Re: GDP: church rests
On 17 Nov 2007, at 03:52, Graham Percival wrote: So what should the multi-measure rest symbol k |-| be called? I couldn't really pick out an answer from this discussion, so we'll just keep the current "church rests". Since it mentions longa and breve in parentheses, I think it's fine. The glossary makes it clear that this is a lilypond-specific term, anyway. If you object to this, please see the current GDP docs and make a specific suggestion as to how we should change them. I think you can drop the "Church rest" term, as nobody seems to know it outside LilyPond. Perhaps make a section "deprecated" for searching purposes with a reference. Hindemith just calls it "rests longer than one measure", so multi- measure or multimeasure rests seems fine. Hans Åberg ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: GDP: church rests
Hans Aberg wrote: So what should the multi-measure rest symbol k |-| be called? I couldn't really pick out an answer from this discussion, so we'll just keep the current "church rests". Since it mentions longa and breve in parentheses, I think it's fine. The glossary makes it clear that this is a lilypond-specific term, anyway. If you object to this, please see the current GDP docs and make a specific suggestion as to how we should change them. Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: GDP: church rests
On 15 Nov 2007, at 18:34, Francisco Vila wrote: For the term "church rests", Finale for example simply says "use symbols for multimeasure rests up to nine measures" Hindemith's book has the diagram above, so it is clear that he would use it for rests of length 9 measures. Here I do not advocate for the number 9, but for the word "symbols" -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) http://www.paconet.org So what should the multi-measure rest symbol k |-| be called? Hans Åberg ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: GDP: church rests
2007/11/15, Hans Aberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On 15 Nov 2007, at 17:19, Francisco Vila wrote: > > For the term "church rests", Finale for example simply says "use > > symbols for multimeasure rests up to nine measures" > > > > Hindemith's book has the diagram above, so it is clear that he would > use it for rests of length 9 measures. > >Hans Åberg Here I do not advocate for the number 9, but for the word "symbols" -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) http://www.paconet.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: GDP: church rests
On 15 Nov 2007, at 17:19, Francisco Vila wrote: Hindemith suggests using |---| with a number over for rests of nine measures or longer. 9 |---| The default rule in LilyPond is to do this for 11 measures or longer, see section "Multi measure rests" in the manual for information on how to change this value. For the term "church rests", Finale for example simply says "use symbols for multimeasure rests up to nine measures" Hindemith's book has the diagram above, so it is clear that he would use it for rests of length 9 measures. Hans Åberg ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: GDP: church rests
2007/11/15, Hans Aberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On 15 Nov 2007, at 14:24, Mats Bengtsson wrote: > > >> Hindemith suggests using |---| with a number over for rests of > >> nine measures or longer. > >> 9 > >> |---| > > The default rule in LilyPond is to do this for 11 measures or > > longer, see > > section "Multi measure rests" in the manual for information on how to > > change this value. For the term "church rests", Finale for example simply says "use symbols for multimeasure rests up to nine measures" -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) http://www.paconet.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: GDP: church rests
On 15 Nov 2007, at 14:24, Mats Bengtsson wrote: Hindemith suggests using |---| with a number over for rests of nine measures or longer. 9 |---| The default rule in LilyPond is to do this for 11 measures or longer, see section "Multi measure rests" in the manual for information on how to change this value. Blatter uses it (in parts) for rests 2 measures or longer, but broken up by section marks. For example: 2 (B) 6 ... |---| | |---| | ... And one may add measure numbers (and cue marks). Hans Åberg ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: GDP: church rests
Hans Aberg wrote: Hindemith suggests using |---| with a number over for rests of nine measures or longer. 9 |---| The default rule in LilyPond is to do this for 11 measures or longer, see section "Multi measure rests" in the manual for information on how to change this value. /Mats ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: GDP: church rests
On 15 Nov 2007, at 00:57, Graham Percival wrote: GDP: http://web.uvic.ca/~gperciva/ Take a look at NR 1.2.2 Writing rests: Multi measure rests is "church rests" a real musical term? There's some question over whether we should use "church rests" or "Kirchenpausen". Mensural notation preceded modern notation (ca 1600), but indicated rests are modern. I have dictionary that calls them Length UK english US English French 1/2 minim rest half restla demi-pause 1 semibreve rest whole rest la pause 2 breve rest la double pause It does not say for length 4, but in mensural notation, the note is called "longa". In fact http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rest_%28music%29 just calls it "long rest". For shorter rests, in English, one just uses the note name plus "pause". For example Length UK english US English 1/64 hemidemisemiquaver rest sixty-fourth rest In French, the 1/4 rest is called "le soupir", and the other rests are given fraction names of that. For example Length French 1/64 le seizième de soupir Hindemith suggests using |---| with a number over for rests of nine measures or longer. 9 |---| Hans Åberg ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: GDP: church rests
Graham Percival wrote: GDP: http://web.uvic.ca/~gperciva/ Take a look at NR 1.2.2 Writing rests: Multi measure rests is "church rests" a real musical term? There's some question over whether we should use "church rests" or "Kirchenpausen". Cheers, - Graham I've never seen reference to "church rests" apart from the Lilypond docs. Why not just refer to "longa and breve rests"? Brett ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
GDP: church rests
GDP: http://web.uvic.ca/~gperciva/ Take a look at NR 1.2.2 Writing rests: Multi measure rests is "church rests" a real musical term? There's some question over whether we should use "church rests" or "Kirchenpausen". Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Church Rests
2007/10/19, Eyolf Østrem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > They are completely usual in orchestral parts since I can remember. > > The signs, yes (they go back to mensural notation in the fourteenth > century), but the name? I've never heard it before, and Grove doesn't > mention it... It's a germanism from Kirchenpause ; better ideas warmly appreciated. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Church Rests
On 10/19/07 9:04 AM, "Eyolf Østrem" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 19.10.2007 (16:24), Francisco Vila wrote: >> 2007/10/19, Trevor Daniels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >>> >>> In the section on multi-measure rests the manual talks about >>> "church rests", meaning the use of increasing numbers of >>> little rectangles to indicate how many measures are included >>> in the multi-measure rest. In this a generally accepted >>> musical term, or one invented for lily? >> >> They are completely usual in orchestral parts since I can remember. > > The signs, yes (they go back to mensural notation in the fourteenth > century), but the name? I've never heard it before, and Grove doesn't > mention it... As Eyolf pointed out, this style of rests dates back to mensural notation. The numbers were added later because people had forgotten that the specific size and shapes of the rectangles were more than silly decoration. (This forgetfulness started happening at about the same time the old maxima, longa, and breve note lengths "officially" went out of fashion. Obviously, the two events are related.) To corroborate Eyolf's observation, I looked in my copy of the Grove Dictionary (the 1880 edition, which I downloaded from Archive.org, since it's out of copyright). Toward the end of the article on notation, I found this gem about "Measured chaunt", the accompanying illustrations of which can only be what we now call white mensural notation. "The figures of these notes [used for "Measured chaunt", ca. 1370], and their corresponding rests, given in one of the earliest works on Music ever issued from the press -- the 'Practica musicae' of Franchinus Gafurius, printed at Milan, in 1496 -- differed little from the forms retained in use until the close of the 16th century." Without the numbers, I'd be tempted to call this rest style "neo-mensural" ... although the whole and half rests are too wide (and therefore modern) for that style, and they are no longer used to indicate the mode (the proprortions maxima:longa and longa:brevis). Perhaps we should just call it "old style", and be done with it. Regards, Kurtis ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Church Rests
On 19.10.2007 (16:24), Francisco Vila wrote: > 2007/10/19, Trevor Daniels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > In the section on multi-measure rests the manual talks about > > "church rests", meaning the use of increasing numbers of > > little rectangles to indicate how many measures are included > > in the multi-measure rest. In this a generally accepted > > musical term, or one invented for lily? > > They are completely usual in orchestral parts since I can remember. The signs, yes (they go back to mensural notation in the fourteenth century), but the name? I've never heard it before, and Grove doesn't mention it... eyolf -- Creditor, n.: A man who has a better memory than a debtor. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Church Rests
2007/10/19, Trevor Daniels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > In the section on multi-measure rests the manual talks about > "church rests", meaning the use of increasing numbers of > little rectangles to indicate how many measures are included > in the multi-measure rest. In this a generally accepted > musical term, or one invented for lily? They are completely usual in orchestral parts since I can remember. Possibly their origin are the choral parts, but as you probably know, choral scores are now usually read in full score, not parts. Church rests were best read in past centuries when the typical written note durations were longer than now are. I can be wrong, though. -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) http://www.paconet.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Church Rests
In the section on multi-measure rests the manual talks about "church rests", meaning the use of increasing numbers of little rectangles to indicate how many measures are included in the multi-measure rest. In this a generally accepted musical term, or one invented for lily? Or is there a better term? Whatever name we use, I suggest it be added to the glossary. Trevor D ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
