Re: Frescobaldi?
I can confirm the same problem. Just installed macports and frescobaldi port and it launches only via terminal. Double clicking on the .app (inside the apps/macports folder) returns a general launch error with py2app. Once launched via terminal, frescobaldi works great, though. > El 10 maig 2024, a les 17:48, Xavier Mayeur va escriure: > > yes, I am sure. This is the frescobaldi.app under the /Applications/MacPorts > folder. I've cleaned all older versions before installing with Mac Port > > Xavier > > Le 10/05/24 à 17:37, Jean Abou Samra a écrit : >>> I've freshly installed Frescobaldi using mac port. When lauching the >>> frescobaldi.app, >> Are you sure that this is the Frescobaldi that was installed by MacPorts? >> It rather sounds like the (buggy) .app distributed in the Frescobaldi >> releases. I think the MacPorts-installed Frescobaldi should be launched >> by executing the `frescobaldi` command in a terminal — which was apparently >> successful for you. > -- > Cordialement, > > Xavier MAYEUR > 14 rue Thiernesse > 1070 Bruxelles
Re: Polytempo barlines
Thanks for the input, \enablePolymeter seems to be roughly equivalent to
the bit I had:
\context {
\Staff
\consists "Timing_translator"
}
Thought the other bit is still necessary for things to work across
multiple systems properly.
On 2024-05-10 5:14 p. m., Knute Snortum wrote:
You may want to add...
\layout {
\enablePolymeter
}
Re: Key signatures in MIDI output
Giles Boardman writes: > Hello, > > I am reading that I can create MIDI output which is different from the > printed output. For example, I can unfold repeats in the midi output > but use alternative endings and double barlines in my score. Awesome! > > So, I tried it and I notice that my MIDI output doesn't reflect the > key signatures (everything is in C with accidentals) while my > on-screen preview (even when I only have a midi block and no layout > block) and the .pdf have sharps and flats at the beginning of the > staff. > > The snippet about midi output in the documentation show the key > signature as written in the example, but as mentioned, that doesn't > mean it has made it into the MIDI file. Before I troubleshoot further, > can anyone confirm what I should expect, please? Key signatures are a facet of MIDI files, not of a live MIDI stream. If you play music via a sequencer, the sequencer knows the signature, the instrument doesn't. At least that's what I remember. -- David Kastrup
Re: Polytempo barlines
On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 2:07 PM Dmitri Volkov
wrote:
> Apologies for all the emails, but I believe I figured it out. Using \set
> Staff.measureBarType = "" as follows seems to do the trick, although
> there still is a bit of gap where the barline would go.
>
> \version "2.24.3"
>
> stuff = \relative {
> \set Staff.measureBarType = ""
> \time 4/4
> c4 d4 e4 f4 | \bar "|"
> g4 f4 e4 d4 | \bar "|"
> c1 | \bar "|"
> }
>
> \score {
> <<
> \new Staff \scaleDurations 1/1 \stuff
> \new Staff \scaleDurations 8/9 \stuff
> >>
> \layout {
> \context {
> \Staff
> \consists "Timing_translator"
> }
> \context {
> \Voice
> \remove "Forbid_line_break_engraver"
> }
> }
> }
>
You may want to add...
\layout {
\enablePolymeter
}
...to your input file. Have a look at:
https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.24/Documentation/notation/displaying-rhythms#polymetric-notation
--
Knute Snortum
Re: Polytempo barlines
Apologies for all the emails, but I believe I figured it out. Using \set
Staff.measureBarType = "" as follows seems to do the trick, although
there still is a bit of gap where the barline would go.
\version "2.24.3"
stuff = \relative {
\set Staff.measureBarType = ""
\time 4/4
c4 d4 e4 f4 | \bar "|"
g4 f4 e4 d4 | \bar "|"
c1 | \bar "|"
}
\score {
<<
\new Staff \scaleDurations 1/1 \stuff
\new Staff \scaleDurations 8/9 \stuff
>>
\layout {
\context {
\Staff
\consists "Timing_translator"
}
\context {
\Voice
\remove "Forbid_line_break_engraver"
}
}
}
Thanks,
~Dmitri
On 2024-05-10 4:42 p. m., Dmitri Volkov wrote:
Apologies for the double email, I was confused because it looked like
it wasn't being posted to the email list.
I also wanted to provide a smaller example which reproduces the issue:
\version "2.24.3"
stuff = \relative {
\time 4/4
c4 d4 e4 f4 | \bar "|"
g4 f4 e4 d4 | \bar "|"
c1 | \bar "|"
}
\score {
<<
\new Staff \scaleDurations 1/1 \stuff
\new Staff \scaleDurations 8/9 \stuff
>>
\layout {
\context {
\Staff
\consists "Timing_translator"
}
\context {
\Voice
\remove "Forbid_line_break_engraver"
}
}
}
Thank you!
~Dmitri Volkov
On 2024-05-10 4:18 p. m., Dmitri Volkov wrote:
Hello,
I am looking to engrave a polytempo piece with LilyPond, but am
having trouble getting the bars to display properly. Using \bar "|"
seems to ensure that both parts include barlines in the correct
places, but the second part seems to also include the bars of the
first part.
Trying to remove barlines, as described in the code at the following
link, doesn't seem to work:
https://www.bachproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=448&p=1648&hilit=polytempo#p1648
Very new to LilyPond so any guidance would be greatly appreciated!
Here is a zip with the project files, which are pretty minimal:
https://we.tl/t-3X0QXkhkUs .
Thank you,
~Dmitri Volkov
Re: Polytempo barlines
Apologies for the double email, I was confused because it looked like it
wasn't being posted to the email list.
I also wanted to provide a smaller example which reproduces the issue:
\version "2.24.3"
stuff = \relative {
\time 4/4
c4 d4 e4 f4 | \bar "|"
g4 f4 e4 d4 | \bar "|"
c1 | \bar "|"
}
\score {
<<
\new Staff \scaleDurations 1/1 \stuff
\new Staff \scaleDurations 8/9 \stuff
>>
\layout {
\context {
\Staff
\consists "Timing_translator"
}
\context {
\Voice
\remove "Forbid_line_break_engraver"
}
}
}
Thank you!
~Dmitri Volkov
On 2024-05-10 4:18 p. m., Dmitri Volkov wrote:
Hello,
I am looking to engrave a polytempo piece with LilyPond, but am having
trouble getting the bars to display properly. Using \bar "|" seems to
ensure that both parts include barlines in the correct places, but the
second part seems to also include the bars of the first part.
Trying to remove barlines, as described in the code at the following
link, doesn't seem to work:
https://www.bachproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=448&p=1648&hilit=polytempo#p1648
Very new to LilyPond so any guidance would be greatly appreciated!
Here is a zip with the project files, which are pretty minimal:
https://we.tl/t-3X0QXkhkUs .
Thank you,
~Dmitri Volkov
Polytempo barlines
Hello, I am looking to engrave a polytempo piece with LilyPond, but am having trouble getting the bars to display properly. Using \bar "|" seems to ensure that both parts include barlines in the correct places, but the second part seems to also include the bars of the first part. Trying to remove barlines, as described in the code at the following link, doesn't seem to work: https://www.bachproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=448&p=1648&hilit=polytempo#p1648 Very new to LilyPond so any guidance would be greatly appreciated! I've attached a zip with the project files. Thank you, ~Dmitri Volkov<>
Fwd: Polytempo barlines
Hello, I am looking to engrave a polytempo piece with LilyPond, but am having trouble getting the bars to display properly. Using \bar "|" seems to ensure that both parts include barlines in the correct places, but the second part seems to also include the bars of the first part. Trying to remove barlines, as described in the code at the following link, doesn't seem to work: https://www.bachproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=448&p=1648&hilit=polytempo#p1648 Very new to LilyPond so any guidance would be greatly appreciated! Here is a zip with the project files, which are pretty minimal: https://we.tl/t-3X0QXkhkUs . Thank you, ~Dmitri Volkov
Re: Key signatures in MIDI output
On Fri, 10 May 2024, Hans Åberg wrote: > > signature. The MIDI file does not contain that information; it is up to > > whatever software reads the MIDI file, to display it appropriately. > > So to go back to staff notation from MIDI, one must know what enharmonic > equivalences that have been applied. Yes - and it's not Lilypond that does that step, so if the translation back to staff notation is not as desired, there's little that can be done within Lilypond to fix it. -- Matthew Skala msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before tribes. https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/
Re: Key signatures in MIDI output
> On 10 May 2024, at 21:50, msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
>
> On Fri, 10 May 2024, Hans Åberg wrote:
>
>> Programs like ABC work so that one writes the music without accidentals,
>> and then apply a key signature to get them. It was my reading that the
>> OP asked for that.
>
> Okay. I didn't read it that way because the OP said he was getting
> correct output in the PDF, and if he'd misunderstood the input format in
> the way you describe, then the PDF would be wrong too.
>
> But something else that occurred to me is that there may be a further
> misunderstanding of MIDI format in play here: MIDI never contains
> "accidentals" at all. It only contains note numbers.
MIDI is based on E12, the 12-equal tone system. The staff notation, as used in
LilyPond, is originally based on Pythagorean tuning, without enharmonic
equivalences, which must be applied for the MIDI output.
> In my example code:
>
> \score {
> \new Voice {
>\key c \major
>c'4 d'4 e'4 f'4 |
>\key d \minor
>bes4 a4 g4 f4 |
> }
> \layout { }
> \midi { }
> }
>
> The MIDI output will contain roughly this information:
>
> key change, C major
> note 60
> note 62
> note 64
> note 65
> key change, D minor
> note 58
> note 57
> note 55
> note 53
>
> If some other software, reading the MIDI file, displays these as notes
> with or without accidentals, and does or doesn't make the key-change
> events visible, then that has very little to do with Lilypond, which only
> generates the above data. Note 60, for instance, might be a C or a
> B-sharp. Even if it is B-sharp, it might be displayed with or without a
> sharp sign depending on whether there is one in the displayed key
> signature. The MIDI file does not contain that information; it is up to
> whatever software reads the MIDI file, to display it appropriately.
So to go back to staff notation from MIDI, one must know what enharmonic
equivalences that have been applied.
Re: Key signatures in MIDI output
On Fri, 10 May 2024, Hans Åberg wrote:
> Programs like ABC work so that one writes the music without accidentals,
> and then apply a key signature to get them. It was my reading that the
> OP asked for that.
Okay. I didn't read it that way because the OP said he was getting
correct output in the PDF, and if he'd misunderstood the input format in
the way you describe, then the PDF would be wrong too.
But something else that occurred to me is that there may be a further
misunderstanding of MIDI format in play here: MIDI never contains
"accidentals" at all. It only contains note numbers. In my example code:
\score {
\new Voice {
\key c \major
c'4 d'4 e'4 f'4 |
\key d \minor
bes4 a4 g4 f4 |
}
\layout { }
\midi { }
}
The MIDI output will contain roughly this information:
key change, C major
note 60
note 62
note 64
note 65
key change, D minor
note 58
note 57
note 55
note 53
If some other software, reading the MIDI file, displays these as notes
with or without accidentals, and does or doesn't make the key-change
events visible, then that has very little to do with Lilypond, which only
generates the above data. Note 60, for instance, might be a C or a
B-sharp. Even if it is B-sharp, it might be displayed with or without a
sharp sign depending on whether there is one in the displayed key
signature. The MIDI file does not contain that information; it is up to
whatever software reads the MIDI file, to display it appropriately.
--
Matthew Skala
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before tribes.
https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/
Re: Key signatures in MIDI output
> On 10 May 2024, at 20:18, msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
>
> On Fri, 10 May 2024, Hans Åberg wrote:
>
>> To change the MIDI output, you will need to change the notes, say by
>> transposing or something else.
>
> MIDI files can include events ("key-change meta messages") for key
> signatures, each specifying a root and whether it's major or minor (which
> actually makes them more expressive than standard notation which can't
> distinguish, for instance, between C major and A minor). Lilypond
> generates these events in the MIDI files on each key change in my
> installation. If Giles's installation appears not to, I wonder whether
> that may be due to an issue with the software he's using to examine the
> MIDI files.
>
> For instance, this input produces a MIDI file with key-change events at
> the indicated places:
>
> \score {
> \new Voice {
>\key c \major
>c'4 d'4 e'4 f'4 |
>\key d \minor
>bes4 a4 g4 f4 |
> }
> \layout { }
> \midi { }
> }
Programs like ABC work so that one writes the music without accidentals, and
then apply a key signature to get them. It was my reading that the OP asked for
that.
Re: Key signatures in MIDI output
On Fri, 10 May 2024, Hans Åberg wrote:
> To change the MIDI output, you will need to change the notes, say by
> transposing or something else.
MIDI files can include events ("key-change meta messages") for key
signatures, each specifying a root and whether it's major or minor (which
actually makes them more expressive than standard notation which can't
distinguish, for instance, between C major and A minor). Lilypond
generates these events in the MIDI files on each key change in my
installation. If Giles's installation appears not to, I wonder whether
that may be due to an issue with the software he's using to examine the
MIDI files.
For instance, this input produces a MIDI file with key-change events at
the indicated places:
\score {
\new Voice {
\key c \major
c'4 d'4 e'4 f'4 |
\key d \minor
bes4 a4 g4 f4 |
}
\layout { }
\midi { }
}
--
Matthew Skala
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before tribes.
https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/
Re: 2.25.15 quotedCueEventTypes
On Wed, 8 May 2024 at 19:35, Paul Scott wrote: > > Yes. Does one of those include phrasing slurs? Hello, For phrasing slurs you need to add phrasing-slur-event to the list. FYI the default value of quotedCueEventTypes is in IR 2.1.31 Score https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.25/Documentation/internals/score And the list of events (music classes) in IR 1.2 Music classes https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.25/Documentation/internals/music-classes For documentation first look in NR, then IR and if you still find nothing in the sources (ly or scm files first). Kind regards, Xavier
Re: Key signatures in MIDI output
> On 10 May 2024, at 16:26, Giles Boardman wrote: > > I am reading that I can create MIDI output which is different from the > printed output. For example, I can unfold repeats in the midi output but use > alternative endings and double barlines in my score. Awesome! > > So, I tried it and I notice that my MIDI output doesn't reflect the key > signatures (everything is in C with accidentals) while my on-screen preview > (even when I only have a midi block and no layout block) and the .pdf have > sharps and flats at the beginning of the staff. > > The snippet about midi output in the documentation show the key signature as > written in the example, but as mentioned, that doesn't mean it has made it > into the MIDI file. Before I troubleshoot further, can anyone confirm what I > should expect, please? The signatures are only a notational convenience to simplify reading; traditionally, they do not indicate even the key, even though "key signature" somehow got popular in English. To change the MIDI output, you will need to change the notes, say by transposing or something else.
Re: Frescobaldi?
yes, I am sure. This is the frescobaldi.app under the /Applications/MacPorts folder. I've cleaned all older versions before installing with Mac Port Xavier Le 10/05/24 à 17:37, Jean Abou Samra a écrit : I've freshly installed Frescobaldi using mac port. When lauching the frescobaldi.app, Are you sure that this is the Frescobaldi that was installed by MacPorts? It rather sounds like the (buggy) .app distributed in the Frescobaldi releases. I think the MacPorts-installed Frescobaldi should be launched by executing the `frescobaldi` command in a terminal — which was apparently successful for you. -- Cordialement, Xavier MAYEUR 14 rue Thiernesse 1070 Bruxelles
Re: Frescobaldi?
> I've freshly installed Frescobaldi using mac port. When lauching the > frescobaldi.app, Are you sure that this is the Frescobaldi that was installed by MacPorts? It rather sounds like the (buggy) .app distributed in the Frescobaldi releases. I think the MacPorts-installed Frescobaldi should be launched by executing the `frescobaldi` command in a terminal — which was apparently successful for you. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Key signatures in MIDI output
Hello, I am reading that I can create MIDI output which is different from the printed output. For example, I can unfold repeats in the midi output but use alternative endings and double barlines in my score. Awesome! So, I tried it and I notice that my MIDI output doesn't reflect the key signatures (everything is in C with accidentals) while my on-screen preview (even when I only have a midi block and no layout block) and the .pdf have sharps and flats at the beginning of the staff. The snippet about midi output in the documentation show the key signature as written in the example, but as mentioned, that doesn't mean it has made it into the MIDI file. Before I troubleshoot further, can anyone confirm what I should expect, please? Thank you Giles
Re: Spacing of chords on a chord lead sheet
Hi Raphael,
> However, the chord names are mono-spaced; they are not spaced according to
> their durations. So that if, for instance, I have {ef2 ef4:maj7 ef4:7} then
> each symbol occupies the same amount of space on the line. The first chord
> does not occupy double the space of the other two.
Are you sure? Are you using ragged-right = ##f to confirm/test?
For example, the code
%%% SNIPPET BEGINS
\version "2.25.11"
\language "english"
\layout {
indent = 0
line-width = 4\in
ragged-right = ##f
\context {
\Score
\remove "Bar_number_engraver"
}
\context {
\ChordNames
\consists "Bar_engraver"
\override BarLine.bar-extent = #'(-2 . 2)
}
}
theChords = \chordmode {
ef4 ef2:maj7 ef4:7 \break
ef2 ef4:maj7 ef4:7
}
\new ChordNames \theChords
%%% SNIPPET ENDS
gives me the output
and clearly there’s a difference in the spacing.
Cheers,
Kieren.
__
My work day may look different than your work day. Please do not feel obligated
to read or respond to this email outside of your normal working hours.
Re: Auto-beaming
Hi, > > I'm currently writing some sheet music in 2/4. I'd like measures containing > > four eights to be all beamed together, but everything except that should > > use Lilypond's default rules. How can I achieve this? > > I was wonderning if in the end you found a solution. I would like to > do the same and have the same issues but nobody was able to help you > in 2017. Finally, I found the solution: I copied the exceptions of default 4/4 with minor changes to adapt for the shorter measure: \time 2/4 \set Timing.beamExceptions = #'(( end . ( (1/8 . (4)); 1/8 note whole measure (1/12 . (3 3)) ; anything shorter by beat ) )) With that, 1/16 end at each time and 1/8 are grouped by measure. I love lilypond! Thanks, F
Re: Auto-beaming
Hi,
> I'm currently writing some sheet music in 2/4. I'd like measures containing
> four eights to be all beamed together, but everything except that should use
> Lilypond's default rules. How can I achieve this?
I was wonderning if in the end you found a solution. I would like to
do the same and have the same issues but nobody was able to help you
in 2017.
I also tried \beamExceptions { 8[ 8 8 8 8] } but I also get 1/16
beamed together on the whole measures.
Thanks,
F
Re: Crammed ChordNames
Hi Pierre-Luc, >> I don’t know… but if you figure out what’s causing it, ***please*** tell me, >> because I also often (and “randomly”) get ChordName collisions like this in >> my scores, and my workflow is rarely (read: NEVER) luxurious enough for me >> to do anything except edition-engraver-tweak the crap out of the score and >> move on. > > My goto is usually to pepper the offending part with \allowPageTurn.s > and check that all 4 editions (letter, letterXL, tablet, tabletXL) are > ok (git commit -vp && git push && ./doItAll and move on). The thing is, there’s usually MORE than enough vertical space to allow the ChordNames to “float up”, and \allowPageTurn-s [and related] throw off my (read: the optimal LOL) layout. One day maybe I’ll have enough time to really investigate the issue and come up with a real solution… Cheers, Kieren. __ My work day may look different than your work day. Please do not feel obligated to read or respond to this email outside of your normal working hours.
Re: Crammed ChordNames
> I don’t know… but if you figure out what’s causing it, ***please*** tell me, > because I also often (and “randomly”) get ChordName collisions like this in > my scores, and my workflow is rarely (read: NEVER) luxurious enough for me to > do anything except edition-engraver-tweak the crap out of the score and move > on. My goto is usually to pepper the offending part with \allowPageTurn.s and check that all 4 editions (letter, letterXL, tablet, tabletXL) are ok (git commit -vp && git push && ./doItAll and move on). -- Pierre-Luc Gauthier
Re: [basic question] how to disable text spanners for the lower staff of a PianoStaff
On Fri, 10 May 2024 15:07:33 +0800 Mark Knoop wrote ---
> Haven't tested, but I think Text_spanner_engraver lives in Voice, rather than
> Staff. Try removing from the \global Voice, otherwise send a WME.
Ah... indeed. That does take care of it.
\new PianoStaff \with {
instrumentName = "古筝"
shortInstrumentName = "古筝"
} <<
\new Staff = "up" << \global \zhengR >>
\new Staff = "down" % \with { \remove Text_spanner_engraver }
<<
\clef bass
\new Voice \with { \remove Text_spanner_engraver } { \global }
\zhengL
>>
>>
Kieren's solution also works, with a bit less syntax.
Thanks to both!
hjh
Re: Crammed ChordNames
Hi Pierre-Luc, > Why am I so often, (and so randomly) getting crammed ChordNames in Staves ? I don’t know… but if you figure out what’s causing it, ***please*** tell me, because I also often (and “randomly”) get ChordName collisions like this in my scores, and my workflow is rarely (read: NEVER) luxurious enough for me to do anything except edition-engraver-tweak the crap out of the score and move on. Cheers, Kieren. __ My work day may look different than your work day. Please do not feel obligated to read or respond to this email outside of your normal working hours.
Re: [basic question] how to disable text spanners for the lower staff of a PianoStaff
Hi James,
> I've got a piano staff (for guzheng, just notating on two staves), and an
> "accel." text spanner in a \global var.
Don’t forget to post MWEs, so people who want to help don’t have to conjure
code themselves. :)
> Some magic incantation I'm missing...
Not sure why your incantation doesn’t work, but this seems to:
%%% SNIPPET BEGINS
\version "2.25.11"
global = {
\override TextSpanner.bound-details.left.text = \markup { \upright "rit." }
s1\startTextSpan
s1\stopTextSpan
}
zhengR = { c'1 1 }
zhengL = { c1 c }
\new PianoStaff \with {
instrumentName = "古筝"
shortInstrumentName = "古筝"
} <<
\new Staff = "up" << \global \zhengR >>
\new Staff = "down" \with { \omit TextSpanner } << \clef bass \global
\zhengL >>
>>
%%% SNIPPET ENDS
Hope that helps!
Kieren.
__
My work day may look different than your work day. Please do not feel obligated
to read or respond to this email outside of your normal working hours.
Re: MIDI format and MIDI resolution
Indeed, Martin. But I am more of a troubadour than a musician and more of a business analyst than a programmer, so I have cobbled together some "utilities" that help me make music from assorted midi files and long before I understood the role I might make LilyPond play I choose a midi resolution and it isn't 384. I believe ABC2MIDI also outputs at a fixed resolution, though I could be wrong. So, you're right, my "software" doesn't conform to the MIDI standard, but it doesn't really need to because it has a user group of one. Best Giles From: lilypond-user-bounces+giles.boardman=hotmail.co...@gnu.org on behalf of Martin Tarenskeen Sent: 10 May 2024 10:06 To: lilypond-user@gnu.org Subject: Re: MIDI format and MIDI resolution Op donderdag 9 mei 2024 om 16:33:02 +00:00:00 schreef Giles Boardman : > Hello, > Can anyone tell me if it is possible to generate Midi format 0 files > and whether it is possible to control the resolution setting. I have > been standardising resolution for midi files from different sources > and the value I chose is not the one output by Lilypond. What is the reason you want to standardise the resolution for your midi files anyway? If there is software that you use that requires a standardized midi resolution, then this software was not designed conform the MIDI standard. Any software that can load MIDI files should be able to read any possible resolution from a MIDI file and calculate whatever it needs for it's own native resolution from there. -- Martin
Re: MIDI format and MIDI resolution
Op donderdag 9 mei 2024 om 16:33:02 +00:00:00 schreef Giles Boardman : Hello, Can anyone tell me if it is possible to generate Midi format 0 files and whether it is possible to control the resolution setting. I have been standardising resolution for midi files from different sources and the value I chose is not the one output by Lilypond. What is the reason you want to standardise the resolution for your midi files anyway? If there is software that you use that requires a standardized midi resolution, then this software was not designed conform the MIDI standard. Any software that can load MIDI files should be able to read any possible resolution from a MIDI file and calculate whatever it needs for it's own native resolution from there. -- Martin
