Re: Consecutive trills
This is interesting. When transcribing Balkan music, I found that the musicians often end the trill in a timed manner, like suggested by this notation. Of course, ornaments are up to the musician to decide, but it helps a consistent result. > On 29 Apr 2022, at 22:02, Kira Garvie wrote: > > It is true that Bach used the signs interchangeably, but if a trill > terminates before the note itself terminates in his music, it indicates to > stop trilling at that point and continue holding the note. At least that’s > how we interpret his organ music notations! > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 3:54 PM Mark Stephen Mrotek > wrote: > Hans, > > Without getting into detail, Arnold Dolmetsch contends that > "They (the various indications of a trillo) have no particular shade of > meaning, being only the consequence of his (Bach's) lack of system." > The Interpretation of the Music of the 17th and 18th Centuries, p. 169. > > Mark > > -Original Message- > From: lilypond-user > [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Hans > Åberg > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 11:33 AM > To: Kieren MacMillan > Cc: Martín Rincón Botero ; Lilypond-User > Mailing List > Subject: Re: Consecutive trills > > > > On 29 Apr 2022, at 19:06, Kieren MacMillan > > wrote: > > > >>> As far as I know that's not a notation rule, but I agree that it makes > >>> more sense to use the trill + wavy line for tied notes. > >> I haven't seen "tr" plus chevron on a single untied note > > > > When it’s a chain of trills — some tied, others single — I find the > > consistency [of using the wavy line on *all* trills, and not just the tied > > notes] is appreciated by conductors and performers. > > In BWV 1067, first movement, there is for the flute a long note with several > ties with a trill span ending somewhere in the middle, indicating the length > of the trill followed by untrilled part. I do not know if Bach himself write > it that way, but I found it useful in Balkan music, where it is common to not > have an alteration on the last 16th of say a trilled dotted 8th note. I > decided to write that with an 8th having a "tr" tied to a following 16th, > otherwise those not accustomed with the style would not know how to play it > (and I find it is hard to remember). Trilled notes can be syncopated in > Balkan music, and then it may be necessary to use a trill span. Hindemith, > "Elementary Training", says that on short notes, a trill can have only one > alteration. This occurs in Balkan music, but I decided to write a prall sign > as it is more compact. > > > >
Re: Consecutive trills
It is true that Bach used the signs interchangeably, but if a trill terminates before the note itself terminates in his music, it indicates to stop trilling at that point and continue holding the note. At least that’s how we interpret his organ music notations! On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 3:54 PM Mark Stephen Mrotek wrote: > Hans, > > Without getting into detail, Arnold Dolmetsch contends that > "They (the various indications of a trillo) have no particular shade of > meaning, being only the consequence of his (Bach's) lack of system." > The Interpretation of the Music of the 17th and 18th Centuries, p. 169. > > Mark > > -Original Message- > From: lilypond-user [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark= > ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Hans Åberg > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 11:33 AM > To: Kieren MacMillan > Cc: Martín Rincón Botero ; Lilypond-User > Mailing List > Subject: Re: Consecutive trills > > > > On 29 Apr 2022, at 19:06, Kieren MacMillan > wrote: > > > >>> As far as I know that's not a notation rule, but I agree that it makes > more sense to use the trill + wavy line for tied notes. > >> I haven't seen "tr" plus chevron on a single untied note > > > > When it’s a chain of trills — some tied, others single — I find the > consistency [of using the wavy line on *all* trills, and not just the tied > notes] is appreciated by conductors and performers. > > In BWV 1067, first movement, there is for the flute a long note with > several ties with a trill span ending somewhere in the middle, indicating > the length of the trill followed by untrilled part. I do not know if Bach > himself write it that way, but I found it useful in Balkan music, where it > is common to not have an alteration on the last 16th of say a trilled > dotted 8th note. I decided to write that with an 8th having a "tr" tied to > a following 16th, otherwise those not accustomed with the style would not > know how to play it (and I find it is hard to remember). Trilled notes can > be syncopated in Balkan music, and then it may be necessary to use a trill > span. Hindemith, "Elementary Training", says that on short notes, a trill > can have only one alteration. This occurs in Balkan music, but I decided to > write a prall sign as it is more compact. > > > > >
RE: Consecutive trills
Hans, Without getting into detail, Arnold Dolmetsch contends that "They (the various indications of a trillo) have no particular shade of meaning, being only the consequence of his (Bach's) lack of system." The Interpretation of the Music of the 17th and 18th Centuries, p. 169. Mark -Original Message- From: lilypond-user [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Hans Åberg Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 11:33 AM To: Kieren MacMillan Cc: Martín Rincón Botero ; Lilypond-User Mailing List Subject: Re: Consecutive trills > On 29 Apr 2022, at 19:06, Kieren MacMillan > wrote: > >>> As far as I know that's not a notation rule, but I agree that it makes more >>> sense to use the trill + wavy line for tied notes. >> I haven't seen "tr" plus chevron on a single untied note > > When it’s a chain of trills — some tied, others single — I find the > consistency [of using the wavy line on *all* trills, and not just the tied > notes] is appreciated by conductors and performers. In BWV 1067, first movement, there is for the flute a long note with several ties with a trill span ending somewhere in the middle, indicating the length of the trill followed by untrilled part. I do not know if Bach himself write it that way, but I found it useful in Balkan music, where it is common to not have an alteration on the last 16th of say a trilled dotted 8th note. I decided to write that with an 8th having a "tr" tied to a following 16th, otherwise those not accustomed with the style would not know how to play it (and I find it is hard to remember). Trilled notes can be syncopated in Balkan music, and then it may be necessary to use a trill span. Hindemith, "Elementary Training", says that on short notes, a trill can have only one alteration. This occurs in Balkan music, but I decided to write a prall sign as it is more compact.
Re: Consecutive trills
> On 29 Apr 2022, at 19:06, Kieren MacMillan > wrote: > >>> As far as I know that's not a notation rule, but I agree that it makes more >>> sense to use the trill + wavy line for tied notes. >> I haven't seen "tr" plus chevron on a single untied note > > When it’s a chain of trills — some tied, others single — I find the > consistency [of using the wavy line on *all* trills, and not just the tied > notes] is appreciated by conductors and performers. In BWV 1067, first movement, there is for the flute a long note with several ties with a trill span ending somewhere in the middle, indicating the length of the trill followed by untrilled part. I do not know if Bach himself write it that way, but I found it useful in Balkan music, where it is common to not have an alteration on the last 16th of say a trilled dotted 8th note. I decided to write that with an 8th having a "tr" tied to a following 16th, otherwise those not accustomed with the style would not know how to play it (and I find it is hard to remember). Trilled notes can be syncopated in Balkan music, and then it may be necessary to use a trill span. Hindemith, "Elementary Training", says that on short notes, a trill can have only one alteration. This occurs in Balkan music, but I decided to write a prall sign as it is more compact.
Re: Very large score (for benchmarking purposes)
On Wed, 2022-04-20 at 01:19 +0200, Jean Abou Samra wrote: > Hi there, > > By any chance, would anybody have a very large score to hand (say, > something taking more than two minutes to compile at least), preferably > running under current versions, or under not too old versions? In > particular, I am testing a change that is mostly relevant for large > \score blocks, so a succession of lots of reasonably-sized \score-s > is not what I am looking for: rather I would prefer one single huge > \score. I know, I can take an existing \score and \repeat unfold 100 > it, but I am still interested in comparing with real-world cases. So > this is not a very important request, as I can likely achieve it > with what I already have: it would just save me time if it's only > a matter of sending it for someone. You may have already found it, but when I was looking for something similar last year, I dug up the following thread (in addition to the usual Carver score): https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-11/msg00939.html Some responses are interesting, in particular https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-11/msg00941.html and https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-11/msg00948.html Cheers Jonas signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Consecutive trills
Hi all, >> As far as I know that's not a notation rule, but I agree that it makes more >> sense to use the trill + wavy line for tied notes. > I haven't seen "tr" plus chevron on a single untied note When it’s a chain of trills — some tied, others single — I find the consistency [of using the wavy line on *all* trills, and not just the tied notes] is appreciated by conductors and performers. Cheers, Kieren.
Re: Consecutive trills
> On 29 Apr 2022, at 16:31, Martín Rincón Botero > wrote: > > Thanks Hans! > > As far as I know that's not a notation rule, but I agree that it makes more > sense to use the trill + wavy line for tied notes. I haven't seen "tr" plus chevron on a single untied note, though the Harvard Concise mentions that "t" plus chevron has been used historically, but then perhaps not extending beyond the note itself.
Re: Consecutive trills
Le 29/04/2022 à 16:33, Martín Rincón Botero a écrit : Wow, one of those historical bugs. Ay! In a volunteer project like LilyPond, there are no rules for the time before a bug gets fixed. To a good extent, this time follows a memoryless law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorylessness In this case, I don't think the bug is hard at all. It's just that nobody stepped up to fix it so far. Perhaps worth highlighting is that fixing bugs that annoyed me was a motivation for me to start contributing to LilyPond two years ago. Who knows? The one to squash that bug could be you. All the best, Jean
Re: Very large score (for benchmarking purposes)
Thanks a lot to all those who replied, including Timothy Lanfear, who replied privately. I now have several scores that fit my purpose. Best, Jean
Re: Consecutive trills
Or with \tweak. Thank you Jean! Wow, one of those historical bugs. Ay!
On abr. 29 2022, at 4:31 pm, Jean Abou Samra wrote:
>
>
> Le 29/04/2022 à 12:07, Martín Rincón Botero a écrit :
> > Dear list,
> >
> > consider:
> >
> > \version "2.22.1"
> >
> > {
> > d'2
> > \startTrillSpan
> > b2
> > \startTrillSpan
> > b1\stopTrillSpan
> > }
> >
> > Which produces:
> >
> > [image]
> > How can I bring both trills to be vertically aligned? (Compare the
> > example in the documentation which automatically engraves a similar
> > situation correctly:
> > https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.22/Documentation/notation/expressive-marks-as-lines#trills).
>
>
>
> This is a variant of this old issue:
> https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/923
> Basically, the problem is that trill spanner must be printed with an
> integer number of squiggles. Depending on the exact length of the
> first trill, its last squiggle may, or may not, overlap with the
> next trill, forcing the next trill to avoid it vertically.
>
> You can circumvent the problem with
> \version "2.22.1"
> {
> d'2\tweak bound-details.right.padding 2 \startTrillSpan
> b2\startTrillSpan
> b1\stopTrillSpan
> }
>
>
> Best,
> Jean
>
Re: Consecutive trills
Thanks Hans!
As far as I know that's not a notation rule, but I agree that it makes more
sense to use the trill + wavy line for tied notes. Anyways, I found a solution
with the property bound-details.right.padding of TrillSpanner.
\version "2.22.1"
{
\override Score.SpacingSpanner.spacing-increment = #3
\override TrillSpanner.bound-details.right.padding = #2
c'4 \startTrillSpan
c'4 \startTrillSpan
\revert TrillSpanner.bound-details.right.padding
c'4 \startTrillSpan
c'4 \stopTrillSpan
}
Cheers,
Martín.
On abr. 29 2022, at 3:20 pm, Hans Åberg wrote:
>
> > On 29 Apr 2022, at 12:07, Martín Rincón Botero
> > wrote:
> >
> > consider:
> >
> > \version "2.22.1"
> >
> > {
> > d'2
> > \startTrillSpan
> > b2
> > \startTrillSpan
> > b1\stopTrillSpan
> > }
>
> You might use \trill in these cases, as the trill symbol "tr" by itself
> applies to the whole note it is written above, and it only. —The trill span
> is only needed for slurred notes.
Re: Consecutive trills
Le 29/04/2022 à 12:07, Martín Rincón Botero a écrit :
Dear list,
consider:
\version "2.22.1"
{
d'2
\startTrillSpan
b2
\startTrillSpan
b1\stopTrillSpan
}
Which produces:
[image]
How can I bring both trills to be vertically aligned? (Compare the
example in the documentation which automatically engraves a similar
situation correctly:
https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.22/Documentation/notation/expressive-marks-as-lines#trills).
This is a variant of this old issue:
https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/923
Basically, the problem is that trill spanner must be printed with an
integer number of squiggles. Depending on the exact length of the
first trill, its last squiggle may, or may not, overlap with the
next trill, forcing the next trill to avoid it vertically.
You can circumvent the problem with
\version "2.22.1"
{
d'2\tweak bound-details.right.padding 2 \startTrillSpan
b2\startTrillSpan
b1\stopTrillSpan
}
Best,
Jean
Re: Consecutive trills
> On 29 Apr 2022, at 12:07, Martín Rincón Botero
> wrote:
>
> consider:
>
> \version "2.22.1"
>
> {
> d'2
> \startTrillSpan
> b2
> \startTrillSpan
> b1\stopTrillSpan
> }
You might use \trill in these cases, as the trill symbol "tr" by itself applies
to the whole note it is written above, and it only. —The trill span is only
needed for slurred notes.
Consecutive trills
Dear list,
consider:
\version "2.22.1"
{
d'2
\startTrillSpan
b2
\startTrillSpan
b1\stopTrillSpan
}
Which produces:
How can I bring both trills to be vertically aligned? (Compare the example in
the documentation which automatically engraves a similar situation correctly:
https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.22/Documentation/notation/expressive-marks-as-lines#trills).
Regards,
Martín.
Re: Very large score (for benchmarking purposes)
have a look at https://github.com/nsceaux/nenuvar if it comes to really large and complex scores Am Mi., 20. Apr. 2022 um 01:20 Uhr schrieb Jean Abou Samra < j...@abou-samra.fr>: > Hi there, > > By any chance, would anybody have a very large score to hand (say, > something taking more than two minutes to compile at least), preferably > running under current versions, or under not too old versions? In > particular, I am testing a change that is mostly relevant for large > \score blocks, so a succession of lots of reasonably-sized \score-s > is not what I am looking for: rather I would prefer one single huge > \score. I know, I can take an existing \score and \repeat unfold 100 > it, but I am still interested in comparing with real-world cases. So > this is not a very important request, as I can likely achieve it > with what I already have: it would just save me time if it's only > a matter of sending it for someone. > > Thanks! > > Jean > > > >
