Baritone and treble clef
On 13.02.2017 17:43, Kieren MacMillan wrote: The piece I am setting can be sung by a baritone or by a mezzo-soprano. In the score, therefore, there are 2 vocal staves, one for each of the alternative voices. The staves contain identical music apart from an octave diffence in pitch and different clefs. Aside: Have you thought about just having one staff, and putting the clef modifier (i.e., subscript 8) in parentheses? I agree. Baritones have no trouble whatsoever singing from treble clef. I’d not even bother to put the clef modifier there, because it’s self-explanatory if you write ‘Mezzosoprano or baritone’. But that may be from my personal dislike of \clef "treble_8". Historically, when people started notating tenors with treble clefs, it was transposing notation, the whole ‘octavated clef’ idea being in this case a misconception. (advanced piano notation being a different issue) Best, Simon ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Baritone and treble clef
On Mon, 2017-02-13 at 22:58 +0100, Simon Albrecht wrote: > On 13.02.2017 17:43, Kieren MacMillan wrote: > > > > > > > > The piece I am setting can be sung by a baritone or by a mezzo- > > > soprano. > > > In the score, therefore, there are 2 vocal staves, one for each > > > of the > > > alternative voices. The staves contain identical music apart > > > from an > > > octave diffence in pitch and different clefs. > > Aside: Have you thought about just having one staff, and putting > > the clef modifier (i.e., subscript 8) in parentheses? > I agree. Baritones have no trouble whatsoever singing from treble > clef. > I’d not even bother to put the clef modifier there, because it’s > self-explanatory if you write ‘Mezzosoprano or baritone’. But that > may > be from my personal dislike of \clef "treble_8". Historically, when > people started notating tenors with treble clefs, it was transposing > notation, the whole ‘octavated clef’ idea being in this case a > misconception. (advanced piano notation being a different issue) > > Best, Simon I am reluctant to remove the baritone line, written in bass clef, for 2 reasons: 1) the piece was originally written for baritone singer, and I would therefore not like anyone to get the impression that the male voice is merely an less desirable alternative to the female voice. 2) I may be mistaken, since I am not generally involved in performing vocal music, but I think it would be unusual for a baritone to be expected to read treble clef. I am sure that most can, but that is hardly the point: I used to be a flute-player, and I could easily have read my music in bass clef (performing the necessary 1- or 2-octave transpostion), but in 55 years I was never expected to. David ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Baritone and treble clef
- Original Message - From: "David Sumbler" 2) I may be mistaken, since I am not generally involved in performing vocal music, but I think it would be unusual for a baritone to be expected to read treble clef. I am sure that most can, but that is hardly the point: I used to be a flute-player, and I could easily have read my music in bass clef (performing the necessary 1- or 2-octave transpostion), but in 55 years I was never expected to. David You are mistaken. Baritone singers read music in treble clef all the time. A speak as one who has been singing from both bass and treble clef for 40-odd years. -- Phil Holmes ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Baritone and treble clef
Hi David, Am 14.02.2017 um 12:52 schrieb David Sumbler: > On Mon, 2017-02-13 at 22:58 +0100, Simon Albrecht wrote: >> On 13.02.2017 17:43, Kieren MacMillan wrote: The piece I am setting can be sung by a baritone or by a mezzo- soprano. In the score, therefore, there are 2 vocal staves, one for each of the alternative voices. The staves contain identical music apart from an octave diffence in pitch and different clefs. >>> Aside: Have you thought about just having one staff, and putting >>> the clef modifier (i.e., subscript 8) in parentheses? >> I agree. Baritones have no trouble whatsoever singing from treble >> clef. >> I’d not even bother to put the clef modifier there, because it’s >> self-explanatory if you write ‘Mezzosoprano or baritone’. But that >> may >> be from my personal dislike of \clef "treble_8". Historically, when >> people started notating tenors with treble clefs, it was transposing >> notation, the whole ‘octavated clef’ idea being in this case a >> misconception. (advanced piano notation being a different issue) >> >> Best, Simon If I'm not mistaken you didn't specify what kind and era of music we are talking about, so that might make things different. > I am reluctant to remove the baritone line, written in bass clef, for 2 > reasons: > 1) the piece was originally written for baritone singer, and I would > therefore not like anyone to get the impression that the male voice is > merely an less desirable alternative to the female voice. Traditionally, i.e. at least in the late eighteenth and the nineteenth century, music that was explicitly set for baritone or bass was notated in bass clef. Music that could be equally sung by both voices (I suppose this goes mainly (only?) for songs) are in treble clef, without any modifier. > 2) I may > be mistaken, since I am not generally involved in performing vocal > music, but I think it would be unusual for a baritone to be expected to > read treble clef. I am sure that most can, but that is hardly the > point: I used to be a flute-player, and I could easily have read my > music in bass clef (performing the necessary 1- or 2-octave > transpostion), but in 55 years I was never expected to. As Phil said, you are mistaken. If you're a baritone and you want to sing *any* of the usual suspects in Lied literature from Schubert over Brahms to Webern you'll have treble clef most of the time, with the exception of explicit bass songs. Even songs for tenor are usually written in treble clef. So if you want to indicate a part to be performed by mezzo or baritone you'd probably want to have just a single staff with treble clef, and something like "Mezzo or baritone" as the "instrument name". HTH Urs > David > > ___ > lilypond-user mailing list > lilypond-user@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -- u...@openlilylib.org https://openlilylib.org http://lilypondblog.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Baritone and treble clef
On Tue, 2017-02-14 at 12:03 +, Phil Holmes wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "David Sumbler" > > > > 2) I may > > be mistaken, since I am not generally involved in performing vocal > > music, but I think it would be unusual for a baritone to be > > expected to > > read treble clef. I am sure that most can, but that is hardly the > > point: I used to be a flute-player, and I could easily have read my > > music in bass clef (performing the necessary 1- or 2-octave > > transpostion), but in 55 years I was never expected to. > > > > David > > You are mistaken. Baritone singers read music in treble clef all the > time. > A speak as one who has been singing from both bass and treble clef > for 40-odd years. Well, there you are then - I said I might be mistaken, and I was right! David ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Baritone and treble clef
On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 at 12:18 David Sumbler wrote: > > > You are mistaken. > Well, there you are then - I said I might be mistaken, and I was right! > Always nice to be proven correct ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user