Re: Forcing and preventing page-turns

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

>> Try a combination of page-count, system-count, systems-per-page,
>> min-systems-per-page, max-systems-per-page. And if all of that
>> doesn’t help, you might have to go to manual breaking.
> 
> Yes, I hadn't seen that entire armoury, so thanks for that.
> But it did surprise me that you get such different results
> when you tell it to do what it would have done anyway.

I agree. I wish that minimal-breaking, optimal-breaking, etc., gave me the 
results I expect, but mostly they don’t. I end up hand-breaking almost all my 
scores, once the content is finalized.

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Forcing and preventing page-turns

[David Wright]

On Sun 06 Nov 2016 at 14:31:24 (+0100), Simon Albrecht wrote:
> On 06.11.2016 14:26, David Wright wrote:
> >On Sat 05 Nov 2016 at 21:25:07 (+0100), Urs Liska wrote:
> >>Am 05.11.2016 um 21:20 schrieb David Sumbler:
> >>>It always seems to be a bit hit-and-miss for me when I try to arrange
> >>>the pagination of instrumental parts.  Reading the manual it isn't
> >>>clear to me how I can force page turns to occur *only* at the points I
> >>>choose.
> >>\override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.line-break-permission = ##f
> >>
> >>will prevent any automatic breaks.
> >>
> >>>Also, Lilypond doesn't like ending on an even-numbered page.  How can I
> >>>force it not to add an unnecessary extra page at the end of a part?
> >>>  The reason is that the part in question can fit on to 12 pages.  I
> >>>don't want it extended to 13 because that means an extra sheet of paper
> >>>and 3 blank pages at the end of the part.
> >>I don't know if there's a way to automatically achieve what you want,
> >>but you can always force the actual number of pages with
> >>
> >>\paper {
> >>   page-count = 12
> >>}
> >(I've just rechecked the following with 2.19.49)
> >
> >My experience with page-count is that all too often it causes LP to
> >set early pages too slackly, and then overfills the last page.
> 
> Try a combination of page-count, system-count, systems-per-page,
> min-systems-per-page, max-systems-per-page. And if all of that
> doesn’t help, you might have to go to manual breaking.

Yes, I hadn't seen that entire armoury, so thanks for that.
But it did surprise me that you get such different results
when you tell it to do what it would have done anyway.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Forcing and preventing page-turns

[Simon Albrecht]

On 06.11.2016 14:26, David Wright wrote:

On Sat 05 Nov 2016 at 21:25:07 (+0100), Urs Liska wrote:

Am 05.11.2016 um 21:20 schrieb David Sumbler:

It always seems to be a bit hit-and-miss for me when I try to arrange
the pagination of instrumental parts.  Reading the manual it isn't
clear to me how I can force page turns to occur *only* at the points I
choose.

\override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.line-break-permission = ##f

will prevent any automatic breaks.


Also, Lilypond doesn't like ending on an even-numbered page.  How can I
force it not to add an unnecessary extra page at the end of a part?
  The reason is that the part in question can fit on to 12 pages.  I
don't want it extended to 13 because that means an extra sheet of paper
and 3 blank pages at the end of the part.

I don't know if there's a way to automatically achieve what you want,
but you can always force the actual number of pages with

\paper {
   page-count = 12
}

(I've just rechecked the following with 2.19.49)

My experience with page-count is that all too often it causes LP to
set early pages too slackly, and then overfills the last page.


Try a combination of page-count, system-count, systems-per-page, 
min-systems-per-page, max-systems-per-page. And if all of that doesn’t 
help, you might have to go to manual breaking.


Best, Simon

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Re: Forcing and preventing page-turns

[David Wright]

On Sat 05 Nov 2016 at 21:25:07 (+0100), Urs Liska wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 05.11.2016 um 21:20 schrieb David Sumbler:
> > It always seems to be a bit hit-and-miss for me when I try to arrange
> > the pagination of instrumental parts.  Reading the manual it isn't
> > clear to me how I can force page turns to occur *only* at the points I
> > choose.
> 
> \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.line-break-permission = ##f
> 
> will prevent any automatic breaks.
> 
> >
> > Also, Lilypond doesn't like ending on an even-numbered page.  How can I
> > force it not to add an unnecessary extra page at the end of a part?
> >  The reason is that the part in question can fit on to 12 pages.  I
> > don't want it extended to 13 because that means an extra sheet of paper
> > and 3 blank pages at the end of the part.
> 
> I don't know if there's a way to automatically achieve what you want,
> but you can always force the actual number of pages with
> 
> \paper {
>   page-count = 12
> }

(I've just rechecked the following with 2.19.49)

My experience with page-count is that all too often it causes LP to
set early pages too slackly, and then overfills the last page.
Here's an example of the logs.

with%%page-count = 6   :

GNU LilyPond 2.19.49
Processing `back.ly'
Parsing...
Interpreting music...[8][16][24][32][40][48][56][64][72][80]
Preprocessing graphical objects...
Finding the ideal number of pages...
Fitting music on 6 or 7 pages...
Drawing systems...
Layout output to `/tmp/lilypond-tMciM6'...
Converting to `back-4staves.pdf'...
Deleting `/tmp/lilypond-tMciM6'...
Success: compilation successfully completed

Output is just how I want it, on six pages with three systems/page.

With   page-count = 6   :

GNU LilyPond 2.19.49
Processing `forced-back.ly'
Parsing...
Interpreting music...[8][16][24][32][40][48][56][64][72][80]
Preprocessing graphical objects...
programming error: number of pages is out of bounds
continuing, cross fingers
programming error: tried to space systems on a bad number of pages
continuing, cross fingers
Fitting music on 6 pages...
programming error: number of pages is out of bounds
continuing, cross fingers
programming error: tried to space systems on a bad number of pages
continuing, cross fingers
Drawing systems...
warning: compressing over-full page by 22.6 staff-spaces
warning: page 6 has been compressed
Layout output to `/tmp/lilypond-bXpCvR'...
Converting to `forced-back-4staves.pdf'...
Deleting `/tmp/lilypond-bXpCvR'...
Success: compilation successfully completed

Output is on six pages with four systems squashed onto the last page.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Forcing and preventing page-turns

[David Sumbler]

Sorry - '#ff' was a typo in my email, but not in my Lilypond files.

David

On Sun, 2016-11-06 at 13:42 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> David Sumbler  writes:
> 
> > 
> > Thanks for the help with the problem of getting page-turns and
> > number
> > of pages as I want them.
> > 
> > \override Score-NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-turn-permission = #ff
> > seems to work as required.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, putting 'page-count = 12' in the \paper block of the
> > relevant part did not solve the problem of an unnecessary 13th page
> > being printed.
> > 
> > However, I tried using
> > \override Score-NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-break-permission = #ff
> > and
> > specifying where not only page-turns but all page-breaks should
> > come.
> >  This did enable me to force the whole final passage of music to be
> > printed on page 12 only.
> Really #ff instead of ##f ?  The former is the same as \ff in a
> number
> of contexts, the latter is a false boolean.  Only the latter is
> guaranteed to behave as "false" in conditions.
> 

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Re: Forcing and preventing page-turns

[David Kastrup]

David Sumbler  writes:

> Thanks for the help with the problem of getting page-turns and number
> of pages as I want them.
>
> \override Score-NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-turn-permission = #ff
> seems to work as required.
>
> Unfortunately, putting 'page-count = 12' in the \paper block of the
> relevant part did not solve the problem of an unnecessary 13th page
> being printed.
>
> However, I tried using
> \override Score-NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-break-permission = #ff
> and
> specifying where not only page-turns but all page-breaks should come.
>  This did enable me to force the whole final passage of music to be
> printed on page 12 only.

Really #ff instead of ##f ?  The former is the same as \ff in a number
of contexts, the latter is a false boolean.  Only the latter is
guaranteed to behave as "false" in conditions.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Forcing and preventing page-turns

[David Sumbler]

Thanks for the help with the problem of getting page-turns and number
of pages as I want them.

\override Score-NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-turn-permission = #ff
seems to work as required.

Unfortunately, putting 'page-count = 12' in the \paper block of the
relevant part did not solve the problem of an unnecessary 13th page
being printed.

However, I tried using
\override Score-NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-break-permission = #ff
and
specifying where not only page-turns but all page-breaks should come.
 This did enable me to force the whole final passage of music to be
printed on page 12 only.

David


On Sat, 2016-11-05 at 21:25 +0100, Urs Liska wrote:
> 
> Am 05.11.2016 um 21:20 schrieb David Sumbler:
> > 
> > It always seems to be a bit hit-and-miss for me when I try to arrange
> > the pagination of instrumental parts.  Reading the manual it isn't
> > clear to me how I can force page turns to occur *only* at the points I
> > choose.
> \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.line-break-permission = ##f
> 
> will prevent any automatic breaks.
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Also, Lilypond doesn't like ending on an even-numbered page.  How can I
> > force it not to add an unnecessary extra page at the end of a part?
> >  The reason is that the part in question can fit on to 12 pages.  I
> > don't want it extended to 13 because that means an extra sheet of paper
> > and 3 blank pages at the end of the part.
> I don't know if there's a way to automatically achieve what you want,
> but you can always force the actual number of pages with
> 
> \paper {
>   page-count = 12
> }
> 
> HTH
> Urs

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Re: Forcing and preventing page-turns

[Thomas Morley]

2016-11-05 22:39 GMT+01:00 Urs Liska :
>
>
> Am 05.11.2016 um 22:38 schrieb Thomas Morley:
>> 2016-11-05 21:26 GMT+01:00 Urs Liska :
>>>
>>> Am 05.11.2016 um 21:25 schrieb Urs Liska:
 \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.line-break-permission = ##f

 will prevent any automatic breaks.
>>> Ah, sorry, and of course
>>>
>>> \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-break-permission = ##f
>>> and
>>> \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-turn-permission = ##f
>>>
>>> will do the same for page breaks and page turns.
>>>
>>
>>
>> May I hook in here, I never understood page-turn. What's the
>> difference to page-break?
>> This may be a language-issue.., I'd appreciate some explanation though.
>> Our docs are not very verbose about page-_turn_ ...
>
> Page turns are page breaks that force the reader to turn the pages in
> two-page layouts. That is, the page break between an odd and an even page.
>
> HTH
> Urs
>> Thanks,
>>   Harm
>

Clear now.

Thanks,
  Harm

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Re: Forcing and preventing page-turns

[Urs Liska]

Am 05.11.2016 um 22:38 schrieb Thomas Morley:
> 2016-11-05 21:26 GMT+01:00 Urs Liska :
>>
>> Am 05.11.2016 um 21:25 schrieb Urs Liska:
>>> \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.line-break-permission = ##f
>>>
>>> will prevent any automatic breaks.
>> Ah, sorry, and of course
>>
>> \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-break-permission = ##f
>> and
>> \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-turn-permission = ##f
>>
>> will do the same for page breaks and page turns.
>>
>
>
> May I hook in here, I never understood page-turn. What's the
> difference to page-break?
> This may be a language-issue.., I'd appreciate some explanation though.
> Our docs are not very verbose about page-_turn_ ...

Page turns are page breaks that force the reader to turn the pages in
two-page layouts. That is, the page break between an odd and an even page.

HTH
Urs
> Thanks,
>   Harm


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Re: Forcing and preventing page-turns

[Thomas Morley]

2016-11-05 21:26 GMT+01:00 Urs Liska :
>
>
> Am 05.11.2016 um 21:25 schrieb Urs Liska:
>> \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.line-break-permission = ##f
>>
>> will prevent any automatic breaks.
>
> Ah, sorry, and of course
>
> \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-break-permission = ##f
> and
> \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-turn-permission = ##f
>
> will do the same for page breaks and page turns.
>



May I hook in here, I never understood page-turn. What's the
difference to page-break?
This may be a language-issue.., I'd appreciate some explanation though.
Our docs are not very verbose about page-_turn_ ...

Thanks,
  Harm

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Re: Forcing and preventing page-turns

[Urs Liska]

Am 05.11.2016 um 21:25 schrieb Urs Liska:
> \override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.line-break-permission = ##f
>
> will prevent any automatic breaks.

Ah, sorry, and of course

\override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-break-permission = ##f
and
\override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.page-turn-permission = ##f

will do the same for page breaks and page turns.

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Re: Forcing and preventing page-turns

[Urs Liska]

Am 05.11.2016 um 21:20 schrieb David Sumbler:
> It always seems to be a bit hit-and-miss for me when I try to arrange
> the pagination of instrumental parts.  Reading the manual it isn't
> clear to me how I can force page turns to occur *only* at the points I
> choose.

\override Score.NonMusicalPaperColumn.line-break-permission = ##f

will prevent any automatic breaks.

>
> Also, Lilypond doesn't like ending on an even-numbered page.  How can I
> force it not to add an unnecessary extra page at the end of a part?
>  The reason is that the part in question can fit on to 12 pages.  I
> don't want it extended to 13 because that means an extra sheet of paper
> and 3 blank pages at the end of the part.

I don't know if there's a way to automatically achieve what you want,
but you can always force the actual number of pages with

\paper {
  page-count = 12
}

HTH
Urs

>
> David
>
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Forcing and preventing page-turns

[David Sumbler]

It always seems to be a bit hit-and-miss for me when I try to arrange
the pagination of instrumental parts.  Reading the manual it isn't
clear to me how I can force page turns to occur *only* at the points I
choose.

Also, Lilypond doesn't like ending on an even-numbered page.  How can I
force it not to add an unnecessary extra page at the end of a part?
 The reason is that the part in question can fit on to 12 pages.  I
don't want it extended to 13 because that means an extra sheet of paper
and 3 blank pages at the end of the part.

David

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