Re: Denemo-feedback
On Wed, 2013-12-04 at 23:37 +0100, Johan Vromans wrote: Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes: At the moment this AI step is the simplest possible, it goes through the durations that you played assigning them to the nearest note lengths using only whole-note 1/256th note and dotted versions of them (no triplet values have been entered in the table of durations). I assume this is customizable to, e.g., whole-note...1/8th or something similar. I guess you mean the list of durations and the algorithm to choose between them? That is still in C but it is pretty trivial to export it so the user can play around with the AI bit. But even if only 80% of the durations are correct, this would already be helpful (for me, in some situations). I'm not a piano player. I can, however, enter notes using a (MIDI) keyboard in a slow and rhythmless pace, and I can tap the correct rhythm on a single key. I'd love to combine these two inputs. Well, I think it would be a good idea to test this out before I start writing code to support it. You can do this by writing a melody that is all on one note. That is, enter a piece just by tapping on one note. Then look to see how much of the durations it got right, and see if accepting the correct ones and altering the wrong ones would be a practical entry method, ignoring the fact that all the notes are the same pitch. (You can, in any case add these over the top afterwards just by placing the cursor on the first note and playing the notes on the MIDI keyboard at your own pace). I'm sure the first thing you will want is to start playing with the AI - are you able to write simple Scheme? If so I will break this out for you to play with sooner rather than later. Richard ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Denemo-feedback
Am 05.12.2013 10:48, schrieb Richard Shann: I guess you mean the list of durations and the algorithm to choose between them? I think he simply wants to choose from different quantization values before playing. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Denemo-feedback
On Thu, 2013-12-05 at 11:21 +0100, Urs Liska wrote: Am 05.12.2013 10:48, schrieb Richard Shann: I guess you mean the list of durations and the algorithm to choose between them? I think he simply wants to choose from different quantization values before playing. Yes, you would do that by changing the list of durations and hence what they are assigned to. As David points out in this thread, more sophisticated approaches would be needed to get something useful. I am very happy to provide the interface but don't expect to be working on the algorithm any time soon. Richard ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Denemo-feedback
Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org writes: Am 05.12.2013 10:48, schrieb Richard Shann: I guess you mean the list of durations and the algorithm to choose between them? I think he simply wants to choose from different quantization values before playing. Yes. When I know my piece is only going to have 1/8th notes and longer the algorithm doesn't need to take smaller amounts into consideration. -- Johan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Denemo-feedback
On Wed, 2013-12-04 at 08:23 +0100, Johan Vromans wrote: Richard Shann richard.sh...@virgin.net writes: Right now I have a new entry option nearly complete - playing on a MIDI keyboard and then entering the rhythm. By hitting a MIDI keyboard key in the desired rhythm? Well, that is what is interesting: if you played in on a MIDI keyboard in perfect rhythm then you would be able to hit the accept key to accept the rhythm Denemo has computed. Indeed, if it was going to be perfect, you wouldn't need any second step, you could just go straight on to adding non-music features - repeat bar lines, rehearsal marks or WHY. What happens in practice is that the rhythm computed from your playing is full of errors and an artificial intelligence (AI) step is needed to get close to something that would be acceptable. (It has to be near perfect to make it worth giving to the user to check over, as fixing mistakes is far more costly than playing in the music). At the moment this AI step is the simplest possible, it goes through the durations that you played assigning them to the nearest note lengths using only whole-note 1/256th note and dotted versions of them (no triplet values have been entered in the table of durations). There are then two ways to go: Write some Scheme procedures to work out what the user likely wants, asking for the user to intervene where necessary Let the user start typing in the actual durations (on the numeric keypad) and learn from the first few what the likely durations of the succeeding notes are. So, once you have covered the rhythmic variety that you have in the passage, you would be able to go over to just hitting Return to accept Denemo's idea of the rhythm. This could include stuff like staccato markings, so that once you had shown it what you mean by a certain duration it could guess between say, a quarter note, a staccato quarter note and an eighth note followed by eighth note rest. At the moment, you can type in the duration on the numeric keypad or hit Return to accept the suggested duration. The note is played as you do this, so you can actually hear the piece as you go through it if you keep time. You have to enter rests, staccato markings etc. yourself. I will need to gain more experience of this system before deciding where to go next. The stuff is in Denemo's git now though, if folk like to experiment. The table of durations and the decision calculation using it is not currently available to Scheme, but if someone with Scheme wants to start experimenting it could be made available without problem, just ask. The system also works with imported MIDI files, which can have perfect rhythm if machine generated. Richard ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Denemo-feedback
Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes: At the moment this AI step is the simplest possible, it goes through the durations that you played assigning them to the nearest note lengths using only whole-note 1/256th note and dotted versions of them (no triplet values have been entered in the table of durations). I assume this is customizable to, e.g., whole-note...1/8th or something similar. But even if only 80% of the durations are correct, this would already be helpful (for me, in some situations). I'm not a piano player. I can, however, enter notes using a (MIDI) keyboard in a slow and rhythmless pace, and I can tap the correct rhythm on a single key. I'd love to combine these two inputs. -- Johan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Denemo-feedback
On Tue, 2013-12-03 at 01:20 +0100, Noeck wrote: But the feedback I get about Denemo is almost entirely positive - those who find it unusable just quietly switch to something else, out of politeness I guess. Most unhelpful! Hi Richard, several times now, I looked at Denemo (about twice a year for the last 4 years). So I can only share a first impression. As background info: I probably always will prefer text input and I like Frescobaldi very much. But I think that a GUI is definitely needed for the average musician. My approach: A GUI program should be self explaining - I did not read the manual. Denemo version 0.9.2 (latest ubuntu). sigh!, that is just over two years out of date. Like LilyPond we have now started posting binaries for GNU/Linux on our website. I was using ancient LilyPond versions until I finally posted to the LilyPond bug list and got told about not depending on my distro for a LilyPond installer. Is there anything we can do to alert people who would not want to be using ancient versions if only they knew? You asked for feedback, so here is my first impression (+ positive, - neg.): Note entry: - So I open Denemo and I get asked about the input method (for most of them I don't know what they mean). I chose simple (this takes minutes, if I choose Lilypond, it hangs completely), but I am not intelligent enough to directly figure out how it works. I can enter notes with the mouse and hitting enter. Why can't I just click? The different cursors (for pitch and time-position) and their colours confuse me, why not one? I would find it more intuitive if I could click on a note to change it and between notes to insert something. Here, it is difficult to respond. So much has changed and I only have hazy recollections of what the program was like then... I think all of those things are long fixed. + If I click on a note, it gets marked and I can add articulations, that's nice. Delete, arrows, etc. work as expected. I can change clefs and the key by clicking on them, that's good. - I can not click on the barlines, barnumbers, slurs, beams, clef-changes to edit them This remains true, except that nowadays you can click on slurs and other things in the final typeset and do things to them there. I think of the clicking with the mouse to do things as just something that gets people started, for serious use I expect people to use the keyboard, as it is quicker. (Perhaps I should add that for historical reasons, making things like barlines, trills, etc. clickable is comparatively hard - the display is still largely just a drawing as it was in 1999 (?) when the program was created). - I can add a slur, but it is not shown where I selected the notes but half a measure later. ??? sounds bizarre - I thought, maybe I can move things (thats where a GUI could be advantageous over the text input), but dragging does not work This is a GUI not a WYSIWYG display. That is, what you see is what you mean, you can see what music you have entered, but not what the LilyPond will typeset to look like. And that is, of course, absolutely fundamental, and is why Denemo is unusual. You are trading WYSIWYG for quality of typesetting - if you typeset as you enter the music either you have to wait a long time between each keystroke or you have to put up with poor typesetting which needs manual adjustments. Look: - Why don't you use Fetafont symbols for the buttons and for objects (like the time signature)? It would look much nicer. a good idea - I think they have been creeping in over the last couple of years. - I see a tilde ~ in front of each duration button symbol. - The ~. symbol has no effect - It also would make a better impression, if there were lots of toolbars (not that I like it, but I would give the impression that this is a powerful tool) I think all that is ancient history now. - There are so many menu items that I can only see 2 letters of each menu item. So I can only guess what's behind. ??? menus have been shortened (and deepened) a couple of times ... now we have a searchable command center; we cannot add every LilyPond feature into a hierarchical menu system. - The score 'preview' is very far from Lilyponds good quality, that reduces the fun factor (compared to Frescobaldi, where I see nice scores while working) On faster machines the LilyPond typeset can keep up (especially if you set it to typeset just a portion of the score). This feature did get announced on the LilyPond list. - Everytime I insert a new note, I hear a very strange sound (like broken speakers) but that's perhaps a linux-only-problem. Well, it is more specific than that, Denemo is mostly tested on GNU/Linux systems, but sound systems vary and I think they can require you to adjust the preferences - I certainly came across one case where someone had changed the sample rate (because they thought it would improve things) and the resultant mis-match
Re: Denemo-feedback
On Tue, 2013-12-03 at 01:20 +0100, Noeck wrote: several times now, I looked at Denemo (about twice a year for the last 4 years). So I can only share a first impression. As background info: I probably always will prefer text input and I like Frescobaldi very much. But I think that a GUI is definitely needed for the average musician. My approach: A GUI program should be self explaining - I did not read the manual. Denemo version 0.9.2 (latest ubuntu). HI Noeck I'm in the same situation: I'm more than happy with text input and Frescobaldi, but I get interested in Denemo because I want to spread the use of LilyPond and I think that we need a GUI for this. Denemo is improved a lot in the last months. One interesting feature of Denemo (missing in Frescobaldi, at the moment) is instant compile. I'm not using Denemo, sometimes I compile it and do a few tests just to check the translation. But I think that it's worth trying it again. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Denemo-feedback
Federico Bruni fedel...@gmail.com schrieb: On Tue, 2013-12-03 at 01:20 +0100, Noeck wrote: several times now, I looked at Denemo (about twice a year for the last 4 years). So I can only share a first impression. As background info: I probably always will prefer text input and I like Frescobaldi very much. But I think that a GUI is definitely needed for the average musician. My approach: A GUI program should be self explaining - I did not read the manual. Denemo version 0.9.2 (latest ubuntu). HI Noeck I'm in the same situation: I'm more than happy with text input and Frescobaldi, but I get interested in Denemo because I want to spread the use of LilyPond and I think that we need a GUI for this. Denemo is improved a lot in the last months. One interesting feature of Denemo (missing in Frescobaldi, at the moment) is instant compile. It's on the wish list for some time. Another thing which will probably make instant compilation easier to realize is moving the music view to svg. On the long run this will lead to be able to graphically edit the result from a lilypond run, inserting the respective tweaks into the input files. Of course it will be a long way until that's near comprehensive, but if we start with tweaking slurs, fixing pitches or drawing spanners it will be more than a good start. I'm not using Denemo, sometimes I compile it and do a few tests just to check the translation. But I think that it's worth trying it again. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Denemo-feedback
Hi Richard, sorry for the old version. I now installed Denemo 1.1.0 from the website. It can't use lilypond with it for some reason (it crashes when I want to print) but I can look around and compare. Many things have improved a lot: The sound plays nicely, the buttons show no artefacts, the menus are readable. I like the feature that one can click on the key signature to increase the sharps or flats. The look is still similar to Windows 95. On the website I saw something gnome-like but not in my installed version. Is that available? For my taste, there are too much buttons with a similar meaning. E.g. all the slur and bracket buttons could be simplified as Frescobaldi does: the slur spans the selected range of notes. Also, the buttons to insert a note and change the current note to a different duration duplicate things. Wouldn't it make sense to merge them (two different modes or a shift+click for changing). It would also be convenient to move the current note up or down with the up/down key (it moves only the cursor). I am still confused by the cursors, one | marking the point in time and a square marking the current note/pitch. It is sometimes green, sometimes blue. It is not clear to me how a new measure is started. At the beginning it worked (like in LP) automatically but later I had measures with more than 4 beats (coloured in read) and the automatic bar line was missing. The menus are very full which is probably a result of putting everything in that is possible (which is good to have). But an intelligent reduction would be needed (imho). E.g. for slurs you have to search a while: Notes/Rests Markings Slurs Begin slur The menues are difficult to browser, because the tooltip/hint is often very large and covers the menu. What is the reason for not chosing LP shortcuts for input: (=start slur, )=end it, 8=eigth note, r=rest etc. It would train people a bit to this well designed representation. , works to go down one octave, but ' does not go up. The dot button and the accidental buttons as well as key signatures and clefs work nicely. I am still not convinced but it is definitely in a better state and there were many improvements. Cheers, Joram ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Denemo-feedback
Hi Richard, It can't use lilypond with it for some reason (it crashes I trust you don't mean that Denemo itself crashes? Just that LilyPond No Denemo does not crash. But the Print View tells me: INVALID! Lilypond can not typeset this score. In the Edit-Preferences-Externals tab you can set the path to lilypond. I believe I have seen this failure to find LilyPond too when testing the GNU/Linux binary, I don't know what that is due to. The lilypond path was set correctly in the preferences. In fact, it just tells me that it fails and it does not show the preview. But I can export a pdf. So LP is found somehow. The look is still similar to Windows 95. On the website I saw something gnome-like but not in my installed version. Is that available? I don't understand this comment - what is the link? http://www.denemo.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/display7.png My version looks more like this: http://www.denemo.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/display3.png For my taste, there are too much buttons By buttons are you referring to those in palettes? - yes they are nearly all displayed at first. But if you close them down or hide individual buttons (right click) they will not come back. That's what I mean. They come back each time I start the program. ' should be octave up, do you have a non-qwerty keyboard? I have a German keyboard layout which means the ä is my ' ;) that works. Cheers, Joram ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Denemo-feedback
On Tue, 2013-12-03 at 17:37 +0100, Noeck wrote:
Hi Richard,
sorry for the old version. I now installed Denemo 1.1.0 from the
website. It can't use lilypond with it for some reason (it crashes
I trust you don't mean that Denemo itself crashes? Just that LilyPond
fails to execute? Without LilyPond running from inside Denemo you cannot
navigate by clicking on the typeset score, drag slur shapes, etc...
when
I want to print) but I can look around and compare.
In the Edit-Preferences-Externals tab you can set the path to
lilypond. I believe I have seen this failure to find LilyPond too when
testing the GNU/Linux binary, I don't know what that is due to.
Many things have improved a lot: The sound plays nicely, the buttons
show no artefacts, the menus are readable.
I like the feature that one can click on the key signature to increase
the sharps or flats.
The look is still similar to Windows 95. On the website I saw something
gnome-like but not in my installed version. Is that available?
I don't understand this comment - what is the link?
For my taste, there are too much buttons
By buttons are you referring to those in palettes? - yes they are
nearly all displayed at first. But if you close them down or hide
individual buttons (right click) they will not come back. I keep just
one line of buttons in the General Palette with those things I like to
click on rather than type a key-press.
with a similar meaning. E.g.
all the slur and bracket buttons could be simplified as Frescobaldi
does: the slur spans the selected range of notes.
The customizability of Denemo means that such a feature is easily added
by the sort of user that customizes. I did even create such
mouse-shortcuts some years ago, but found that for practical purposes
hitting 7 to start a slur and then 8 to extend and 9 to reduce the slur
was just so much quicker. (You set your own custom shortcuts by right
clicking on the menu item).
Also, the buttons to
insert a note and change the current note to a different duration
duplicate things. Wouldn't it make sense to merge them (two different
modes
ah, yes, Denemo had modes at one time too. Modal programs are pretty
universally decried for tripping you up.
or a shift+click for changing).
The combinations in use by default are Digit, Shift-Digit and Letter,
Shift-Letter for durations and note names respectively, for
inserting/changing respectively.
It would also be convenient to
move the current note up or down with the up/down key (it moves only the
cursor).
You could set that up but then you would need a different key press to
move the cursor rather than the note.
I believe there is still a mouse-drag of notes up and down (setting the
caps lock I think), but I wonder how much it is used.
Mouse gestures can be customized by the user, but then they get in the
way of more serious use (no one seriously enters music using a mouse -
it is unbelievably slow).
That was one of the reasons for that Profile dialog that was the first
thing in the old 0.9.6 - if you chose mouse user you would get
something like that. LilyPond User on the other hand would get more
familiar short cuts and, more importantly, would get things like \repeat
volta 2 { . } which to a user unaware of LilyPond is quite baffling
- they just want to put :| in the score.
I am still confused by the cursors, one | marking the point in time and
a square marking the current note/pitch. It is sometimes green,
sometimes blue.
yes, the colors reflect the fill of the bar - this is explained in that
first big tooltip on the main display area I think.
It is not clear to me how a new measure is started. At the beginning it
worked (like in LP) automatically but later I had measures with more
than 4 beats (coloured in read) and the automatic bar line was missing.
yes, Denemo does not stop you overfilling a bar if you want, but
LilyPond will not typeset them unless you issue the appropriate command.
If you enter notes in the middle of the bar Denemo will not bump other
notes into the next bar - usually that makes no sense, and would be very
annoying if you were adding notes just temporarily prior to deleting
some others - after all, it could hardly go and get them back again.
If such is a normal thing in your use you would want to set a short cut
on the Split the bar at the cursor command. You just select the menu
item and press the key you want as a short cut.
The menus are very full which is probably a result of putting everything
in that is possible
not everything by several orders of magnitude, but most things that
Denemo has are there, just a few are hidden (e.g. LilyPond style
repeats, because a novice would get in a mess).
(which is good to have). But an intelligent
reduction would be needed (imho). E.g. for slurs you have to search a
while: Notes/Rests Markings Slurs Begin slur
That is because until this release there was no other way of discovering
what the short cut was for
Re: Denemo-feedback
On Tue, 2013-12-03 at 19:57 +0100, Noeck wrote: Hi Richard, It can't use lilypond with it for some reason (it crashes I trust you don't mean that Denemo itself crashes? Just that LilyPond No Denemo does not crash. But the Print View tells me: INVALID! Lilypond can not typeset this score. In this case open the View-Lilypond window and right click and choose Print from visible LilyPond text, the start of the error will be highlighted in red, and the error message from LilyPond will appear in the LilyPond errors pane. You can move the cursor about in that pane and using the arrow keys and it should find the place in the Denemo score where something nasty has been introduced. If in doubt, please send me the file to look at. In the Edit-Preferences-Externals tab you can set the path to lilypond. I believe I have seen this failure to find LilyPond too when testing the GNU/Linux binary, I don't know what that is due to. The lilypond path was set correctly in the preferences. In fact, it just tells me that it fails and it does not show the preview. But I can export a pdf. So LP is found somehow. The look is still similar to Windows 95. On the website I saw something gnome-like but not in my installed version. Is that available? I don't understand this comment - what is the link? http://www.denemo.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/display7.png My version looks more like this: http://www.denemo.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/display3.png These old screen shots were perhaps made with different window managers. All that sort of stuff is dependent on the theme I think. I never pay attention to it myself, it is (AFAIK) not specific to Denemo. For my taste, there are too much buttons By buttons are you referring to those in palettes? - yes they are nearly all displayed at first. But if you close them down or hide individual buttons (right click) they will not come back. That's what I mean. They come back each time I start the program. I think you must have used Ctrl-C to quit the program, in which case the palette changes are not saved. ' should be octave up, do you have a non-qwerty keyboard? I have a German keyboard layout which means the ä is my ' ;) that works. Did you have to execute Save Command Set to make the change permanent? It should ask you as you quit... This is off-topic for the LilyPond list, so I will continue in private, but it is still very useful for me to see how the program appears to newcomers. Richard ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Denemo-feedback
Richard Shann richard.sh...@virgin.net writes: Right now I have a new entry option nearly complete - playing on a MIDI keyboard and then entering the rhythm. By hitting a MIDI keyboard key in the desired rhythm? -- Johan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
