Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Bob Proulx]

Ian Kelling wrote:
> I looked into the missing mail, couldn't find it.

Thanks for looking into this problem.

> Please report any future missing emails. Usually we can figure it
> out.

Seconded.  If you are having problems with any of the mailing lists
please report it.  There are 1,500+ mailing lists and although we use
the lists outselves we don't subscribe to all of them!  Whew, that
would be a lot.  We won't notice problems everywhere unless they are
reported.

> Bob, correct me if I'm wrong, but they should probably first check
> with lilypond-user-owner that there is a moderation issue, then
> report to sysad...@gnu.org?

Yes.  Please use the -owner address for any problem with a particular
mailing list.  For example lilypond-user-owner AT gnu DOT org for this
list.  We can sort it out there and pass it along if needed.  This is
especially true of the reverse problem of when spam appears on a
mailing list.  We can tune up filters and make adjustments.  And also
help with subscription problems.

Bob

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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Ian Kelling]

Bob Proulx  writes:

> I have been reading the thread about lost emails to the list.  Perhaps
> I can help communicate the goings on that happens out of sight.  This
> message is a little long.  If not interested in how email and mailing
> lists work then please feel free to skip it.
>
> Karlin High wrote:
>> Robert Schmaus wrote:
>> > > is anyone else using Thunderbird, and never having any
>> > > lost messages at all?
>> >
>> > I do, and I haven't ever lost a message to this (or indeed any) list.
>
> I doubt the problem is Thunderbird.
>
>> > > If so, is your email provider something other than
>> > It's FastMail.
>> 
>> Curiouser and curiouser. The part that bugs me the worst is when I do
>> a Reply-All and the message never appears on the list, but then the
>> other recipients of my message ALSO do a Reply-All, and have their
>> replies to my message get posted to list, making it seem that my
>
> I really don't see how that difference caused any difference at all.
> In other words I don't think that is the problem.
>
>> message delivered everywhere but to the list. Most recent example
>> here, in David Nalesnik's automatic partwriter thread:
>> 
>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-09/msg00471.html
>> 
>> That makes it hard not to blame something on the GNU Lists end of things.
>
> This does look like something on either 'eggs' or 'lists' intercepted
> the message.  Probably one of the content filters there had a false
> positive hit and kicked it out.  I have forwarded the message id to
> FSF sysadmin and asked them to look for it.
>
> In any case the flow of email is that eggs receives all incoming email
> for all GNU & FSF domains.  It acts as the front end mail relay.  It
> has a layer of anti-spam that will reject or discard messages that it
> classifies as spam.  I do not have access to eggs and can't look at
> the logs there and therefore direct all problems that might be there
> to FSF sysadmin.  I have access to Mailman and some of lists.gnu.org.
> The machine eggs if it classfies a message as spam will discard the
> message there.  If not then it will forward the message over to
> lists.gnu.org where another layer of anti-spam exists.  If it gets
> through that layer then the message is handed to Mailman.
>
> At the Mailman layer if the sender address has not posted to the
> mailing before then the message will be held for moderation.  This
> only happens *once* for the *first* messages from a new address until
> the modertors approve it.  After that point messages from that address
> are no longer held for moderation.  This is due to the problem that
> spammers routinely subscribe to mailing lists and then post spam
> hoping that their message will get through because they are
> subscribed.  That is why we moderate new subscribers (and everyone)
> upon the first message they send to the list.  But after they are
> approved as a non-spammer then their messages are not held again.
>
> I don't know how many total messages are sent through lists.gnu.org
> but the total is *A LOT* and if all of those messages needed to be
> moderated by humans it would be impossible.  We count on the automated
> tools such as SpamAssassin and other checks to automatically classify
> messages as much as possible.  A description of how SpamAssassin is
> used in the lists.gnu.mailman setup is described in some detail here
> https://savannah.gnu.org/maintenance/ListHelperAntiSpam/ .
>
> This means that if you change email addresses and send from a
> different location that message looks like a new user.  It will be
> held for human moderation.  Once.  Until approved.  Then there will be
> no more moderation.
>
> So where can mail get lost?  There are still several places.  One is
> that there are content filters at eggs.gnu.org that may kick out
> individual messages that trip the filter.  And effectively the same is
> true on lists.gnu.org too.
>
> Another is that DNSBLs are used to avoid mail from known locations.
> You may be using a mail relay that is also used by others that is
> sending spam and therefore blocked by sending from the same location
> as a spammer.  That block may be temporary if the sending machine
> falls into trouble but is then corrected.
>
> Sometimes mail is simply delayed.  All Mail Transport Agents throttle
> activity when the machine is overloaded.  Sometimes machines become
> overloaded becaues spammers are bombarding the system with spam where
> it gets overloaded to the point of being a denial of service.  One
> must be patient and wait for the servers to be able to process the
> mail.  Things will be delayed but will eventually get through.
>
> Another problem is that large messages are very bad for big mailing
> lists.  There are ~1600 users on this mailing list.  If someone sends
> a large image it really consumes massive bandwidth through the
> multiplication to all of the subscribers.  I think the mailing list
> server is the biggest 

Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Knut Petersen]

Am 25.10.2017 um 05:58 schrieb Bob Proulx:


At the Mailman layer if the sender address has not posted to the
mailing before then the message will be held for moderation.  This
only happens *once* for the *first* messages from a new address until
the modertors approve it.  After that point messages from that address
are no longer held for moderation.


Thanks for the information. All that sounds pretty reasonable, it sufficiently 
protects against spam and does not discourage participants.

Other FOSS mailing lists implement different policies.  One particularly bad 
example: The main linux-kernel  mailing lists (those hosted at vger.kernel.org) 
completely block all mails from native email addresses of the biggest German 
ISP (t-online.de) since 2014/05.

Knut

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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Karlin High]

On 10/24/2017 10:58 PM, Bob Proulx wrote:

Perhaps I can help communicate the goings on that happens out of sight.


Thank you! That was very informative. By examining message headers, I 
had formed some assumptions about how the Gnu Lists message flow is 
structured, and it was nice to have them largely confirmed.


Messages being lost to aggressive spam filtering makes sense. I have 
marveled at how spam-free this list stays, for what is basically a 
published email address. Having an occasional lost message is a 
trade-off I'm happy to make, for not having junk ads cluttering 
everything up.

--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Bob Proulx]

I have been reading the thread about lost emails to the list.  Perhaps
I can help communicate the goings on that happens out of sight.  This
message is a little long.  If not interested in how email and mailing
lists work then please feel free to skip it.

Karlin High wrote:
> Robert Schmaus wrote:
> > > is anyone else using Thunderbird, and never having any
> > > lost messages at all?
> >
> > I do, and I haven't ever lost a message to this (or indeed any) list.

I doubt the problem is Thunderbird.

> > > If so, is your email provider something other than
> > It's FastMail.
> 
> Curiouser and curiouser. The part that bugs me the worst is when I do
> a Reply-All and the message never appears on the list, but then the
> other recipients of my message ALSO do a Reply-All, and have their
> replies to my message get posted to list, making it seem that my

I really don't see how that difference caused any difference at all.
In other words I don't think that is the problem.

> message delivered everywhere but to the list. Most recent example
> here, in David Nalesnik's automatic partwriter thread:
> 
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-09/msg00471.html
> 
> That makes it hard not to blame something on the GNU Lists end of things.

This does look like something on either 'eggs' or 'lists' intercepted
the message.  Probably one of the content filters there had a false
positive hit and kicked it out.  I have forwarded the message id to
FSF sysadmin and asked them to look for it.

In any case the flow of email is that eggs receives all incoming email
for all GNU & FSF domains.  It acts as the front end mail relay.  It
has a layer of anti-spam that will reject or discard messages that it
classifies as spam.  I do not have access to eggs and can't look at
the logs there and therefore direct all problems that might be there
to FSF sysadmin.  I have access to Mailman and some of lists.gnu.org.
The machine eggs if it classfies a message as spam will discard the
message there.  If not then it will forward the message over to
lists.gnu.org where another layer of anti-spam exists.  If it gets
through that layer then the message is handed to Mailman.

At the Mailman layer if the sender address has not posted to the
mailing before then the message will be held for moderation.  This
only happens *once* for the *first* messages from a new address until
the modertors approve it.  After that point messages from that address
are no longer held for moderation.  This is due to the problem that
spammers routinely subscribe to mailing lists and then post spam
hoping that their message will get through because they are
subscribed.  That is why we moderate new subscribers (and everyone)
upon the first message they send to the list.  But after they are
approved as a non-spammer then their messages are not held again.

I don't know how many total messages are sent through lists.gnu.org
but the total is *A LOT* and if all of those messages needed to be
moderated by humans it would be impossible.  We count on the automated
tools such as SpamAssassin and other checks to automatically classify
messages as much as possible.  A description of how SpamAssassin is
used in the lists.gnu.mailman setup is described in some detail here
https://savannah.gnu.org/maintenance/ListHelperAntiSpam/ .

This means that if you change email addresses and send from a
different location that message looks like a new user.  It will be
held for human moderation.  Once.  Until approved.  Then there will be
no more moderation.

So where can mail get lost?  There are still several places.  One is
that there are content filters at eggs.gnu.org that may kick out
individual messages that trip the filter.  And effectively the same is
true on lists.gnu.org too.

Another is that DNSBLs are used to avoid mail from known locations.
You may be using a mail relay that is also used by others that is
sending spam and therefore blocked by sending from the same location
as a spammer.  That block may be temporary if the sending machine
falls into trouble but is then corrected.

Sometimes mail is simply delayed.  All Mail Transport Agents throttle
activity when the machine is overloaded.  Sometimes machines become
overloaded becaues spammers are bombarding the system with spam where
it gets overloaded to the point of being a denial of service.  One
must be patient and wait for the servers to be able to process the
mail.  Things will be delayed but will eventually get through.

Another problem is that large messages are very bad for big mailing
lists.  There are ~1600 users on this mailing list.  If someone sends
a large image it really consumes massive bandwidth through the
multiplication to all of the subscribers.  I think the mailing list
server is the biggest bandwidth consumer.  Also many people are using
metered network bandwidth plans and large images for messages they
might not care about can cost them real money.  Therefore large
messages are always at the 

Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Robin Bannister]

David Wright wrote:


So the question is why your Message-ID: 
<2914e16a-e129-19ca-4fc2-b3a552123...@dabble.ch>
didn't arrive on the list. Perhaps the spam scan produced a false
positive. Has this started happening within the past year? I notice
that your postings are submitted slightly differently from
previously.


I changed provider about a year ago, after 20y with the previous one.

My sporadic postings get lost so rarely, I sense no correlations.
There was a case I noted in Feb 2012, and maybe 2 since then.


Cheers,
Robin

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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[David Wright]

On Mon 23 Oct 2017 at 11:10:23 (+0200), Robin Bannister wrote:
> Karlin High wrote:
> 
> >Curiouser and curiouser. The part that bugs me the worst is when I do
> >a Reply-All and the message never appears on the list, but then the
> >other recipients of my message ALSO do a Reply-All, and have their
> >replies to my message get posted to list, making it seem that my
> >message delivered everywhere but to the list. Most recent example
> >here, in David Nalesnik's automatic partwriter thread:
> >
> >https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-09/msg00471.html
> >
> >That makes it hard not to blame something on the GNU Lists end of things.
> 
> 
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-10/msg00129.html
> 
> The end of this thread shows a Reply-All from me reaching the recipient
> but not the list.
> 
> The list archive knows enough about it to say "Message not available".

AIUI that line is merely a placeholder. If a posting has a line
like In-Reply-To:  and the list doesn't already have a
matching Message-ID:  then it threads the posting to the
placeholder rather than threading it to any old message or
starting a new thread.

So the question is why your Message-ID: 
<2914e16a-e129-19ca-4fc2-b3a552123...@dabble.ch>
didn't arrive on the list. Perhaps the spam scan produced a false
positive. Has this started happening within the past year? I notice
that your postings are submitted slightly differently from
previously. Unfortunately the partial scorings aren't revealed in
the headers on this list.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Robin Bannister]

Karlin High wrote:


Curiouser and curiouser. The part that bugs me the worst is when I do
a Reply-All and the message never appears on the list, but then the
other recipients of my message ALSO do a Reply-All, and have their
replies to my message get posted to list, making it seem that my
message delivered everywhere but to the list. Most recent example
here, in David Nalesnik's automatic partwriter thread:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-09/msg00471.html

That makes it hard not to blame something on the GNU Lists end of things.



http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-10/msg00129.html

The end of this thread shows a Reply-All from me reaching the recipient
but not the list.

The list archive knows enough about it to say "Message not available".


Cheers,
Robin

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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Karlin High]

On 10/19/2017 4:48 PM, SoundsFromSound wrote:

Did you try my suggestion from earlier in the thread, did it help in
Thunderbird?


Just now; we'll see what happens. But since Thunderbird is out of the 
picture after the message arrives at smtp.gmail.com... dunno. We'll see.

--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[David Wright]

On Thu 19 Oct 2017 at 17:33:08 (+0200), Bernhard Kleine wrote:
> Am 19.10.2017 um 15:04 schrieb Wols Lists:
> > And again, I don't think it applies here, don't forget some lists will
> > look at the distribution list on the incoming mail, and not send the
> > outgoing message to those addresses. So you do not receive a copy of
> > your own emails.
> Actually I do receive my own mails with most of the list I am attached
> as well as with the lilypond-user list.

I regularly read reports where it's the sender's email system that
silently prunes postings that lists send back to the poster. But
this is secondhand information and wouldn't explain an occasional loss.

> > Has gmx sat on the mail for a while before sending it?
> I have never experienced such behaviour.

If you know that, then you presumably know where in the chain it
*is* delayed because you've examined the header. I've already deleted
the email(s) in question, but I did check your posts that I still have
(14), and all got from your client to my email provider in about 60
seconds except two (3 and 6 minutes) where the extra time was spent in
the bowels of gnu.org.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[SoundsFromSound]

Karlin High wrote
> Anyway, the Gmail web interface has never had delivery trouble here so
> far. I'll be fine. But for the moment, I think people who make
> multiple postings or apparently off-list conversations should be given
> some extra grace.
> -- 
> Karlin High
> Missouri, USA

Karlin,

Did you try my suggestion from earlier in the thread, did it help in
Thunderbird?





-
composer | sound designer | asmr artist 
--
Sent from: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/User-f3.html

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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Karlin High]

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Robert Schmaus  wrote:
>> is anyone else using Thunderbird, and never having any
>> lost messages at all?
>
> I do, and I haven't ever lost a message to this (or indeed any) list.
>
>> If so, is your email provider something other than
> It's FastMail.

Curiouser and curiouser. The part that bugs me the worst is when I do
a Reply-All and the message never appears on the list, but then the
other recipients of my message ALSO do a Reply-All, and have their
replies to my message get posted to list, making it seem that my
message delivered everywhere but to the list. Most recent example
here, in David Nalesnik's automatic partwriter thread:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-09/msg00471.html

That makes it hard not to blame something on the GNU Lists end of things.

Anyway, the Gmail web interface has never had delivery trouble here so
far. I'll be fine. But for the moment, I think people who make
multiple postings or apparently off-list conversations should be given
some extra grace.
-- 
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Robert Schmaus]

Hi Karlin,

> But anyway, is anyone else using Thunderbird, and never having any
> lost messages at all?

I do, and I haven't ever lost a message to this (or indeed any) list.
Sometimes it took a while for it to show up but I doubt that's anything to do 
with TBird. 

> If so, is your email provider something other than Gmail, GMX, or
> Microsoft? (Microsoft meaning Hotmail, Outlook.com, etc.)

It's FastMail. 

HTH,
Robert

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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Bernhard Kleine]

Am 19.10.2017 um 15:04 schrieb Wols Lists:
> And again, I don't think it applies here, don't forget some lists will
> look at the distribution list on the incoming mail, and not send the
> outgoing message to those addresses. So you do not receive a copy of
> your own emails.
Actually I do receive my own mails with most of the list I am attached
as well as with the lilypond-user list.

> Has gmx sat on the mail for a while before sending it?
I have never experienced such behaviour.
Cheers
Bernhard

-- 
spitzhalde9
D-79853 lenzkirch
bernhard.kle...@gmx.net
www.b-kleine.com, www.urseetal.net
-
thunderbird mit enigmail
GPG schlüssel: D5257409
fingerprint:
08 B7 F8 70 22 7A FC C1 15 49 CA A6 C7 6F A0 2E D5 25 74 09




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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Wols Lists]

On 19/10/17 12:33, Bernhard Kleine wrote:
> 

> 
> As I started this, I would like to comment:
> 
>  1. I read this list using Thunderbird, my mail server sits with
> gmx.net. When I didnot see my mail for several hours arriving on the
> list I started to worry.

Has gmx sat on the mail for a while before sending it? This can happen
... expecially if one of "internet tubes" is clogged.

>  2. In the mean time there were to messages in the mailing list
> arriving. I checked the spam folder with gmx using a webinterface,
> but there were not any mails from lilypond-user@gnu.org.

Messages should turn up eventually, but don't forget mail servers can
get clogged up. We're so used to immediate delivery we forget that
doesn't always happen.

I sometimes get messages back from lists saying random messages have
been held for moderation. I don't remember this happening here, but it can.

>  3. I have not yet understood why this delay. It is nice to know that
> mails do not get lost, but how can you be sure, David. Mails lost
> would not be seen?
> 
And again, I don't think it applies here, don't forget some lists will
look at the distribution list on the incoming mail, and not send the
outgoing message to those addresses. So you do not receive a copy of
your own emails.

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Bernhard Kleine]

Am 18.10.2017 um 18:38 schrieb Karlin High:
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 9:08 AM, David Kastrup  wrote:
>> Bynow you should have realized that Mails to lilypond-user do not, as a
>> rule, get lost and reposting them several times does not help.
> Would that were true for some of us Thunderbird users! (Header says
> that's what sent the messages.)
>
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-09/msg00260.html
>
> I was driven to switch to the Gmail web interface. I can make it work,
> but I think I would still prefer Thunderbird.
>
> In my experience, it is a fool's errand to try fixing problems of this
> nature. It usually means lots of research, and then telling an email
> admin something like "Your system has configuration X and it is
> causing me problems." Usually that gets a response like "We configured
> it that way because Y, and we are not changing it. Sorry about your
> email client."
>
> But anyway, is anyone else using Thunderbird, and never having any
> lost messages at all?
> If so, is your email provider something other than Gmail, GMX, or
> Microsoft? (Microsoft meaning Hotmail, Outlook.com, etc.)
> --
> Karlin High
> Missouri, USA

As I started this, I would like to comment:

 1. I read this list using Thunderbird, my mail server sits with
gmx.net. When I didnot see my mail for several hours arriving on the
list I started to worry.
 2. In the mean time there were to messages in the mailing list
arriving. I checked the spam folder with gmx using a webinterface,
but there were not any mails from lilypond-user@gnu.org.
 3. I have not yet understood why this delay. It is nice to know that
mails do not get lost, but how can you be sure, David. Mails lost
would not be seen?

Bernard

-- 
spitzhalde9
D-79853 lenzkirch
bernhard.kle...@gmx.net
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-
thunderbird mit enigmail
GPG schlüssel: D5257409
fingerprint:
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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Ben]

On 18/10/17 17:38, Karlin High wrote:

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 9:08 AM, David Kastrup  wrote:

Bynow you should have realized that Mails to lilypond-user do not, as a
rule, get lost and reposting them several times does not help.

I was driven to switch to the Gmail web interface. I can make it work,
but I think I would still prefer Thunderbird.


But anyway, is anyone else using Thunderbird, and never having any
lost messages at all?
If so, is your email provider something other than Gmail, GMX, or
Microsoft? (Microsoft meaning Hotmail, Outlook.com, etc.)
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

Thuderbird + btinternet - though that's not much use for Missouri!  At
work I use Thunderbird + gmail and cannot say I've ever suffered from
dropped emails - yet!




Hi Karlin,

A little while back I had made a thread where I was having issues 
sending mail to the list via Thunderbird (and Nabble directly) - I 
contacted the mailing list admin and received some helpful advice.


In addition to only *attaching* files (vs. drag/drop images inline, 
which can be an overload for certain recipients), I also made one 
important change that may help you as it helped me. (see attached)


I changed the way Google *authenticated* my account and the problem 
immediately was resolved. I now use Oath instead of a "normal" password. 
It doesn't require any extra work on your end other than an initial 
setup, but it's very easy.


Hope this helps you too.


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Re: Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[J Martin Rushton]

On 18/10/17 17:38, Karlin High wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 9:08 AM, David Kastrup  wrote:
>> Bynow you should have realized that Mails to lilypond-user do not, as a
>> rule, get lost and reposting them several times does not help.
> 
> Would that were true for some of us Thunderbird users! (Header says
> that's what sent the messages.)
> 
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-09/msg00260.html
> 
> I was driven to switch to the Gmail web interface. I can make it work,
> but I think I would still prefer Thunderbird.
> 
> In my experience, it is a fool's errand to try fixing problems of this
> nature. It usually means lots of research, and then telling an email
> admin something like "Your system has configuration X and it is
> causing me problems." Usually that gets a response like "We configured
> it that way because Y, and we are not changing it. Sorry about your
> email client."
> 
> But anyway, is anyone else using Thunderbird, and never having any
> lost messages at all?
> If so, is your email provider something other than Gmail, GMX, or
> Microsoft? (Microsoft meaning Hotmail, Outlook.com, etc.)
> --
> Karlin High
> Missouri, USA

Thuderbird + btinternet - though that's not much use for Missouri!  At
work I use Thunderbird + gmail and cannot say I've ever suffered from
dropped emails - yet!




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Any other Thunderbird users have messages never post? (WAS: Hide slur?)

[Karlin High]

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 9:08 AM, David Kastrup  wrote:
> Bynow you should have realized that Mails to lilypond-user do not, as a
> rule, get lost and reposting them several times does not help.

Would that were true for some of us Thunderbird users! (Header says
that's what sent the messages.)

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-09/msg00260.html

I was driven to switch to the Gmail web interface. I can make it work,
but I think I would still prefer Thunderbird.

In my experience, it is a fool's errand to try fixing problems of this
nature. It usually means lots of research, and then telling an email
admin something like "Your system has configuration X and it is
causing me problems." Usually that gets a response like "We configured
it that way because Y, and we are not changing it. Sorry about your
email client."

But anyway, is anyone else using Thunderbird, and never having any
lost messages at all?
If so, is your email provider something other than Gmail, GMX, or
Microsoft? (Microsoft meaning Hotmail, Outlook.com, etc.)
--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

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