Re: lilypond-user Digest, Vol 167, Issue 48

[David Wright]

On Fri 14 Oct 2016 at 17:14:45 (-0700), Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
> > 5.) Is there any good "tutorial" about proper use of "D.S. al Fine"
> > and weird usages of those Segno signs? I've seen some, but wouldn't
> > mind seeing some nice reference just to make sure that I properly
> > understand the correct usage in all weird cases.
> 
> I'm not sure what a weird usage of D.S. would be.
> What do you have in mind?
> 
> In terms of complexity, I've seen pieces that have more than one D.S.
> and/or coda, in which case you double up the symbol (D.S.S.)
> 
> This link covers the standard usages:
> http://learnmusictheory.net/PDFs/pdffiles/01-01-08-RepeatSigns.pdf
> 
> I'm not sure that "weird" usages would be covered in any tutorial.  Maybe
> in a more comprehensive reference?  Does Gould have anything to say about
> it?
> 
> I've also started using the \barline "S" rather than the traditional segno
> sign.  In rehearsals, this has led to a new saying, "squiggle is the new
> D.S.", which is quaint if somewhat inaccurate (squiggle is the new segno).
> 
> I find the "S" barline easier to see visually on the page, and easier to
> deal with within lilypond since it is part of the musical flow and doesn't
> compete for space above the staff.
> 
> Especially if you are using the traditional segno symbol as marks, and also
> for using the coda symbol, then you will run into issue around line breaks
> and multiple rehearsal marks.  In those situations, this snippet helps:
> http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Snippet?id=977
> 
> I have consolidated my working notes for long repeats at
> http://flaminghakama.com/lilypond-lilypond-lilypond
> 
> One final opinion about repeats: if the roadmap gets too complicated, it
> will be difficult for musicians to read it.  Unless you have serious space
> constraints (reading from marching band lyres), it saves rehearsal time and
> everyone's brainpower to simply write out things that are similar but not
> identical, rather than trying to save ink and make things dense with
> quasi-repeats and lots of annotations.

+1

A published example: compare Tippett's "O by and by" in "A child of
our time" with the 8-part arrangement. The latter's D.S. al Fine is
very confusing because it envelops a normal long repeat. So confusing,
in fact, that Schott felt the need to write "last time only" in its
2nd-time bar.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Beginner's questions about long repeats & MIDI files

[David Wright]

On Fri 14 Oct 2016 at 16:41:31 (-0700), Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
> > 4.) What's the proper way to write the following:
> >
> > c4 4 4
> >
> > when c's duration is actually "2." (a single button press) and d's
> > duration is "2" (again a single button press)? Should one draw c2. or
> > three c4, connected with a tie/slur?
> >
> 
> 
> I think there are different approaches to this.
> 
> While the 2. makes it clearer that the c2. is one note, not three, it would
> make it ambiguous when the d comes in--unless you do it with parallel
> voices and add a r4 rest.  But then you have to deal with tweaking stem and
> rest directions and locations, and this approach doesn't generally work
> well with more than 2 voices.
> 
> So, I'd just tie them together.
> 
> Although, for this particular set of notes you'd need to do a lot of
> tweaking to get the layout clear.  The default output for this cluster is
> pretty lame, with the ties between the c's not being on the same line, and
> the tie between the d's looking like it is a slur from d to e.
> 
> The default output looks better for a normal chord.
> 
> 
> \version "2.19.15"
> 
> 
> \score {
> \header { piece = "Parallel voices" }
> {
> \time 3/4
> << { c'2. } \\ { r4 d'2 } \\ { r2 e'4 } >>
> << { c'2. } \\ { r4 d'2 } \\ { r2 g'4 } >>
> }
> }
> 
> \score {
> \header { piece = "Ties" }
> {
> \time 3/4
> c'4 ~ 4 ~ 4
> c'4 ~ 4 ~ 4
> }
> }

How about a compromise?

Cheers,
David.
\score {
  \header { piece = "Parallel voices" }
  {
\time 3/4
<< { c'2. } \\ { r4 d'2 } \\ { r2 e'4 } >>
<< { c'2. } \\ { r4 e'2 } \\ { r2 g'4 } >>
  }
}

\score {
  \header { piece = "Compromise" }
  {
\time 3/4
<< { c'2_~ 4 } \\ { r4 d'2 } >>
<< { c'2_~ 4 } \\ { r4 e'2 } >>
  }
}

\score {
  \header { piece = "Ties" }
  {
\time 3/4
c'4 ~ 4 ~ 4
c'4 ~ 4 ~ 4
  }
}


scrunch.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: Beginner's questions about long repeats & MIDI files

[David Wright]

On Sat 15 Oct 2016 at 22:39:28 (+0200), Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On 15 October 2016 at 01:01, Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
> >
> >> 2.) Sometimes I have a very simple repeat pattern, say, part A repeats
> >> four times.
> >> The only difference is that the third time "c2." gets replaced by "c2
> >> c4" somewhere in the middle due to an additional syllable in the
> >> lyrics.
> >>
> >> a) What's the correct way to visually represent that? Drawing the full
> >> c2. plus some additional c4 in parenthesis at the end? How do you type
> >> it in? Or "c2(c4)" with a potentially dashed tie/slur/whatever that is
> >> called.
> >>
> >> b) How does one get a correct MIDI file? I can imagine writing
> >>
> >> aa = {...}
> >> ab = { c2. | }
> >> ac = { c2 c4 | }
> >> ad = {...}
> >> aA = { \aa \ab \ad }
> >> aB = { \aa \ac \ad}
> >> melodyMIDI = { \aA \aA \aB \aA }
> >>
> >> and slightly different approach for engraving to fake proper visual
> >> appearance, but I'm sure there must be a more straightforward way with
> >> some "if this is the third time of repeating this segment, do
> >> something different for this one single note".
> >
> >
> > I'm not familiar enough with vocal scores to know the standard practice in
> > for this circumstance.
> >
> > For instrumental music, one approach I've seen is to display both rhythms
> > using parallel voices and add text to instruct the performer when to play
> > each variation.
> >
> > I'm not sure how nicely this plays with lyrics.
> >
> > \version "2.19.15"
> >
> > aa = { g'2. 2. 2. }
> > ab = { c'2. | }
> > ac = { c'2 4 | }
> > ad = { b'2. 2. }
> >
> > bothVariations = <<
> > { <>^\markup { \column { "1st, " "2nd &" "4th X" } } \ab } \\
> > { <>_"3rd X" \ac }
> >>>
> 
> Thank you very much for the example. I compiled it, but the output
> doesn't look too appealing to me.
> 
> But you gave me the idea how to do it with two voices. For the visual
> part I decided to use something like the following:
> 
> <<
>   {
> 2.~ |
> 2. |
>   }
>   {
> s2. |
> s2 \parenthesize f4 |
>   }
> >>
> 
> That is: misuse parallel voices, use as much skip as necessary and add
> a note inside parenthesis. There is no need for an explicit
> explanation of when that additional note is needed. If the lyrics
> stands below the scores, it's clear which one needs an additional
> syllable.

I can't see the point of fussing with parentheses. It just makes it
harder to read. Conventionally, one sets the subdivided notes and uses
dashed ties/slurs to join them up. The undivided words are set with a
lyric extension, and the divided words are set as normal except that
it is clearer and neater if you also left align them as if they were
being set under a melisma too.

If the subdivision is unambiguous, ie splitting 2 → 4 4 rather than
2. → 2 4 (which might be 4 2), I often just set the "two words" like
that under the (undivided) note. Doing this with a hymn like "God is
working his purpose out" (Benson—irregular) makes it easy to get a
mistake-free performance.

When the rhythms get completely different for a short passage, you
could try the method that came up here a couple of times recently.
I've never seen anything published this way, but a choir might prefer
it as an alternative to having to turn the page for another fully
written-out verse.

Cheers,
David.
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Re: Beginner's questions about long repeats & MIDI files

[David Wright]

On Sat 15 Oct 2016 at 07:36:41 (+0200), Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Thank you very much for some very useful suggestion. I'll reply to the
> rest later, but I have one "objection" (I could probably have
> mentioned that in my first post):
> 
> On 15 October 2016 at 01:22, Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
> >
> >> Is there a way to make this both appear correctly and play correctly
> >> in a midi file?
> >
> > Similar to an earlier question, no, MIDI doesn't honor or respect repeats.
> 
> This is not entirely true. I happily use a super easy way to make this work:
> 
> melody = {...}
> \unfoldRepeats { \melody }
> 
> to generate the MIDI file and for simple repeats like
> 
> \repeat volta 2 {...} \alternative {{...}{...}})
> 
> that simply works perfect.

Yes, that describes the "long-normal-repeat" structure documented in
the manual, as used by classical composers in sonata form. Once you
go beyond that structure, you just have repeated music fragments, and
you're responsible for assembling the fragments yourself.

As far as midi is concerned, LP will handle that structure even if you
nest it, as in the attached. As you can see, it's the volta notation
that struggles to render nested repeat structures. I haven't yet
clapped eyes on a score that used the Y position of voltas to indicate
inner and outer repetition loops.

LP offers plenty of notational alternatives to use in assembling
fragments, but there's too much variety of outcomes for a single
conventional construction (equivalent to \repeat) to be useful.
The notations available are just markups: you'll notice that
syntax editors don't indent repeated sections on their account,
unlike \repeat.

> I'm just saying that it would be awesome if I could convince
> \unfoldRepeats to be able to obey some more complex scenarios.

Indeed it would. I would wonder at LP's ability to read my
intentions and be fearful about what else it was divining.

> (But I believe that tagging will do the trick.)

Yes, or just assemble fragments as appropriate.

Cheers,
David.
melodyIntro = { d'1 1 }
melodyA = { e'1 1 }
melodyAI = { f'1 }
melodyAII = { g'1 }
melodyB = { a'1 1 }
melodyBI = { b'1 }
melodyBII = { c''1 }
melodyC = { d''1 1 }
melodyCI = { e''1 }
melodyCII = { f''1 }
melodyOutro = { g''1 1 }

mus = {
  \melodyIntro
  \repeat volta 2 {
\repeat volta 2 {
  \melodyA
}
\alternative {
  {
\melodyAI
  }
  {
\melodyAII
  }
}
  }
  \alternative {
{
  \repeat volta 2 {
\melodyB
  }
  \alternative {
{
  \melodyBI
}
{
  \melodyBII
}
  }
}
{
  \repeat volta 2 {
\melodyC
  }
  \alternative {
{
  \melodyCI
}
{
  \melodyCII
}
  }
}
  }
  \melodyOutro
}
\markup { Intro-A1-A2-B1-B2-A1-A2-C1-C2-Outro }
\score {
  \mus
}
\score {
  \mus
  \midi {
\tempo 1=60
  }
}
\score {
  \unfoldRepeats
  \mus
}
\score {
  \unfoldRepeats
  \mus
  \midi {
\tempo 1=60
  }
}


recurs.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document


recurs-00.midi
Description: MIDI audio


recurs-01.midi
Description: MIDI audio
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Re: Beginner's questions about long repeats & MIDI files

[David Kastrup]

Mojca Miklavec  writes:

> Thank you very much for the example. I compiled it, but the output
> doesn't look too appealing to me.
>
> But you gave me the idea how to do it with two voices. For the visual
> part I decided to use something like the following:
>
> <<
>   {
> 2.~ |
> 2. |
>   }
>   {
> s2. |
> s2 \parenthesize f4 |
>   }
> >>
>
> That is: misuse parallel voices, use as much skip as necessary and add
> a note inside parenthesis.

Those are not parallel voices but parallel music resulting in a single
voice.  To get two voices, you'd write << ... \\ ... >> rather than
<< ... ... >> .

That's important since you also only get a single stem for parallel
notes, and overrides etc in one part apply equally to the other.

I think this was actually what you wanted, I just have to object to your
analysis.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Lilypond-book error messages

[David Kastrup]

bostjan k  writes:

> I've installed Lilypond on Windows 10. Converting ly files seems ok.
>
> When I run lilypond-book on the test file, I get the following:
>
> ---
>
> C:\Users\Bostjan\lily\test>lilypond-book --pdf tt2.lytex
> lilypond-book.py (GNU LilyPond) 2.18.2
> Reading tt2.lytex...
> Running `pdflatex' on file
> `c:\users\botjan~1\appdata\local\temp\tmp6cukep.tex' to detect default page
> settings.
>
> lilypond-book.py: warning: Unable to auto-detect default settings:
>
> lilypond-book.py: warning: cannot detect textwidth from LaTeX

Put LaTeX somewhere where lilypond-book can find it (adjust PATH ?).

> stderr_write
> encoded_write (sys.stderr, s)
>   File "C:\Program Files
> (x86)\LilyPond\usr\share\lilypond\current\python\lilylib.py", line 63, in
> encoded_write
> f.write (s.encode (f.encoding or 'utf-8', 'replace'))
> UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8' codec can't decode byte 0x9a in position 21:
> unexpected code byte
>
>
> -
>
>
> I've no idea what to do. 

Write your source file with an utf-8 capable editor.  LilyPond and
lilypond-book cannot deal with anything else.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Lilypond-book error messages

[bostjan k]

I've installed Lilypond on Windows 10. Converting ly files seems ok.

When I run lilypond-book on the test file, I get the following:

---

C:\Users\Bostjan\lily\test>lilypond-book --pdf tt2.lytex
lilypond-book.py (GNU LilyPond) 2.18.2
Reading tt2.lytex...
Running `pdflatex' on file
`c:\users\botjan~1\appdata\local\temp\tmp6cukep.tex' to detect default page
settings.

lilypond-book.py: warning: Unable to auto-detect default settings:

lilypond-book.py: warning: cannot detect textwidth from LaTeX
Dissecting...
Writing snippets...
All snippets are up to date...
Linking files...
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\LilyPond\usr\bin\lilypond-book.py", line 776,
in ?
main ()
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\LilyPond\usr\bin\lilypond-book.py", line 759,
in main
chunks = do_file (files[0])
  File "C:\Program Files (x86)\LilyPond\usr\bin\lilypond-book.py", line 621,
in do_file
progress (_ ("Compiling %s...") % output_filename)
  File "C:\Program Files
(x86)\LilyPond\usr\share\lilypond\current\python\lilylib.py", line 142, in
progress
print_logmessage ("PROGRESS", s, fullmessage, newline);
  File "C:\Program Files
(x86)\LilyPond\usr\share\lilypond\current\python\lilylib.py", line 128, in
print_logmessage
stderr_write (s + '\n')
  File "C:\Program Files
(x86)\LilyPond\usr\share\lilypond\current\python\lilylib.py", line 121, in
stderr_write
encoded_write (sys.stderr, s)
  File "C:\Program Files
(x86)\LilyPond\usr\share\lilypond\current\python\lilylib.py", line 63, in
encoded_write
f.write (s.encode (f.encoding or 'utf-8', 'replace'))
UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8' codec can't decode byte 0x9a in position 21:
unexpected code byte


-


I've no idea what to do. 



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Re: Beginner's questions about long repeats & MIDI files

[Mojca Miklavec]

On 15 October 2016 at 01:01, Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
>
>> 2.) Sometimes I have a very simple repeat pattern, say, part A repeats
>> four times.
>> The only difference is that the third time "c2." gets replaced by "c2
>> c4" somewhere in the middle due to an additional syllable in the
>> lyrics.
>>
>> a) What's the correct way to visually represent that? Drawing the full
>> c2. plus some additional c4 in parenthesis at the end? How do you type
>> it in? Or "c2(c4)" with a potentially dashed tie/slur/whatever that is
>> called.
>>
>> b) How does one get a correct MIDI file? I can imagine writing
>>
>> aa = {...}
>> ab = { c2. | }
>> ac = { c2 c4 | }
>> ad = {...}
>> aA = { \aa \ab \ad }
>> aB = { \aa \ac \ad}
>> melodyMIDI = { \aA \aA \aB \aA }
>>
>> and slightly different approach for engraving to fake proper visual
>> appearance, but I'm sure there must be a more straightforward way with
>> some "if this is the third time of repeating this segment, do
>> something different for this one single note".
>
>
> I'm not familiar enough with vocal scores to know the standard practice in
> for this circumstance.
>
> For instrumental music, one approach I've seen is to display both rhythms
> using parallel voices and add text to instruct the performer when to play
> each variation.
>
> I'm not sure how nicely this plays with lyrics.
>
> \version "2.19.15"
>
> aa = { g'2. 2. 2. }
> ab = { c'2. | }
> ac = { c'2 4 | }
> ad = { b'2. 2. }
>
> bothVariations = <<
> { <>^\markup { \column { "1st, " "2nd &" "4th X" } } \ab } \\
> { <>_"3rd X" \ac }
>>>

Thank you very much for the example. I compiled it, but the output
doesn't look too appealing to me.

But you gave me the idea how to do it with two voices. For the visual
part I decided to use something like the following:

<<
  {
2.~ |
2. |
  }
  {
s2. |
s2 \parenthesize f4 |
  }
>>

That is: misuse parallel voices, use as much skip as necessary and add
a note inside parenthesis. There is no need for an explicit
explanation of when that additional note is needed. If the lyrics
stands below the scores, it's clear which one needs an additional
syllable.

Mojca

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