Questions on ancient music
Hello!
I have edited the motet "o vos omnes" by the spanish composer Tomas
Luis de Victoria from XVI century:
http://www.uma.es/grupovocal/ovos.ly
http://www.uma.es/grupovocal/ovos.pdf
you can see the original source in
http://tomasluisdevictoria.org/originales.html
I used Pedro's lilypond-snapshot 2.4.1
I would like to make some questions and comments:
1- In the lilypond manual I have seen a template of ancient music, and
among other nice features it includes
a way to make an "incipit" to put the original clefs. In my edition
I used a different approach using two
lovely features of lilypond:
-use a complete score containing only the incipit as
the value of Staff.instrument
-multiply each note in the incipit for a convenient
fraction to make all the same length.
It looks quite good, but maybe the lilypond hackers out there can
improve it to make it look better.
2- Other lovely feature of lilypond is the ancient ligatures, marked
with \[ and \]
In the output it looks very good, but at compile time there is a
warning for each ligature:
"warning: Programming error:
Ligature_engraver::stop_translation_timestep (): junking empty ligature"
Am I doing something wrong?
3- With the new versions of lilypond the lyrics are applied to the text
nicely, now the extensors and hyphens for melismas
work great (by the way, in the manual it is still described the old
behaviour of long hypens).
But I found very unconfortable to write \melisma and \melismaEnd to
mark the melismas.
I know that can use ( and ), and them make the curves invisible, but
I do not know if it is the best solution.
I would like to ask to the developers if in the future (far o near)
will be support to mark the melismas in the
lyrics section, I mean, to put something like {ag -- _ _ _ _ _ nus De
-- _ _ _ _ i } to achieve the same effect
than the \melisma \melismaEnd mechanism. This point is very important
for me.
4- In the ancient music not every accidental was notated, the so called
musica ficta was supposed to be sung by the performer
without being written. In modern notation, the common way to notate
it is a small accidental on top of the note.
Currently, I use cautionary accidentals, see for example bar 22 of
the bassus. It would be very good, to have
an option to notate cautionary as a small accidental on top of the
note (and other option to put it on top and between parenthesis, for
editorial accidentals). Currently it can be done with \markup but
it does not translate to the MIDI output, nor it can be transposed.
5- Bug or feature?
In bar 62 of the cantus, there are two G sharp (it is the same
music than in bar 27), it happens because there is
a change of line. Is that normal? I would prefer only one sharp
sign to be printed.
6- Other usual notation in ancient music is a square bracket (similar
to the ligature) but with a dashed line, indicating that the original source
has black notes. You can see an example in the original source of
the bassus part, corresponding to bar 22. I do not know exactly the meaning
of black notation, but good editions always mark it. As far as I
know, it is not possible to do it with lily, will this feature be
included in the future?
Please forgive me for this long post.
Thanks to the developers of lilypond for such a wonderful program!
NANCHO
P.D. If somebody sings in a choir, try this motet, it is one of the most
beautiful pieces of music ever written.
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Re: Multiple lyrics problem
I'm wondering what the best way is to accomplish this. Basically I
want this:
Some ly-rics on a sing-le line for the first part
1. (tacet)
2. Ly-rics for sec-ond stan-za
3. Ly-rics for third__ stan-za
I do not know it it will work in your version of lilypond, but in older
versions it was done like this:
\lyrics{
<
{ _ _ _ _ _ }
\context Lyrics \lyrics{Ly -- rics se -- cond }
\context Lyrics \lyrics{Ly -- rics third }
>
}
you can check for example
http://tomasluisdevictoria.org/ly/O_Magnum_Mysterium-6-Agnus_Dei.ly
I hope it helps
NANCHO
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Re: vertical spacing problem
D Josiah Boothby wrote: Hello, all, I'd like to change either the vertical spacing or the global staff size after page one, and can't figure out a way to do that. If I have the spacing such that p.1 fits three systems, p.2 has a glaringly large white space at the bottom. To see what I'm talking about, you can download from the following urls the first two pages of the score (in .png or .pdf, depending on your preference). Maybe you can try to put in the paper secion the lines interscoreline= 0.0 \cm interscorelinefill= 1.0 This is not what you ask, but makes the staffs spaced to fill the whole page. I hope it helps NANCHO ___ lilypond-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
adding lyrics is baffling to me...
I use a different version of lilypond (2.1.25) but I think the problem
is that you do not specify correctly de duraction of each sylable.
Try this
\context Lyrics \lyrics {
On8 Mon- day I went to my home,8*5 And8
there I was paint- ed in blue.8*5 I8
sang a nice song,4 etc
}
Observe that you do not need to use 8 in each sylable because by defect
the last value is used. Observe also that if you want a sylable
expand for 5 eights you can write 8*5
Also in the begining of chords section, I think you mean a 8 rest, not a
2. one.
Anyway I recommend the use of \addlyrics (or \lyricsto in the newest
versions), look for it in the documentation.
With this you do not have to worry about duration of sylables, it is
taken automatically from the music.
I hope this helps you.
NANCHO
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Feature request: Melisma
I am very happy to see that somebody has the same problems than me.
I have typed about 250 scores of renaissance music
using the version 1.4 (you can see them in http://tomasluisdevictoria.org)
This music contain many many many melisma. What I did was:
Use \addlyrics, (or the new \lyricsto )
If neccesary disable the automatic melismata (the command in the 2.1.25
version is \set Score.melismaBusyProperties = #'(melismaBusy) )
Then combine notes and lyrics in the following way:
\notes{c8 d e f g a b c' c''2 }
\lyrics { ly -- _ _ _ li -- _ _ _ pond }
this makes the sylabes "ly" and "li" run for 4 eights each one.
The result is suboptimal because the hypens go only from the first note
to the secon note, not to the next sylabe.
You can use also
\lyrics { ly -- _ -- _ -- _ li -- _ -- _ -- _ pond }
but this is very ugly.
I dont like very much extenders, so I dont use them (I dont like how
lilypond handles them either)
I was quite happy with the result, until I saw the new version of lilypond.
The alignment of the lyrics and text is very nice and the hypens are
rendered lovely.
I want my files be rendered with the new version
but to get this new behaviour you have to use a different syntax:
\notes{c8 \melisma d e f \melismaEnd g \melisma a b c' \melismaEnd c''2 }
\lyrics { ly -- li -- pond }
Now I have to convert all my files to this new syntax. This will be a
very hard work. I am going to write a script to automatize the process,
but I am not a coder, I dont know if I will be able to (I am learning
Perl, just for write this script).
I would like very very much that in the future lilypond include an
option to make the underscores notation equivalent to the \melisma notation.
It will save me a lot of work, it is very easy and fast to type, and
besides, it is an easier way to deal with stanzas with different melismata.
Please, include it.
In any case, thank you very much to all the lilypond hackers, for this
wonderful piece of software that lilypond is.
Greetings from Spain
NANCHO
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Re: musica ficta, or how to put small accidentals on top of the notes
What LilyPond version do you use? As can be seen at the link given above, it works in version 2.0.2 at least. If you compare the accidental of the third beat with the parenthesized accidental of the fourth beat, it's clearly smaller. I can see the difference of sizes in http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.0/input/regression/out-www/collated-files.html#accidental-cautionary.ly But when I compile the example with lilypond 2.1.25 there is no difference. The parentheses are rendered correctly, but the third note has a sharp the same size than normal. Maybe it has it something to do with convert-ly? this is the line actually compiled \override Staff.Accidental #'cautionary-style = #'smaller I dont think so because \override Staff.Accidental #'cautionary-style = #'parentheses works fine. By the way, I think that I have discovered an undocumented feature: putting two interrogation marks after a note, makes the alteration invisible: cis?? no sharp rendered cis??? rendered cis not rendered the same with the admiration marks !! (I cannot test here if the accidental goes to the MIDI file or not) Greetings NANCHO ___ Lilypond-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: musica ficta, or how to put small accidentals on top of the notes
Mats Bengtsson wrote:
One way to handle these accidentals is to use the support for
cautionary accidentals in LilyPond. Currently, these can be
typeset either as an ordinary accidental within parenthesis or
as a smaller size accidental. See
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.0/input/regression/out-www/collated-files.html#accidental-cautionary.ly
for an example. I seem to remember that there was a discussion on the
mailing list some years ago where someone planned to introduce yet
another style option, namely to print them on top of the note as
you propose. However, it seems that this feature was never implemented.
/Mats
Thank you for your answer, I will follow your recommendation, and I will
use cautionary accidentals.
By the way, the style #'smaller doesn't seem to work.
It would be nice that in the future will be support for a third style to
put small cautionaries on top of the notes.
Thanks again.
NANCHO
Nancho Alvarez wrote:
Some time ago, somebody asked to the list how to transcribe the so
called "musica ficta".
In the Renaissance era, some of the accidental were not put on the
score, although they were supposed to be sung.
Modern editors put a small accidental on top of the note.
See a good description in the message
http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2001-09/msg00026.html
Mats gave us a solution in the message
http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2002-09/msg00161.html
but as it was pointed out, this solution does not transpose nor is
exported to the MIDI file.
Somebody even suggested a possible syntax.
In the documentation I do not see any reference to "musica ficta", is
it already implemented? will it be in the future?
I think it is an important feature.
Thank you very much
NANCHO
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musica ficta, or how to put small accidentals on top of the notes
Some time ago, somebody asked to the list how to transcribe the so called "musica ficta". In the Renaissance era, some of the accidental were not put on the score, although they were supposed to be sung. Modern editors put a small accidental on top of the note. See a good description in the message http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2001-09/msg00026.html Mats gave us a solution in the message http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2002-09/msg00161.html but as it was pointed out, this solution does not transpose nor is exported to the MIDI file. Somebody even suggested a possible syntax. In the documentation I do not see any reference to "musica ficta", is it already implemented? will it be in the future? I think it is an important feature. Thank you very much NANCHO ___ Lilypond-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
addlyrics vs. lyricsto
Hello! I have been playing around with the development version of lilypond.
The improved lyrics support is lovely, specially the new way of
rendering hyphens.
I have seen that \addlyrics is not longer documented, and that there is
a new way
to link notes and text, \lyricsto. The behaviour of both is different.
I attach an example.
With lyricsto (upper staff) the alignment looks centered on the note.
This is nice if the notes are not part of a melisma, but in my opinion,
in the melismas, the text should be centered at the left, because
usually there is a lot of room to the right of the note.
With addlyrics (down staff) the melisma is very nicely aligned but it
seems that the last sylabe would be nicer if it would be centered.
This difference of behaviour is a bug or a feature?
Thank you in advance
NANCHO
<>\version "2.1.23"
#(set-global-staff-size 16)
\header{}
melody=\notes{ g'8 \melisma a' b' c'' \melismaEnd c''2 }
text=\lyrics{ssoft -- ware }
\score{
<<
\context Voice = soprano \melody
\lyricsto soprano \new Lyrics \text
\addlyrics
\context Voice = "v2" \melody
\new Lyrics \text
>>
\paper { raggedright = ##t }
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Melisma and underscores
Hi
I would like to know if there is any way to indicate a melisma using the
underscore _ (or other character) inside the Lyrics block.
I know that to get a melisma the proper thing to do is combine the lines:
\notes{c \melisma d e f \melismaEnd g}
\lyrics{li -- ly -- pond }
but I would like to use something similar to
\notes{c d e f g }
\lyrics{li -- _ _ ly -- pond }
I have written some lilypond files with music by Tomas Luis de Victoria
(http://tomasluisdevictoria.org),
using this erroneus syntax because I thought it was correct.
The problem of this approach is that the hypens are not properly
displayed nor the alignment is correct.
I tried to adapt it to the good syntax but it is a great lot of work,
there are more than 200 files and it is music very melismatic and with
many different voices.
For that reason, my last hope is that there exist a variable o property
to force lilypond to understand the underscores as
melisma and treat them as if there were a pair \melisma \melismaEnd
inserted.
Thank you in advance
NANCHO
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