Re: Best support programs for Lilypond

[Richard Shann]

On Mon, 2016-03-14 at 12:11 +0100, Menu Jacques wrote:
> Hello Richard,
> 
> Thanks for your answer.
> 
> If I understand well, backup and forward MusicXML elements change the current 
> 'position' in a voice along the way.
> 
> Why is it difficult to handle that properly?

because it depends on what that means and it depends on people who write
musicXML exporters having the same idea about what that means. A Backup
element contains a "duration" element and it documents this immediately
below  as:

"Duration is a positive number specified in division units. This is the
intended duration vs. notated duration (for instance, swing eighths vs.
even eighths, or differences in dotted notes in Baroque-era music).
Differences in duration specific to an interpretation or performance
should use the note element's attack and release attributes."

which obviously has nothing to do with the "backup" description.
I think the underlying problem is that musicXML has been created not for
the benefit of free software but to help promote a specific commercial
program. Characteristic of commercial products is that they should above
all look very professional, and sound like the right thing.

Unfortunately the free alternative (MEI I think it's called) has been
designed to be written by hand rather than by machine - the creators
explain that there are many different ways of describing the same thing
in MEI, which is good for humans, but bad for machines. LilyPond is in
that class, allowing you to structure your file to reflect your music
rather than providing some rigid framework.

Richard



> 
> JM
> 
> > Le 14 mars 2016 à 11:28, Richard Shann  a écrit :
> > 
> > On Mon, 2016-03-14 at 11:08 +0100, Menu Jacques wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >> 
> >>> Le 6 mars 2016 à 16:07, Richard Shann  a écrit :
> >>> 
> >>> It indeed should be able, but MusicXML isn't well adapted to the task:
> >>> note durations are indicated in multiple ways and there is a timer that
> >>> can move backwards to indicate notes that are to be sounded at the same
> >>> time as other notes and the resulting spaghetti can be very difficult to
> >>> interpret. The result can be nothing read at all, or (as in the case
> >>> with Denemo's import at least) empty staffs to be deleted, redundant
> >>> time signatures to be deleted, or worse, time signatures to be guessed
> >>> and inserted.
> >> 
> >> I’ve tried to find information about the MusicXML timer mentioned by 
> >> Richard, but no way.
> >> 
> >> Can someone indicate where to find some?
> > 
> > I think it's this
> > 
> > http://www.musicxml.com/UserManuals/MusicXML/MusicXML.htm#CT-MusicXML-backup.htm
> > 
> > Description
> > 
> > The backup and forward elements are required to coordinate multiple
> > voices in one part, including music on multiple staves. The backup type
> > is generally used to move between voices and staves. Thus the backup
> > element does not include voice or staff elements. Duration values should
> > always be positive, and should not cross measure boundaries or
> > mid-measure changes in the divisions value.
> > 
> > although the description is typically vague and I'm not sure it
> > corresponds much with what people do. The documentation seems to have
> > changed a lot since I last saw it, it appears to be machine generated
> > for the most part, making it look very comprehensive; unfortunately
> > machines don't care whether it means anything.
> > 
> > Richard
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> 



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Re: Best support programs for Lilypond

[Menu Jacques]

Hello Richard,

Thanks for your answer.

If I understand well, backup and forward MusicXML elements change the current 
'position' in a voice along the way.

Why is it difficult to handle that properly?

JM

> Le 14 mars 2016 à 11:28, Richard Shann  a écrit :
> 
> On Mon, 2016-03-14 at 11:08 +0100, Menu Jacques wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>>> Le 6 mars 2016 à 16:07, Richard Shann  a écrit :
>>> 
>>> It indeed should be able, but MusicXML isn't well adapted to the task:
>>> note durations are indicated in multiple ways and there is a timer that
>>> can move backwards to indicate notes that are to be sounded at the same
>>> time as other notes and the resulting spaghetti can be very difficult to
>>> interpret. The result can be nothing read at all, or (as in the case
>>> with Denemo's import at least) empty staffs to be deleted, redundant
>>> time signatures to be deleted, or worse, time signatures to be guessed
>>> and inserted.
>> 
>> I’ve tried to find information about the MusicXML timer mentioned by 
>> Richard, but no way.
>> 
>> Can someone indicate where to find some?
> 
> I think it's this
> 
> http://www.musicxml.com/UserManuals/MusicXML/MusicXML.htm#CT-MusicXML-backup.htm
> 
> Description
> 
> The backup and forward elements are required to coordinate multiple
> voices in one part, including music on multiple staves. The backup type
> is generally used to move between voices and staves. Thus the backup
> element does not include voice or staff elements. Duration values should
> always be positive, and should not cross measure boundaries or
> mid-measure changes in the divisions value.
> 
> although the description is typically vague and I'm not sure it
> corresponds much with what people do. The documentation seems to have
> changed a lot since I last saw it, it appears to be machine generated
> for the most part, making it look very comprehensive; unfortunately
> machines don't care whether it means anything.
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Best support programs for Lilypond

[Richard Shann]

On Mon, 2016-03-14 at 11:08 +0100, Menu Jacques wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> > Le 6 mars 2016 à 16:07, Richard Shann  a écrit :
> > 
> > It indeed should be able, but MusicXML isn't well adapted to the task:
> > note durations are indicated in multiple ways and there is a timer that
> > can move backwards to indicate notes that are to be sounded at the same
> > time as other notes and the resulting spaghetti can be very difficult to
> > interpret. The result can be nothing read at all, or (as in the case
> > with Denemo's import at least) empty staffs to be deleted, redundant
> > time signatures to be deleted, or worse, time signatures to be guessed
> > and inserted.
> 
> I’ve tried to find information about the MusicXML timer mentioned by Richard, 
> but no way.
> 
> Can someone indicate where to find some?

I think it's this

http://www.musicxml.com/UserManuals/MusicXML/MusicXML.htm#CT-MusicXML-backup.htm

Description

The backup and forward elements are required to coordinate multiple
voices in one part, including music on multiple staves. The backup type
is generally used to move between voices and staves. Thus the backup
element does not include voice or staff elements. Duration values should
always be positive, and should not cross measure boundaries or
mid-measure changes in the divisions value.

although the description is typically vague and I'm not sure it
corresponds much with what people do. The documentation seems to have
changed a lot since I last saw it, it appears to be machine generated
for the most part, making it look very comprehensive; unfortunately
machines don't care whether it means anything.

Richard



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Re: Best support programs for Lilypond

[Menu Jacques]

Hello,

> Le 6 mars 2016 à 16:07, Richard Shann  a écrit :
> 
> It indeed should be able, but MusicXML isn't well adapted to the task:
> note durations are indicated in multiple ways and there is a timer that
> can move backwards to indicate notes that are to be sounded at the same
> time as other notes and the resulting spaghetti can be very difficult to
> interpret. The result can be nothing read at all, or (as in the case
> with Denemo's import at least) empty staffs to be deleted, redundant
> time signatures to be deleted, or worse, time signatures to be guessed
> and inserted.

I’ve tried to find information about the MusicXML timer mentioned by Richard, 
but no way.

Can someone indicate where to find some?

Thanks!

JM


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Re: Best support programs for Lilypond

[Noeck]

Hi Stan,

*Frescobaldi* etc. have been mentioned. It helps a lot and snippets can
ease the workflow.

When I find midi files, I often (60% of the cases) do this to save me
from entering all music again: *midi2ly* + a lot of search for
durations etc. + serious rewriting of anything that is beyond the
content of one voice. For the other 40% it is faster to enter it by hand.

On a meta-level, it might be interesting to use a version control system
for the ly input files:
http://lilypondblog.org/2014/01/why-use-version-control-for-engraving-scores/
http://lilypondblog.org/2013/09/write-lilypond-code-for-version-control/
This is perhaps not about speed but reliability and control.

Cheers,
Joram

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Re: Best support programs for Lilypond

[Richard Shann]

On Sun, 2016-03-06 at 07:46 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Sun 06 Mar 2016 at 12:06:51 (+), Richard Shann wrote:
> > On Sun, 2016-03-06 at 09:43 +0100, Martin Tarenskeen wrote:
> > > On Sun, 6 Mar 2016, Stan Mulder wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Just wondering how to achieve the best output with supporting programs 
> > > > when
> > > > working with Lilypond. I find Frescobaldi a huge leap forward in using
> > > > Lilypond. Frescobaldi increases productivity many times.
> > > >
> > > > Are there any other programs I should be using to speed the notation 
> > > > process?
> > > 
> > > Also you can use a GUI score editor like Finale, Sibelius, or, if you 
> > > like 
> > > many of us prefer free Open Source software, use MuseScore. Then you can 
> > > export as MusicXML, and then import this in Frescobaldi (uses 
> > > musicxml2ly). I find MuseScore easier/faster for composing and arranging 
> > > music, but frescobaldi/lilypond easier/faster to create publishing 
> > > quality 
> > > good looking scores.
> > 
> > I would be wary of any approach using MusicXML as a conversion format as
> > it is not a format well-suited to representing music notation. (Not as
> > unsuitable as MIDI, but still very poor). People have reported simply
> > being unable to import files due to variations in the interpretation of
> > the MusicXML "standard".
> 
> I wouldn't disagree with you there. However, in _my_ interpretation of
> the OP, I think MusicXML should be able to copy with transporting just
> the note pitches and durations

It indeed should be able, but MusicXML isn't well adapted to the task:
note durations are indicated in multiple ways and there is a timer that
can move backwards to indicate notes that are to be sounded at the same
time as other notes and the resulting spaghetti can be very difficult to
interpret. The result can be nothing read at all, or (as in the case
with Denemo's import at least) empty staffs to be deleted, redundant
time signatures to be deleted, or worse, time signatures to be guessed
and inserted.

>  from one's chosen fastest input method
> into LilyPond files for the actual typesetting.
> 
> Putting this interpretation on the OP, I omitted one of my methods
> which is not a supporting _program_, but none the less a great
> accelerator. My wife arranges music but is LP-illiterate. However, she
> is very proficient at typing LP's pitches and durations, one bar per
> line, and the basic lyrics, with very few mistakes, so that's where I
> get to start from.

That's good if you can combine a musician's and a typist's skills. If
you can play a MIDI instrument then Denemo lets you leverage that skill,
which you may find more pleasant to exercise.

Richard



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Re: Best support programs for Lilypond

[Richard Shann]

On Sun, 2016-03-06 at 15:12 +0100, Martin Tarenskeen wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 6 Mar 2016, Richard Shann wrote:
> 
> > Although Denemo is a GUI it can be set up to let you type in music using
> > pretty much the same keystrokes as with a text editor typing LilyPond
> > syntax.
> 
> I have heard many positive things about the power of Denemo. But everytime 
> I decided to give it a try, I soon gave up because I just didn't like the 
> interface
that's a *very* common response - I can see it myself, though I can't
put my finger on it, even the name Denemo appears unattractive to me.
"Rough-Hewn" someone once said. I think if it were in the hands of a
commercial company or a graphic designer it would get a skin written for
it.

>  and wasn't able to find my workflow in it.

yes, you won't find the very work flow you are looking for (unless, like
me you transcribe 18th c. prints for instruments and figured bass using
a MIDI controller), but it has the most (and most easily) customizable
interface of any program I know.

> 
> Personal taste I guess.
> I'm very happy with Gvim, Frescobaldi, and MuseScore and don't need much 
> more options.
> 
> > I would be wary of any approach using MusicXML as a conversion format as
> > it is not a format well-suited to representing music notation. (Not as
> > unsuitable as MIDI, but still very poor).
> 
> I agree that no miracles should be expected from MusicXML. But it has 
> helped me to speed up export from MuseScore to LilyPond in cases when I 
> needed it. And there is still enough room for improving MusicXML support 
> both from/to LilyPond and from/to MuseScore. So the total situation might 
> improve in future.
 "might improve" is scant comfort to someone who has spent hours putting
music into Sibelius, say, only to find that its idea of MusicXML is
unreadable by musicxml2ly. For that reason I have tried to make an
importer for MusicXML in Denemo which always gets the notes, not matter
how much badly written the file. Even so, I have had to hand edit in a
12/8 time signature to the MusicXML output of one of these files to
avoid a ridiculous amount of tidying up. It simply wasn't there.

 By contrast, there is a one-to-one correspondence between the notes,
ornaments, dynamics and so on that you see in Denemo and a bit of
LilyPond syntax that represents it. So, for example if you execute the
Scheme:
(d-Timer 100 "(d-QuickLilyPondPart)")
then every 100 ms Denemo will update the output LilyPond syntax for the
part you are working on, and clicking on Engrave in Frescobaldi will
re-engrave the file that includes it. Not a workflow that I personally
use, but I just tried it out and it works as expected.

Richard










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Re: Best support programs for Lilypond

[Martin Tarenskeen]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016, David Wright wrote:


Putting this interpretation on the OP, I omitted one of my methods
which is not a supporting _program_, but none the less a great
accelerator.


I would like to add: IMO the biggest speed accelerator is creating lots 
and lots of different scores with whatever tool you prefer. Anything you 
do often will improve your skills using that particular tool and your 
production speed will increase dramatically.


--

MT

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Re: Best support programs for Lilypond

[Martin Tarenskeen]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016, Richard Shann wrote:


Although Denemo is a GUI it can be set up to let you type in music using
pretty much the same keystrokes as with a text editor typing LilyPond
syntax.


I have heard many positive things about the power of Denemo. But everytime 
I decided to give it a try, I soon gave up because I just didn't like the 
interface and wasn't able to find my workflow in it.


Personal taste I guess.
I'm very happy with Gvim, Frescobaldi, and MuseScore and don't need much 
more options.



I would be wary of any approach using MusicXML as a conversion format as
it is not a format well-suited to representing music notation. (Not as
unsuitable as MIDI, but still very poor).


I agree that no miracles should be expected from MusicXML. But it has 
helped me to speed up export from MuseScore to LilyPond in cases when I 
needed it. And there is still enough room for improving MusicXML support 
both from/to LilyPond and from/to MuseScore. So the total situation might 
improve in future. But that's a different topic.


--

MT


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Re: Best support programs for Lilypond

[David Wright]

On Sun 06 Mar 2016 at 12:06:51 (+), Richard Shann wrote:
> On Sun, 2016-03-06 at 09:43 +0100, Martin Tarenskeen wrote:
> > On Sun, 6 Mar 2016, Stan Mulder wrote:
> > 
> > > Just wondering how to achieve the best output with supporting programs 
> > > when
> > > working with Lilypond. I find Frescobaldi a huge leap forward in using
> > > Lilypond. Frescobaldi increases productivity many times.
> > >
> > > Are there any other programs I should be using to speed the notation 
> > > process?
> > 
> > Also you can use a GUI score editor like Finale, Sibelius, or, if you like 
> > many of us prefer free Open Source software, use MuseScore. Then you can 
> > export as MusicXML, and then import this in Frescobaldi (uses 
> > musicxml2ly). I find MuseScore easier/faster for composing and arranging 
> > music, but frescobaldi/lilypond easier/faster to create publishing quality 
> > good looking scores.
> 
> I would be wary of any approach using MusicXML as a conversion format as
> it is not a format well-suited to representing music notation. (Not as
> unsuitable as MIDI, but still very poor). People have reported simply
> being unable to import files due to variations in the interpretation of
> the MusicXML "standard".

I wouldn't disagree with you there. However, in _my_ interpretation of
the OP, I think MusicXML should be able to copy with transporting just
the note pitches and durations from one's chosen fastest input method
into LilyPond files for the actual typesetting.

Putting this interpretation on the OP, I omitted one of my methods
which is not a supporting _program_, but none the less a great
accelerator. My wife arranges music but is LP-illiterate. However, she
is very proficient at typing LP's pitches and durations, one bar per
line, and the basic lyrics, with very few mistakes, so that's where I
get to start from.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Best support programs for Lilypond

[Richard Shann]

On Sun, 2016-03-06 at 09:43 +0100, Martin Tarenskeen wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 6 Mar 2016, Stan Mulder wrote:
> 
> > Just wondering how to achieve the best output with supporting programs when
> > working with Lilypond. I find Frescobaldi a huge leap forward in using
> > Lilypond. Frescobaldi increases productivity many times.
> >
> > Are there any other programs I should be using to speed the notation 
> > process?
> 
> To speed up things some people prefer "more" others prefer "less".
> 
> The "less" method: Use a spartanic but superfast texteditor like vim/gvim 
> or emacs. Especially experienced editor users, often geeky programmers, 
> find this the fastest way
> 
> The "more" method: You already experienced the joy of using Frescobaldi.
> Denemo is another GUI based program to create Lilypond scores.

Although Denemo is a GUI it can be set up to let you type in music using
pretty much the same keystrokes as with a text editor typing LilyPond
syntax. So you get the same speed as typing but can see the notes
typeset as you enter them. What is not widely known by the followers of
this list is that Denemo allows you to generate the raw LilyPond music
for each movement and for each part as LilyPond syntax into separate
files using a single keystroke. This means that you can use \include
commands to work with the LilyPond syntax in Frescobaldi for everything
other than the raw music data while keeping a typeset view for the
actual notes, marks etc.

> 
> Also you can use a GUI score editor like Finale, Sibelius, or, if you like 
> many of us prefer free Open Source software, use MuseScore. Then you can 
> export as MusicXML, and then import this in Frescobaldi (uses 
> musicxml2ly). I find MuseScore easier/faster for composing and arranging 
> music, but frescobaldi/lilypond easier/faster to create publishing quality 
> good looking scores.

I would be wary of any approach using MusicXML as a conversion format as
it is not a format well-suited to representing music notation. (Not as
unsuitable as MIDI, but still very poor). People have reported simply
being unable to import files due to variations in the interpretation of
the MusicXML "standard".

In any case, ex-users of Sibelius have told me that Denemo is many times
quicker for entering music ... OTOH, another ex user of the very same
program told me that "it is not apparent how to change the pitch of a
note" in Denemo (answer: you press the new note name a,b,c..) so it does
depend on your temperament.

Richard






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Re: Best support programs for Lilypond

[Martin Tarenskeen]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2016, Stan Mulder wrote:


Just wondering how to achieve the best output with supporting programs when
working with Lilypond. I find Frescobaldi a huge leap forward in using
Lilypond. Frescobaldi increases productivity many times.

Are there any other programs I should be using to speed the notation process?


To speed up things some people prefer "more" others prefer "less".

The "less" method: Use a spartanic but superfast texteditor like vim/gvim 
or emacs. Especially experienced editor users, often geeky programmers, 
find this the fastest way


The "more" method: You already experienced the joy of using Frescobaldi.
Denemo is another GUI based program to create Lilypond scores.

Also you can use a GUI score editor like Finale, Sibelius, or, if you like 
many of us prefer free Open Source software, use MuseScore. Then you can 
export as MusicXML, and then import this in Frescobaldi (uses 
musicxml2ly). I find MuseScore easier/faster for composing and arranging 
music, but frescobaldi/lilypond easier/faster to create publishing quality 
good looking scores.


--

MT


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Re: Best support programs for Lilypond

[David Wright]

On Sun 06 Mar 2016 at 00:58:55 (+), Stan Mulder wrote:
> Just wondering how to achieve the best output with supporting programs when
> working with Lilypond. I find Frescobaldi a huge leap forward in using
> Lilypond. Frescobaldi increases productivity many times. 
> 
> Are there any other programs I should be using to speed the notation process?

If someone has gone to the trouble of entering the notes and producing
a midi file, I find rosegarden useful to translate the .midi into .ly
format. (I've had less success with midi2ly.) I fish out just the notes
and trash everything else.

The output from rosegarden is in absolute notation and sometimes in the
"wrong" key. ly is a useful program that is able to convert absolute
to relative notation (my preference for vocal music) and to transpose.

Obviously it helps to be really proficient at driving your editor.
For example, I can happily type a couple of hundred bars in my
"canonical style" barely taking my eye off the score, but navigating
the result would be horrendous without the
  \barNumberCheck #135 | % sopranoii
markers I use every five bars. Adding those would be tedious and error
prone without the automation of (in my case) emacs. But editors are an
area of individual taste firmly held.

Because I work a lot with vocal music (few parts in long lines), I
use consistent names for the voices and have "potted" midi-generating
include files so that I can add, for example,
\include "Midi-ssattb.ily"
at the end of the parts and automatically generate seven midi files,
one tutti and six with each part highlighted in turn. That allows me
to rapidly proof-read each part by following the score while playing
the respective midi file; much quicker than trying to compare the
preview and original scores side by side.

Hope something in there might help...

Cheers,
David.

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Best support programs for Lilypond

[Stan Mulder]

Just wondering how to achieve the best output with supporting programs when
working with Lilypond. I find Frescobaldi a huge leap forward in using
Lilypond. Frescobaldi increases productivity many times. 

Are there any other programs I should be using to speed the notation process?




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