Re: GDP: Rhythms rewrite

[Hans Aberg]

On 8 Oct 2007, at 22:09, Graham Percival wrote:


I really don't understand what you're complaining about.


It is your project, so you do whatever you want.

But if you want more inputs, I think that at "Quick Links" at lilypond.org/web/> you should put up a link "GDP (Grand Documentation  
Project)" to . And on this latter  
page, add a short description of the project, and how comments can be  
made.


And on
  http://opihi.cs.uvic.ca/~gperciva/lilypond/Documentation/index.html
and all the GDP documents, set "Version 2.11.32 GDP", so that it is  
different from the regular documentation.


Just an input. :-)

  Hans Åberg




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Re: GDP: Rhythms rewrite

[Graham Percival]

I really don't understand what you're complaining about.


Hans Aberg wrote:
One problem is that the traffic here is so heavy, that it is hard to 
read it all.


And I went to that link, but when I click on it, it says:
  LilyPond documentation  Version 2.11.32
Nothing really that giving any hint of any GDP.

>
Now that you say it, perhaps one might guess that this LilyPond 
documentation Version 2.11.32 is not really that, but GDP. Right?


GDP stands for the Grand Documentation Project of LilyPond.  The only 
place to find the link to opihi is from one of my emails on 
lilypond-user, so everybody who goes there knows that it's part of the GDP.


 - Graham


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Re: GDP: Rhythms rewrite

[Hans Aberg]

On 8 Oct 2007, at 20:48, Graham Percival wrote:


No, because GDP _is_ the next version of the lilypond docs.
This would be only if you want people to read it before it has  
been made the official docs.


I post a link to
http://opihi.cs.uvic.ca/~gperciva/

about twice a week on this mailist.


One problem is that the traffic here is so heavy, that it is hard to  
read it all.


And I went to that link, but when I click on it, it says:
  LilyPond documentation  Version 2.11.32
Nothing really that giving any hint of any GDP.

Now that you say it, perhaps one might guess that this LilyPond  
documentation Version 2.11.32 is not really that, but GDP. Right?



Perhaps setting up a Wiki?


If you want real documentation, wikis are worse than useless.
Wikis are great for silly little facts one does not know where to  
put elsewhere.


If somebody has a real documentation addition, I will figure out  
where to put it.  If they have a small lilypond example, they add  
it to LSR.


The setup is perhaps great for the dedicated user, but a steep  
learning curve. And it is hard to find the information. A little like  
UNIX. The method I have found best, is to have it all in a single  
PDF, and in Preview (a Mac OS X PDF reader) search for certain  
keywords. The problem is really to get quickly find the information  
needed.


  Hans Åberg




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Re: GDP: Rhythms rewrite

[Graham Percival]

Hans Aberg wrote:

On 8 Oct 2007, at 20:06, Graham Percival wrote:


No, because GDP _is_ the next version of the lilypond docs.


This would be only if you want people to read it before it has been made 
the official docs.


I post a link to
http://opihi.cs.uvic.ca/~gperciva/

about twice a week on this mailist.


Perhaps setting up a Wiki?


If you want real documentation, wikis are worse than useless.


Wikis are great for silly little facts one does not know where to put 
elsewhere.


If somebody has a real documentation addition, I will figure out where 
to put it.  If they have a small lilypond example, they add it to LSR.


Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: GDP: Rhythms rewrite

[Hans Aberg]

On 8 Oct 2007, at 20:06, Graham Percival wrote:

GDP is not official yet. Editions are not affecting to the  
current docs, be stable or development. They are on a different  
branch. If you want to see
the actual state, follow the link http://git.sv.gnu.org/gitweb/? 
p=lilypond.git;a=summary and see under "heads --> lilypond/gdp"


Yes.  In particular, once GDP has progressed a bit more, it will be  
merged with the devel branch.


Thank you. I think you should put up a link on the LilyPond  
documents page. There is so much information around these days.


No, because GDP _is_ the next version of the lilypond docs.


This would be only if you want people to read it before it has been  
made the official docs.



Perhaps setting up a Wiki?


If you want real documentation, wikis are worse than useless.


Wikis are great for silly little facts one does not know where to put  
elsewhere.


  Hans Åberg




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Re: GDP: Rhythms rewrite

[Graham Percival]

Hans Aberg wrote:

On 8 Oct 2007, at 17:24, Francisco Vila wrote:
GDP is not official yet. Editions are not affecting to the current 
docs, be stable or development. They are on a different branch. If you 
want to see
the actual state, follow the link 
http://git.sv.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=lilypond.git;a=summary and see under 
"heads --> lilypond/gdp"


Yes.  In particular, once GDP has progressed a bit more, it will be 
merged with the devel branch.


Thank you. I think you should put up a link on the LilyPond documents 
page. There is so much information around these days.


No, because GDP _is_ the next version of the lilypond docs.


Perhaps setting up a Wiki?


If you want real documentation, wikis are worse than useless.

Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: GDP: Rhythms rewrite

[Hans Aberg]

On 8 Oct 2007, at 17:24, Francisco Vila wrote:


El Mon, 08 de Oct de 2007, a las 04:45:36PM +0200, Hans Aberg dijo:

On 8 Oct 2007, at 16:38, Francisco Vila wrote:


Search the list archives and read the first messages with GDP in
the subject.
GDP is for Grand Documentation Project.


Thank you. I saw that in another post. The point is that anything
only appearing in the mailing lists are not a part of the official
documentation. And knowing that some of the documents are edited,
without knowing which one or which section makes it hard to follow
for the non-expert. :-)


GDP is not official yet. Editions are not affecting to the current  
docs, be stable or development. They are on a different branch. If  
you want to see
the actual state, follow the link http://git.sv.gnu.org/gitweb/? 
p=lilypond.git;a=summary and see under "heads --> lilypond/gdp"


Thank you. I think you should put up a link on the LilyPond documents  
page. There is so much information around these days.


Perhaps setting up a Wiki?

  Hans Åberg







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Re: GDP: Rhythms rewrite

[Hans Aberg]

On 7 Oct 2007, at 21:16, Graham Percival wrote:


On 7 Oct 2007, at 01:13, Graham Percival wrote:
I've identified the following areas to work on; please add items  
or discuss them.
As for the section 6.6, the "Harvard Concise Dictionary of Music"  
calls it "expression marks", which includes tempo and dynamic  
marks, legato, staccato, bowing, articulation phrasing, use of  
piano pedals, etc.


Err... I'm discussing section 1.2 Rhythms in the GDP docs.


Yes, I am aware that it might not fit with the topic. :-)

What is GDP, then? Looking at:
  http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/
there seems nothing that can be abbreviated as such.

  Hans Åberg




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Re: GDP: Rhythms rewrite

[Miguel Lopes Santos Ramos]

> Unfortunately, that it outside the scope of this project.  This is the 
> Grand _Documentation_ Project.

Ah!
My mistake. :-)
Perhaps I can help after I finnish this piece.
I know LISP well, but this is a particularly intricate program,
very hard to understand.

See you,
Miguel


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Re: GDP: Rhythms rewrite

[Graham Percival]

Hans Aberg wrote:

On 7 Oct 2007, at 01:13, Graham Percival wrote:

I've identified the following areas to work on; please add items or 
discuss them.


As for the section 6.6, the "Harvard Concise Dictionary of Music" calls 
it "expression marks", which includes tempo and dynamic marks, legato, 
staccato, bowing, articulation phrasing, use of piano pedals, etc.


Err... I'm discussing section 1.2 Rhythms in the GDP docs.  Section 6.6 
is "Scheme procedures as properties".  You may see the GDP docs here:

http://opihi.cs.uvic.ca/~gperciva/

We will probably start discussing expressive marks in two weeks, once 
Pitches is finished and Rhythms is almost finished.


Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: GDP: Rhythms rewrite

[Graham Percival]

Miguel Lopes Santos Ramos wrote:

On 7 Oct 2007, at 01:13, Graham Percival wrote:

I've identified the following areas to work on; please add items or =20=
discuss them.


I don't know if this sort of thing is what you're asking for...

For me, the biggest problem is the one which is stated as a "Bug" in the manual
about the synchronization of grace notes (section 6.5.7 of the manual).


Unfortunately, that it outside the scope of this project.  This is the 
Grand _Documentation_ Project.  The goal of documentation is to 
accurately and clearly describe how to use the program.  I agree that 
grace note synchronization is buggy, but all I can do is document the 
bug and the workaround.


Cheers,
- Graham


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Re: GDP: Rhythms rewrite

[Miguel Lopes Santos Ramos]

> On 7 Oct 2007, at 01:13, Graham Percival wrote:
>
> I've identified the following areas to work on; please add items or =20=
> discuss them.

I don't know if this sort of thing is what you're asking for...

For me, the biggest problem is the one which is stated as a "Bug" in the manual
about the synchronization of grace notes (section 6.5.7 of the manual).

I very often write grace notes in scores with many staves (of course). In
Lilypond it often happens that I need to add "grace spacing", \grace s8 for
instance, on other voices.
This makes no sense, grace notes do not take up any time of their own, by
definition, they steal it from "real" notes, and therefore it is correctly
labeled as a "bug" in the manual.
The problem is that the proposed work-around becomes unmanageable. Suppose
you're writing an orquestral score, and have the scores for each instrument even
perhaps in separate files. One problem you already have is maintaining the
synchronization of bars, that is, make sure no bar is missing on any score. But
this is supposed to be, and Lilypond has the appropriate tools to make sure the
bars stay in synch.
This need for "grace spacing" requires you to make sure that "grace spacing"
isn't missing in any score, you, the writer, are given by the program an
additional task, which not only makes no sense in music as is also very hard to
manage correctly. Whenever you add a set of grace notes to one score near some
bar line in some cases which I cannot predict correctly, you are forced to add
corresponding spacing to every other score.

So, I don't know if this is the kind of feature that you may be going to rework,
if it isn't, it's ok...
I do think this is something which must be considered a priority due to:
- It is not easily predictable when "grace spacing" is going to be necessary.
- It is very hard to manage that all staves of a given score have been added the
necessary spacing.

Greetings,

Miguel


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Re: GDP: Rhythms rewrite

[Hans Aberg]

On 7 Oct 2007, at 01:13, Graham Percival wrote:

I've identified the following areas to work on; please add items or  
discuss them.


As for the section 6.6, the "Harvard Concise Dictionary of Music"  
calls it "expression marks", which includes tempo and dynamic marks,  
legato, staccato, bowing, articulation phrasing, use of piano pedals,  
etc.


But ornaments seem not be included in this classification. The  
article "ornaments" [loc.cit.] mentions them as various  
embellishments by additions or variations of rhythms, melody or harmony.


Not a big point, perhaps, but it may make a difference when  
searching, and the musical treatment is somewhat different, also  
notationally. Pitched ornaments may require various embellishments  
(accidentals and grace notes), and the sections on these might be  
expanded.


For example, I am wrestling with the addition of accidentals to  
pitched ornaments (\trill, etc.), and following the manual, I have  
added the macros:

  above = { \once \override Script #'script-priority = #-100 }
  below = { \once \override TextScript #'script-priority = #-100 }
Even with these, the addition of accidentals is somewhat cumbersome.

An idea that comes to my mind would if say the "{...}" could works as  
environments also in the markups. The idea is that writing

  fis{\trill^\flat}
\flat work work in the environment created by \trill, that is markup,  
and then "^" would be given local meaning as a super-positioning to  
the \trill symbol rather than to the note fis. Then the different  
accidentals could be added easily in a very compact notation. For  
example

  fis{\turn^sharp_\flat}
would be a turn with a sharp above and a flat below.

The section might be renamed to say: "Expression marks and  
ornamentation".


  Hans Åberg




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GDP: Rhythms rewrite

[Graham Percival]

I've identified the following areas to work on; please add items or 
discuss them.



- Proportional notation (introduction): delete entirely?  Where
  should we stick links to the real section?
- Time administration: rewrite, or move to somewhere else?

REWRITE
- durations (including redoing the first example)
- multi-measure rests
- grace notes
- manual beams
- general rewrites in Bars


Cheers,
- Graham


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