Re: Intended use of the empty chord <> construct

[David Kastrup]

Trevor Bača  writes:

> I recently discovered the empty chord <> construct. From some initial
> tests, it looks like <> might solve a small handful of very difficult
> spanner-termination cases I've been wrestling with for years.
>
> Before I go further, I'd like to check my understanding of <> and how it
> works:
>
> [2. For the developers: is <> intended to remain a part of LilyPond
> distributions for the longterm, ie, on the order of years? I assume the
> answer is yes, but I want to check, given the low profile of the construct
> in the docs.]

It's not a special construct but just a chord without notes.  It might
be conceivable that at some point of time giving it a duration might get
a warning or complaint because in <>4 the duration is actually being
ignored.  Well, apart from setting the default duration.

> The summary in #3 seems to be what my tests are showing me. But given that
> <> appears, somehow, to format symbols at a just-future point beyond the
> current moment *while also NOT advancing musical time*, I want to make sure
> I'm not missing something obvious. No other LilyPond construct would appear
> to behave quite this same way.

s1*0 is pretty much the same but it messes with the current default
duration and that can lead to ugly surprises later on.  For example
because \addlyrics with lyrics all having a length of 0 is going to look
rather bad and people don't expect the default duration to have any
effects on \addlyrics content.  And it doesn't for non-zero lengths.

> musicA = {
> a'4 \startTrillSpan
> a' \stopTrillSpan
> }
>
> musicB = {
> b'4
> b'
> }
>
> \new Staff {
> \set Score.proportionalNotationDuration = #(ly:make-moment 1 12)
> \musicA
> \musicB
> }
>
> %%% END EXAMPLE #1 %%%

[...]

> However, the empty chord <> construct appears to allow for a fully semantic
> way of encoding exactly what I'm looking for:
>
> %%%  BEGIN EXAMPLE #3 %%%
>
> \version "2.19.80"
>
> musicA = {
> a'4 \startTrillSpan
> a'
> <> \stopTrillSpan
> }
>
> musicB = {
> b'4
> b'
> }
>
> \new Staff {
> \set Score.proportionalNotationDuration = #(ly:make-moment 1 12)
> \musicA
> \musicB
> }
>
> %%% END EXAMPLE #3 %%%
>
> (The output is the same as #2.)
>
> To me, this is like magic: the empty chord <> appears to afford the
> ability to say "here's a chunk of music of two As with a trill spanner
> covering both" by appealing to the notional understanding I introduced
> at the top of this mail: the empty chord functions as an
> 'anchor-yet-to-come' to which the trill's endpoint can attach **even
> without knowing what that upcoming note / rest / chord is going to
> be**.
>
> I hope somebody else finds this (admitted corner case of a use) as
> special as I do. And, hopefully, I'm not misusing the purpose of the
> <> construct in setting up externalized variables in this way.

Let me quote from the Notation Reference ("Chorded notes"):

   A chord acts merely as a container for its notes, its articulations
and other attached elements.  Consequently, a chord without notes inside
does not actually have a duration.  Any attached articulations will
happen at the same musical time as the next following note or chord and
be combined with them (for more complex possibilities of combining such
elements, see *note Simultaneous expressions::):

 \relative {
   \grace { g'8( a b }
   <> ) \p \< -. -\markup \italic "sempre staccato"
   \repeat unfold 4 { c4 e }  c1\f
 }

 [image]

-- 
David Kastrup

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Intended use of the empty chord <> construct

[Trevor Bača]

Hi,

I recently discovered the empty chord <> construct. From some initial
tests, it looks like <> might solve a small handful of very difficult
spanner-termination cases I've been wrestling with for years.

Before I go further, I'd like to check my understanding of <> and how it
works:


1. Is <> documented somewhere that I'm missing? There's a passing reference
at the bottom of 1.2.2 Writing rests

(concerning the positioning of text just prior to the start of multimeasure
rests). But a much more helpful bit is buried in the regression tests here:

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/input/regression/03/lily-45f9f512.ly

(That bit above was a real revelation for me.) Am I missing a full(er)
explanation of <> elsewhere in the docs?


[2. For the developers: is <> intended to remain a part of LilyPond
distributions for the longterm, ie, on the order of years? I assume the
answer is yes, but I want to check, given the low profile of the construct
in the docs.]


3. This is the important one: is it notionally correct to think of <> as
providing something like "*an 'anchor' (for articulations and spanner
endpoints) **on the next event to come** ... without knowing what that
event will be"*?


The summary in #3 seems to be what my tests are showing me. But given that
<> appears, somehow, to format symbols at a just-future point beyond the
current moment *while also NOT advancing musical time*, I want to make sure
I'm not missing something obvious. No other LilyPond construct would appear
to behave quite this same way.

The rest of this mail can be skipped (unless you're as interested in the
minutiae of spanner endpoints as I am).

* * *

Here's an example of one of the spanner-termination cases I mentioned at
the start of this mail.

Variables are great for externalizing chunks of music, like in example #1:


%%% BEGIN EXAMPLE #1 %%%

\version "2.19.80"

musicA = {
a'4 \startTrillSpan
a' \stopTrillSpan
}

musicB = {
b'4
b'
}

\new Staff {
\set Score.proportionalNotationDuration = #(ly:make-moment 1 12)
\musicA
\musicB
}

%%% END EXAMPLE #1 %%%

But note the endpoint of the trill. Due to a peculiarity of how LilyPond's
trill spanner works, music enclosed in \startTrillSpan and \stopTrillSpan
commands renders such that the trill spanner does *not* appear above all of
the music in question (the two As here). Rather, such music is rendered
with the trill spanner appearing above the all-but-last elements in the
music, as the output shows.

Though this particular behavior of the trill spanner has always seemed
deeply counterintuitive to me, in practice it's rarely a problem: just move
the \stopTrillSpan command down one note / rest / chord past where you want
it. (Though, of course, this leads precisely to the perennial problem of
what to do with spanners and especially hairpins that end *after the last
note* of a piece, a problem that the various to-barline implementations
seem designed to address.)

But how to do this when externalizing chunks of music in variables, as in
the example? The spanner in example #1 is too short.


Something like example #2 does the trick (and is syntactic). Though perhaps
a bit weird:

%%% BEGIN EXAMPLE #2 %%%

\version "2.19.80"

musicA = {
a'4 \startTrillSpan
a'
}

musicB = {
b'4 \stopTrillSpan
b'
}

\new Staff {
\set Score.proportionalNotationDuration = #(ly:make-moment 1 12)
\musicA
\musicB
}

%%% END EXAMPLE #2 %%%

The notational output in example #2 is what I'm looking for: the trill
spanner is now long enough.

But I can't be the only one who finds separating matching \startTrillSpan
and \stopTrillSpan commands *across variables* to be at least inelegant:
the (hoped for) meaning of the first variable should be something like "two
As with a trill spanner written above both of them." But that musical idea
seems impossible to encode as-is; it would seem that the second variable
has to be modified as shown above, to carry a non-semantic \stopTrillSpan
at its opening.

(I should hasten to add here that I understand that different users can
construe semanticity differently here: if you think of externalized
variables in LilyPond as straightforward cases of lexical substitution,
then separating matching commands across variable boundaries probably
doesn't look very weird.)

However, the empty chord <> construct appears to allow for a fully semantic
way of encoding exactly what I'm looking for:

%%%  BEGIN EXAMPLE #3 %%%

\version "2.19.80"

musicA = {
a'4 \startTrillSpan
a'
<> \stopTrillSpan
}

musicB = {
b'4
b'
}

\new Staff {
\set Score.proportionalNotationDuration = #(ly:make-moment 1 12)
\musicA
\musicB
}

%%% END EXAMPLE #3 %%%

(The output is the same as #2.)

To me, this is like magic: the empty chord <> appears to afford the ability
to say "here's a chunk of music of two As with a trill spanner covering
both" by appealing to the 

Re: Intervals enharmony question

[J Martin Rushton]

> Try .  Look how Frans
> Brüggen is not just working with his fingers but also with his cheeks
> (and deduce what he is doing with his breath) and mouth and recorder
> angle.

Thankyou



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[David Kastrup]

J Martin Rushton  writes:

> Have a listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcI8KV4ftCk and then
> tell me the recorder isn't a serious instrument.

Try .  Look how Frans
Brüggen is not just working with his fingers but also with his cheeks
(and deduce what he is doing with his breath) and mouth and recorder
angle.

This side track of the discussion was about the ubiquity of starting
school children on recorders.

> If you want _real_ agony, try listening to beginners on a violin - the
> cat's revenge.

But the remedy on a violin's pitch deviations is much more direct once
you become aware of them.  With regard to pitch correctness,
intermediate violin players tend to be less cruel than intermediate
recorder players.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[J Martin Rushton]

On 01/05/18 10:08, Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
>> On 1 May 2018, at 11:00, David Kastrup  wrote:
>>
>> Hans Åberg  writes:
>>
 On 1 May 2018, at 10:34, David Kastrup  wrote:

 Paid performers.  Recorder performances are a thing in primary school
 contexts already.
>>>
>>> The recorders used in schools are an idea from Carl Orff, with the
>>> idea that it is inexpensive. Therefore, one made a modern recorder
>>> tuning that should be simpler, but without the capacity of the Baroque
>>> tuning. But, as it turn out, it is a bad instrument to start playing
>>> when little, because the fingers motoric is not fully developed. So
>>> that got the recorder a bad reputation instead.
>>>
 I remember some performance from secondary school where a pair of
 prim girls were playing, I think, a duet on soprano recorder (I don't
 even think an alto was involved) from some booklet, with the
 intonation to be expected and everybody clapped politely.  The
 proceeded to WH blow out their mouthpieces, then played
 another piece.  WHEEE.  And another.  WHEEE.  I think they
 proceeded to murder the whole booklet.  WHEEE.  Probably not more
 than 20 pieces or so.  WHEE.
>>>
>>> Give thanks to Carl Orff for that.
>>
>> The recorders were merely the weapon.  The booklet contained the
>> ammunition and the idea of a cartridge clip is usually not to empty it
>> all in one go.
>>
>> At any rate, I am sure that Orff is in an afterlife where angelic little
>> beings are playing recorder to him.
> 
> Or devilish little creatures playing the soprano recorders used in schools.
> 
Have a listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcI8KV4ftCk and then
tell me the recorder isn't a serious instrument.  If you want _real_
agony, try listening to beginners on a violin - the cat's revenge.

A week or so ago I was at a concert by Red Priest featuring Piers Adams
on recorder.  Absolutely fabulous; you could hear a pin drop, even with
an audience roughly 50% schoolgirls.  It made me realise how little I've
learnt in half a century of playing.  I'll go and cry into my beer.



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Re: Setting up custom scale and accidentals

[Torsten Hämmerle]

Hi delboh,

Your custom accidental does not show up because it's not contained in the
current notation font (i.e. Emmentaler).
You can't access it in markup via \musicglyph "tsGlyph", so it won't be
printed in music.

*Solution:*
The standard stencil for accidentals (ly:accidental-interface::print) has to
be replaced by a custom stencil.

#(define (custom-accidental-stencil grob)
   (let ((alt (ly:grob-property grob 'alteration)))
 (if (equal? alt 1/12)
 (ly:stencil-scale tsGlyph 2.2 2.2)
 (ly:accidental-interface::print grob

This will just read the alt property, if it's 1/12, use your custom stencil
tsGlyph (scaled up a bit), in any other case it will call the standard
stencil.

After replacing the Accidental stencil by

\override Accidental.stencil = #custom-accidental-stencil

your custom stencil will show up:


 

HTH,
Torsten




--
Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html

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Setting up custom scale and accidentals

[Ebo H]

Dear all,


I am attempting to set up a custom scale that includes using custom accidental 
glyphs.

Based on the makam.ly example I am pretty much there and can 
display the existing accidental glyphs as needed.


The attached extract from my file shows my problem; I am able to create and 
display a custom accidental as markup but cannot define it within the custom 
scale to have it display automatically.

Any help or direction to documentation will be greatly appreciated.


Thanking you all in advance for the time and effort put in to helping use this 
amazing programme.


delboh
\version "2.19.81"

ts = 
\markup
\scale #'(-4 . -4)
\override #'(filled . #t) 
\path #0.01 
#'((moveto  0.000 -0.180)
   (lineto  0.142 -0.142)
   (lineto  0.142 -0.402)
   (lineto  0.156 -0.582)
   (lineto  0.270 -0.296)
   (lineto  0.170 -0.402)
   (lineto  0.170  0.174)
   (lineto  0.028  0.136)
   (lineto  0.028  0.346)
   (lineto  0.000  0.346)
   (lineto  0.000 -0.180)
   (moveto  0.028 -0.074)
   (lineto  0.028  0.048)
   (lineto  0.142  0.078)
   (lineto  0.142 -0.046)
   (lineto  0.028 -0.074))

\markup{
  \hspace #5
  \ts
}

%{

Define 1/12 alterations.

%}

#(define-public TWELFTHSHARP 1/12)
#(define-public SIXTHSHARP 1/6)
#(define-public QUARTERSHARP 1/4)

twelfthTonePitchNames = #`(
  (c. ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 NATURAL))
  (cts  . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 TWELFTHSHARP))  
  (css  . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 SIXTHSHARP))  
  (cqs  . ,(ly:make-pitch -1 0 QUARTERSHARP)))

%% set pitch names.
pitchnames = \twelfthTonePitchNames
#(ly:parser-set-note-names twelfthTonePitchNames)

%{

Define missing glyphs

%}

#(define tsGlyph
  (make-path-stencil
   '(moveto  0.000 -0.180
 lineto  0.142 -0.142
 lineto  0.142 -0.402
 lineto  0.156 -0.582
 lineto  0.270 -0.296
 lineto  0.170 -0.402
 lineto  0.170  0.174
 lineto  0.028  0.136
 lineto  0.028  0.346
 lineto  0.000  0.346
 lineto  0.000 -0.180
 moveto  0.028 -0.074
 lineto  0.028  0.048
 lineto  0.142  0.078
 lineto  0.142 -0.046
 lineto  0.028 -0.074
 closepath)
   0.01
   -2
   -2
   #t))

twelfthToneGlyphs = #`((1/4  . "accidentals.sharp.slashslash.stem")
		   (1/6  . "accidentals.natural.arrowup")
		   (1/12 . "tsGlyph ")
		   (0 . "accidentals.natural"))

\layout {
  \context {
\Score
\override KeySignature.glyph-name-alist = \twelfthToneGlyphs
\override Accidental.glyph-name-alist = \twelfthToneGlyphs
\override AccidentalCautionary.glyph-name-alist = \twelfthToneGlyphs
\override TrillPitchAccidental.glyph-name-alist = \twelfthToneGlyphs
\override AmbitusAccidental.glyph-name-alist = \twelfthToneGlyphs
  }
}

\score {
  \relative c' { 
\accidentalStyle dodecaphonic
c cts css cqs} 
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Re: FOMUS Lilypond Staccatissimo problem

[David Kastrup]

Jorge Eduardo Gomez Elizondo  writes:

> Hello!
>
> I am using Lilypond via SuperCollider and FOMUS, and have noticed a
> problem that I didn't have previously, in which a Staccatissimo,
> represented in FOMUS as [!] is translated into Lilypond as:
>
> ees'8~ \bRiii ees'32[ \bLii c'16.~] c'8~ \bRiii c'32[-. \bLiii \bRii
> ees'32-. \bLii des'16]-. d'8 c'4*-|* r8 \bar
>   "|." |
>
> where it should be:
>
>  ees'8~ \bRiii ees'32[ \bLii c'16.~] c'8~ \bRiii c'32[-. \bLiii \bRii
> ees'32-. \bLii des'16]-. d'8 c'4*-! *r8 \bar
>   "|." |
>
>
> the problem is:
>
> c'4*-|* should be c'4*-!
> *
>
> Anyone else out there still using FOMUS?
>
> I'm on Ubuntu Studio, Lilypond version 2.18.2, FOMUS 0.1.18-alpha,
>
> Many thanks in advance and best wishes!

-| is syntax before 2.17.25.  If FOMUS is creating older syntax, use
convert-ly for updating to current syntax.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: spacer rest *

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> … which of course it should, if only to say that such whitespace
>  is optional and not preferred. That would make it is clearer that
> c4 d e f
> 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8
> defines only 11 notes. The NR should be a reference for definitions
> like this, should it not.
>
> Similarly AFAICT, nowhere is it defined that you can write naked
> durations in lyrics, but that
> \skip 4 Hm!4 hm!4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
> won't work for Papageno because it only generates blanks.

Well, to be fair we showcase most lyrics via \addlyrics/\lyricsto where
4 4 4 4 would (if it would work at all) look a bit strange since the
actually used durations would not matter.

But I think it would be a reasonable feature to do the same for lyrics
syllables.  It will be rarely used but may be useful for vocalisations.

Again, it's mostly a matter of "nobody thought of that yet".

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: spacer rest *

[David Wright]

On Tue 01 May 2018 at 09:45:47 (+0200), Gianmaria Lari wrote:
> On 1 May 2018 at 09:39, David Kastrup  wrote:
> 
> > Gianmaria Lari  writes:
> >
> > > --- Exceptions ---
> > > Making "s8 8 8" acting differently than "c8 8 8" introduce an
> > > exception.
> >
> > Not "introduces" but "constitutes" since there was never a state with
> > valid equal behavior.
> >
> > > Exceptions make things a bit "more difficult" and in my opinion should
> > > be introduced carefully thinking if they worth it. As I told, I don't
> > > have the competence to say if this is the case, but I found useful
> > > point it out.
> >
> > One region where isolated durations are really useful is for drum tracks
> > consisting of only one drum "pitch" for longer stretches.  Those tend to
> > be written with notes and rests interspersed.  In that case it may be
> > helpful not to have to repeat the drum name.
> >
> 
> Sure.

Yes, that's the reason I thought it might have been introduced for,
hence "snare" in my example. I hadn't really thought of your use case
of using it for spacer "riffs" to place your annotations, but only
of rests where one might not expect riffs of silence.

> > It also might be worth noting that s8 8 8 cannot really be made equal in
> > behavior to \skip 8 8 8 (or other music function calls) so it is more
> > the question of where to draw the line rather than whether to draw a
> > line at all.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry I don't understand your last paragraph.

\skip is a different animal from s but that's sometimes disguised by
the fact that you can substitute one for the other in particular cases.
But because it's a command, it always expects a duration and that
duration does not participate at all in what you've called "propagation".

As this is LP, one can always confuse oneself by writing \skip 2
but where I've (rarely) had to use them, I write \skip2 .
Further confusion might occur where LP ignores the duration of the
\skip yet it still has to be written.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: spacer rest *

[David Wright]

On Tue 01 May 2018 at 09:15:31 (+0200), David Kastrup wrote:
> David Wright  writes:
> 
> > On Tue 01 May 2018 at 00:15:24 (+0200), David Kastrup wrote:
> >> David Wright  writes:
> >> 
> >> > AFAICT the important exception that was introduced with naked
> >> > durations was that c 4 notates a single note whereas c4 4 notates two.
> >> 
> >> There was no "exception" introduced.  c 4 always indicated a single note
> >> and c4 4 previously was invalid input.
> >
> > There's no guarantee that a new user, or a user who has only set eyes
> > on notation like c4, will make the correct interpretation of, say,
> > c 4 4 4 when they first encounter it. Without looking it up, there's
> > no way of knowing whether LP would treat it as three notes or four.
> 
> Without looking anything up, you cannot know the interpretation of anything.

LOL. I'm sorry, I have this vision of a child checking through the
meanings of the dozen words they learned this week.

>  At any rate, I objected to an "exception" being "introduced"
> since LilyPond continued behaving absolutely the same for any previously
> valid input.

Well, it helps to look at the sentence's context which you removed
when you originally quoted it, viz:

> The disadvantage is that introduce one exception and the exception has to
> be specified in the manual. But when you start learning something new, you
> concentrate on essentials things not on details/exceptions. Don't know if
> other people work the same but this is how does it works for me.

AFAICT the important exception that was introduced with naked
durations was that c 4 notates a single note whereas c4 4 notates two.
BTW although this point is explained in LM (page 23), I don't think it
has made it into NR yet.

So the context was "start learning something new": the learner's
experience rather than the power user's.

With this change in LP semantics, LM introduced this warning:

"… but remember that a bare pitch followed by a space and a bare duration will 
be interpreted
 as a single note. In other words, c4 a 8 8 would be interpreted as c4 a8 a8, 
not as c4 a4 a8 a8.
 Write instead c4 a4 8 8 ."

People learning LP 2.19.81 have to learn that every " 8 " is not the
same. If the " 8 " follows a naked pitch, it is treated differently.
People who learned with LP 2.18.2 did not have to learn that. I'm
perfectly happy if you prefer not to see that a new learner might view
it as an exception. After all, you're immersed in the language.

> Spaces never ever were relevant.  And we did not even
> start putting spaces into the documentation where they hadn't been
> before except in very particular circumstances (like drum notation using
> always the same drum).
> 
> > So if a new user thinks that a naked duration always specifies a note
> > they're likely to see the first duration in c 4 4 4 as an exception.
> 
> The first duration in c 4 4 4 is not a naked duration.  It's not the
> space which makes it "naked" but the lack of pitch to attach to.

Where does it actually say that?

> Let me quote the documentation on this:
> 
>Isolated durations – durations without a pitch – that occur within a
> music sequence will take their pitch from the preceding note or chord.
> 
>  \relative {
>\time 8/1
>c'' \longa \breve 1 2
>4 8 16 32 64 128 128
>  }
> 
>  [music image]
> 
>Isolated pitches – pitches without a duration – that occur within a
> music sequence will take their duration from the preceding note or
> chord.  If there is no preceding duration, then default for the note is
> always ‘4’, a quarter note.
> 
> Nowhere does this talk about spaces.

… which of course it should, if only to say that such whitespace
 is optional and not preferred. That would make it is clearer that
c4 d e f
8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8
defines only 11 notes. The NR should be a reference for definitions
like this, should it not.

Similarly AFAICT, nowhere is it defined that you can write naked
durations in lyrics, but that
\skip 4 Hm!4 hm!4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
won't work for Papageno because it only generates blanks.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: 1.4.2 Clickable examples

[Ben]

On 5/1/2018 11:27 AM, Freeman Gilmore wrote:

No
Clicking gives two options open and save  (and cancel)
Open does nothing.
Save then "open" give all the formatting information; or "open with" 
Lilypond the file open and closes in DOS window.
  (I have two Lilypond choices to "open with" one does nothing the 
other does the open and close stated above)


Thank you,
ƒg


On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 10:51 AM, Ben > wrote:


On 5/1/2018 10:45 AM, Freeman Gilmore wrote:

I have windows 10
Reference;
_Learning Manual v2.18.2   HTML_
__1.4.2 Clickable examples

Would some one please explain how to do this in detail?

I hace tried open, save, and open in the download file.
I have seen it flash open than close after it completed printing.
And depending on how I open it, I get all the formatting details.

Thank you,
ƒg



Hello!

So the clickable examples only applies to the HTML yes.

It downloads an .ly file with the code that results in the images,
for example.
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/learning/clickable-examples


Clicking that image (click here) will download/reveal the code for
what you're seeing in the example. You could also right click on
it and save link as, if you prefer manually. :)

Hope that helps!


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What browser are you using to load the HTML file?
It depends, yes, although your exact options may differ surely there 
must be an option to save/save as...something. No?


(see attached for Internet Explorer / Firefox default right click 
options, for example)...


Are you using an offline HTML viewer?



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Re: 1.4.2 Clickable examples

[Freeman Gilmore]

No
Clicking gives two options open and save  (and cancel)
Open does nothing.
Save then "open" give all the formatting information; or "open with"
Lilypond the file open and closes in DOS window.
  (I have two Lilypond choices to "open with" one does nothing the other
does the open and close stated above)

Thank you,
ƒg


On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 10:51 AM, Ben  wrote:

> On 5/1/2018 10:45 AM, Freeman Gilmore wrote:
>
> I have windows 10
> Reference;
> *Learning Manual v2.18.2   HTML*
>1.4.2 Clickable examples
>
> Would some one please explain how to do this in detail?
>
> I hace tried open, save, and open in the download file.
> I have seen it flash open than close after it completed printing.
> And depending on how I open it, I get all the formatting details.
>
> Thank you,
> ƒg
>
>
> Hello!
>
> So the clickable examples only applies to the HTML yes.
>
> It downloads an .ly file with the code that results in the images, for
> example.
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/learning/clickable-examples
>
> Clicking that image (click here) will download/reveal the code for what
> you're seeing in the example. You could also right click on it and save
> link as, if you prefer manually. :)
>
> Hope that helps!
>
>
> ___
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> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
>
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Re: FOMUS Lilypond Staccatissimo problem

[Carl Sorensen]

From: Jorge Eduardo Gomez Elizondo 
Date: Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 3:05 AM
To: 
Subject: FOMUS Lilypond Staccatissimo problem


the problem is:

c'4-| should be c'4-!

Anyone else out there still using FOMUS?

This is apparently a FOMUS problem, not a LilyPond problem.  There is no 
LilyPond code that reads FOMUS files; rather, FOMUS creates the LilyPond file 
according to the FOMUS documentation.

Regards,

Carl


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Re: 1.4.2 Clickable examples

[Ben]

On 5/1/2018 10:45 AM, Freeman Gilmore wrote:

I have windows 10
Reference;
_Learning Manual v2.18.2   HTML_
__1.4.2 Clickable examples

Would some one please explain how to do this in detail?

I hace tried open, save, and open in the download file.
I have seen it flash open than close after it completed printing.
And depending on how I open it, I get all the formatting details.

Thank you,
ƒg



Hello!

So the clickable examples only applies to the HTML yes.

It downloads an .ly file with the code that results in the images, for 
example.

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/learning/clickable-examples

Clicking that image (click here) will download/reveal the code for what 
you're seeing in the example. You could also right click on it and save 
link as, if you prefer manually. :)


Hope that helps!

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1.4.2 Clickable examples

[Freeman Gilmore]

I have windows 10
Reference;
*Learning Manual v2.18.2   HTML*
   1.4.2 Clickable examples

Would some one please explain how to do this in detail?

I hace tried open, save, and open in the download file.
I have seen it flash open than close after it completed printing.
And depending on how I open it, I get all the formatting details.

Thank you,
ƒg
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FOMUS Lilypond Staccatissimo problem

[Jorge Eduardo Gomez Elizondo]

Hello!

I am using Lilypond via SuperCollider and FOMUS, and have noticed a 
problem that I didn't have previously, in which a Staccatissimo, 
represented in FOMUS as [!] is translated into Lilypond as:


ees'8~ \bRiii ees'32[ \bLii c'16.~] c'8~ \bRiii c'32[-. \bLiii \bRii 
ees'32-. \bLii des'16]-. d'8 c'4*-|* r8 \bar

  "|." |

where it should be:

 ees'8~ \bRiii ees'32[ \bLii c'16.~] c'8~ \bRiii c'32[-. \bLiii \bRii 
ees'32-. \bLii des'16]-. d'8 c'4*-! *r8 \bar

  "|." |


the problem is:

c'4*-|* should be c'4*-!
*

Anyone else out there still using FOMUS?

I'm on Ubuntu Studio, Lilypond version 2.18.2, FOMUS 0.1.18-alpha,

Many thanks in advance and best wishes!

Jorge.



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Re: spacer rest *

[Br. Samuel Springuel]

On 5/1/18 3:15 AM, David Kastrup wrote:

Let me quote the documentation on this:

Isolated durations – durations without a pitch – that occur within a 
music sequence will take their pitch from the preceding note or

chord.

\relative { \time 8/1 c'' \longa \breve 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 128 }

[music image]

Isolated pitches – pitches without a duration – that occur within a 
music sequence will take their duration from the preceding note or 
chord.  If there is no preceding duration, then default for the note

is always ‘4’, a quarter note.

Nowhere does this talk about spaces.


That is where I think the potential confusion lies.  How are the phrases 
"durations without a

pitch" and "pitches without a duration" to be interpreted?  My guess is
that when a novice looks at `c 4 4 4` they would assume that
the `c` is a pitch without a duration unless they've been told somewhere
that the intervening space doesn't count.  At some point the
documentation must talk about spaces: when they count and when they 
don't.  In particular the fact that `c 4` and `c4` are equivalent should 
be made apparent.


The best the current documentation has on this is in the Learning Manual
(http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/learning/working-on-input-files) 
where it says this about whitespace:



Whitespace insensitive: it does not matter how many spaces (or tabs
or new lines) you add. ‘{ c4 d e }’ means the same thing as ‘{ c4
d e }’ and: { c4   d e   } Of course, the
previous example is hard to read. A good rule of thumb is to indent
code blocks with two spaces:

{ 
  c4 d e

}

However, whitespace is required to separate many
syntactical elements from others. In other words, whitespace can
always be added, but not always eliminated. Since missing whitespace
can give rise to strange errors, it is advisable to always insert
whitespace before and after every syntactic element, for example,
before and after every curly brace.


You'll note that in examples given here, the one duration that appears 
is never "separated" from its pitch by a space.  As a result it does 
nothing to clear up the ambiguity (or rather prevent it because this is 
Learning Manual material which the user should be familiar with before 
trying to decipher the Notation Reference material that David quoted).


I think it might be worthwhile to a) provide an example in the Learning 
Manual that demonstrates the equivalency of  `c 4` and `c4`; b) at the 
point in the NR quoted above, provide an explanation of what constitutes 
an "pitch without a duration" and a "duration without a pitch" possibly 
with a link back to the LM section on whitespace.

--
✝
Br. Samuel, OSB
St. Anselm’s Abbey
Washington, DC
(R. Padraic Springuel)

PAX ☧ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ

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Re: Another Figured Bass problem

[Robert Blackstone]

Hi Harm,

Thank you for this enormous collection of possibilities and code for displaying 
BC-figures.
I may not live long enough to put all of it in practice but for my present 
purpose it is more than sufficient.
On the topic of Figured Bass in LilyPond I still have some other desires, to be 
formulated in a new thread (after I have convinced myself that I won't find it 
somewhere in the documentation) 

Thanks again,

Best regards,

Robert


On 30 Apr 2018, at 23:09 , Thomas Morley  wrote:

> 2018-04-30 12:51 GMT+02:00 Torsten Hämmerle :
>> Hi Robert,
>> 
>> How about simply flipping the stacking direction?
>> 
>>   \override BassFigureAlignment.stacking-dir = #UP
>> 
>> That way, the bass figures will be piled up from bottom to top.
>> Caveat: the first figure entered will be the lowest.
>> 
>> 
>> <<
>>  { 4 4 4 4 4 4 }
>>  \figures {
>>\override BassFigureAlignment.stacking-dir = #UP
>><_!> <3+ 6> <4> <4 5> <3+> <_+>
>>  }
 
>> 
>> 
>> HTH,
>> Torsten
> 
> 
> I looked for a way not to change the input order, but still benefit
> from upwards stacking-dir.
> 
> Coming up with the code below.
> For test-cases I used some of our reg-tests in a modified manner.
> 
> figured-bass-continuation-center.ly looks even better, imho.
> figured-bass.ly is surely not meant to demonstrate real live input,
> though, I add it as well, demonstrating bracketing still works.
> 
> \version "2.19.81"
> 
> reverseEventChordsElements =
> #(define-music-function (mus)(ly:music?)
>  (music-map
>(lambda (m)
>  (if (music-is-of-type? m 'event-chord)
>  (let ((ev-chrd-elts (ly:music-property m 'elements)))
>(ly:music-set-property! m 'elements
>  (reverse
>(map
>  (lambda (e)
>(cond ((and (eq? #t (ly:music-property e 'bracket-start))
>(eq? #t (ly:music-property e 'bracket-stop)))
>   '())
>  ((eq? #t (ly:music-property e 'bracket-start))
>   (begin
> (ly:music-set-property! e 'bracket-start '())
> (ly:music-set-property! e 'bracket-stop #t)))
>  ((eq? #t (ly:music-property e 'bracket-stop))
>   (begin
> (ly:music-set-property! e 'bracket-stop '())
> (ly:music-set-property! e 'bracket-start #t
>e)
>  ev-chrd-elts)))
>m)
>  m))
>mus))
> 
> %%%
> %% EXAMPLES
> %%%
> 
> \paper { indent = 30 }
> 
> \layout {
>  \context {
>\FiguredBass
>\override BassFigureAlignment.stacking-dir = #UP
>  }
> }
> 
> %%%
> %% figured-bass-continuation-center.ly
> %%%
> 
> mI =
> \relative {
>  c'8 c  b b  a a  b b
>  c c  b b
> }
> 
> figI =
> \figuremode {
>  \set useBassFigureExtenders = ##t
>  \set figuredBassCenterContinuations = ##t
>  <6+ 4 3>4 <6 4 3> r
>  <6+ 4 3>4 <6 4 3> <4 3+> r
> }
> 
> <<
>  \new Staff
>\with { instrumentName = "default figures" }
>\mI
> 
>  \new FiguredBass
>\with { \revert BassFigureAlignment.stacking-dir }
>\figI
> 
>  \new Staff
>\with { instrumentName = "tweaked figures" }
>\mI
> 
>  \new FiguredBass
>\reverseEventChordsElements
>\figI
>>> 
> 
> %%%
> %% figured-bass.ly
> %%%
> 
> mII = {
>  \clef bass
>  c 4 c c c
>  c 4 c c c
> }
> 
> figII =
> \figuremode {
><3 [5 7]>
><3\+ [5/] 7/ [9 11]>
><3+ 5- 7!>
><3 _! 5 _- 7>
><3 _ 5 _ 7>
><3 6/ >
><3 6\\ >
><"V7" ["bla" 6] \markup{ \musicglyph "rests.2"} >
>  }
> 
> <<
>  \new Staff
>   \with { instrumentName = "default figures" }
>\mII
> 
>  \new FiguredBass
>\with { \revert BassFigureAlignment.stacking-dir }
>\figII
> 
>  \new Staff
>\with { instrumentName = "tweaked figures" }
>\mII
> 
>  \new FiguredBass
>\reverseEventChordsElements
>\figII
>>> 
> 
> Cheers,
>  Harm
> 
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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 May 2018, at 11:00, David Kastrup  wrote:
> 
> Hans Åberg  writes:
> 
>>> On 1 May 2018, at 10:34, David Kastrup  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Paid performers.  Recorder performances are a thing in primary school
>>> contexts already.
>> 
>> The recorders used in schools are an idea from Carl Orff, with the
>> idea that it is inexpensive. Therefore, one made a modern recorder
>> tuning that should be simpler, but without the capacity of the Baroque
>> tuning. But, as it turn out, it is a bad instrument to start playing
>> when little, because the fingers motoric is not fully developed. So
>> that got the recorder a bad reputation instead.
>> 
>>> I remember some performance from secondary school where a pair of
>>> prim girls were playing, I think, a duet on soprano recorder (I don't
>>> even think an alto was involved) from some booklet, with the
>>> intonation to be expected and everybody clapped politely.  The
>>> proceeded to WH blow out their mouthpieces, then played
>>> another piece.  WHEEE.  And another.  WHEEE.  I think they
>>> proceeded to murder the whole booklet.  WHEEE.  Probably not more
>>> than 20 pieces or so.  WHEE.
>> 
>> Give thanks to Carl Orff for that.
> 
> The recorders were merely the weapon.  The booklet contained the
> ammunition and the idea of a cartridge clip is usually not to empty it
> all in one go.
> 
> At any rate, I am sure that Orff is in an afterlife where angelic little
> beings are playing recorder to him.

Or devilish little creatures playing the soprano recorders used in schools.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[David Kastrup]

Hans Åberg  writes:

>> On 1 May 2018, at 10:34, David Kastrup  wrote:
>> 
>> Paid performers.  Recorder performances are a thing in primary school
>> contexts already.
>
> The recorders used in schools are an idea from Carl Orff, with the
> idea that it is inexpensive. Therefore, one made a modern recorder
> tuning that should be simpler, but without the capacity of the Baroque
> tuning. But, as it turn out, it is a bad instrument to start playing
> when little, because the fingers motoric is not fully developed. So
> that got the recorder a bad reputation instead.
>
>> I remember some performance from secondary school where a pair of
>> prim girls were playing, I think, a duet on soprano recorder (I don't
>> even think an alto was involved) from some booklet, with the
>> intonation to be expected and everybody clapped politely.  The
>> proceeded to WH blow out their mouthpieces, then played
>> another piece.  WHEEE.  And another.  WHEEE.  I think they
>> proceeded to murder the whole booklet.  WHEEE.  Probably not more
>> than 20 pieces or so.  WHEE.
>
> Give thanks to Carl Orff for that.

The recorders were merely the weapon.  The booklet contained the
ammunition and the idea of a cartridge clip is usually not to empty it
all in one go.

At any rate, I am sure that Orff is in an afterlife where angelic little
beings are playing recorder to him.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Making TextLength ignore some notes.

[David Sumbler]

Thank you for your generous reply.

I am surprised that you think that newcomers (or anybody else) find the
list unwelcoming.  I have always been amazed by the willingness of a
few list members to provide detailed replies, and have rarely read
anything that appeared to be unwelcoming.

I take your point that I myself am probably capable of answering some
of the simpler queries; this is something I have very occasionally done
and shall endeavour to do perhaps more frequently in the future.  But
as I receive digests rather than individual posts to the list, it is
often the case that the alacrity of other members has meant that the
question is answered even before I see it.  I did once try changing my
list settings to receive each separate post, but found it unmanageable:
even with the digest, there are often quite a number of emails in one
day: last Thursday there were 15 digests containing 67 separate
messages, though I admit that that was exceptional.

So once again, thanks again for your kind remarks; and thanks to you
and all the other list members who rarely, if ever, resort to RTFM, and
who never tell anybody to stop asking stupid questions - even in this
case, where my question really was pretty stupid!

David


On Sun, 2018-04-29 at 10:53 +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
> 
> 
> David Sumbler  writes:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I must apologise to the list members for wasting their time by
> > asking
> > my latest question (below).  I can only put it down to a "senior
> > moment", which is quite worrying, as such incidents do seem to be
> > getting more frequent.  Or perhaps it is a side-effect of the low-
> > dose
> > Amitriptylene I am taking for back-related leg pain.
> > 
> > When I came across the spacing problem I asked about, I was editing
> > the
> > layout of a 25-page score that I originally entered into Lilypond
> > only
> > 3 weeks ago.  I had a vague notion that I had once asked about a
> > similar problem on the list, and I spent some considerable time
> > searching the list archives but without finding anything relevant.
> >  I
> > also, of course, searched the snippets, also without finding
> > anything
> > helpful.  Hence I decided to ask the list members if they knew of a
> > solution.
> > 
> > This morning I woke up earlier than usual, and found that I knew
> > the
> > answer and why I had the feeling that I had visited this problem
> > once
> > before.  The solution is, apparently, one that I had worked out for
> > myself.  The embarrassing thing to admit is that it was at the very
> > point in the music that caused me a problem when adjusting the
> > layout.
> >  In other words, it was only about 3 weeks ago that I solved the
> > problem for myself in relation to the very bar that caused me to
> > post
> > yesterday.
> So now the other list members got to see a summarized solution.
> 
> Looks like a whole lot less time waste than average on the user
> and/or
> bug list where we frequently go through the pattern of "but something
> on
> the Internet says different", partially including genuine
> documentation
> pertaining to different version, countered by pointing to prominent
> parts of the pertinent manual, followed by "then your search engine
> optimization strategies suck, it's all your fault, and you should be
> ashamed" for some fuzzy value of "you" apparently not including the
> original poster himself.
> 
> And of course, after this has repeated a few hundred times, newcomers
> complain about the list being unwelcoming because of a marked lack of
> enthusiasm.  A good degree of my work is invested in squashing
> questions
> before they arise which I tend to be more graceful at than answering
> them.  Documentation work is essential but only somewhat effective
> since
> many questions are often already answered in some reasonably useful
> manner in the documentation and of course it is additionally
> frustrating
> for the documentation writer to see that work go unnoticed.  Making
> LilyPond simpler to work with, if it can be achieved, usually offers
> better payoff, but a lot more people are well qualified to improving
> the
> documentation or, short of that, answering questions in a reasonably
> nice manner on the list.
> 
> What I wanted to say: you're good.  Like, really good.  Answer one of
> the more obvious questions, and you're probably offsetting five
> questions of yours with regard to causing fatigue to others.

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 May 2018, at 10:34, David Kastrup  wrote:
> 
> Hans Åberg  writes:
> 
>>> On 1 May 2018, at 00:42, J Martin Rushton
>> 
>>> For a lot of earlier music it can be difficult to know if "flauto" is a
>>> flauto dolce (sweet flute - recorder) or a flauto transvero (sp?).
> 
> More like flauto traverso.  The terminal "o" makes obvious that we are
> talking about Italian rather than Latin, and "trans" did not retain all
> of its letters there.
> 
>> It was a claim about J.S. Bach, who seemed to favor more expressive
>> instruments. But performers of recorders are nowadays good.
> 
> Paid performers.  Recorder performances are a thing in primary school
> contexts already.

The recorders used in schools are an idea from Carl Orff, with the idea that it 
is inexpensive. Therefore, one made a modern recorder tuning that should be 
simpler, but without the capacity of the Baroque tuning. But, as it turn out, 
it is a bad instrument to start playing when little, because the fingers 
motoric is not fully developed. So that got the recorder a bad reputation 
instead.

> I remember some performance from secondary school where a pair of prim
> girls were playing, I think, a duet on soprano recorder (I don't even
> think an alto was involved) from some booklet, with the intonation to be
> expected and everybody clapped politely.  The proceeded to WH
> blow out their mouthpieces, then played another piece.  WHEEE.  And
> another.  WHEEE.  I think they proceeded to murder the whole
> booklet.  WHEEE.  Probably not more than 20 pieces or so.  WHEE.

Give thanks to Carl Orff for that.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 May 2018, at 09:23, Malte Meyn  wrote:
> 
> Am 30.04.2018 um 22:11 schrieb Hans Åberg:
>>> On 30 Apr 2018, at 21:47, Malte Meyn  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Am 30.04.2018 um 21:32 schrieb Hans Åberg:
 One has to adapt the pitch on every note played, and the reference is 
 typically the string section, which in turn is tuned in Pythagorean,
>>> 
>>> Many string players tune their perfect fifths a bit small so that they’re 
>>> near to equal temperament (700 ct) or even smaller instead of just (702 ct).
>> So how do they tune their violins?
> 
> Tune a fifth perfectly just and then make it a little bit smaller. This of 
> course needs experience so that it’s only 2 ct smaller.

But they still bow when tuning, and not using a chromatic tuner.

>> And why would an orchestra do this: it increases the beats in the chords.
> 
> It increases beats only in the fifths of open strings. All other fifths and 
> other intervals in general can be adjusted by the players. And it’s nicer to 
> have a 400 ct third C–E than 408 ct as a starting point for such adjustments.

If they do not play the retuned fifths harmonically that might be OK in 
harmony, but in melody, Pythagorean tuning sounds better to me than E12.

 but can adapt into 5-limit Just Intonation if the music played follows the 
 Traditional Harmony rules.
>>> 
>>> They could, yes. But I think that most intonation in choir and orchestra is 
>>> not just intonation but more or less an approximation; for example leading 
>>> notes are often played higher than just because they have more of the 
>>> leading character then. And just intonation has other problems that make it 
>>> impractical.
>> It is adaptive JI: If pivoting the chord sequence C F Dm G C, it slips a 
>> syntonic comma. So the orchestra must slide the pitch somewhere. Sounds 
>> terrible on music like organs, though.
> 
> That’s one of the problems I had in mind.

Some synth software has adaptive tuning as choice, for example, MainStage, so 
one can check what it sounds like on an organ.

> There are other reasons why just intonation, even adaptive JI isn’t really an 
> option and is not what orchestras use to play:

There is no problem for an orchestra, though. Some measurements suggest that 
when performing twelve tone music, they will actually slip into something like 
Pythagorean tuning. It does not matter, though: if there is no harmony, pithces 
can be chosen quite freely.

> for example, enharmonic equivalents in modulation (like  =  ais>) cannot really be intonated perfectly just.

Some measurements I made suggest they just play the stacked thirds which can be 
adjusted for, that is 5-limit JI. So if you do not spell it out correctly, they 
will play the stacked thirds instead.

 That becomes more difficult in distant keys.
>>> 
>>> Why should it? Just intonation works in every key.
>> Because there is no reference to the Pythagorean notes.
> 
> I’m not sure what you’re talking about here: What are these Pythagorean 
> notes? Pythagorean tuning means using only perfect fifths, that’s not just 
> intonation.

The string section open strings. There seems to be no other absolute pitch 
references in an orchestra.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[David Kastrup]

Hans Åberg  writes:

>> On 1 May 2018, at 00:42, J Martin Rushton
>
>> For a lot of earlier music it can be difficult to know if "flauto" is a
>> flauto dolce (sweet flute - recorder) or a flauto transvero (sp?).

More like flauto traverso.  The terminal "o" makes obvious that we are
talking about Italian rather than Latin, and "trans" did not retain all
of its letters there.

> It was a claim about J.S. Bach, who seemed to favor more expressive
> instruments. But performers of recorders are nowadays good.

Paid performers.  Recorder performances are a thing in primary school
contexts already.

I remember some performance from secondary school where a pair of prim
girls were playing, I think, a duet on soprano recorder (I don't even
think an alto was involved) from some booklet, with the intonation to be
expected and everybody clapped politely.  The proceeded to WH
blow out their mouthpieces, then played another piece.  WHEEE.  And
another.  WHEEE.  I think they proceeded to murder the whole
booklet.  WHEEE.  Probably not more than 20 pieces or so.  WHEE.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 May 2018, at 00:42, J Martin Rushton  
> wrote:
> 
> On 30/04/18 22:14, Hans Åberg wrote:
>> 
>>> On 30 Apr 2018, at 22:50, David Kastrup  wrote:
>>> 
 Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison,
 unlike strings then. It is mentioned in Blatter's book on
 orchestration.
>>> 
>>> I think recorders are quite worse in that respect.
>> 
>> Recorders cannot adjust the pitch independently of dynamics, but a performer 
>> said he tries to adjust for beats. Incidentally, J.S. Bach wrote for flutes 
>> and not recorders, and at home he had a clavichord, with after key touch 
>> pitch bend.
>> 
> If you use alternative fingerings on the recorder you can subtly change
> the pitch, which combined with a breath adjustment in the other way
> results in a dynamic.  For instance G can be lowered by using the ring
> or little finger of the right hand, then the breath is increased to come
> back to pitch resulting in a louder note.  In the other direction a
> leaky fingering will raise the pitch, though I must admit I've never
> mastered that technique without introducing the instability that can
> lead to a squeal.
> 
> For a lot of earlier music it can be difficult to know if "flauto" is a
> flauto dolce (sweet flute - recorder) or a flauto transvero (sp?).  It
> mainly seems to depend upon the modern speaker, regardless of the
> ancient composer! ;-)

It was a claim about J.S. Bach, who seemed to favor more expressive 
instruments. But performers of recorders are nowadays good.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 May 2018, at 06:27, Shane Brandes  wrote:
> 
> Then there is always "what is more out of tune than two flutes? One flute"

The pitches are spaced quite unevenly if measured electronically, and the scale 
will stretch moving upwards, so that has to be mastered.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 May 2018, at 05:34, Paul Scott  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:27:10PM +0200, Hans Åberg wrote:
>> 
>>> On 30 Apr 2018, at 22:23, Torsten Hämmerle  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hans Åberg-2 wrote
 I play the flute, and I checked with one of my teachers who sits on one of
 the operas here.
>>> 
>>> Hi Hans,
>>> 
>>> It's funny that you mention the flute of all instruments. It reminds me of
>>> the old joke
>>> "How do you get two flute players to play in unison?" - - - "Shoot one!"
>>> 
>>> No offence meant, I just couldn't resist :)
>> 
>> Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison, unlike 
>> strings then. It is mentioned in Blatter's book on orchestration.
> 
> I've only heard this joke about piccolo players where the tuning is much more
> difficult.

James Galway said in his book that it is a tricky instrument, requiring a lot 
of practise.



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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 May 2018, at 04:53, Vaughan McAlley  wrote:
> 
> On 1 May 2018 at 06:27, Hans Åberg  wrote:
> 
>> Flutes have a very definite pitch, making it hard to play in unison, unlike 
>> strings then. It is mentioned in Blatter's book on orchestration.
> 
> Flutes can adjust their pitch enough to tune well. I'm mainly a singer, but 
> when I play flute (my first instrument) I approach pitching like a singer, 
> and I rarely have tuning issues.

I also think that the flute is quite close to singing in terms of 
expressibility.

> But flute-wise, this is a pretty advanced technique.

I trained pitch by holding on certain notes and check against a tuner, 
originally a teacher, but then an electronic one.

> And flute players have to spend a lot of time practicing the semiquavers that 
> composers so love to give them :-)

The flute is easy if practising a lot. :-)

> First & second flute in a professional orchestra should be able to play a 
> unison passage just fine. I have sung in the Bach St John Passion a number of 
> times, and rarely hear problems with Ich folge dir gleichfalls, and that's 
> using baroque flutes…

It maybe be easier with those, having a softer sound.

> One of the major features of Boehm's (ie the modern) flute is that tuning (in 
> equal temperament) is more consistent. So maybe less thought is put into 
> tuning by players.

The pitches are quite uneven if measured electronically. In addition, the scale 
was not originally adjusted when the tuning rose to about 440 Hz; this is done 
in Cooper flutes.

> (Good recorder players have all sorts of tuning tricks, I believe)

Another post mentioned some.



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Re: spacer rest *

[David Kastrup]

Gianmaria Lari  writes:

> Absolutely! And the problem is not really when "you see". It's when
> "you write". A learnear like me, after discovering the syntax "c4 4 4" will
> use with no problem like this:
>
> d4 c 4 4
>
>
> discovering that it engraves
>
> d4 c4 c4
>
>
> But starting from the moment that you say that  pitches and durations can
> be separated by a space I don't see any way to prevent this thing. But does
> human would ever separate pitch from duration and write "c 4 d 4 e 8"?

Spaces are not relevant anywhere in LilyPond except where whole words
have to be separated.

> If not, maybe we could output some sort of warning when the code
>  contains spaces between pitch and duration?

No, no, no, no, no.  Absolutely not.  Spaces are not relevant.  They are
not converted into tokens and thus don't partipate in grammar, like
comments.  It would be complete and utter madness to tamper with that.

If you want anybody to warn about that, talk to the Frescobaldi guys:
things like trying to heed conventions are not the business of LilyPond
but rather of those responsible for the creation of code or responsible
for helping to create code.

And I'd consider it a bad idea even for them.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: spacer rest *

[Gianmaria Lari]

On 1 May 2018 at 09:39, David Kastrup  wrote:

> Gianmaria Lari  writes:
>
> > --- Exceptions ---
> > Making "s8 8 8" acting differently than "c8 8 8" introduce an
> > exception.
>
> Not "introduces" but "constitutes" since there was never a state with
> valid equal behavior.
>
> > Exceptions make things a bit "more difficult" and in my opinion should
> > be introduced carefully thinking if they worth it. As I told, I don't
> > have the competence to say if this is the case, but I found useful
> > point it out.
>
> One region where isolated durations are really useful is for drum tracks
> consisting of only one drum "pitch" for longer stretches.  Those tend to
> be written with notes and rests interspersed.  In that case it may be
> helpful not to have to repeat the drum name.
>

Sure.


> It also might be worth noting that s8 8 8 cannot really be made equal in
> behavior to \skip 8 8 8 (or other music function calls) so it is more
> the question of where to draw the line rather than whether to draw a
> line at all.


I'm sorry I don't understand your last paragraph.
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Re: spacer rest *

[Gianmaria Lari]

On 1 May 2018 at 05:32, David Wright  wrote:

> On Tue 01 May 2018 at 00:15:24 (+0200), David Kastrup wrote:
> > David Wright  writes:
> >
> > > AFAICT the important exception that was introduced with naked
> > > durations was that c 4 notates a single note whereas c4 4 notates two.
> >
> > There was no "exception" introduced.  c 4 always indicated a single note
> > and c4 4 previously was invalid input.
>
> There's no guarantee that a new user, or a user who has only set eyes
> on notation like c4, will make the correct interpretation of, say,
> c 4 4 4 when they first encounter it. Without looking it up, there's
> no way of knowing whether LP would treat it as three notes or four.
>
> So if a new user thinks that a naked duration always specifies a note
> they're likely to see the first duration in c 4 4 4 as an exception.
> The ambiguity didn't arise before as there was no possibility of
> seeing such a string (without throwing an error).
>
> Of course it wouldn't look like an exception to you or anyone who's
> already familiar enough with LP syntax.


Absolutely! And the problem is not really when "you see". It's when
"you write". A learnear like me, after discovering the syntax "c4 4 4" will
use with no problem like this:

d4 c 4 4


discovering that it engraves

d4 c4 c4


But starting from the moment that you say that  pitches and durations can
be separated by a space I don't see any way to prevent this thing. But does
human would ever separate pitch from duration and write "c 4 d 4 e 8"? If
not, maybe we could output some sort of warning when the code contains
spaces between pitch and duration?


> But the OP's doubts concerned
> learners and that's why my views diverge from theirs: I would prefer
> a decision (concerning durations applying only to pitches) based on
> power users rather than learners.
>

Yes, I found this a perfectly reasonable choice! But I have no idea if it
is correct :)

g.
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Re: spacer rest *

[David Kastrup]

Gianmaria Lari  writes:

> --- Exceptions ---
> Making "s8 8 8" acting differently than "c8 8 8" introduce an
> exception.

Not "introduces" but "constitutes" since there was never a state with
valid equal behavior.

> Exceptions make things a bit "more difficult" and in my opinion should
> be introduced carefully thinking if they worth it. As I told, I don't
> have the competence to say if this is the case, but I found useful
> point it out.

One region where isolated durations are really useful is for drum tracks
consisting of only one drum "pitch" for longer stretches.  Those tend to
be written with notes and rests interspersed.  In that case it may be
helpful not to have to repeat the drum name.

It also might be worth noting that s8 8 8 cannot really be made equal in
behavior to \skip 8 8 8 (or other music function calls) so it is more
the question of where to draw the line rather than whether to draw a
line at all.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: spacer rest *

[Gianmaria Lari]

On 1 May 2018 at 00:09, David Wright  wrote:

> On Fri 27 Apr 2018 at 22:56:31 (+0200), Gianmaria Lari wrote:
> > On 27 April 2018 at 15:44, David Wright 
> wrote:
> >
> > > [...]
> > > Well, I don't know how the decision was arrived at, but my own view is
> > > that it's the correct one. The duration-only notation is aimed at
> > > people writing rhythms, and they write them for instruments that play
> > > notes (and pseudonotes like snare above). They don't compose rythmic
> > > riffs for rests and spacers.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, I understand the advantage for people writing rhythms.
> >
> > On 27 April 2018 at 15:45, Simon Albrecht 
> wrote:
> >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > Even if David K. says that could be changed, I find the current
> behaviour
> > > pretty clear and sensible from my experience.
> > >
> >
> > Yes, the behavior is definitely very clear. And when you know it, it also
> > easy!
> >
> > The disadvantage is that introduce one exception and the exception has to
> > be specified in the manual. But when you start learning something new,
> you
> > concentrate on essentials things not on details/exceptions. Don't know if
> > other people work the same but this is how does it works for me.
>
> AFAICT the important exception that was introduced with naked
> durations was that c 4 notates a single note whereas c4 4 notates two.
> BTW although this point is explained in LM (page 23), I don't think it
> has made it into NR yet.
>
> Thank goodness that my own canonical style is c4 d8 e16 etc and not
> c 4 d 8 e 16 which makes erroneous naked durations harder to spot in
> the source. As a singer, naked pitches like c4 d e are the norm
> (ie melody), whereas naked durations c4 2. 8 are of more limited
> usefulness.
>
> > I'm not saying exceptions should be banned but introducing an exception
> > make things a bit "more difficult" and this have to be considered. I'm
> > speaking for me and in general terms. I have no idea if, in this specific
> > case, the advantages of this behaviour are greater than the
> disadvantages.
>
> In your own OP, I couldn't quite understand why you would prefer s8 8 8 8
> over s8 s s s or s4. s8 unless you were machine-generating a variable
> constructed with spacers from a variable containing music.
>
>
There are different things we are discussing. I try to talk about that
separately.

--- s8 8 8 8 versus s8 s s s 
1) I normally use naked duration with notes. So it was normal for me to use
it also with spacer rest.

2) If you have something like s8 4 16 8 8 4 it's a bit more concise (and
clear to me) than s8 s4 s16 s8 s s4

--- Exceptions ---
Making "s8 8 8" acting differently than "c8 8 8" introduce an exception.
Exceptions make things a bit "more difficult" and in my opinion should be
introduced carefully thinking if they worth it. As I told, I don't have the
competence to say if this is the case, but I found useful point it out.
Ciao, g.
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Re: Intervals enharmony question

[Malte Meyn]

Am 30.04.2018 um 22:11 schrieb Hans Åberg:




On 30 Apr 2018, at 21:47, Malte Meyn  wrote:

Am 30.04.2018 um 21:32 schrieb Hans Åberg:

One has to adapt the pitch on every note played, and the reference is typically 
the string section, which in turn is tuned in Pythagorean,


Many string players tune their perfect fifths a bit small so that they’re near 
to equal temperament (700 ct) or even smaller instead of just (702 ct).


So how do they tune their violins?


Tune a fifth perfectly just and then make it a little bit smaller. This 
of course needs experience so that it’s only 2 ct smaller.



And why would an orchestra do this: it increases the beats in the chords.


It increases beats only in the fifths of open strings. All other fifths 
and other intervals in general can be adjusted by the players. And it’s 
nicer to have a 400 ct third C–E than 408 ct as a starting point for 
such adjustments.



but can adapt into 5-limit Just Intonation if the music played follows the 
Traditional Harmony rules.


They could, yes. But I think that most intonation in choir and orchestra is not 
just intonation but more or less an approximation; for example leading notes 
are often played higher than just because they have more of the leading 
character then. And just intonation has other problems that make it impractical.


It is adaptive JI: If pivoting the chord sequence C F Dm G C, it slips a 
syntonic comma. So the orchestra must slide the pitch somewhere. Sounds 
terrible on music like organs, though.


That’s one of the problems I had in mind. There are other reasons why 
just intonation, even adaptive JI isn’t really an option and is not what 
orchestras use to play: for example, enharmonic equivalents in 
modulation (like  = ) cannot really be intonated 
perfectly just.



That becomes more difficult in distant keys.


Why should it? Just intonation works in every key.


Because there is no reference to the Pythagorean notes.


I’m not sure what you’re talking about here: What are these Pythagorean 
notes? Pythagorean tuning means using only perfect fifths, that’s not 
just intonation.


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Re: spacer rest *

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> On Tue 01 May 2018 at 00:15:24 (+0200), David Kastrup wrote:
>> David Wright  writes:
>> 
>> > AFAICT the important exception that was introduced with naked
>> > durations was that c 4 notates a single note whereas c4 4 notates two.
>> 
>> There was no "exception" introduced.  c 4 always indicated a single note
>> and c4 4 previously was invalid input.
>
> There's no guarantee that a new user, or a user who has only set eyes
> on notation like c4, will make the correct interpretation of, say,
> c 4 4 4 when they first encounter it. Without looking it up, there's
> no way of knowing whether LP would treat it as three notes or four.

Without looking anything up, you cannot know the interpretation of
anything.  At any rate, I objected to an "exception" being "introduced"
since LilyPond continued behaving absolutely the same for any previously
valid input.  Spaces never ever were relevant.  And we did not even
start putting spaces into the documentation where they hadn't been
before except in very particular circumstances (like drum notation using
always the same drum).

> So if a new user thinks that a naked duration always specifies a note
> they're likely to see the first duration in c 4 4 4 as an exception.

The first duration in c 4 4 4 is not a naked duration.  It's not the
space which makes it "naked" but the lack of pitch to attach to.

Let me quote the documentation on this:

   Isolated durations – durations without a pitch – that occur within a
music sequence will take their pitch from the preceding note or chord.

 \relative {
   \time 8/1
   c'' \longa \breve 1 2
   4 8 16 32 64 128 128
 }

 [music image]

   Isolated pitches – pitches without a duration – that occur within a
music sequence will take their duration from the preceding note or
chord.  If there is no preceding duration, then default for the note is
always ‘4’, a quarter note.

Nowhere does this talk about spaces.

-- 
David Kastrup

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