Re: How to increase the distance between staves?

[Richard Shann]

On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 18:26 +0200, Thomas Morley wrote:
> Am Mi., 24. Juli 2019 um 17:52 Uhr schrieb Richard Shann
> :
> > 
> > On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 12:54 +0100, Peter Toye wrote:
> > > I want to increase the distance between the staves
> > 
> > I've just been asked a similar question of denemo-d...@gnu.org and
> > looking into it I came up with the following example which has a
> > variety of \layout {} blocks with which I'm trying to influence the
> > spacing between the staffs within the staff groups and between a
> > staff
> > group and the following staff(-group). I've included examples
> > overriding StaffGrouper.xxx and VerticalAxisGroup.xxx but I can't
> > find
> > anything that affects the typeset.
> 
> You try to set
> StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing
> in StaffGroup, but the score has none.

Ah, I was imagining StaffGroup was some sort of parent of ChoirStaff,
PianoStaff etc, rather than just another context on the same level. I'm
guessing then that you can't set the spacing in some sort of parent
context so that, say, all staff groups have extra space within?


>  Try to do it in ChoirStaff.
> Doing similar in Staff will have no effect, as well Staff doesn't
> contain multible staves ...

Thanks, that's got things working for me. Thanks too to Jean Abou
Samra.

Richard


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Re: How to increase the distance between staves?

[Thomas Morley]

Am Mi., 24. Juli 2019 um 17:52 Uhr schrieb Richard Shann
:
>
> On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 12:54 +0100, Peter Toye wrote:
> > I want to increase the distance between the staves
>
> I've just been asked a similar question of denemo-d...@gnu.org and
> looking into it I came up with the following example which has a
> variety of \layout {} blocks with which I'm trying to influence the
> spacing between the staffs within the staff groups and between a staff
> group and the following staff(-group). I've included examples
> overriding StaffGrouper.xxx and VerticalAxisGroup.xxx but I can't find
> anything that affects the typeset.

You try to set
StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing
in StaffGroup, but the score has none. Try to do it in ChoirStaff.
Doing similar in Staff will have no effect, as well Staff doesn't
contain multible staves ...

Be cautious setting StaffGroup _and_ VerticalAxisGroup in
container-contexts. The latter may override the former.

See code and comments below

HTH,
  Harm

\layout {
  \context {
\ChoirStaff
\override StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing =
  #'(
 (basic-distance . 60)
 (minimum-distance . 60)
 (padding . 1)
 (stretchabilty . 0))
%% See comment below for the risk of newly setting the lis
\override StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing = #'((padding . 10))

%% Below overrides settings of StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing
%% and it newly sets the default-list of
%% VerticalAxisGroup.staff-staff-spacing
%% Better provide a full list and generally speaking:
%% recent ly-version's syntax is superior ;)
%\override VerticalAxisGroup.staff-staff-spacing = #'((padding . 10))
  }
}

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Re: How to increase the distance between staves?

[Jean ABOU SAMRA]

> Le 24 juil. 2019 à 18:03, Thomas Morley  a écrit :
> 
> Am Mi., 24. Juli 2019 um 14:26 Uhr schrieb Jean ABOU SAMRA 
> :
>> 
>> Hi Peter,
>> Any overrides you can do in StaffGrouper are related to the space between 
>> staves
>> of the _same_ system when they are grouped in StaffGroup-s or such.
> 
> Nope.
> StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing will affect spacing between
> StaffGroups in the same system, yes.
> But, \override StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing.padding _will_ staces
> of a StaffGroup.

That's right. Thanks for the correction.

> Below some large example(s). It demonstrates several possibilities,
> but still excludes others.
> User-settable spacing in LilyPond is a _very_ complex matter.
> Mostly because there are so many possibilities, from own experience I
> can say: it's not exactly easy to find the correct command(s) and/or
> their combination(s).

> Hi Thomas,
> 
> Thanks to all for this. At the moment I'm playing about with all sorts of 
> paper variables, and getting to what I'd like.

In addition to the Notation Reference, there is this Learning Manual page: 
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/learning/vertical-spacing.html 


> I've just been asked a similar question of denemo-d...@gnu.org 
>  and
> looking into it I came up with the following example which has a
> variety of \layout {} blocks with which I'm trying to influence the
> spacing between the staffs within the staff groups and between a staff
> group and the following staff(-group). I've included examples
> overriding StaffGrouper.xxx and VerticalAxisGroup.xxx but I can't find
> anything that affects the typeset.


In addition to Harm's very comprehensive anwer, your corrected snippet would be:
%
\version "2.18.2"

\layout {
  \context {
\ChoirStaff
%% This influences space between staves in the same ChoirStaff
\override StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing.minimum-distance = 25
%% and this influences the distance between ChoirStaffs.
\override StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing.minimum-distance = 25

  }
}

mus = { \repeat unfold 100 R1*4/4 }

\score {
  <<
\new ChoirStaff \with {
} <<
  \new Staff { \mus }
  \new Staff  { \mus }   
>> 
\new ChoirStaff <<
  \new Staff  { \mus }
  \new Staff  { \mus }   
>> 
  >>
}


(Don't forget that \layout { \context { \StaffGroup …  settings won't affect a 
ChoirStaff.)
Cheers,
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Re: How to increase the distance between staves?

[Peter Toye]

Hi Thomas,

Thanks to all for this. At the moment I'm playing about with all sorts of paper 
variables, and getting to what I'd like.

It's interesting: changing the ragged-bottom variables also changes the number 
of staves that LP uses to engrave the music. With them set to ##t it uses 2 
staves, ##f uses 3. No idea why!

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 5:03:07 PM, Thomas Morley wrote:

> Am Mi., 24. Juli 2019 um 14:26 Uhr schrieb Jean
> ABOU SAMRA :

>> Hi Peter,
>> Any overrides you can do in StaffGrouper are related to the space between 
>> staves
>> of the _same_ system when they are grouped in StaffGroup-s or such.

> Nope.
> StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing will affect spacing between
> StaffGroups in the same system, yes.
> But, \override
> StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing.padding _will_ staces
> of a StaffGroup.

> Below some large example(s). It demonstrates several possibilities,
> but still excludes others.
> User-settable spacing in LilyPond is a _very_ complex matter.
> Mostly because there are so many possibilities, from own experience I
> can say: it's not exactly easy to find the
> correct command(s) and/or
> their combination(s).

> HTH,
>   Harm

> \version "2.19.83"

> mus = { R1 \break R }

> staff-group =
>   <<
>   \new Staff  \mus
>   \new Staff  \mus


> 
> %% One StaffGroup per system
> 

> \bookpart {
>   \markup \rounded-box \fill-line { "One
> StaffGroup per system, default" }
>   \new StaffGroup
> \staff-group

>   \markup \rounded-box \fill-line {
>   "One StaffGroup per system, changed spacing between
> staves via StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing"
>   }
>   \new StaffGroup
> \with {
>   \override
> StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing.padding = #30
> }
> \staff-group
> }


> \bookpart {
>   \markup \rounded-box \fill-line {
>   \wordwrap-string #"One StaffGroup per
> system, changed spacing between
> StaffGroups via paper-setting of
> \"system-system-spacing.padding\""
>   }
>   \paper {
> system-system-spacing.padding = 30
>   }
>   \new StaffGroup
> \staff-group
> }

> \bookpart {
>   \markup \rounded-box \fill-line {
>   "One StaffGroup per system, distributed
> over whole page via paper-setting
> of \"ragged-last-bottom\", "
>   }
>   \paper {
> ragged-last-bottom = ##f
>   }
>   \new StaffGroup
> \staff-group
> }

> 
> %% Two StaffGroup per system
> 

> \bookpart {
>   \markup \rounded-box \fill-line {
>   \wordwrap-string #"Two StaffGroup per
> system, changed spacing between
> the two StaffGroups via
> StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing"
>   }
>   <<
> \new StaffGroup
>   \with {
> \override
> StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing.padding = 30
>   }
>   \staff-group
> \new StaffGroup
>   \staff-group

> }

> \bookpart {
>   \markup \rounded-box \fill-line {
>   \wordwrap-string #"Two StaffGroups per
> system, distributed over whole page
> via paper-setting of \"ragged-last-bottom\",
> and several spacing-variables
> with stretchability set to a high value in
> order to give LilyPond full freedom
> to space as she likes."
>   }
>   \paper {
> ragged-last-bottom = ##f
> system-system-spacing.stretchability = 1000
> markup-system-spacing.stretchability = 1000
> last-bottom-spacing.stretchability = 1000
>   }
>   <<
> \new StaffGroup
>   \with {
> \override
> StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing.stretchability = 1000
> \override
> StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing.stretchability = 1000
>   }
>   \staff-group
> \new StaffGroup
>   \with {
> \override
> StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing.stretchability = 1000
>   }
>   \staff-group

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Re: How to increase the distance between staves?

[Thomas Morley]

Am Mi., 24. Juli 2019 um 14:26 Uhr schrieb Jean ABOU SAMRA :
>
> Hi Peter,
> Any overrides you can do in StaffGrouper are related to the space between 
> staves
> of the _same_ system when they are grouped in StaffGroup-s or such.

Nope.
StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing will affect spacing between
StaffGroups in the same system, yes.
But, \override StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing.padding _will_ staces
of a StaffGroup.

Below some large example(s). It demonstrates several possibilities,
but still excludes others.
User-settable spacing in LilyPond is a _very_ complex matter.
Mostly because there are so many possibilities, from own experience I
can say: it's not exactly easy to find the correct command(s) and/or
their combination(s).

HTH,
  Harm

\version "2.19.83"

mus = { R1 \break R }

staff-group =
  <<
  \new Staff  \mus
  \new Staff  \mus
  >>


%% One StaffGroup per system


\bookpart {
  \markup \rounded-box \fill-line { "One StaffGroup per system, default" }
  \new StaffGroup
\staff-group

  \markup \rounded-box \fill-line {
  "One StaffGroup per system, changed spacing between
staves via StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing"
  }
  \new StaffGroup
\with {
  \override StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing.padding = #30
}
\staff-group
}


\bookpart {
  \markup \rounded-box \fill-line {
  \wordwrap-string #"One StaffGroup per system, changed spacing between
StaffGroups via paper-setting of \"system-system-spacing.padding\""
  }
  \paper {
system-system-spacing.padding = 30
  }
  \new StaffGroup
\staff-group
}

\bookpart {
  \markup \rounded-box \fill-line {
  "One StaffGroup per system, distributed over whole page via paper-setting
of \"ragged-last-bottom\", "
  }
  \paper {
ragged-last-bottom = ##f
  }
  \new StaffGroup
\staff-group
}


%% Two StaffGroup per system


\bookpart {
  \markup \rounded-box \fill-line {
  \wordwrap-string #"Two StaffGroup per system, changed spacing between
the two StaffGroups via StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing"
  }
  <<
\new StaffGroup
  \with {
\override StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing.padding = 30
  }
  \staff-group
\new StaffGroup
  \staff-group
  >>
}

\bookpart {
  \markup \rounded-box \fill-line {
  \wordwrap-string #"Two StaffGroups per system, distributed over whole page
via paper-setting of \"ragged-last-bottom\", and several spacing-variables
with stretchability set to a high value in order to give LilyPond full freedom
to space as she likes."
  }
  \paper {
ragged-last-bottom = ##f
system-system-spacing.stretchability = 1000
markup-system-spacing.stretchability = 1000
last-bottom-spacing.stretchability = 1000
  }
  <<
\new StaffGroup
  \with {
\override StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing.stretchability = 1000
\override StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing.stretchability = 1000
  }
  \staff-group
\new StaffGroup
  \with {
\override StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing.stretchability = 1000
  }
  \staff-group
  >>
}

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Re: How to increase the distance between staves?

[Peter Toye]

Hi Jean,

Thanks. I found you also have to set ragged-bottom to ##f as well.

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Wednesday, July 24, 2019, 1:25:45 PM, Jean ABOU SAMRA wrote:


Hi Peter,
Any overrides you can do in StaffGrouper are related to the space between staves
of the _same_ system when they are grouped in StaffGroup-s or such. They have
nothing to do with the space _between_ different systems. To influence that, you
need \paper variables as described in
lilypond.org/doc/latest/Documentation/notation/flexible-vertical-spacing-paper-variables.html

For example:

\paper {
  system-system-spacing.basic-distance = 30
}


Althought in your case, if you just want the score to fit the whole page, you 
may just need

\paper {
  ragged-last-bottom = ##f
}

which will cause the score to fit the entire page
(lilypond.org/doc/latest/Documentation/notation/fixed-vertical-spacing-paper-variables.html).

Regards,
Jean Abou Samra.


Le 24 juil. 2019 à 13:54, Peter Toye  a écrit :

How to increase the distance between staves? 
I want to increase the distance between the staves in a short 1-page piece. 
I've tried the following (culled from the notation reference), but nothing 
happens.
 
\layout {
  \context {
\StaffGroup
\override StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing.basic-distance = #30
\override StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing.minimum-distance = #30
  }
}

What am I missing, please?

Regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com
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Re: How to increase the distance between staves?

[Richard Shann]

On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 12:54 +0100, Peter Toye wrote:
> I want to increase the distance between the staves 

I've just been asked a similar question of denemo-d...@gnu.org and
looking into it I came up with the following example which has a
variety of \layout {} blocks with which I'm trying to influence the
spacing between the staffs within the staff groups and between a staff
group and the following staff(-group). I've included examples
overriding StaffGrouper.xxx and VerticalAxisGroup.xxx but I can't find
anything that affects the typeset.

8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8>

\version "2.18.0"

\layout {
\context {
\StaffGroup  \override StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing = #'(
   (basic-distance . 60)
   (minimum-distance . 60)
   (padding . 1)
   (stretchabilty . 0))
\override VerticalAxisGroup #'default-staff-staff-spacing   
#'basic-distance = #100
}
}
\layout {
\context {
\Staff  \override StaffGrouper.staff-staff-spacing = #'(
   (basic-distance . 60)
   (minimum-distance . 60)
   (padding . 1)
   (stretchabilty . 0))
\override VerticalAxisGroup #'default-staff-staff-spacing   
#'basic-distance = #100
}
}
mus = { \repeat unfold 100 R1*4/4 }

\score {
<<
  
 \new ChoirStaff <<
\new Staff  { \mus }
\new Staff  { \mus }   
 >> 
 \new ChoirStaff <<
\new Staff  { \mus }
\new Staff  { \mus }   
 >> 
>>
   }

8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8>

The reference http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/flex
ible-vertical-spacing-within-systems#within_002dsystem-spacing-
properties
doesn't show fully working examples and I can't find anything in the
LilyPond Snippet Repository to cover this either.

I have got other approaches working, but I would like to understand why
the above does not...

Richard


> in a short 1-page piece. I've tried the following (culled from the
> notation reference), but nothing happens.
>  
> \layout {
>   \context {
>     \StaffGroup
>     \override StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing.basic-distance =
> #30
>     \override StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing.minimum-distance
> = #30
>   }
> }
> 
> What am I missing, please?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Peter
> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
> www.ptoye.com
> ___
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Re: How to increase the distance between staves?

[Jean ABOU SAMRA]

Hi Peter,
Any overrides you can do in StaffGrouper are related to the space between staves
of the _same_ system when they are grouped in StaffGroup-s or such. They have
nothing to do with the space _between_ different systems. To influence that, you
need \paper variables as described in
lilypond.org/doc/latest/Documentation/notation/flexible-vertical-spacing-paper-variables.html
 


For example:

\paper {
  system-system-spacing.basic-distance = 30
}


Althought in your case, if you just want the score to fit the whole page, you 
may just need

\paper {
  ragged-last-bottom = ##f
}

which will cause the score to fit the entire page
(lilypond.org/doc/latest/Documentation/notation/fixed-vertical-spacing-paper-variables.html
 
).

Regards,
Jean Abou Samra.

> Le 24 juil. 2019 à 13:54, Peter Toye  a écrit :
> 
> I want to increase the distance between the staves in a short 1-page piece. 
> I've tried the following (culled from the notation reference), but nothing 
> happens.
>  
> \layout {
>   \context {
> \StaffGroup
> \override StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing.basic-distance = #30
> \override StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing.minimum-distance = #30
>   }
> }
> 
> What am I missing, please?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Peter
> mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com 
> www.ptoye.com 
> ___
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How to increase the distance between staves?

[Peter Toye]

I want to increase the distance between the staves in a short 1-page piece. 
I've tried the following (culled from the notation reference), but nothing 
happens.
 
\layout {
  \context {
\StaffGroup
\override StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing.basic-distance = #30
\override StaffGrouper.staffgroup-staff-spacing.minimum-distance = #30
  }
}

What am I missing, please?

Regards,

Peter
mailto:lilyp...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com___
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