Re: Chords and what they mean

[Blöchl Bernhard]

Am 18.09.2015 04:10, schrieb msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca:

On Thu, 17 Sep 2015, Blöchl Bernhard wrote:
 I would call (always depending on the context) Cmadd4, 
F7sus2/C,

D#6no5add2/C.



Always consider the harmonic context!!!


What exactly does the "harmonic context" mean?  What would be specific
examples of contexts where it could make sense to call this set of 
notes
Cmadd4, and contexts where it would be better to call it F7sus2/C, 
etc.?




If you look for examples for harmonic context read i. e. the Real Book 
or some other books about harmonisation. That is music theory and is 
somewhat beyond Lilpond. Such written harmonies most often try to 
describe the skills of a jazz soloist (or a great composer) and map it 
to a sheet of paper. In "classical" music harmonies are not so present 
in the names but more or less hidden in the notes of the orchestral core 
- may be I am wrong?.



If we are hoping to teach a computer program, i.e. LilyPond, to assign
correct names to chords, then we have to really say what the
considerations are that lead one name to be correct over another.



I tried to make clear that there is not just a single correct name for a 
chord. That is only true for the simplest chords of our simple original 
folk music. If one "colours" that up you get the bright colourful 
variety of skilled music that began with the development of orchestral 
events outside the churches and cathedrals and in the brothels of New 
Orleans.



I'd like to think it could be as simple as looking at the current key
signature for a clue, but I realize that's only likely to actually give
the right results in limited cases, and to highlight whatever errors
remain.  Maybe a smarter solution could involve a language model 
(hidden
Markov, context-free grammar, etc.) that could assign a likelihood to 
each
chord name for a set of notes depending on the ones before and after it 
-
like the standard techniques for determining which words in a sentence 
are
nouns and verbs and so on, even though any single word may be 
ambiguous.




AFAK there are some programs that make/support compositions. In my 
opinion that's the field of artificial intelligence and beyond just have 
a nice sheet of music.



It sure would be useful if there were a system of descriptive names for
sonorities *in isolation* that could be understood as giving a single 
name
to the set of notes not commenting on anything else except which notes 
are

and are not present, but I realize that's not the information
conventional chord names are intended to convey.

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idea for fretboard-diagram chords

[bart deruyter]

Hi all,

in my study about jazz it became very clear to me that the predefined
fretboard diagrams in lilypond are very limited, and why.

There just are too many ways to form a chord on the guitar to list them
all. I know the user can create their own custom fretboard tables, but in
my case, each time I have to do this, I have to look up examples of code to
create them correctly, in other words it often is quite some work.

A book I recently started reading brought me on an idea to expand the
predefined chord list.

To make it easier to learn, the author divided the chords in an interesting
way, He used the root string, not the root note.

It's just an idea and would not solve all problems, or offer all possible
ways to display a chord, but what if, as lilypond user one could choose a
fretboard diagram based on the root string. That way it might even be
possible to expand the list to inverted chords, using a similar syntax

I was thinking about something like for example:

\chordFretboards = \chordmode {
\set rootString #'6
c4:m

\set rootString #'5
c4:m
}

For inversions one might choose a number based on the n'th note of a chord,
for example 2 as the second note from the root note, which in the case of
c:m would result in a ees as the lowest note and display a fretboard
diagram accordingly.

\invertedChords = \chordmode{
\setrootString #'6
\set inversion #'2
c4:m
}

I think this can be used for other instruments too.

What do you think? Can this be achieved? Is it a good idea to implement,
good enough for a feature request? :-) .

grtz,

Bart

http://www.bartart3d.be/
On Twitter 
On Identi.ca 
On Google+ 
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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Orm Finnendahl]

Am Freitag, den 18. September 2015 um 08:05:03 Uhr (+0200) schrieb Blöchl 
Bernhard:
> If one "colours" that up you get the bright colourful variety of
> skilled music that began with the development of orchestral events outside
> the churches and cathedrals and in the brothels of New Orleans.

 hmm, and what about the colours of Medieval and Renaissance music and
the skills of people like Dufay, Ockeghem or Josquin? I'm really no
church person, but Josquin was singing in the sistine chapel ;-)

--
Orm

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Flaming Hakama by Elaine]

The most important thing to understand about the way Lilypond does chords,
is that there are three completely different parts.

1) Input syntax
2) Note sets
3) Chord symbols


1) Input syntax

To ask why writing "Csus" does not produce "Csus"?
Is to ask the wrong question.

Because the Input syntax for Lilypond is *not* the same as writing chord
changes.
It is its own special format.

You might complain, why invent another format?  Well, this input format
happens to be very well-defined:  there is only one valid interpretation of
*what notes are in the specified chord*.   Which is the entire point of
this syntax, to offer a shorthand for entering *sets of notes*.

(This is *not* the same thing as specifying the *type* of chord, since--as
many folks have opined--characterizing chords is not well-defined in many
cases.)


The input format is basically like:
[ root ][ duration ] : [ standard modification ] [ highest interval in
chord ] . [ additions and modifications ]

(I am not paying attention to deletions now because I am not familiar
enough with using them to generalize, and they are not part of common usage
of chord symbols.  Plus, anything that can be done with deletions can be
written explicitly in some other constructive way.)

So, "Csus" does not conform to the input syntax.   If you need anything
besides a major triad, you need to have the colon, and then the appropriate
additions and modifications.


Regarding using the syntax, the first thing to ask is, "what is the highest
interval in this chord"?  Which is to say, the highest interval that is
built on thirds.

The reason "C:5" is identical to a major chord is that the "5" is
specifying that the highest interval in the chord is the 5th.  So, you get
1 3 5.

In both of your examples, Csus and C5, there are *no* stacked thirds in the
"chord", so the first number you need to specify after the colon is "1".
Otherwise, you will get a 3rd.


Then, for every other note you need to add, you add a period and the
number, and optional +/- if it is an altered notes.

For the C5 chord, you would add the 5:  "C:1.5"
For the Csus chord, you would add the 4 and 5: "C:1.4.5"


The other approach  is to use modifications rather than additions.

The "standard modification" refers to things that lilypond recognized like
min, aug, dim, susX, which have well-known interpretations ( aug => raise
5th, min => lowered 3rd, , susX => replace 3rd with X, etc.)

Most modifications can also be notated by speciyfing the highest interval,
then modifying the elements afterword:
C:aug7 <==> C:7.5+
C:min <==> C:5.3-

An exception to this is sus.  Logically, I might expect this to work, but
doesn't:
C:sus4 <==> C:5.3+



2) Note sets

So, once you have your input syntax, lilypond converts that into note sets.
So, "C:1.4.5" becomes .

This is why you can have lilypond determine chord symbols from explicitly
written chords:  because the chordal input syntax transforms to this same
format, as an intermediate format.

So, if you already have the note sets, you can transform them into chord
symbols.

>From the point of view of fiddling with chord symbols, however, you won't
have to deal with this intermediate format.

But it is important to realize that this format is the lingua franca of
Lilypond chords.  Your input syntax gets transformed to note sets first,
and then the note sets are what are used to define the chord symbols.


3) Chord symbols

The identification of what chord symbols to print is done as a mapping from
the note sets to markup.

This is a mapping from the note sets (like ) to markup (both symbols
as well as formatting, for things like superscript)

If you don't like the markup Lilypond uses, you need to write custom chord
exceptions.

My explanation for doing that is available at
http://flaminghakama.com/flaming-lilypond-chords



The final comment I have is related to your statement:
"For me it is logic to understand, that c:sus will suspend the 3."

That is a correct *musical* interpretation of Csus. (In my opinion.)

Unfortunately, lilypond does not have a musical interpretation of sus.
Lilypond requires you to explicitly specify an interval to replace the 3rd
with.

I suppose that this is because some people (and Lilypond) think that C:sus2
is equally as valid or usual interpretation of "sus", and therefore
pretends that "sus" is not a well defined chord modification by itself.

Hence, if you are using modifications, why you need to say C:sus4 instead
of C:sus



HTH,


David Elaine Alt
415 . 341 .4954   "*Confusion is
highly underrated*"
ela...@flaminghakama.com
self-immolation.info
skype: flaming_hakama
Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Thomas Morley]

2015-09-19 1:39 GMT+02:00 Thomas Morley :
> 2015-09-19 1:05 GMT+02:00  <70147pers...@telia.com>:
>> On 2015-09-19 00:13, David Kastrup wrote:
>>>
>>> Noeck  writes:
>>>
 Having different *input* syntax for different people according to their
 taste is more complicated and it's doubtable that this is a good aim for
 LilyPond. Exchanging code gets more complicated and small snippets are
 not necessarily self-consistent. You always would have to specify the
 definitions. One example where it is possible is the input language of
 notes (e.g. \language english): In my German (\language deutsch) code >>> e g b> is a C7 chord not a Cmaj7. For note names I like that.
 What I am trying to say: Adjustable input syntax also makes life more
 complicated in other circumstances.
>>>
>>> \language is usually a closed set, so editors like Frescobaldi can be
>>> taught to convert from one to another.  Conversions of freely
>>> user-defined syntaxes is something entirely else, though.
>>>
>> My imagination of the procedure is, as I wrote before, not to change
>> anything internal of LilyPond, but to use some kind of pre processor. This
>> should, by means of a translation table, take my input and translate it into
>> LP code. So when I write c:sus this will be changed to e.g. c:sus4 (or
>> perhaps c:1.4.5) before it is dealt with by LP, and when I write c:5 it is
>> translated into c:1.5.
>>
>> However because of the discussion which has followed my question, I begin to
>> believe that the answer is no. Such a pre processor does not exist today.
>> /Kaj
>
> Such a preprocessor does not exist yet.
> Ofc someone could write a script to transform your input _before_
> LilyPond will see it, but why?
>
> Instead I tackled 'construct-chord-elements' from chord-entry.scm to
> do what you want.
>
> Making equivalent:
>
> \transpose c cis'
> \chordmode {
> \powerChords
> c:sus
> c:5
> c:5-
> c:5+
> }
>
> \transpose c cis'
> \chordmode {
> \powerChords
> c:sus4
> c^3
> c:5-
> c:5+
> }
>
> png attached
>
> Limitation:
> c:sus will not accept any additional argument after sus, c:7sus will
> work, though.
>
> I tried to make it available from inside a user-file, juggling around
> module-this-and-that. It needs to be known in lily-imports.cc. But
> without success.
> Honestly, even if possible, it's beyond my skills.
>
> Thus, you have to put it in chord-entry.scm. Best for now: rename the
> current 'construct-chord-elements' to something else and paste the
> attached code in there then.

Please delete:

  (display-scheme-music
(if (ly:pitch? (car flat-mods))
(ly:pitch-alteration (car flat-mods))
)
  )

It's some forgotten debugging-code.

>
> Please note, it's not really tested.
>
> Actually my OS is heavily broken, likely I'll need to do a complete
> new set up, which I will not tackle before having done a thorough
> back-up.
> But up to now I have not found the time to buy a backup-disk ...
>
> More, I'm not able to use git sufficiently atm, thus, if someone wants
> to turn the code into a patch, please do.
>
> HTH,
>  Harm

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Blöchl Bernhard]

Sorry - I forgot the M! So once again:


I love all LP users and I do not want to be unpolite - but 
R-T-F-M




Am 18.09.2015 21:20, schrieb Blöchl Bernhard:

Am 18.09.2015 19:53, schrieb 70147pers...@telia.com:

...

Csus means  it would be fine, if I
could define this once, and then use my definition(s) when entering
the music, instead of, like today, having to enter Csus4 or c:1.4.5,


Do you use a different program?
I checked c:1.4.5 and get  and not  as you claim!
Are you really working with lilypond or are you trolling?


to not get  which LP says is the definition.


Where did you find this definition??? Please simply check anything
yourself before encumbering!

\version "2.19.25"

theMusic = \chordmode {
  c:1.4.5
  c:sus4
}

\layout {
  ragged-right = ##t
}

<< \context ChordNames \theMusic
   \context Voice \theMusic




I love all LP users and I do not want to be unpolite - but
R-T-F



So if anyone knows of such a feature in LP, I would be glad to hear
it. So far at least I have not stumbled over it in my reading the
documentation.
/Kaj

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Blöchl Bernhard]

Sorry, I am heavily confused and severely irritated.

Csus4 or c:1.4.5 DOES deliver , say Lilypod is meaning  
for c:1.4.5 and csus.

Here my example again:

\version "2.19.25"

theMusic = \chordmode {
  c:1.4.5
  c:sus4
}

<< \context ChordNames \theMusic
   \context Voice \theMusic


So, please explain me, why should one need to tell Lilypond that c:1.4.5 
and c:sus4 should mean  and not  ???


That is to much for my todays evening! I think I should get some hard 
drinks in the Berlin night live - NOW.





Am 18.09.2015 21:25, schrieb Br. Samuel Springuel:

On 2015-09-18 3:20 PM, Blöchl Bernhard wrote:
I believe that you've misread the original poster.  He said that he
knows he can enter Csus4 or c:1.4.5 to get  but he'd like to
know how he can tell Lilypond that Csus should mean  and not .


✝
Br. Samuel, OSB
(R. Padraic Springuel)

PAX ☧ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Vaughan McAlley]

On 19 September 2015 at 07:30, David Kastrup  wrote:
>
> We have an exception for c:13 already (it leaves off the 11).

It would be great if that actually displayed C13. When a 13th is the
most complicated chord you’re using, you have to trawl the docs and do
a whole lot of experimentation just to get a simple C13 displayed.

I did, at least.

Vaughan

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Thomas Morley]

2015-09-19 1:05 GMT+02:00  <70147pers...@telia.com>:
> On 2015-09-19 00:13, David Kastrup wrote:
>>
>> Noeck  writes:
>>
>>> Having different *input* syntax for different people according to their
>>> taste is more complicated and it's doubtable that this is a good aim for
>>> LilyPond. Exchanging code gets more complicated and small snippets are
>>> not necessarily self-consistent. You always would have to specify the
>>> definitions. One example where it is possible is the input language of
>>> notes (e.g. \language english): In my German (\language deutsch) code >> e g b> is a C7 chord not a Cmaj7. For note names I like that.
>>> What I am trying to say: Adjustable input syntax also makes life more
>>> complicated in other circumstances.
>>
>> \language is usually a closed set, so editors like Frescobaldi can be
>> taught to convert from one to another.  Conversions of freely
>> user-defined syntaxes is something entirely else, though.
>>
> My imagination of the procedure is, as I wrote before, not to change
> anything internal of LilyPond, but to use some kind of pre processor. This
> should, by means of a translation table, take my input and translate it into
> LP code. So when I write c:sus this will be changed to e.g. c:sus4 (or
> perhaps c:1.4.5) before it is dealt with by LP, and when I write c:5 it is
> translated into c:1.5.
>
> However because of the discussion which has followed my question, I begin to
> believe that the answer is no. Such a pre processor does not exist today.
> /Kaj

Such a preprocessor does not exist yet.
Ofc someone could write a script to transform your input _before_
LilyPond will see it, but why?

Instead I tackled 'construct-chord-elements' from chord-entry.scm to
do what you want.

Making equivalent:

\transpose c cis'
\chordmode {
\powerChords
c:sus
c:5
c:5-
c:5+
}

\transpose c cis'
\chordmode {
\powerChords
c:sus4
c^3
c:5-
c:5+
}

png attached

Limitation:
c:sus will not accept any additional argument after sus, c:7sus will
work, though.

I tried to make it available from inside a user-file, juggling around
module-this-and-that. It needs to be known in lily-imports.cc. But
without success.
Honestly, even if possible, it's beyond my skills.

Thus, you have to put it in chord-entry.scm. Best for now: rename the
current 'construct-chord-elements' to something else and paste the
attached code in there then.

Please note, it's not really tested.

Actually my OS is heavily broken, likely I'll need to do a complete
new set up, which I will not tackle before having done a thorough
back-up.
But up to now I have not found the time to buy a backup-disk ...

More, I'm not able to use git sufficiently atm, thus, if someone wants
to turn the code into a patch, please do.

HTH,
 Harm
(define-public (construct-chord-elements root duration modifications)
  "Build a chord on root using modifiers in @var{modifications}.
@code{NoteEvents} have duration @var{duration}.

Notes: Natural 11 is left from chord if not explicitly specified.

Entry point for the parser."
  (let* (
 changed:

  	 (modifications 
  	   (if (and (member sus-modifier modifications)
  	   	(null? (cdr (member sus-modifier modifications
  	   (append
  	   	   modifications
  	   	   (list (ly:make-pitch 0 3)))
  	   modifications))

  	 (flat-mods (flatten-list modifications))
 (base-chord (stack-thirds (ly:make-pitch 0 4 0) the-canonical-chord))
 (complete-chord '())
 (bass #f)
 (inversion #f)
 (lead-mod #f)
 (explicit-11 #f)
 changed:

 (explicit-5 #f)

 (start-additions #t))

(define (interpret-inversion chord mods)
  "Read /FOO part.  Side effect: INVERSION is set."
  (if (and (> (length mods) 1) (eq? (car mods) 'chord-slash))
  (begin
(set! inversion (cadr mods))
(set! mods (cddr mods
  (interpret-bass chord mods))

(define (interpret-bass chord mods)
  "Read /+FOO part.  Side effect: BASS is set."
  (if (and (> (length mods) 1) (eq? (car mods) 'chord-bass))
  (begin
(set! bass (cadr mods))
(set! mods (cddr mods
  (if (pair? mods)
  (ly:warning (_ "Spurious garbage following chord: ~A") mods))
  chord)

(define (interpret-removals  chord mods)
  (define (inner-interpret chord mods)
(if (and (pair? mods) (ly:pitch? (car mods)))
(inner-interpret (remove-step (+ 1  (ly:pitch-steps (car mods))) chord)
 (cdr mods))
(interpret-inversion chord mods)))
  (if (and (pair? mods) (eq? (car mods) 'chord-caret))
  (inner-interpret chord (cdr mods))
  (interpret-inversion chord mods)))

  

Re: Chords and what they mean

[Blöchl Bernhard]

I am just getting off but read your actual posting and your different 
interpretation.


For me it is logic to understand, that c:sus will suspend the 3. What 
should happen with a chord without a 3? A powerchord. Usually one would 
define a substitute for 3, that is not the case with c:sus. Why should 
one wonder about  the result - simply a power chord. What else?


The question why c:5 only just gets a "normal" c chord instead of a 
power chord is not meaningless (at lest for me - as you see). And why to 
use c^3 instead of c:5. Why c:5 does not work ... Lilypond developers 
might rethink?


I worked in computer science whole my life and know that syntax is not 
always logic in a "logical" sense in that so logical science as it is 
called. I think many contradictions are just a question of habituation 
(internalisation of TFM).







Well, (re-)reading docs is always good advice, but I'm pretty sure
from his other posts, he did already.
More thoroughly than others.

Though, yes, Kay could have provided some more code example(s).

But, did you (re-)read his posts, trying to understand?






Anyway, I understood him as follows:

He tried
% 1
\chordmode {
c:sus
c:5
}
and was surprised by the printed output.

Which actually can be achieved by entering
% 2
\chordmode {
c:sus4
c^3
}

And now he asks whether inputting % 1 can be made to return what % 2 
does.



And now I'm thinking about it ...

-Harm

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Br. Samuel Springuel]

On 2015-09-18 3:20 PM, Blöchl Bernhard wrote:

Am 18.09.2015 19:53, schrieb 70147pers...@telia.com:

...

Csus means  it would be fine, if I
could define this once, and then use my definition(s) when entering
the music, instead of, like today, having to enter Csus4 or c:1.4.5,


Do you use a different program?
I checked c:1.4.5 and get  and not  as you claim!
Are you really working with lilypond or are you trolling?


to not get  which LP says is the definition.


Where did you find this definition??? Please simply check anything
yourself before encumbering!


I believe that you've misread the original poster.  He said that he 
knows he can enter Csus4 or c:1.4.5 to get  but he'd like to know 
how he can tell Lilypond that Csus should mean  and not .



✝
Br. Samuel, OSB
(R. Padraic Springuel)

PAX ☧ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[70147persson]

Hi all!

This thread has evolved in a very interesting direction, and although 
the discussion is often, I have to admit, much over my head, as being a, 
however interested, but none the less, musical amateur. I will not break 
this discussion, so I step into the thread via a  side path.


Now I would ask those of you who know LilyPond better than me: is there 
some kind of "pre processor" where I can define the chords the way I 
understand them. You might call it a context, possibly "my" context. 
This may also vary with different music, so maybe you could call it from 
some kind of library via an include command in LP.


At the start of this thread I was learned how to modify the output, 
printing, of my entered chords (via chordNameExceptions etc.), but it 
would be nice, if I also could enter them according to my "context". So 
if I think that e.g. Csus means  it would be fine, if I could 
define this once, and then use my definition(s) when entering the music, 
instead of, like today, having to enter Csus4 or c:1.4.5, to not get g> which LP says is the definition.


So if anyone knows of such a feature in LP, I would be glad to hear it. 
So far at least I have not stumbled over it in my reading the documentation.

/Kaj

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Re: Violin notation advice requested

[Michael Gerdau]

> No, both are fingerings.  The upper fingering is the recommended version
> for best phrasing and distribution across strings, the lower fingering
> is the simpler version mainly in first position (not sure whether the I
> is supposed to indicate position or the E string, I think the latter),
> only escaping to third position where first position is clearly
> insufficient.

I agree with all of the above except that I'm pretty sure the roman
number indicates position and not string number. I've never seen a
violin fingering indicating the string. Stating the position and the
finger does denote the string indirectly and every violist I know
would immediately be able to tell the string :)

AFAIA only guitarists (and possibly bass players) think about their
strings in numbers :)

Kind regards,
Michael
-- 
 Michael Gerdau   email: m...@qata.de
 GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Thomas Morley]

2015-09-18 21:20 GMT+02:00 Blöchl Bernhard :
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 18.09.2015 19:53, schrieb 70147pers...@telia.com:
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Csus means  it would be fine, if I
>> could define this once, and then use my definition(s) when entering
>> the music, instead of, like today, having to enter Csus4 or c:1.4.5,
>
>
> Do you use a different program?
> I checked c:1.4.5 and get  and not  as you claim!
> Are you really working with lilypond or are you trolling?
>
>> to not get  which LP says is the definition.
>
>
> Where did you find this definition??? Please simply check anything yourself
> before encumbering!
>
> \version "2.19.25"
>
> theMusic = \chordmode {
>   c:1.4.5
>   c:sus4
> }
>
> \layout {
>   ragged-right = ##t
> }
>
> << \context ChordNames \theMusic
>\context Voice \theMusic
>>>
>>>
>
> I love all LP users and I do not want to be unpolite - but
> R-T-F



Well, (re-)reading docs is always good advice, but I'm pretty sure
from his other posts, he did already.
More thoroughly than others.

Though, yes, Kay could have provided some more code example(s).

But, did you (re-)read his posts, trying to understand?



Anyway, I understood him as follows:

He tried
% 1
\chordmode {
c:sus
c:5
}
and was surprised by the printed output.

Which actually can be achieved by entering
% 2
\chordmode {
c:sus4
c^3
}

And now he asks whether inputting % 1 can be made to return what % 2 does.


And now I'm thinking about it ...

-Harm

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Blöchl (et al.),

I agree that it would be interesting to know whether/how one can redefine the 
input such that (e.g.) c:5 gives  (or  or whatever one wants) rather 
than  (current implementation).

However, modulo a language/communication barrier, I’d like to answer your other 
impliciit questions:

> What should happen with a chord without a 3? A powerchord. […] What else?

I would expect c:sus to give , equivalent to c:sus4.

> The question why c:5 only just gets a "normal" c chord instead of a power 
> chord

It’s a good question.
Certainly, composers (like me) who work in musical theatre write C5 to mean … so it would be nice to enter the same in Lilypond.

> And why to use c^3 instead of c:5. Why c:5 does not work

Analogously, c:6 would be ??
Hmmm… I don’t think that’s quite right…

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Polyphonic repeats with lyrics (and rests)

[David Wright]

I noticed some erroneous alto lyrics invading recent CPDL editions of
Farmer's Fair Phyllis. I think the cause was some overenthusiastic
factoring of the lyrics using tagging. So I thought I'd run up a copy
myself, producing folded/unfolded scores from one source file.

However I found, like others, that repeat barlines and voltas popped up
all over the place as soon as I entered the lyrics into the correct
structure. The Notation reference manual is not much help because none
of its examples involves either rests or more than one vocal line.

While none of the workarounds I've found on the web does the job
satisfactorily, I think it's unduly pessimistic to say, "Unfortunately
there is no clear recipe for entering lyrics and repeats which will
work in all circumstances, as all the suggestions are work-arounds due
to there being no well-defined interface in LilyPond for handling
repeats in lyrics."
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-03/msg00866.html

The problem lies with \lyricsto and \addlyrics, which are wonderful
shortcuts most of the time, but fall down badly here. By in effect
throwing away the rests, they lose track of where the lyrics are
(structurally, not which syllable they're attached to). However,
\new Lyrics \lyricmode (which tracks rests as well as notes) works
perfectly. It's just more laborious entering the durations and skips.
The documentation ought to point out this method and its advantages
somewhere.

But I think the most efficient (least laborious)fix for the problem
might be to enact comment #1 in Issue 3149 and prevent (perhaps
controlled with a switch) the repeat structure in a lyrics context
from putting repeat marks into the stave. (I haven't yet thought up
a case where such marks are useful, and I assume they're being added
because of the structure being "collected to the Score context".)
https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3149

Here's a snippet to illustrate the wrong and right methods. Does it
cover all the bases? Would it be suitable for inclusion in the LSR?
(after stripping out the wrong way).


\version "2.18.2"
\header { tagline = ##f }
notesi = \relative {
  c'4 e g c | \repeat volta 2 { r4 c, d e | f( g) a f | }
  \alternative { { r4 c'2 r4 | } { c1 | } } \bar "|."
}
notesii = \relative {
  c'4 c c e | \repeat volta 2 { R1 | d4( e) f d | }
  \alternative { { r2 e4 r | } { e1 | } } \bar "|."
}
wrongi = \lyricmode {
  This does not work. \repeat volta 2 { I’m on -- ly right in one }
  \alternative { { case. } { case. } }
}
wrongii = \lyricmode {
  This does not work. \repeat volta 2 { right in one }
  \alternative { { case. } { case. } }
}
righti = \lyricmode {
  This4 is the way.
  \repeat volta 2 { \skip4 Now4 -- I can un -- _ fold re -- }
  \alternative { { \skip4 peats.2 \skip4 } { peats.1 } }
}
rightii = \lyricmode {
  This4 is the way.
  \repeat volta 2 { \skip1 un4 -- _ fold re -- }
  \alternative { { \skip2 peats.4 \skip4 } { peats.1 } }
}
music = { <<
  \new Staff <<
\new Voice \notesi
\addlyrics { \wrongi }
  >>
  \new Staff <<
\new Voice \notesii
\addlyrics { \wrongii }
  >>
>> }
\score { \music }
\score { \unfoldRepeats \music }
music = { <<
  \new Staff <<
\new Voice = "voxi" \notesi
\new Lyrics \lyricmode { \set associatedVoice = "voxi" \righti }
  >>
  \new Staff <<
\new Voice = "voxii" \notesii
\new Lyrics \lyricmode { \set associatedVoice = "voxii" \rightii }
  >>
>> }
\score { \music }
\score { \unfoldRepeats \music }


Cheers,
David.

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Brett Duncan]

On 19/09/15 8:49 AM, Kaj Persson wrote:
As you wrote Csus ought to mean that the first third is removed, and 
nothing else. Among professional musicians, which I am not, but I have 
friends who are, this is not the whole truth, there exists a de facto 
standard which does not exactly coincide with the pure logical.
Not exactly - there are several conventions used by musicians, with a 
wide range of similarities and differences, but there is no one 
standard, de facto or otherwise.


Csus is one example, C5 another. So when I work with these people i 
will use their methods and system, not trying to introduce something 
else (more "clever"). Therefore it would be fine if one could adapt LP 
to the current situation.
Well, in this instance that might seem reasonable, where we are only 
talking about simple chords, but where the chords are more complex or 
follow some other convention, adapting LP might prove a lot more 
difficult. For example, a lot of jazz charts follow a widely used 
convention where minor chords are denoted with a minus sign and 
augmented chords are denoted with a plus sign, i.e.  F-7, G+. But LP 
uses these symbols in \chordmode for alterations.


But this all just points to the fact that there is a distinction between 
how chords are entered and how they are displayed. And given that the 
same chord can be displayed several different ways, that distinction 
cannot really be avoided. For my own purposes, the default chord names 
generated by LP are far from ideal, so like many I have a separate file 
of chord exceptions that I include when I need it. So long as the input 
method allows me to create the chords I need in a reasonably way and I 
can get the output to appear as I need it to, there is no need to make 
the input take the same form as the output.


Brett

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Re: idea for fretboard-diagram chords

[Marc Hohl]

Am 18.09.2015 um 08:40 schrieb bart deruyter:

Hi all,

[...]

For inversions one might choose a number based on the n'th note of a
chord, for example 2 as the second note from the root note, which in the
case of c:m would result in a ees as the lowest note and display a
fretboard diagram accordingly.

\invertedChords = \chordmode{
\setrootString #'6
\set inversion #'2
c4:m
}

I think this can be used for other instruments too.

What do you think? Can this be achieved? Is it a good idea to implement,
good enough for a feature request? :-) .


I like the idea, perhaps enlarged by a \set chordShape command.
Most chord shapes may be derived from either an open C, A, G or E chord 
voicing.


\set chordShape #'A
c4:maj7

Marc


grtz,

Bart

http://www.bartart3d.be/
On Twitter 
On Identi.ca 
On Google+ 


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Re: Chords and what they mean

[70147persson]

On 2015-09-19 00:13, David Kastrup wrote:

Noeck  writes:


Having different *input* syntax for different people according to their
taste is more complicated and it's doubtable that this is a good aim for
LilyPond. Exchanging code gets more complicated and small snippets are
not necessarily self-consistent. You always would have to specify the
definitions. One example where it is possible is the input language of
notes (e.g. \language english): In my German (\language deutsch) code  is a C7 chord not a Cmaj7. For note names I like that.
What I am trying to say: Adjustable input syntax also makes life more
complicated in other circumstances.

\language is usually a closed set, so editors like Frescobaldi can be
taught to convert from one to another.  Conversions of freely
user-defined syntaxes is something entirely else, though.

My imagination of the procedure is, as I wrote before, not to change 
anything internal of LilyPond, but to use some kind of pre processor. 
This should, by means of a translation table, take my input and 
translate it into LP code. So when I write c:sus this will be changed to 
e.g. c:sus4 (or perhaps c:1.4.5) before it is dealt with by LP, and when 
I write c:5 it is translated into c:1.5.


However because of the discussion which has followed my question, I 
begin to believe that the answer is no. Such a pre processor does not 
exist today.

/Kaj

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[David Kastrup]

Noeck  writes:

> Having different *input* syntax for different people according to their
> taste is more complicated and it's doubtable that this is a good aim for
> LilyPond. Exchanging code gets more complicated and small snippets are
> not necessarily self-consistent. You always would have to specify the
> definitions. One example where it is possible is the input language of
> notes (e.g. \language english): In my German (\language deutsch) code  e g b> is a C7 chord not a Cmaj7. For note names I like that.
> What I am trying to say: Adjustable input syntax also makes life more
> complicated in other circumstances.

\language is usually a closed set, so editors like Frescobaldi can be
taught to convert from one to another.  Conversions of freely
user-defined syntaxes is something entirely else, though.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Re: Chords and what they mean

[Kaj Persson]

On 2015-09-18 21:39, Thomas Morley wrote:

2015-09-18 21:20 GMT+02:00 Blöchl Bernhard :





Am 18.09.2015 19:53, schrieb 70147pers...@telia.com:

...

Csus means  it would be fine, if I
could define this once, and then use my definition(s) when entering
the music, instead of, like today, having to enter Csus4 or c:1.4.5,


Do you use a different program?
I checked c:1.4.5 and get  and not  as you claim!
Are you really working with lilypond or are you trolling?


to not get  which LP says is the definition.


Where did you find this definition??? Please simply check anything yourself
before encumbering!

\version "2.19.25"

theMusic =chordmode {
   c:1.4.5
   c:sus4
}

\layout {
   ragged-right =#t
}

<< \context ChordNames \theMusic
\context Voice \theMusic



I love all LP users and I do not want to be unpolite - but
R-T-F



Well, (re-)reading docs is always good advice, but I'm pretty sure
from his other posts, he did already.
More thoroughly than others.

Though, yes, Kay could have provided some more code example(s).

But, did you (re-)read his posts, trying to understand?



Anyway, I understood him as follows:

He tried
% 1
\chordmode {
 c:sus
 c:5
}
and was surprised by the printed output.

Which actually can be achieved by entering
% 2
\chordmode {
 c:sus4
 c^3
}

And now he asks whether inputting % 1 can be made to return what % 2 does.


And now I'm thinking about it ...

-Harm


Yes, one should never take things for granted. Now I tried to be 
concise, not using too many words, but obviously it was too short and 
brief. But Samuel and Harm did exactly express what I meant and should 
have written. So thank you Bernhard for trying to understand my thoughts 
even if expressed so dimly.


By the way, as I said before, I am not that clever, and familiar with 
all these advanced ways of expressing oneself, so your shorthand message 
is a first time experience for me. A try to use my imagination could 
maybe be something like Read-The-???-Manual, but this is just a guess. 
If so, I can really tell that I have read it, but there are so many 
possibilities with LilyPond, that the more special ones are often hiding.


I was late, so i did not see that you, Bernhard, had already sent 
another post, but Kieren has very clearly answered exactly the way I 
would have done. Being a computer engineer (correct?) (so am I), you are 
perhaps used to compilers, which by necessity must be very strict in 
dealing with the code, and you might think this naming of chords is a 
non consistent way of writing. As you wrote Csus ought to mean that the 
first third is removed, and nothing else. Among professional musicians, 
which I am not, but I have friends who are, this is not the whole truth, 
there exists a de facto standard which does not exactly coincide with 
the pure logical. Csus is one example, C5 another. So when I work with 
these people i will use their methods and system, not trying to 
introduce something else (more "clever"). Therefore it would be fine if 
one could adapt LP to the current situation.

/Kaj

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Noeck]

Hi Kaj, Kieren,

Am 18.09.2015 um 22:47 schrieb Kieren MacMillan:
>> The question why c:5 only just gets a "normal" c chord instead of a power 
>> chord
> It’s a good question.
> Certainly, composers (like me) who work in musical theatre write C5 to mean 
> … so it would be nice to enter the same in Lilypond.

Answering why is easy: The number indicates the step up to which thirds
are added [1] and between c and g you can put the usual 2 thirds.
The question is more whether that is a desirable logic, because this
standard C chord is already entered as c and – as posted several times –
C5 usually/often indicates  in scores. So this could qualify for an
exception.

Back to the question by Kaj whether the input language could be
adaptable: I would say, flexible ways of specifying the *output* is a
design goal of LilyPond and you can tweak almost everything to your
liking in the output on paper. Like the chord exceptions others posted.

Having different *input* syntax for different people according to their
taste is more complicated and it's doubtable that this is a good aim for
LilyPond. Exchanging code gets more complicated and small snippets are
not necessarily self-consistent. You always would have to specify the
definitions. One example where it is possible is the input language of
notes (e.g. \language english): In my German (\language deutsch) code  is a C7 chord not a Cmaj7. For note names I like that.
What I am trying to say: Adjustable input syntax also makes life more
complicated in other circumstances.

Cheers,
Joram

[1]:
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/chord-mode.html#extended-and-altered-chords

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Blöchl Bernhard]

I just was rereading your post as Charm (in a later post) recommended.

If I interpret you correctly, you would like a personal chord library 
yourself? A library you can maintain/care yourself? Good idea! Harm was 
sending me a piece of code for arabic scales (many thanks!!! Great! 
Works perfect). With this I had the idea to segment Lilypond to some 
"special interest segments" overlaying a general Lilypond basis. 
(Finding appropriate segments is an art!) I am sure some people use jazz 
harmonics other never will. Or arabic quarte tone scales ... etc.


Special interest groups? That should not necessarily mean a segmentation 
of the blog.


Regards


Am 18.09.2015 19:53, schrieb 70147pers...@telia.com:

Hi all!

This thread has evolved in a very interesting direction, and although
the discussion is often, I have to admit, much over my head, as being
a, however interested, but none the less, musical amateur. I will not
break this discussion, so I step into the thread via a  side path.

Now I would ask those of you who know LilyPond better than me: is
there some kind of "pre processor" where I can define the chords the
way I understand them. You might call it a context, possibly "my"
context. This may also vary with different music, so maybe you could
call it from some kind of library via an include command in LP.

At the start of this thread I was learned how to modify the output,
printing, of my entered chords (via chordNameExceptions etc.), but it
would be nice, if I also could enter them according to my "context".
So if I think that e.g. Csus means  it would be fine, if I
could define this once, and then use my definition(s) when entering
the music, instead of, like today, having to enter Csus4 or c:1.4.5,
to not get  which LP says is the definition.

So if anyone knows of such a feature in LP, I would be glad to hear
it. So far at least I have not stumbled over it in my reading the
documentation.
/Kaj

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi Blöchl (et al.),
>
> I agree that it would be interesting to know whether/how one can
> redefine the input such that (e.g.) c:5 gives  (or  or
> whatever one wants) rather than  (current implementation).
>
> However, modulo a language/communication barrier, I’d like to answer
> your other impliciit questions:
>
>> What should happen with a chord without a 3? A powerchord. […] What else?
>
> I would expect c:sus to give , equivalent to c:sus4.
>
>> The question why c:5 only just gets a "normal" c chord instead of a
>> power chord
>
> It’s a good question.
> Certainly, composers (like me) who work in musical theatre write C5 to
> mean … so it would be nice to enter the same in Lilypond.
>
>> And why to use c^3 instead of c:5. Why c:5 does not work
>
> Analogously, c:6 would be ??
> Hmmm… I don’t think that’s quite right…

We have an exception for c:13 already (it leaves off the 11).  For me
the main question is if c:5 is , what should c:5- and c:5+ be?  If
we find a satisfactory answer for that (I'm pretty much convinced that
they should stay  and  respectively and that basically
anything not starting with 5 should also stay the same, like c:m5 or
c:dim5 or c:sus5), it should not be hard to implement this input
exception.

I also don't see a point in needing a \powerchords command or similar in
order to have  be output as C5 rather than C.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Text centralized above a TextSpan

[David Nalesnik]

Hi,

Alright!  This should do it...

You can:

--Adapt this for versions < 2.19.27 with a loss of overriding power (style,
dash-fraction, etc.)--see comments beginning in line 435

--Use/mix markups and strings.

--Specify any number of texts >= 2 for your spanner.

--Break it across an arbitrary number of lines, with an acceptable
distribution.

--Use spacers ("") to force texts closer/farther apart.  You can also move
them like this:
\markup \translate [...]
\markup \right-align [...]
etc.

--Override the number of texts per line if you don't like the automatic
distribution.  There's a warning if the numbers don't tally.

--Specify which texts will be joined by a line and which won't using
TextSpanner.connectors. I noticed this request in another related thread:
http://www.mail-archive.com/lilypond-user%40gnu.org/msg103939.html

The default is to join everything, and we revert to that with a warning if
you specify too few connections. (Full disclosure: you can't hide one half
of a line crossing a break and show the other half, but unless there's some
pressing need, I'm going to forget I noticed this)

--Change the distance from text to line with TextSpanner.line-offset, which
defaults to #'(0.0 . 0.0).

Additionally, there are warnings for overlaps.  There's no attempt at
fixing these.  I wouldn't know how to influence spacing.

By the way, is there a way to get spacing to accommodate really long
left/right texts with ordinary TextSpanners without resorting to
\newSpacingArea, manual breaks, and the like?  I don't find a mechanism:
\textLengthOn doesn't seem to work...

Enjoy--
David

P.S.  One area of further improvement would be the input syntax.  Any
suggestions for making this more user-friendly?  I can't figure out how to
get markups to process properly without that off-putting

#(list #{ \markup "foo" #} )

construction.

%%%
\version "2.19.27"

%% CUSTOM GROB PROPERTIES

% Taken from http://www.mail-archive.com/lilypond-user%40gnu.org/msg97663.html
% (Paul Morris)

% function from "scm/define-grob-properties.scm" (modified)
#(define (cn-define-grob-property symbol type?)
   (set-object-property! symbol 'backend-type? type?)
   (set-object-property! symbol 'backend-doc "custom grob property")
   symbol)

% For internal use.
#(cn-define-grob-property 'text-spanner-stencils list?)

% user interface
#(cn-define-grob-property 'text-spanner-line-count number-list?)

% List of booleans describing connections between text items regardless
% of line breaks.
#(cn-define-grob-property 'connectors list?)

% How much space between line and object to left and right?
% Default is '(0.0 . 0.0).
#(cn-define-grob-property 'line-offset number-pair?)

#(define (get-text-distribution text-list line-extents)
   ;; Given a list of texts and a list of line extents, attempt to
   ;; find a decent line distribution.  The goal is to put more texts
   ;; on longer lines, while ensuring that all lines are texted.
   ;; TODO: ideally, we should consider extents of text, rather than
   ;; simply their number.
   (let* ((line-count (length line-extents))
  (text-count (length text-list))
  (line-lengths
   (map (lambda (line) (interval-length line))
 line-extents))
  (total-line-len (apply + line-lengths))
  (exact-per-line
   (map (lambda (line-len)
  (* text-count (/ line-len total-line-len)))
 line-lengths))
  ;; First and last lines can't be untexted.
  (adjusted
   (let loop ((epl exact-per-line) (idx 0) (result '()))
 (if (null? epl)
 result
 (if (and (or (= idx 0)
  (= idx (1- line-count)))
  (< (car epl) 1))
 (loop (cdr epl) (1+ idx)
   (append result (list 1.0)))
 (loop (cdr epl) (1+ idx)
   (append result (list (car epl)

 ;; The idea is to raise the "most roundable" line's count, then the
 ;; "next most roundable," and so forth, until we account for all texts.
 ;; Everything else is rounded down (except those lines which need to be
 ;; bumped up to get the minimum of one text), so we shouldn't exceed our
 ;; total number of texts.
 ;; TODO: Need a promote-demote-until-flush to be safe, unless this is
 ;; mathematically sound!
 (define (promote-until-flush result)
   (let* ((floored (map floor result))
  (total (apply + floored)))

 (if (>= total text-count)
 (begin
  ;(format #t "guess: ~a~%~%~%" result)
  floored)
 (let* ((decimal-amount
 (map (lambda (x) (- x (floor x))) result))
(maximum (apply max decimal-amount))
(max-location
 (list-index
  (lambda (x) (= x maximum))
  decimal-amount))

Re: Chords and what they mean

[mskala]

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015, Blöchl Bernhard wrote:
> I tried to make clear that there is not just a single correct name for a
> chord. That is only true for the simplest chords of our simple original folk

When someone enters a set of notes and asks LilyPond to print the chord
name, there's such a thing as a wrong answer, even if there may also be
more than one answer you would call correct.  LilyPond has to print
something and it would be preferable that it prints one of the correct
answers.  What rules should LilyPond follow to determine what it prints?

-- 
Matthew Skala
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Re: Chords and what they mean

[mskala]

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015, BB wrote:
> Can you really feed some notes to Lilypond and it tells you the name of the
> chord? A kind of reverse chord finder? I have not found in the manual.

I thought that was the point under discussion.  It's in the manual here:
   
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/displaying-chords#printing-chord-names

In the second chunk of example code, there's music entered like 2
and LilyPond assigning chord names to it.

If that's not what was being discussed, I'd better go back to lurking.
-- 
Matthew Skala
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before principles.
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/

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Biographies (was: OT: Beauty of programming languages)

[David Kastrup]

Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse
oculis meis vidi in ampulle pendere, et cum
illi pueri dicerent: Σίβυλλα τί θέλεις;
respondebat illa: άποθανεΐν θέλω.

[I saw myself with my own eyes the Cumaean Sibyl hanging in a bottle,
and when the boys said to her "Sibyl, what's your desire?" she answered
them "to die is my desire", a quote from the Satyricon most well-known
from the starting lines of T.S.Eliot's poem "The Waste Land"]

When granted a wish by Apollon, the Sibyl of Cumis, one of his
priestesses and seers, asked for eternal life.  Not having asked for
eternal youth or health as well, she eventually withered and shrank
until she would fit in a bottle, never able to die.

Age: 50

Blessed with great analytical talents but without the matching stamina
to engage them with anything that does not interest me, I haven't been
able to do any serious mental work that isn't fun.  An early attempt to
escape the problems from depending on unreliable gifts by doing an
apprenticeship in a bakery was shortlived since my body engaged in its
own version of obsessive compulsiveness by turning allergic against most
of anything to be found in a bakery within half a year, a fate that the
physicians predicted to be rather likely for most work of my hands.  So
I took up Electrical Engineering and managed to finish a diploma with
the help of coeds (which consisted in dragging me to practice sessions
where I "helped" them figure out the stuff from lectures that flummoxed
them, and with organizing call services so that I would not miss
deadlines and exams).  A later PhD never saw the completion of the
thesis, actually sort of a pity as the work was pretty novel.

The ability to pull through and complete stuff tends to be rather
important in programming jobs, so my career ended up very spotty.  The
last few years, I have spent living off the donations of various
LilyPond users and programmers, a somewhat embarrassing endeavor as I
often get locked up in less productive phases and don't communicate well
(it turns out that medication making me more productive at the same time
makes me completely unbearable and the other way round, and the vitally
necessary blood pressure medication makes stuff more difficult, so I
just stay off the psychopharmaceutics as there is no direction in which
they would be unilaterally helpful).  Since I haven't properly
maintained "customer relations" for the last few years (another
"tedious" task), at the current point of time my "income" does not cover
the costs of living in spite of several high-profile LilyPond figures
supporting me with sums that do not reflect our relative merits.

Living in a small town in Germany on the premises of my girl friend's
riding school (another venture that's not particularly good at matching
the bills), I spend most of my time at the computer, most of the time
working on something LilyPond related.

With a computing background starting with punched cards, a computer with
various self-built extensions and programs (I could only start using
CP/M after I've written my own boot loader and BIOS), I am pretty good
at understanding low-level programming problems.

At the same time, it offends my sense of design when implementation
details leak into a system such as LilyPond, so much of my work is
invested in making programming models work out cleanly and transparently
and making "naive expectations" match the actual behavior by changing
the behavior rather than the expectations where it makes sense.

I've been playing violin from young age, added guitar to the mix, have
sung in various choirs (a natural bass-baritone, I've sung either alto
or high tenor in the last years as my falsetto is the best developed
part of my voice and I prefer staying mostly above the break) and have
taken up accordion a few years ago (as finger-style guitar was a
mismatch in carrying power for chansonette performances).

I've recently made Emacs understand Midi input but found that I just
don't have the time and focus to work on bringing LilyPond's Emacs mode
into the 21st century.  Which is a real pity as the current code base
(not yet generally available) is quite nice for entering material but
then breaks down in usability for doing line-wrapping, quick entering of
durations and other editing stuff.

So the number of unfinished projects and loose ends is constantly
growing for me in spite of doing LilyPond full time already, and
consequently my bad conscience on not getting stuff done is also a
pretty constant fixture, making every moment equally bad for asking for
support of my work.

I probably share the problem of a lot of programmers of free software:
the time working on the program does not leave a lot of time for working
_with_ the program, so it's still important to get feedback from other
more arduous users.  Preferably without scaring them away forever.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Matthew,

>> Can you really feed some notes to Lilypond and it tells you the name of the
>> chord? A kind of reverse chord finder? I have not found in the manual.
> 
> I thought that was the point under discussion.  It's in the manual here:
>   
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/displaying-chords#printing-chord-names

The difference between _labelling_ a chord and _analyzing_ a chord is immense, 
especially in terms of the programming/processing required.
(Of course those functions overlap in the hands of an arranger/engraver…)

> If that's not what was being discussed, I'd better go back to lurking.

Don’t! It’s a good discussion (IMO).

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Urs Liska]

Am 18.09.2015 um 15:52 schrieb Kieren MacMillan:
> Hi Urs,
>
>>> What's with ? It is  Em#5 or C/E 
>> While we're at being picky, that would have to be Em with a flattened 6 …
> While _technically_ correct, you’d definitely want to write Em#5 for any 
> musical theatre performers/MDs, or most of the jazzers I know.
>
> And changing it to B# isn’t necessarily the right answer either.  ;)

Perfect example of "context".
I, as a classical musician, will get confused if presented with namings
that don't follow the harmonic content (given the historical style of
the music).
That would be the same for Em-6 (or however you'd spell it out) as .

Or some composers (mainly around the first half of the 20th century)
that think it's a good idea to "disguise" simple things without any real
harmonic need/consistency, e.g. chords like





I've seen all these and usually get confused by them because often it
really acts as blurring simplicity instead of indicating actual
alteration situations.

Another "real-world" example:
Have a look at the chord in the middle of measure 7 of this Schubert song:
http://imslp.org/wiki/File:SchubertD744_Schwanengesang.pdf
That chord has eleven flats on its seven notes (two c flats aren't
re-printed)!
Well, structurally it's simply a minor 7th chord which just happens to
be in the "distant" key of f flat minor ...

Going to the extreme that way is completely in line with the textual
interpretation of the song and the words (the feeling of dying that runs
"dissolvingly" through our body) - as it's dissolving the boundaries of
common tonality.

I suppose (but can't check right now) that the Mandyczewski edition goes
back to the manuscript, but someone (actually it must have been at least
approved by Schubert) thought it would be a good idea to "simplify" that
chord in the first edition:
http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/9/91/IMSLP370538-PMLP39282-LOEB_12363625_3.pdf
The four double flats have been replaced by their enharmonically
exchanged pitches, so we're having only three flats left.
While someone might think that's easier to read I strongly oppose
because that totally spoils the structural context (the chord is simply
built through stacked thirds) and also the voice leading.

Urs

>
> Kieren.
> 
>
> Kieren MacMillan, composer
> ‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
> ‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info
>


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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Urs,

> Perfect example of "context”.

Exactly!

> I, as a classical musician, will get confused if presented with namings
> that don't follow the harmonic content (given the historical style of
> the music).
> That would be the same for Em-6 (or however you'd spell it out) as  bis>.

Yes. In most of the current chorded music I’m writing (i.e., musical theatre 
songs), the chord names are there for ease of sight-reading and/or comping by 
the pianist (e.g., at an audition). So simple trumps function every time. And 
all the MDs and musical theatre composers/arrangers I know concur.

> The four double flats have been replaced by their enharmonically
> exchanged pitches, so we're having only three flats left.
> While someone might think that's easier to read I strongly oppose
> because that totally spoils the structural context (the chord is simply
> built through stacked thirds) and also the voice leading.

For luxurious study, that’s my preference, too.  :)
For sight-reading, simple trumps function every time.

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Urs,

>> What's with ? It is  Em#5 or C/E 
> While we're at being picky, that would have to be Em with a flattened 6 …

While _technically_ correct, you’d definitely want to write Em#5 for any 
musical theatre performers/MDs, or most of the jazzers I know.

And changing it to B# isn’t necessarily the right answer either.  ;)

Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Chords and what they mean

[BB]

Can you really feed some notes to Lilypond and it tells you the name of 
the chord? A kind of reverse chord finder? I have not found in the manual.


Is'nt the composer the person to define the desired sound in defining 
notes and chord colours?


Again: There is not just one single name for an essamble of more than 
three notes. And even with three notes there are inversions possible. A 
c chord usually is , with c the lowest note and g the highest. 
What's with ? It is  Em#5 or C/E - you have the choice. And e> is C/G or Em#5/G. Now do the same with 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, ... note chords.



On 18.09.2015 09:10, msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015, Blöchl Bernhard wrote:

I tried to make clear that there is not just a single correct name for a
chord. That is only true for the simplest chords of our simple original folk

When someone enters a set of notes and asks LilyPond to print the chord
name, there's such a thing as a wrong answer, even if there may also be
more than one answer you would call correct.  LilyPond has to print
something and it would be preferable that it prints one of the correct
answers.  What rules should LilyPond follow to determine what it prints?



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Re: OT: Beauty of programming languages

[zzk]

Here I come, 50's :)

Instruments: keyboards and acoustic guitar.

Started using Lilypond in combination with Sublime Text 2 in 2013 to typeset
my own music, after getting frustrated with Sibelius. I have learned about
Lilypond through Steinberg's blog on their new notation software.

Currently considering to change my workflow to Frescobaldi / Sublime Text
combo. Frescobaldi has some fantastic features, but I find Sublime Text to
be faster and more flexible for text entry, and it also supports the
Lilypond's syntax.

Zoran



--
View this message in context: 
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Way-to-flatten-nested-include-s-tp179946p181300.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Urs Liska]

Am 18.09.2015 um 15:39 schrieb BB:
> What's with ? It is  Em#5 or C/E 
While we're at being picky, that would have to be Em with a flattened 6 ...

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi all,

On Sep 17, 2015, at 10:10 PM, msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
> If we are hoping to teach a computer program, i.e. LilyPond, to assign
> correct names to chords, then we have to really say what the
> considerations are that lead one name to be correct over another.

I don’t think anyone here is really hoping to teach Lily to assign correct 
names to chords. And since there are, between human musicians and theorists, 
significant disagreements about “correct”/“best" naming conventions — not to 
mention that a single arranger might have difficulty choosing between two (or 
more) names for the same chord — I think the artificial intelligence required 
is far beyond the scope of what Lilypond will ever have.***

What __is__ being done, as far as I can tell, is providing a mechanism for 
__users__ to tell Lilypond what to __print__ (not “assign”) when faced with a 
given vertical intervallic structure (a.k.a. “chord”), and supplying reasonable 
__defaults__ (so the user mustn’t start from zero).

Hope this helps!
Kieren.

*** Then again, some intrepid person with a lot of time on their hands and 
excellent coding skills might want to tackle such a Herculean task. There might 
be a “beauty score” that could be calculated in light of the harmonic movement 
before and after the chord in question — much like the way Lily decides between 
multiple slur options, the “best” chord name __might__ be calculable with, for 
some users, an acceptable failure rate.



Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Chords and what they mean

[BB]

Does Medivial and Renaissance music, Dufay, Ockeghem or Josquin really 
use chords in their sheets?

The subject of that thread is "Chords and what they mean".


On 18.09.2015 08:41, Orm Finnendahl wrote:

Am Freitag, den 18. September 2015 um 08:05:03 Uhr (+0200) schrieb Blöchl 
Bernhard:

If one "colours" that up you get the bright colourful variety of
skilled music that began with the development of orchestral events outside
the churches and cathedrals and in the brothels of New Orleans.

  hmm, and what about the colours of Medieval and Renaissance music and
the skills of people like Dufay, Ockeghem or Josquin? I'm really no
church person, but Josquin was singing in the sistine chapel ;-)

--
Orm

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Re: Violin notation advice requested

[David Kastrup]

"Javier Ruiz-Alma"  writes:

> Pardon my ignorance RE: string notation.
>
> An 1800's typeset I'm transcribing uses different fonts for what I figured
> were all fingering indications.
>
> Is there a significance for the use of unique fonts for notes having both
> upper and lower number indications?
>
> I wondered if the lower digit may point to string number, not finger number.

No, both are fingerings.  The upper fingering is the recommended version
for best phrasing and distribution across strings, the lower fingering
is the simpler version mainly in first position (not sure whether the I
is supposed to indicate position or the E string, I think the latter),
only escaping to third position where first position is clearly
insufficient.

Second (and fourth) position is somewhat harder to play (and sightread)
for most violinists so it is mainly employed by seasoned players where
the gains for the string voicing outweigh the awkwardness of a less
practiced hand position.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Blöchl Bernhard]

Am 18.09.2015 19:53, schrieb 70147pers...@telia.com:

...

Csus means  it would be fine, if I
could define this once, and then use my definition(s) when entering
the music, instead of, like today, having to enter Csus4 or c:1.4.5,


Do you use a different program?
I checked c:1.4.5 and get  and not  as you claim!
Are you really working with lilypond or are you trolling?


to not get  which LP says is the definition.


Where did you find this definition??? Please simply check anything 
yourself before encumbering!


\version "2.19.25"

theMusic = \chordmode {
  c:1.4.5
  c:sus4
}

\layout {
  ragged-right = ##t
}

<< \context ChordNames \theMusic
   \context Voice \theMusic




I love all LP users and I do not want to be unpolite - but 
R-T-F




So if anyone knows of such a feature in LP, I would be glad to hear
it. So far at least I have not stumbled over it in my reading the
documentation.
/Kaj

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Violin notation advice requested

[Javier Ruiz-Alma]

Pardon my ignorance RE: string notation.

An 1800's typeset I'm transcribing uses different fonts for what I figured
were all fingering indications.

Is there a significance for the use of unique fonts for notes having both
upper and lower number indications?

I wondered if the lower digit may point to string number, not finger number.


Sample image attached.

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Fauré requiem

[David Wright]

Hi, I've looked at your score and I fall into the Simon Albrecht camp,
but I'll reply privately with questions of preference.

I have a copy of OUP's Rutter 1893 version, only the vocal, not the
full score. It's in the OUP's larger format (inconvenient for folders)
and I've never sung from it (my wife has) because I prefer the Hamelle
open score (and Rutter also has to accomodate his English translation
with dashed slurs and the odd tie).

Mixing copies for performance necessitates a new set of rehearsal
marks (Hamelle's advance faster) and quite a few markings:
word changes (bars 34, 81), cutoffs (bars 10, 11, 38, 87), bar 24
beat 1 is a rest (or else a domino!), and the disposition of parts
(bars 51, 53), all these from the Kyrie. (BTW you have the sopranos
singing F in bar 53.)

Most of these differences don't concern me as a singer (the conductor
chooses the dynamics, indicates the cutoffs, and adjusts the parts to
match the strength of the sections) as much as they do you in
preparing an edition. As your edition is choral, I can't check for
any instrumental differences.

Rutter refers to a paper published in November 1984 in "The American
Organist" about differences between versions and his editorial
treatment (because he's publishing a score and orchestral parts).
The organ part in his vocal score is original, and he adds a second
keyboard just where it's essential (Libera me bar 53 comes to mind).
That might make this edition hard to use for some organists playing
alone in a church service.

The edition is actually Hinshaw's (1984); OUP publish it (1985) under
licence. The title page says it's not for sale in France, West Germany
[sic], Spain, Portugal, Columbia, Panama or Cuba. I assume somebody
else licenses it there (or else this list might be out of date).

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Urs Liska]

Am 18.09.2015 um 17:06 schrieb Kieren MacMillan:
> Hi Urs,
>
>> Perfect example of "context”.
> Exactly!
>
>> I, as a classical musician, will get confused if presented with namings
>> that don't follow the harmonic content (given the historical style of
>> the music).
>> That would be the same for Em-6 (or however you'd spell it out) as > bis>.
> Yes. In most of the current chorded music I’m writing (i.e., musical theatre 
> songs), the chord names are there for ease of sight-reading and/or comping by 
> the pianist (e.g., at an audition). So simple trumps function every time. And 
> all the MDs and musical theatre composers/arrangers I know concur.
>
>> The four double flats have been replaced by their enharmonically
>> exchanged pitches, so we're having only three flats left.
>> While someone might think that's easier to read I strongly oppose
>> because that totally spoils the structural context (the chord is simply
>> built through stacked thirds) and also the voice leading.
> For luxurious study, that’s my preference, too.  :)
> For sight-reading, simple trumps function every time.

Yes, but reading the chord from the later edition (i.e. the harmonically
"correct" spelling) is much simpler because it allows me to "grasp" its
function as a seventh of a minor sub dominant from how the noteheads are
laid out on the page.
The seemingly simpler chord in the original edition doesn't "speak" to
me at all, and I'm forced to go through it note by note. That is I have
to find the correct place for each finger and only then will be able to
understand what it "is".

So the question of "simpler" is a question of context (i.e. background
on the reader's part).

Urs

>
> Cheers,
> Kieren.
> 
>
> Kieren MacMillan, composer
> ‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
> ‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info
>


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Re: Chords and what they mean

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Urs,

> the question of "simpler" is a question of context (i.e. background on the 
> reader's part).

Agreed.

“Simpler” is also a question of practicality: for most pianists I know or have 
worked with, Bb7/D is significantly easier to parse at sight than A#7/Cx, 
regardless of what comes before or after.

And, yes, that’s an actual example from a musical theatre song of mine. After 
much internal debate and many discussions with trusted colleagues, I ultimately 
chose the harmonically-incorrect but easier-to-sight-read Bb7/D. Anyone who 
would prefer A#7/Cx is free to write it in by hand.  =)

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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