you'll want to
report in on the bug-lilypond mailing list." and a link to the current bug
reporting page <http://lilypond.org/web/devel/participating/bugs>.

I think such a page would be helpful to new users as a single point of
contact.

I'd be happy to help with this.

Thanks,

Carl



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Re: lilypond web site

[Graham Percival]

Joe Neeman wrote:
The only errors seem to be that ampersands in the URLs are written as '&' 
instead of as '&'. To fix it, you'd need to check out the web/master 
branch and fix the file site/news.ihtml. I'd do it, but my computer isn't set 
up for lilyponding just yet.


OK, thanks.  Fixed now.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: lilypond web site

[Joe Neeman]

On Saturday 03 March 2007 10:26, Graham Percival wrote:
> Ian Stirling wrote:
> >   I clicked on the W3C icon at the bottom of the home page
> > and was shown ten errors by the Markup Validation Service.
>
> Thanks for the warning.
>
> The errors seem to be in the "News" items, but I don't know enough about
> how they're generated.  Anybody want to take a look at this?  It should
> be fairly standard HTML, and we welcome any patches.

The only errors seem to be that ampersands in the URLs are written as '&' 
instead of as '&'. To fix it, you'd need to check out the web/master 
branch and fix the file site/news.ihtml. I'd do it, but my computer isn't set 
up for lilyponding just yet.


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Re: lilypond web site

[Graham Percival]

Francisco Vila wrote:

El vie, 02 de mar de 2007, a las 01:29:42 -0500, Ian Stirling dijo:

  I clicked on the W3C icon at the bottom of the home page
and was shown ten errors by the Markup Validation Service.


Besides that, IMO the texinfo generated pages have much a '80s look,
just change the inline style information to contain something like


The texinfo pages are generated automagically, so I'm not going to 
change them manually.  These changes can probably be added to the 
texinfo sources; could you look up how to do it and let me know?


(that said, I dislike specifying colors on websites, so I'd rather not 
have the "color" in there)


Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: lilypond web site

[Graham Percival]

Ian Stirling wrote:

  I clicked on the W3C icon at the bottom of the home page
and was shown ten errors by the Markup Validation Service.


Thanks for the warning.

The errors seem to be in the "News" items, but I don't know enough about 
how they're generated.  Anybody want to take a look at this?  It should 
be fairly standard HTML, and we welcome any patches.


Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: lilypond web site

[Francisco Vila]

El vie, 02 de mar de 2007, a las 01:29:42 -0500, Ian Stirling dijo:
>   I clicked on the W3C icon at the bottom of the home page
> and was shown ten errors by the Markup Validation Service.

Besides that, IMO the texinfo generated pages have much a '80s look,
just change the inline style information to contain something like



and see what happens.

-- 
Francisco Vila Doncel. Badajoz (Spain)
http://www.paconet.org


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lilypond web site

[Ian Stirling]

  I clicked on the W3C icon at the bottom of the home page
and was shown ten errors by the Markup Validation Service.

Ian
--


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