Re: Just chords and lyrics.

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 08:15:39PM -0700, Carl D. Sorensen wrote:
> 
> On 11/27/08 8:06 PM, "Jonathan Kulp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Graham Percival wrote:
> >> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 08:22:51PM -0600, Jonathan Kulp wrote:
> >>> makeTransparent = {
> >>> \override NoteHead #'transparent = ##t
> >>> \override Stem #'transparent = ##t
> >>> \override TupletBracket #'bracket-visibility = ##f
> >> 
> >> This could be added to ly/property-init.ly.  Oh, and indentation.
> > 
> > Are you saying it could be a new command that's part of Lilypond, or
> > that a user should add it to his own property-init.ly file?

No user should ever edit *-init.ly files.  Yes, I'm saying that it
should be added to lilypond.

> >  I don't
> > know if it would be a good idea to add it to the program's code, since
> > there are so many things that might need to be made transparent in a
> > given melody, some are bound to be left out and somebody would call it a
> > bug.

Then we fix the bug by adding a single line to property-init.ly.
Really, if all bug fixes are that easy, I could clear the 300-bug
backlog tonight.  :)

> >  Incidentally, this example should probably be a
> > snippet, since it has overrides, right?

That's why I'm suggesting that you add it to property-init.ly --
then it *won't* be a snippet, since it won't (explicitly) be using
overrides.

> >> And possibly a different name; makeTransparent sounds close to
> >> hideNotes.
> >> 
> > I'll try to come up with something.  My first one was \makeItVanish but
> > that seems too flippant for the docs :)
> 
> How about hideVoiceNotation?

Maybe.  Or what about hideNotation ?

Let me put it this way: should \hideNotes *only* hide the noteheads
and steams, or should \hideNotes hide everything?  My first
instinct as that it should hide everything, but maybe somebody can
think of a reason why not.  -- I mean, a reason that isn't highly
tweaked out, like making Schenkerian graphs with lilypond.  People
doing that kind of stuff should be able to figure out the
\overrides on their own.

If we *can't* think of a reason why \hideNodes should leave the
slurs and tuplet brackets visible, then I would rather that you
dump your overrides into the existing \hideNotes macro.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: dissonant chords

[Martin Tarenskeen]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 03:23:56PM +0100, Mats Bengtsson wrote:
> See http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=505 for a solution.
>
>   /Mats
>

45 degrees stem rotation ... Lilypond keeps amaizing me !
Thank you.

Martin



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Re: Spacing before and after barlines

[Basil Crow]

On Nov 27, 2008, at 11:40 PM, Kieren MacMillan wrote:


Have you tried

\override BarLine #'X-extent = #'(0 . 0)

[or even negative numbers]?


Hi Kieren,

Thank you for the suggestion. Unfortunately, it doesn't resolve my  
issue. I also tried zeroing "kern" to no effect. Also, in case it  
wasn't obvious from my original email, I am working in an environment  
with Score.timing set to false.


Thank you,
Basil


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Re: Spacing before and after barlines

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Basil,


Could someone please help me find the right property?


Have you tried

\override BarLine #'X-extent = #'(0 . 0)

[or even negative numbers]?

HTH!
Kieren.


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Spacing before and after barlines

[Basil Crow]

Dear list,

I am using invisible barlines in the middle of a line in a score. I  
would like to completely eliminate any effect that these invisible  
barlines have on note spacing. I know I could just remove them, but  
there is no way to determine which ones would fall in the middle of  
the line and which would fall at the end of a line without actually  
running LilyPond -- an undesirable proposition. Therefore, I want to  
keep them in place in the middle of the line but just eliminate the  
effect they have on note spacing.


I have tried the following:

 \override BarLine #'space-alist #'time-signature = #'(extra-space .  
0.0)

 \override BarLine #'space-alist #'custos = #'(minimum-space . 0.0)
 \override BarLine #'space-alist #'clef = #'(minimum-space . 0.0)
 \override BarLine #'space-alist #'key-signature = #'(extra-space .  
0.0)
 \override BarLine #'space-alist #'key-cancellation = #'(extra- 
space . 0.0)

 \override BarLine #'space-alist #'first-note = #'(fixed-space . 0.0)
 \override BarLine #'space-alist #'next-note = #'(semi-fixed-space .  
0.0)

 \override BarLine #'space-alist #'right-edge = #'(extra-space . 0.0)
 \override BarLine #'thin-kern = #0.0
 \override BarLine #'gap = #0.0

But there are still "rivers of whitespace" where the invisible  
barlines appear in the middle of each line. Could someone please help  
me find the right property?


Thank you,
Basil


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Re: Just chords and lyrics.

[Jonathan Kulp]

Carl D. Sorensen wrote:


I'll try to come up with something.  My first one was \makeItVanish but
that seems too flippant for the docs :)


How about hideVoiceNotation?



I like that.



Don't forget to include slurs.
Good catch. There are none in this example but it would be remiss not to 
include slurs in the list.



text = \lyricmode {
   Three words, then
   two  words. \melisma
   Three \melismaEnd words, then
   Two words.
}



Why do you use \melisma and \melismaEnd in the lyrics, rather than in the
notes?


Man, I have no idea.  That was the first time I'd ever used those 
commands and I wondered why they had no effect ;-).  I saw that you used 
them in this thread and didn't pay close enough attention to where you 
put them.  Duh...ok I found the message where you used them and now I 
have 'em in the right place. That helps the spacing a tiny bit in the 
devnull voice but it still looks pretty bad.


Thanks Carl,

Jon
--
Jonathan Kulp
http://www.jonathankulp.com


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Re: Just chords and lyrics.

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 11/27/08 8:06 PM, "Jonathan Kulp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Graham Percival wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 08:22:51PM -0600, Jonathan Kulp wrote:
>>> makeTransparent = {
>>> \override NoteHead #'transparent = ##t
>>> \override Stem #'transparent = ##t
>>> \override TupletBracket #'bracket-visibility = ##f
>> 
>> This could be added to ly/property-init.ly.  Oh, and indentation.
> 
> Are you saying it could be a new command that's part of Lilypond, or
> that a user should add it to his own property-init.ly file?  I don't
> know if it would be a good idea to add it to the program's code, since
> there are so many things that might need to be made transparent in a
> given melody, some are bound to be left out and somebody would call it a
> bug.  This melody has ties, tuplets, dotted notes, and rests, but one
> could also have articulations, slurs, glissandos and dynamics, etc.  I
> had to go to the Lilypond list of objects to figure out how to make all
> these transparent, and I was hoping that this example would also give
> someone reading the docs the hint that there are a lot of things to make
> transparent, and that not everything is made transparent with the same
> type of command--some are #'transparent = ##t while others are #'stencil
> = ##f, and the Tuplet brackets have still another override format.
> Hopefully with that many examples, users can figure out how to make
> everything transparent.  Incidentally, this example should probably be a
> snippet, since it has overrides, right?  Should all of these be
> snippets?  The ones using \new Devnull don't have overrides so they
> could be part of the main text, I suppose.
> 
> Indentation: I was working with strk's original code when making this
> but will adjust the indentation to conform to doc policies.
> 
>> And possibly a different name; makeTransparent sounds close to
>> hideNotes.
>> 
> I'll try to come up with something.  My first one was \makeItVanish but
> that seems too flippant for the docs :)

How about hideVoiceNotation?

> 
>> ... on second thought, why doesn't hideNotes contain all the above
>> overrides?  Maybe it should...
> 
> I tried using \hideNotes just now and it hides the notes, ledger lines,
> and dots, but not the tuplet objects, ties, and rests.

Don't forget to include slurs.
> 
> text = \lyricmode {
>Three words, then
>two  words. \melisma
>Three \melismaEnd words, then
>Two words.
> }
> 

Why do you use \melisma and \melismaEnd in the lyrics, rather than in the
notes?

Carl



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Re: Just chords and lyrics.

[Jonathan Kulp]

Graham Percival wrote:

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 08:22:51PM -0600, Jonathan Kulp wrote:

makeTransparent = {
\override NoteHead #'transparent = ##t
\override Stem #'transparent = ##t
\override TupletBracket #'bracket-visibility = ##f


This could be added to ly/property-init.ly.  Oh, and indentation.


Are you saying it could be a new command that's part of Lilypond, or 
that a user should add it to his own property-init.ly file?  I don't 
know if it would be a good idea to add it to the program's code, since 
there are so many things that might need to be made transparent in a 
given melody, some are bound to be left out and somebody would call it a 
bug.  This melody has ties, tuplets, dotted notes, and rests, but one 
could also have articulations, slurs, glissandos and dynamics, etc.  I 
had to go to the Lilypond list of objects to figure out how to make all 
these transparent, and I was hoping that this example would also give 
someone reading the docs the hint that there are a lot of things to make 
transparent, and that not everything is made transparent with the same 
type of command--some are #'transparent = ##t while others are #'stencil 
= ##f, and the Tuplet brackets have still another override format. 
Hopefully with that many examples, users can figure out how to make 
everything transparent.  Incidentally, this example should probably be a 
snippet, since it has overrides, right?  Should all of these be 
snippets?  The ones using \new Devnull don't have overrides so they 
could be part of the main text, I suppose.


Indentation: I was working with strk's original code when making this 
but will adjust the indentation to conform to doc policies.



And possibly a different name; makeTransparent sounds close to
hideNotes.

I'll try to come up with something.  My first one was \makeItVanish but 
that seems too flippant for the docs :)



... on second thought, why doesn't hideNotes contain all the above
overrides?  Maybe it should...


I tried using \hideNotes just now and it hides the notes, ledger lines, 
and dots, but not the tuplet objects, ties, and rests.



For the minimal example in the docs, you would omit the \midi, of
course.


Right.  Revised code below.  Thanks for looking through this, Graham.

Jon

%

\version "2.11.64"

\paper {
  indent = 0.0
}

makeInvisible = {
\override NoteHead #'transparent = ##t
\override Stem #'transparent = ##t
\override TupletBracket #'bracket-visibility = ##f
\override TupletNumber #'stencil = ##f
\override Accidental #'transparent = ##t
\override Tie #'transparent = ##t
\override Dots #'transparent = ##t
\override Staff.LedgerLineSpanner #'transparent = ##t
\override Beam #'transparent = ##t
\override Rest #'transparent = ##t
}

text = \lyricmode {
  Three words, then
  two  words. \melisma
  Three \melismaEnd words, then
  Two words.
}

%- Melody -- }{

melody = \relative c'' {
  r4 e e4. e8 |
  a4. d,8~ d2 |
  r2 \times 2/3 { d4 b4 gis4 } |
  b,4. e8 ~ e2 |
}

nullMelody = \relative c'' {
  e4 e e2 | e2 e | \times 2/3 {d2 d d } | e4 e ~ e2 |
}

%- Chords -- }{

harmonies = \chordmode {
  a1:m | d:m | e:7 | a:m |
}


% The original melody, chords, and lyrics

\score {
  <<
\new ChordNames { \harmonies }
\new Staff {
  \new Voice = "vocal" { \melody }
}
\new Lyrics \lyricsto "vocal" \text
  >>
  \layout {}
}

% The chord symbols, a blank staff, and lyrics

\score {
  <<
\new ChordNames { \harmonies }
\new Staff {
  \new Voice = "vocal" { \makeInvisible \melody } 
}
\new Lyrics \lyricsto "vocal" \text
  >>
  \layout {}
}

% just chord symbols and lyrics with original melody
% spacing is all jacked up.

\score {
  <<
\new ChordNames { \harmonies }
\new Devnull = "vocal" { \melody }
\new Lyrics \lyricsto "vocal" \text
  >>
  \layout {}
}

% just chord symbols and lyrics
% This one created with a separate melody defined for the
% devnull context to improve spacing.

\score {
  <<
\new ChordNames { \harmonies }
\new Devnull = "vocal" { \nullMelody }
\new Lyrics \lyricsto "vocal" \text
  >>
  \layout {}
}

%- END -- }


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Re: Just chords and lyrics.

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 08:22:51PM -0600, Jonathan Kulp wrote:
> makeTransparent = {
> \override NoteHead #'transparent = ##t
> \override Stem #'transparent = ##t
> \override TupletBracket #'bracket-visibility = ##f

This could be added to ly/property-init.ly.  Oh, and indentation.
And possibly a different name; makeTransparent sounds close to
hideNotes.

... on second thought, why doesn't hideNotes contain all the above
overrides?  Maybe it should...

>   \midi {
>   \context {
>   \Score
>   tempoWholesPerMinute = #(ly:make-moment 270 8)
>   }
>   }

For the minimal example in the docs, you would omit the \midi, of
course.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: Just chords and lyrics.

[Jonathan Kulp]

Carl D. Sorensen wrote:

For me the main issue here is that if I *only* want chords and lyrics, I
want the lyrics to be spaced according to proper typography, and I want the
chords to just follow along with the lyrics, instead of having both the
chords and the lyrics spaced according to the duration of the non-visible
music.

I can't see how LilyPond can accomplish this in it's current incarnation.
But what we're doing is the best that can be done, AFAICS.

Thanks,

Carl


Agreed. I'm working on the minimal examples right now for the docs, and 
I'm having trouble making the one with just the lyrics and chordnames 
look decent.  I don't see any way to do it except to create a different 
melody for the devnull context than what's in the regular voices, so 
that you can assign lyrics to notes that are more evenly spaced, without 
rests between them.


But if you have to do this to make it look good, then there's no benefit 
that I can see to using Lilypond for it.  The only sensible argument 
*for* using Lilypond to do this was that you could use existing lilypond 
code to create a separate part with just chordnames and lyrics.  Unless 
your original melody is extremely simple with no rests, then the result 
is likely to be poor.


Here's the code for my examples so far.  I have an original melody 
(everything visible) and its derivatives.  The last example looks 
halfway decent because I created a different melody to go with it.  As 
long as I have to do this extra work to make it look right, I'd rather 
just use guitarTeX or a word processor and make it look even better. 
Any thoughts?


Jon

%%

\version "2.11.64"

%- Lyrics -- {

\paper {
  indent = 0.0
}

makeTransparent = {
\override NoteHead #'transparent = ##t
\override Stem #'transparent = ##t
\override TupletBracket #'bracket-visibility = ##f
\override TupletNumber #'stencil = ##f
\override Accidental #'transparent = ##t
\override Tie #'transparent = ##t
\override Dots #'transparent = ##t
\override Staff.LedgerLineSpanner #'transparent = ##t
\override Beam #'transparent = ##t
\override Rest #'transparent = ##t
}

text = \lyricmode {
Three words, then
two  words. \melisma
Three \melismaEnd words, then
Two words.
}

%- Melody -- }{

melody = \relative c'' {
r4 e e4. e8 |
a4. d,8~ d2 |
r2 \times 2/3 { d4 b4 gis4 } |
b,4. e8 ~ e2 |
}

nullMelody = \relative c'' {
  e4 e e2 | e2 e | \times 2/3 {d2 d d } | e4 e ~ e2 |
}

%- Chords -- }{

harmonies = \chordmode {
a1:m | d:m | e:7 | a:m |
}


% The original melody, chords, and lyrics

\score {
<<
\new ChordNames { \harmonies }
\new Staff {
\new Voice = "vocal" { \melody }  
}
\new Lyrics \lyricsto "vocal" \text
>>
\midi {
\context {
\Score
tempoWholesPerMinute = #(ly:make-moment 270 8)
}
}
\layout {}
}


% The chord symbols, a blank staff, and lyrics

\score {
<<
\new ChordNames { \harmonies }
\new Staff {
\new Voice = "vocal" { \makeTransparent \melody }   
  
}
\new Lyrics \lyricsto "vocal" \text
>>
\midi {
\context {
\Score
tempoWholesPerMinute = #(ly:make-moment 270 8)
}
}
\layout {}
}

% just chord symbols and lyrics with original melody
% spacing is all jacked up.

\score {
<<
\new ChordNames { \harmonies }
\new Devnull = "vocal" { \melody }
\new Lyrics \lyricsto "vocal" \text
>>
\midi {
\context {
\Score
tempoWholesPerMinute = #(ly:make-moment 270 8)
}
}
\layout {}
}

% just chord symbols and lyrics
% This one created with a separate melody defined for the
% devnull context to improve spacing.

\score {
<<
\new ChordNames { \harmonies }
\new Devnull = "vocal" { \nullMelody }
\new Lyrics \lyricsto "vocal" \text
>>
\midi {
\context {
\Score
tempoWholesPerMinute = #(ly:make-moment 270 8)
}
}
\layout {}
}

%- END -- }
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Re: Just chords and lyrics.

[Carl D. Sorensen]

For me the main issue here is that if I *only* want chords and lyrics, I
want the lyrics to be spaced according to proper typography, and I want the
chords to just follow along with the lyrics, instead of having both the
chords and the lyrics spaced according to the duration of the non-visible
music.

I can't see how LilyPond can accomplish this in it's current incarnation.
But what we're doing is the best that can be done, AFAICS.

Thanks,

Carl



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Re: Just chords and lyrics.

[Brett Duncan]

Carl D. Sorensen wrote:


I got exactly the same output with the Devnull approach as with the
durations added to the lyrics.




I can't see any difference at all in the output of the two approaches.

Are you doing something different?  If so, I'd really like to see it.

Thanks,

Carl


The difference turned out to be that I had used line breaks, and the 
output wasn't crammed all to one side. It turns out that this also works 
with the devnull approach, and the output is the same.


Brett




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Re: nested staffgroups broken in 2.11.64

[Neil Puttock]

Hi Simon,

2008/11/27 Simon Bailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> on my box (mac os x, leopard using 2.11.64 darwin-ppc) i get the attached
> image "weird-nested-staffgroup.png". what gives?

The documentation at kainhofer.com reflects the latest build from the
git repository; the new syntax won't be available until the next
development release (which is most likely imminent).

Regards,
Neil


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Re: dissonant chords

[Valentin Villenave]

2008/11/27 Mats Bengtsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> See http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=505 for a solution.

It has also been mentioned in the tracker:
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=546#c6

Cheers,
Valentin


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Re: Multiple right-aligned lines in composer field

[Mats Bengtsson]

In version 2.10, it should work to do something like
\markup\column{
 \right-align { First line }
 \right-align { Second line }
}

   /Mats

Quoting Marius Andersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


I am using LilyPond 2.10.33 to arrange a few Radiohead tunes, so in
the composer field I want to write the following long text which
spans two lines:

   Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,
  Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood

The composer field is right-aligned, and so I want both of these two
lines to be right-aligned, too. However, if using \column, the second
line gets left-aligned with reference to the first:

   composer = \markup \column {
 "Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,"
 "Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood" }
   }

yielding

   Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,
   Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood

And using center-aligned doesn't cut it, either:

   composer = \markup \center-align {
 "Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,"
 "Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood" }
   }

yielding

   Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,
Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood

I notice in the Notation Reference for LilyPond 2.11 that a new
command, \right-column, is available, which would probably accomplish
what I want. However, I'm stuck with 2.10. How do I get the alignment
I want?


 _
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notisblokk. http://no.mail.yahoo.com


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Re: Multiple right-aligned lines in composer field

[james]

If you insist on using 2.10, then you need to use \right-align in  
addition to \column
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.10/Documentation/user/lilypond/Overview-of- 
text-markup-commands#Overview-of-text-markup-commands

Am 27.11.2008 um 19:49 schrieb Marius Andersen:

I am using LilyPond 2.10.33 to arrange a few Radiohead tunes, so in  
the composer field I want to write the following long text which  
spans two lines:


Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,
   Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood

The composer field is right-aligned, and so I want both of these  
two lines to be right-aligned, too. However, if using \column, the  
second line gets left-aligned with reference to the first:


composer = \markup \column {
  "Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,"
  "Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood" }
}

yielding

Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,
Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood

And using center-aligned doesn't cut it, either:

composer = \markup \center-align {
  "Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,"
  "Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood" }
}

yielding

Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,
 Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood

I notice in the Notation Reference for LilyPond 2.11 that a new  
command, \right-column, is available, which would probably  
accomplish what I want. However, I'm stuck with 2.10. How do I get  
the alignment I want?



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notisblokk. http://no.mail.yahoo.com


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Re: problems with learning lilypond

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 11/27/08 2:13 AM, "John Sellers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I hear your pain.  I'll do what I can, but it may not be much.  I'm currently
> taking violin lessons from Jeremy Cohen (Grammy nominated this year), and
> Julian Smedley (Berkeley Hot Club and others), and Guitar from Jimmy Luttrell
> (Entered the Western Swing Hall of Fame this year.)

John, I'm going to try say this gently, so as not to cause hard feelings.
If I do things wrong, please consider that I'm not trying to be offensive.

I'm always happy to hear a bit about the musical lives of people using
LilyPond, but your first paragraph sounds a bit like name dropping with the
intent of establishing you as an expert, perhaps superior to the rest of us
peons.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and believe that you didn't
intend that, so just consider this a bit of feedback about a perhaps
unintended effect of your writing style.

> 
> So, needless to say, I am working very hard and am very busy.

There's a potential implication that none of the rest of us are working very
hard or are very busy.  Again, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  If
we can keep from getting sidetracked by this type of issue, it'll be much
more helpful for moving LilyPond forward.

> 
> But I do have some ideas, and maybe we could have an on going dialog at such a
> pace that would not be too much of a burden to either you or me.

I'm fine to have an ongoing dialog.  And we'd love to have suggestions about
improving LilyPond.  The more specific, the better.

> 
> My first thought out of the box?  Would be to start working on a low-overhead
> system for capturing and redirecting stuck and frustrated users at the point
> they get stuck or frustrated.  Feedback systems are often too high overhead to
> your side or the user side to be really effective.  Most attempts to create
> such a system are also not so easy to do right because it is really hard to
> get both sides of the picture without too much effort, and if the effort isn't
> spent, then you end up with something less than successful.
> 
> But for starters a carefully constructed "first contact" in-context link might
> be a first step on this path.  You want to get the feed back without pigeon
> holing the user and at the same time, not overburdening one's organization
> with umpteen Jillion "feedbacks".  One way might be that the feed back box is
> fronted with a carefully constructed explanation about your resource
> limitations, asking the user to go the extra mile to boil down and re-boil
> down their feedback to make it clear and precise about their problem.  One way
> to do this would be to use something like the Google Idea Contest template,
> but boiling it down to the specific purpose of getting unsticking/frustration
> fixing feeback, carefully structuring and limiting the form to a certain size
> while explaining to the user exactly why they need to be clear and precise.
> Googles form is wonderful  guide to structuring ideas in a constructive
> form...this same concept could be adapted to your purposes.  What Google's
> feedback form lacked was immediate feedback on "size limitation" as the person
> typed...in other words it wasn't until the person filled out the whole form
> and discovered their text was too wordy. (just like I am now...lazy me...see
> you don't want this...you should limit my comments to a clear title, a short
> explanation of my idea,  a larger  description...etcsee the Google form if
> you can find it.  Google's form would have been perfect if they had had an
> automatic character counter on each field to tell the user when the limit was
> reachedand perhaps explained even more (in context) why clarity was
> needed.

I like the fact that you got to a specific idea of using the Google Idea
Contest template.  Unfortunately, the Google Idea Contest template appears
to have been taken down with the end of the submission period, so I can't
use it to help us.

Until we have somebody whose itch is to have a web-based, form-driven
feedback system, we're going to just have to live with email based systems.
I have proposed a Getting Help webpage as part of the LilyPond website (it's
on the -devel list, but hasn't yet posted to the archives.  When it does
post, you can find it at
).
The page would have a link to a good resource on forming a clear question to
ask from mailing lists.
> 
> If you were to do this in a way that can be clearly understood, I think you
> will be surprised how much work people are willing to put into making their
> explanation of their problem clear for you.

No, I'm not surprised.  Most of the requests on -user are clear and concise.
The primary exception to this rule is the requests from brand-new users, who
need some help getting started.  That's why Trevor wrote the new Learning
Manual.

> 
> Taking this feedback form, if it is structured right, would enable the
> lily

Multiple right-aligned lines in composer field

[Marius Andersen]

I am using LilyPond 2.10.33 to arrange a few Radiohead tunes, so in the 
composer field I want to write the following long text which spans two lines:

Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,
   Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood

The composer field is right-aligned, and so I want both of these two lines to 
be right-aligned, too. However, if using \column, the second line gets 
left-aligned with reference to the first:

composer = \markup \column {
  "Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,"
  "Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood" }
}

yielding

Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,
Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood

And using center-aligned doesn't cut it, either:

composer = \markup \center-align {
  "Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,"
  "Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood" }
}

yielding

Words and Music by Thomas Yorke, Jonathan Greenwood,
 Edward O'Brien, Philip Selway and Colin Greenwood

I notice in the Notation Reference for LilyPond 2.11 that a new command, 
\right-column, is available, which would probably accomplish what I want. 
However, I'm stuck with 2.10. How do I get the alignment I want?


  _
Alt i ett. Få Yahoo! Mail med adressekartotek, kalender og
notisblokk. http://no.mail.yahoo.com


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Re: dissonant chords

[Jonathan Kulp]

Mats Bengtsson wrote:

See http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=505 for a solution.

  /Mats



Thanks for this direction, Mats.  I tweaked it a bit to look more like 
the ones Samuel Barber uses but haven't had time to figure out how to 
make the split stem converge on a single stem that is then able to 
attach to other notes with beams.  Here's the code and an image is attached.


Jon
--
Jonathan Kulp
http://www.jonathankulp.com

%

fixB = {
  \once \override NoteHead #'extra-offset = #'(0.5 . 0)
  \once \override Stem #'rotation = #'(25 0 0)
  \once \override Stem #'extra-offset = #'(-0.2 . -0.2)
  \once \override Stem #'flag-style = #'no-flag
  \once \override Accidental #'extra-offset = #'(2.2 . 0)
}

fixC = {
  \once \override NoteHead #'extra-offset = #'(-0.5 . 0)
  \once \override Stem #'rotation = #'(-25 0 0)
  \once \override Stem #'extra-offset = #'(-0.2 . -0.2)
  \once \override Stem #'flag-style = #'no-flag
  \once \override Accidental #'extra-offset = #'(0.2 . 0)
}


\relative c' {
  << { \fixC d!8 } \\ { \voiceThree \fixB dis } >> s
}

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Re: nested staffgroups broken in 2.11.64

[今井雄治]

Hi, Simon.

Use "InnerStaffGroup" in StaffGroup.
How about like this:

\score {
\new StaffGroup <<
\set StaffGroup.systemStartDelimiterHierarchy
= #'(SystemStartSquare (SystemStartBracket a
(SystemStartBrace b c)) d)
\new Staff {
\set Staff.instrumentName = "Violin I Solo"
\set Staff.shortInstrumentName="Vl. Solo"
\violIsolop
}
\new Staff = "vIupper" {
\set Staff.instrumentName = "Violin I.I"
\set Staff.shortInstrumentName = "VI.I"
<<
\globalScore
\vIupper
>>
}
\new Staff {
\set Staff.instrumentName = "Violin I.II"
\set Staff.shortInstrumentName = "VI.II"
\violIp
}
\new Staff {
\set Staff.instrumentName = "Contrabasso"
\set Staff.shortInstrumentName = "Cb."
\cbp
}
>>
\layout {}
}

2008/11/28 Simon Bailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> hi,
>
> according to the documentation at :
> http://kainhofer.com/~lilypond/Documentation/user/lilypond/Displaying-staves.html#Nested-staff-groups
>
> the following code should produce the image shown in the documentation.
>
> \score {
>  \relative c'' {
>\new StaffGroup <<
>  \new Staff { c2 c | c2 c }
>  \new StaffGroup <<
>\new Staff { g2 g | g2 g }
>\new StaffGroup \with {
>  systemStartDelimiter = #'SystemStartSquare
>}
><<
>  \new Staff { e2 e | e2 e }
>  \new Staff { c2 c | c2 c }
>>>
>  >>
>>>
>  }
> }
>
> on my box (mac os x, leopard using 2.11.64 darwin-ppc) i get the attached
> image "weird-nested-staffgroup.png". what gives?
>
> i ran into this while trying to fix a problem with the following code:
>
> %%%
> \score {
>\new StaffGroup <<
>\new StaffGroup <<
>  \new Staff {
>\set Staff.instrumentName = "Violin I Solo"
>\set Staff.shortInstrumentName="Vl. Solo"
>\violIsolop
>  }
>\new StaffGroup  <<
>\new Staff = "vIupper" <<
>  \set Staff.instrumentName = "Violin I.I"
>  \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = "VI.I"
>  \globalScore
>  \vIupper
>>>
>\new Staff {
>  \set Staff.instrumentName = "Violin I.II"
>  \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = "VI.II"
>  \violIp
>}
>>>
>>>
>\new Staff {
>  \set Staff.instrumentName = "Contrabasso"
>  \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = "Cb."
>  \cbp
>}
>>>
>\layout {}
> }
> %%%
>
> this snippet gives me a wrong ordering of the staves. see attached image
> "wrong-staff-order.png" – here you can see that the contrabasso staff is
> printed first, even though common sense would dictate it come last.
> furthermore, the staffgroups aren't nesting properly – Violin I.I & I.II
> should have 3 levels of staffbraces...
>
> help? full source code of my example is in weirdness.ly.
>
> regards,
> sb
> --
> Simon Bailey
> Oompa Loompa of Science
> +43 699 190 631 25
>
> ___
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> lilypond-user@gnu.org
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Re: problems with learning lilypond

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 11/27/08 2:24 AM, "John Sellers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Understood, and no argumenthere then is another suggestion...if this
> tutorial is as good as you say.  Make sure it crosses the paths of newbies
> enough that they will end up reading before they get in as deep as I have.

I think we have solved this problem.  When newbies ask questions, we first
say "Read the Learning Manual".  And I've already asked you twice to read
the Learning Manual as a starting place for making improvements to the
documentation.

The new Learning Manual is *WAY* better than the old docs.  And everybody,
even veteran users like yourself, should read the LM.  I guarantee that if
you read the LM, you will understand lots of things you currently have
problems with.

> 
> Will I read it?  Yes, may the next time I run into a problem.

Don't wait until you run into a problem.  The Learning Manual is not a good
resource for *solving* problems.  That's what the Notation Reference is for.
The Learning Manual is an *excellent* resource for *avoiding* problems.  So
read it, from cover to cover, before the next time you work on LilyPond.  As
an experienced user, you can just read it; you don't need to try the
tutorial stuff if you don't want to.  But it will give you a *great*
overview of most of the stuff that is confusing in LilyPond, if you're
anything like me.

> But would you 
> tell me where to find it, and just which tutorial you are referring to?  I've
> read tutorial stuff a few times in the long distant past...and when I do read,
> I don't always make the associations you expect me to
> 
> Tell you what, I will take a look. I'll even try to go over the a few of the
> problems I had in the past to see if it answers to them.  There reason I have
> never looked at the tutorial in question is that I do not use anything beyond
> the current working stable version---actually the cygwin verison.   Is this
> learning tutorial going to be part of a stable version soon or might it be a
> good idea to patch up a generic version of the same that lies in the path of
> very newbie so obviously that they will get the message and go through it?
>

The development version is currently more stable (read: bug free) than the
"stable" version.  You should download the 2.11.65 development version, and
use it.  This advice has been given consistently over the last three months
on -user.

 
Thanks,

Carl



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nested staffgroups broken in 2.11.64

[Simon Bailey]

hi,

according to the documentation at : 
http://kainhofer.com/~lilypond/Documentation/user/lilypond/Displaying-staves.html#Nested-staff-groups

the following code should produce the image shown in the documentation.

\score {
  \relative c'' {
\new StaffGroup <<
  \new Staff { c2 c | c2 c }
  \new StaffGroup <<
\new Staff { g2 g | g2 g }
\new StaffGroup \with {
  systemStartDelimiter = #'SystemStartSquare
}
<<
  \new Staff { e2 e | e2 e }
  \new Staff { c2 c | c2 c }
>>
  >>
>>
  }
}

on my box (mac os x, leopard using 2.11.64 darwin-ppc) i get the  
attached image "weird-nested-staffgroup.png". what gives?


i ran into this while trying to fix a problem with the following code:

%%%
\score {
\new StaffGroup <<
\new StaffGroup <<
  \new Staff {
\set Staff.instrumentName = "Violin I Solo"
\set Staff.shortInstrumentName="Vl. Solo"
\violIsolop
  }
\new StaffGroup  <<
\new Staff = "vIupper" <<
  \set Staff.instrumentName = "Violin I.I"
  \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = "VI.I"
  \globalScore
  \vIupper
>>
\new Staff {
  \set Staff.instrumentName = "Violin I.II"
  \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = "VI.II"
  \violIp
}
>>
>>
\new Staff {
  \set Staff.instrumentName = "Contrabasso"
  \set Staff.shortInstrumentName = "Cb."
  \cbp
}
>>
\layout {}
}
%%%

this snippet gives me a wrong ordering of the staves. see attached  
image "wrong-staff-order.png" – here you can see that the contrabasso  
staff is printed first, even though common sense would dictate it come  
last. furthermore, the staffgroups aren't nesting properly – Violin  
I.I & I.II should have 3 levels of staffbraces...


help? full source code of my example is in weirdness.ly.

regards,
sb
--
Simon Bailey
Oompa Loompa of Science
+43 699 190 631 25
<><>

weirdness.ly
Description: Binary data
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Re: dissonant chords

[Mats Bengtsson]

See http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=505 for a solution.

  /Mats

Quoting Martin Tarenskeen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


Hi,

Did anyone ever try to typeset dissonant chords like { < c cis d > } ? I
can remember having seen chords like this frequently in Bela Bartok's
Mikrokosmos book V or VI , edition Boosey & Hawkes.

I don't have a scan or a scanner, but it would approximately look
something like this:



 0
0|#0
 |/
 |


Watch the "/" line that is attached to the main stem. I don't know if
there are generally accepted rules on how to notate something like this,
but this is what I have seen more than once.

Lilypond seems to accept < c cis d > ( unlike Mup ) but does not typeset
it in a readable way automatically. Can it be done with some advanced
tricks ?

(In the meantime I'll look up some real life examples from Bartok if
anyone needs it)

--

Martin Tarenskeen



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Re: dissonant chords

[Francisco Vila]

2008/11/27 Francisco Vila <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Chopin has it in etude Op 10 no. 2 IIRC

Oops, no, it's Op.10 no. 11, measure 2. Sorry
-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
http://www.paconet.org


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Re: dissonant chords

[Francisco Vila]

2008/11/27 Jonathan Kulp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> I don't have a scan or a scanner, but it would approximately look
>> something like this:
>>
>>
>>
>> 00|#0
>> |/
>> |
>>
>>
> I haven't tried typesetting this type of chord but I'm pretty sure Samuel
> Barber used them in "The monk and his cat," too.  If a scan would help then
> I can scan an example and send to the list next time I go to the office.

Chopin has it in etude Op 10 no. 2 IIRC

-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
http://www.paconet.org


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Re: Just chords and lyrics.

[Jonathan Kulp]

Carl D. Sorensen wrote:




That sounds good.  Where do the most current .itely files live now?  If
you want I'll add a bit about this.


I'll create a branch for your documentation and give you a copy of the
current .itely file, but it will probably be Friday (but maybe tomorrow).

Carl




Ok Carl, that sounds good.  No hurry about it--we're off of school b/c 
of Thanksgiving anyway.  Best,


Jon
--
Jonathan Kulp
http://www.jonathankulp.com


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Re: dissonant chords

[Jonathan Kulp]

Martin Tarenskeen wrote:

Hi,

Did anyone ever try to typeset dissonant chords like { < c cis d > } ? I 
can remember having seen chords like this frequently in Bela Bartok's 
Mikrokosmos book V or VI , edition Boosey & Hawkes.


I don't have a scan or a scanner, but it would approximately look 
something like this:




		 0 
		0|#0	

 |/
 |


Watch the "/" line that is attached to the main stem. I don't know if 
there are generally accepted rules on how to notate something like this, 
but this is what I have seen more than once.


Lilypond seems to accept < c cis d > ( unlike Mup ) but does not typeset 
it in a readable way automatically. Can it be done with some advanced 
tricks ? 

(In the meantime I'll look up some real life examples from Bartok if 
anyone needs it)


I haven't tried typesetting this type of chord but I'm pretty sure 
Samuel Barber used them in "The monk and his cat," too.  If a scan would 
help then I can scan an example and send to the list next time I go to 
the office.


Jon

--
Jonathan Kulp
http://www.jonathankulp.com


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Re: problems with learning lilypond

[Jonathan Kulp]

John Sellers wrote:


Will I read it?  Yes, may the next time I run into a problem.  But would you 


I can't believe I wasted my time reading this email when you STILL 
haven't looked at the current Learning Manual! Geez...


tell me where to find it, and just which tutorial you are referring to?  I've 
read tutorial stuff a few times in the long distant past...and when I do read, I 
don't always make the associations you expect me to


--
Jonathan Kulp
http://www.jonathankulp.com


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Re: \tempo alignment

[Simon Bailey]

On Nov 27, 2008, at 11:54 AM, Graham Percival wrote:

See:
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=684



thanks, graham. looks like i'll use extra-offset for now then.

regards,
sb
--
Simon Bailey
Oompa Loompa of Science
+43 699 190 631 25



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Re: \tempo alignment

[Graham Percival]

See:
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=684

Cheers,
- Graham

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 11:50:34AM +0100, Simon Bailey wrote:
> hi,
>
> i'm probably missing something _really_ simple here, either that or it's 
> not possible...
>
> i'd like to align the \tempo mark to the clef or the time-signature  
> rather than to the first note. is there an automated way to do this, or 
> should i just twiddle with the extra-offset setting?
>
> regards,
> sb
>
> p.s.: i tried \override Score.MetronomeMark #'break-align-symbol =  
> #'key-signature but that doesn't work (lily doesn't complain about the  
> property not being available though)
> --
> Simon Bailey
> Oompa Loompa of Science
> +43 699 190 631 25
>
>
>
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\tempo alignment

[Simon Bailey]

hi,

i'm probably missing something _really_ simple here, either that or  
it's not possible...


i'd like to align the \tempo mark to the clef or the time-signature  
rather than to the first note. is there an automated way to do this,  
or should i just twiddle with the extra-offset setting?


regards,
sb

p.s.: i tried \override Score.MetronomeMark #'break-align-symbol =  
#'key-signature but that doesn't work (lily doesn't complain about the  
property not being available though)

--
Simon Bailey
Oompa Loompa of Science
+43 699 190 631 25



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dissonant chords

[Martin Tarenskeen]

Hi,

Did anyone ever try to typeset dissonant chords like { < c cis d > } ? I 
can remember having seen chords like this frequently in Bela Bartok's 
Mikrokosmos book V or VI , edition Boosey & Hawkes.

I don't have a scan or a scanner, but it would approximately look 
something like this:



 0 
0|#0
 |/
 |


Watch the "/" line that is attached to the main stem. I don't know if 
there are generally accepted rules on how to notate something like this, 
but this is what I have seen more than once.

Lilypond seems to accept < c cis d > ( unlike Mup ) but does not typeset 
it in a readable way automatically. Can it be done with some advanced 
tricks ? 

(In the meantime I'll look up some real life examples from Bartok if 
anyone needs it)

-- 

Martin Tarenskeen



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Re: problems with learning lilypond

[Francisco Vila]

2008/11/27 John Sellers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Is this learning tutorial going to be part of a stable version soon

The tutorial in the learning manual is a part of the docs of the
current development version.
This version is the next stable. It is recommended to move soon to it,
for many reasons.
-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
http://www.paconet.org


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Re: problems with learning lilypond

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 01:13:21AM -0800, John Sellers wrote:
>(sorry to copy the whole thing back, but it seems appropriate some how).

-snip long rambling rant-

John, please spend a few minutes looking at our web pages.  We
already do virtually everything you mentioned.  You mentioned:

> asking the user to go the extra mile to boil down and re-boil
> down their feedback to make it precise about their problem

?  Well, step 1 of asking the user to boil down their feedback is
to ask them to LOOK AT WHAT WE'RE ALREADY DOING.

- Graham



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Re: Just chords and lyrics.

[Johan Vromans]

"Carl D. Sorensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> But LilyPond is transposable, ... one of the things I
> really like about LilyPond is that I can transpose songs
> automatically.

Chordii can handle that as well.

-- Johan
   Chord is alive! http://chordii.sourceforge.net


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Re: problems with learning lilypond

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 01:24:35AM -0800, John Sellers wrote:
>Understood, and no argumenthere then is another suggestion...if this
>tutorial is as good as you say.  Make sure it crosses the paths of newbies
>enough that they will end up reading before they get in as deep as I have.

... umm, WHAT?!

Are you seriously claiming that you couldn't find the "Learning
Manual" link?  Top-left on the Documentation page?

1) go to lilypond.org
2) click on "documentation"
3) click on "documentation for 2.11"
4) click on "Learning manual"
5) click on "1.2 About the documentation" or "2. Tutorial"


If you can find the documentation, you can find the tutorial.  And
if you can't find the documentation... well, some programs can be
used without reading the docs; lilypond is not one of them.

>I have never looked at the tutorial in question is that I do not use
>anything beyond the current working stable version---actually the cygwin
>verison.   Is this learning tutorial going to be part of a stable version
>soon or might it be a good idea to patch up a generic version of the same
>that lies in the path of very newbie so obviously that they will get the
>message and go through it?

2.12 will be released soon, and it contains all the latest docs.

- Graham


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Re: problems with learning lilypond

[John Sellers]

Understood, and no argumenthere then is another suggestion...if
this tutorial is as good as you say.  Make sure it crosses the paths of
newbies enough that they will end up reading before they get in as deep
as I have.

Will I read it?  Yes, may the next time I run into a problem.  But
would you tell me where to find it, and just which tutorial you are
referring to?  I've read tutorial stuff a few times in the long distant
past...and when I do read, I don't always make the associations you
expect me to

Tell you what, I will take a look. I'll even try to go over the a few
of the problems I had in the past to see if it answers to them.  There
reason I have never looked at the tutorial in question is that I do not
use anything beyond the current working stable version---actually the
cygwin verison.   Is this learning tutorial going to be part of a
stable version soon or might it be a good idea to patch up a generic
version of the same that lies in the path of very newbie so obviously
that they will get the message and go through it?

---John


Graham Percival wrote:

  On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:20:23PM -0700, Carl D. Sorensen wrote:
  
  
On 11/21/08 4:56 PM, "John Sellers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



  The origin of the problem is that developers don't have to walk the path of
the newbies from beginning to end and it is very difficult to provide a whole
documentation structure that is truly responsive to those kind of needs...so
most technical documentation the world over never does successfully do so.
  

  
  
Given that nobody on the doc team was an original developer, we
most certainly *did* walk the path of newbies.

  
  

  Good wishes, John Sellers
  

  
  
  
  
If I didn't make it clear in my earlier post, I'll try to make it clear now.

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO WHAT YOU ARE ASKING ME TO DO!

  
  
Also, John, read the Learning Manual of the 2.11 docs.  I can tell
that you haven't.  Front to back.

  
  
Won't you please help us figure it out?  You seem to have some good ideas.
Why don't you share them in some specific way so that we can get a clue?

  
  
General note for newbies: stop complaining that "we don't listen
to newbies" and then refusing to help with the docs.  If you get
involved, we'll listen.

Cheers,
- Graham

  





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Re: Just chords and lyrics.

[Francisco Vila]

2008/11/27 Jonathan Kulp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Now, the @TODO in the .itely file was, I think, referring to a different
> sort of "just chords and lyrics," where there was actually no music staff at
> all, just chord symbols and lyrics.  *That* was the result for which I
> recommended a word processor since it contained no music notation
> whatsoever.  Does anyone think it's worthwhile to make Lilypond produce
> something like this:
>
> CGC  D
> Words words words to the Song song song
>
> My opinion when doing the docs was that you essentially had to break
> Lilypond to make it do this.  It would be like me driving an 18-wheeler to
> get to my next-door neighbor's house instead of just walking over
> there--totally inappropriate tool for the job.  If anyone sees a reason why
> Lilypond should do this, then they're welcome ...

Thank you, Jon, this all is what I tried to answer first, but not
mastering the English language I put it in too few words.
-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
http://www.paconet.org


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Re: problems with learning lilypond

[John Sellers]

(sorry to copy the whole thing back, but it seems appropriate some how).

I hear your pain.  I'll do what I can, but it may not be much.  I'm
currently taking violin lessons from Jeremy Cohen (Grammy nominated
this year), and Julian Smedley (Berkeley Hot Club and others), and
Guitar from Jimmy Luttrell (Entered the Western Swing Hall of Fame this
year.)  

So, needless to say, I am working very hard and am very busy.

But I do have some ideas, and maybe we could have an on going dialog at
such a pace that would not be too much of a burden to either you or me.

My first thought out of the box?  Would be to start working on a
low-overhead system for capturing and redirecting stuck and frustrated
users at the point they get stuck or frustrated.  Feedback systems are
often too high overhead to your side or the user side to be really
effective.  Most attempts to create such a system are also not so easy
to do right because it is really hard to get both sides of the picture
without too much effort, and if the effort isn't spent, then you end up
with something less than successful.

But for starters a carefully constructed "first contact" in-context
link might be a first step on this path.  You want to get the feed back
without pigeon holing the user and at the same time, not overburdening
one's organization with umpteen Jillion "feedbacks".  One way might be
that the feed back box is fronted with a carefully constructed
explanation about your resource limitations, asking the user to go the
extra mile to boil down and re-boil down their feedback to make it
clear and precise about their problem.  One way to do this would be to
use something like the Google Idea Contest template, but boiling it
down to the specific purpose of getting unsticking/frustration fixing
feeback, carefully structuring and limiting the form to a certain size
while explaining to the user exactly why they need to be clear and
precise.  Googles form is wonderful  guide to structuring ideas in a
constructive form...this same concept could be adapted to your
purposes.  What Google's feedback form lacked was immediate feedback on
"size limitation" as the person typed...in other words it wasn't until
the person filled out the whole form and discovered their text was too
wordy. (just like I am now...lazy me...see you don't want this...you
should limit my comments to a clear title, a short explanation of my
idea,  a larger  description...etcsee the Google form if you can
find it.  Google's form would have been perfect if they had had an
automatic character counter on each field to tell the user when the
limit was reachedand perhaps explained even more (in context) why
clarity was needed.

If you were to do this in a way that can be clearly understood, I think
you will be surprised how much work people are willing to put into
making their explanation of their problem clear for you.

Taking this feedback form, if it is structured right, would enable the
lilypond employee/expert/helper quickly recognize exactly what kind of
remediation is needed.  I would expect this remediation be simply a
link other already written documentation. 

Step two, after some experience with this kind of feed back, would
likely lead to the "I'm frustrated/stuck" link being replaced with a
SPECIFIC SHORT LIST of ramediation which completely covers the
knowledge presented.

Step three, after a lot of experience with this kind of feed
backtaking from the very outset to plan a systematic way of
presenting the kind of topological sort of dependencies and compiler
and all that other fancy stuffdown the roadwe put together a
world class back end to your documentation which was able to ramediate
anything and everything that is compiledoh yea...minor detail...if
and when you every reach that stage, it means putting in place an
infrastructure for the programmers to enable them to do the programming
and the documentation of the logic of that programming at the same time
so there is a one to one correspondence to what liliypond compiler does
and the documentation which describes that particular part of the
language does.  Just as the compiler has to know what the language
means in order to turn it into music, the user has to know that same
thing in order to know what to type in order to turn it into music. 
See the parallel???  But that is way down the road, first you have to
understand from experience how the user's needs work, and you aren't
going to get that except from the feedback...thus starting with the
"frustration/stuck" links.  Eventually understanding how users get
stuck and frustrated looking at a particular piece of code will tell
you how to use the compiler parser for that particular piece of code to
automate feeding them back to the documentation to get them unstuck,
and in fact, what kind of documentation is needed to get them
unstuck...a long row to hoebut just think...a chance to be the best
in the world.

End of another tiradeso...

Re: Just chords and lyrics.

[Francisco Vila]

2008/11/26 strk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 06:49:11PM +0100, Francisco Vila wrote:
>> 2008/11/25 Keith Weintraub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> > Folks,
>> >  Anyone have an example (forgive me if I missed it in the docs) of just 
>> > chords
>> > and lyrics?
>> >
>> > I don't want to worry about the notes and just want to put word phrases
>> > more-or-less aligned with the correct measures.
>>
>> You do not need a music score typesetting system to do this, just use
>> a word processor or a spreadsheet.
>> What exactly do you think LP could be useful for?
>
> Hey, don't be rude!

Sorry, not intended. I meant, What exactly do you think LP could be
useful for, in this task? you have answered later.

> I think LP is useful because I don't *always* want that, but just
> as *one* of the outputs.

-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
http://www.paconet.org


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